[ebuddy]

My President had his hat handed to him in the debates last night. I know I'll take some heat for saying this because I really thought he was better prepared for this, but he got absolutely slammed in the "style" of the debate.

I disagree with Kerry's policy, but at least he's outlined a policy. I appreciated him stating clearly that we are not in Iraq to own it and wanted to hear Bush demonstrate their similiarity in stance on that as well as more substance on other points, but he just couldn't present himself. Bush did a good job of throwing John Kerry quotes back at John Kerry, but I just cringed at how Bush delivered his arguments. That said; my mind is not changed because I'm voting on my candidate's platform, not ability to debate, but EESH!!! The swing voter looking for a President found one last night and it wasn't George W. Bush.

This first debate was on foreign policy and of course Iraq in general. This was supposed to be Bush's strength. He'd better hope he's more prepared for the debates on domestic policy or he's hosed. Just a warning from Republican to Republican-GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER BUSH!!!

Quit sniveling. Quit leaning over the podium. Quit murmering; uh, uh, uh, mmmm, uh...Quit repeating yourself when the tone of the question has changed, change with it. Quit assuming people know your stance on the issues and give us INFORMATION.

I'm eating crow this morning and am man enough to admit it.

[GORDYmac]

In my opinion, Bush couldn't win last night. While on one hand, I faulted him for not responding more clearly to some of Kerry's attacks, on the other hand, I hated seeing him on the defensive so much. It reminded me of his dad's first debate with Clinton. In that debate, the only thing Bush Sr. could attack on was character. Bush Jr. tried that too, with similar results. Kerry, I must admit, was very clear last night. He made Bush look tired, defensive, and unprepared.

I like Bush, but I wasn't proud of his performance last night, at all.

[djohnson]

I am still waiting to hear Kerry's plan in Iraq.

[Captain Obvious]

Why start a new thread?

Debates don't matter anymore because they aren't really debates.
It will matter even less in this election.

Further proof:
Gallup has asked the question about who did a better job in the debate in five previous elections, and in four of them the candidate who "won" the first debate did not win the election in November.

[Logic]

Originally posted by djohnson:
I am still waiting to hear Kerry's plan in Iraq.

Took a whole 10 seconds to find it.

Here you go: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/nati...rity/iraq.html

[GORDYmac]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Why start a new thread?

The other one is a bit long in the tooth, don't you think? I mean, 8 pages at my last count. I think it's 'obvious'.

[ebuddy]

That's a good question Captain;
I started a new thread because I was probably the most passionate and optimistic about how Bush would do last night. I was probably his biggest cheerleader and really believed this should have and could have been a "Kerry-campaign-busting" performance. Bush had all kinds of advantages going in just on substance alone, but couldn't clearly present any of it. I'm talkin' merely about the swing voter here. I'm confident Bush will win the election, but I look forward to these debates to hear substantive banter regarding our intentions in Iraq. I wanted to hear something I thought would appeal to one who has not made up their mind. I heard nothing, but sniveling and murmering. Trust me on this, I want Bush to win, but I also want INFORMATION. Kerry fought Kerry's fight. Bush just tried to block punches and ended up with a black eye IMHO.

I guess I'm writing this with the secret and very naive hope that someone from his camp is looking for opinions and finds them here. He needs to change his posture. He needs to be more prepared or less actually I can't tell which. Part of me thinks he simply had too much to say going in and was overwhelmed and unable to draw from any of it effectively.

Kerry's plans are wrong for America. This is not rocket-science. Hell, we here on MacNN can debate both these guys off a cliff. I'm a blue-collar shlep living in the midwest with two total semesters of college education. I've not governed the largest state in the country. I've not attained a degree from Yale. I've not managed oil companies and baseball teams. I've managed my family and that is it. Suffice it to say, I expected more and got less. Much less. I felt I owed those who I promised would be eating crow this morning that in fact, I'm eating a little of my own.

[Ratspittle]

Whoa...careful eBuddy, your starting to sound like a <soft whisper>liberal</>
You are deviating from the party line and thinking for yourself.....bad republican!
You are supposed to say something like " Dubya was godlike in his disassembly of Kerry-spliffdaddy"

seriously though, thanks for showing that you are an independent thinker. Not that you care, but my respect for you just went up a few notches.

[constrictor]

Originally posted by Ratspittle:
Whoa...careful eBuddy, your starting to sound like a <soft whisper>liberal</>
You are deviating from the party line and thinking for yourself.....bad republican!
You are supposed to say something like " Dubya was godlike in his disassembly of Kerry-spliffdaddy"

seriously though, thanks for showing that you are an independent thinker. Not that you care, but my respect for you just went up a few notches.

Actually, Ratspittle, I believe the party line is "Dubya is God." Or Jesus Christ, who I've heard is the same thing as God, if you follow the sacred rules of the Triumvirate, or the Triplicate, or the Trifecta...whatever it's called.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
I guess I'm writing this with the secret and very naive hope that someone from his camp is looking for opinions and finds them here. He needs to change his posture. He needs to be more prepared or less actually I can't tell which. Part of me thinks he simply had too much to say going in and was overwhelmed and unable to draw from any of it effectively.

I only saw the last third of the debate and felt your assessment about
him "not being able to draw effectively" from any of his prepared material
was spot on from what I saw. He seemed to be struggling to find the right
things to say.

But he made good points about Russia--Kerry kinda just blathered on about
that--and his closing was much better presented than Kerry's. From watching
the final third of the debate I would give the edge to Kerry, but not by much.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by constrictor:
Actually, Ratspittle, I believe the party line is "Dubya is God." Or Jesus Christ, who I've heard is the same thing as God, if you follow the sacred rules of the Triumvirate, or the Triplicate, or the Trifecta...whatever it's called.

Wow, you need God.

[Ratspittle]

Originally posted by constrictor:
Actually, Ratspittle, I believe the party line is "Dubya is God." Or Jesus Christ, who I've heard is the same thing as God, if you follow the sacred rules of the Triumvirate, or the Triplicate, or the Trifecta...whatever it's called.

thats kinda funny because ...people close to the pope claim that amid these concerns, the pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations

[ebuddy]

It's Trinity Constrictor. Is there a particular reason why you would belittle Christianity in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with religion?

God the Father (author/creator), God the Son (fellowship w/ man), and God the Holy Spirit. (our conscience, our moral absolute, and Father within us and througout us)

Honestly, you may believe in Convolution...err...Revolution...uh...Duhwin or whatever, but I'm not going to go out of my way to belittle ANY dogma or religion.

[ebuddy]

Funny that Ratspittle. There are some that believe the successor to the current pontiff just might be the one spoke of in Revelations.

[Ratspittle]

eBuddy, we'll just have to wait and see about that one. The fuse in my crystal ball burned out and I lost the ability to see the future (at least until after I make a trip to home depot)

[itai195]

eBuddy, I think that's an honest assessment and thank you for it. I'm not sure how much sway the debate will have, and I respect people who just disagree with Kerry's policy. But he did a great job last night at defending his character and finally taking charge and putting the president on the defensive.

[Ratspittle]

i really did not mean to derail the thread by bringing religion into it...I was simply trying to emphasize(sp?) the fact that unlike some folks who see GW as "godlike", I appreciated the fact that you looked at the debate with an open mind. If Bush would have slammed Kerry in the debate, I would have grudgingly admitted that as well, but I guess that truth is generally the weakness of we liberals, and I was glad to see some objectivity on your side of the fence. Thanks again.

[MindFad]

Just you wait until the domestic policy debates�those are gonna be great.

[zigzag]

It's speaks well of you to give such a frank assessment. Hell, I thought Bush did better than you did, and I'm not even planning to vote for him.

You pinpointed the very thing that troubles me about Bush: everyone complains about Kerry's lack of a plan, but apart from "stay the course," no one can tell me what Bush's is, and he's already in charge. You feel that he has one but failed to adequately articulate it; I don't feel that he really has one. He's basically playing it by ear, as Kerry will have to do if he's elected. Either candidate will have his work cut out for him.

[Ratspittle]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Either candidate will have his work cut out for him.

amen bother

[RAILhead]

1) If this was a High School Debate Team competition and the debaters were scored "winner" or "loser" on the debate itself -- not the content -- I think Kerry would have the upper hand in that he had a more polished delivery than Bush.

2) Thankfully, this isn't a High School Debate Team competition so the content does matter, and in that, Bush is still the winner to me.

3) Kerry had a good talk, but I honestly felt the content was void. "I'll do better" and "I'd do it better" -- what does that mean? HOW would you do it better? I guess with weighing everything with his Global Microscope.

That said, to "win" a debate is only part of it: I'm still for Bush's tax plans, stance on gay marriage, abortion, Supreme Court, health care, security, etc., and no matter how well Kerry can deliver his positions, they'll never jibe with mine. Unfortunately, there are actually some numbskull people in this country that will vote for the perceived "winner" rather than really look at the issues.

Nevertheless, I'm confident that Kerry's policies will be his ruin when it comes time to cast votes in November.

Maury

[Ratspittle]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
1) If this was a High School Debate Team competition and the debaters were scored "winner" or "loser" on the debate itself -- not the content -- I think Kerry would have the upper hand in that he had a more polished delivery than Bush.

2) Thankfully, this isn't a High School Debate Team competition so the content does matter, and in that, Bush is still the winner to me.

3) Kerry had a good talk, but I honestly felt the content was void. "I'll do better" and "I'd do it better" -- what does that mean? HOW would you do it better? I guess with weighing everything with his Global Microscope.

That said, to "win" a debate is only part of it: I'm still for Bush's tax plans, stance on gay marriage, abortion, Supreme Court, health care, security, etc., and no matter how well Kerry can deliver his positions, they'll never jibe with mine. Unfortunately, there are actually some numbskull people in this country that will vote for the perceived "winner" rather than really look at the issues.

Nevertheless, I'm confident that Kerry's policies will be his ruin when it comes time to cast votes in November.

Maury

Recyled answer....[copy, paste from the presidential debates forum] well at least you know what you stand for...I am against the tax plan (lets cut taxes[e.g. funding] and increase the government payroll), for gay marriage (whose business is it to tell other people what to do with their own dicks/vaginas anyway, can you say "insecurity"), current supreme court support essentially means you are against abortion (so dont have/ pay for one) and gay marriage. Health care suppot under W has been zilch, so I guess you are for the mentality that "only the rich survive", and as far as security, how about a guy who has been in action (voluntarily I might add) and is being endorsed by no less than eight major US military commanders.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Ratspittle:
Recyled answer....[copy, paste from the presidential debates forum] well at least you know what you stand for...I am against the tax plan (lets cut taxes[e.g. funding] and increase the government payroll), for gay marriage (whose business is it to tell other people what to do with their own dicks/vaginas anyway, can you say "insecurity"), current supreme court support essentially means you are against abortion (so dont have/ pay for one) and gay marriage. Health care suppot under W has been zilch, so I guess you are for the mentality that "only the rich survive", and as far as security, how about a guy who has been in action (voluntarily I might add) and is being endorsed by no less than eight major US military commanders.

Huh, I didn't realize we weren't allowed to copy/paste our own comments. My bad your majesty.

Once again, you attempt to derail -- we're talking about our opinions of the debate, not the policies specifically, and my comments stand: Kerry did better on the debates, but no matter how well he did, the content of his comments won't jibe with me as a voter.

Maury

[Ratspittle]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Huh, I didn't realize we weren't allowed to copy/paste our own comments. My bad your majesty.

Once again, you attempt to derail -- we're talking about our opinions of the debate, not the policies specifically, and my comments stand: Kerry did better on the debates, but no matter how well he did, the content of his comments won't jibe with me as a voter.

Maury

Maury, how is this derailing? you stated your positions, I stated mine (+ justifications). Fair enough, you don't agree with his policies....I do. That is what makes this country great, discussions and disagreement. I did not originally bring up the policies, that ball was in your court, I simply responded. As far as the copy/paste goes...I only pointed out that you used this exact same post in a different (somewhat) topic. read my last post carefully, I did not say you weren't allowed...and BTW ratspittle will do, you do not have to call me your majesty...although I am truly majestic.

[Jansar]

Kerry DID NOT do better on the debates! What the **** is everyone talking about?

a) he AGREED with Bush (head nods)
b) he tried to dodge just about every question (he DOS NOT have a plan)
c) every one of his points was embarrassingly refuted
d) he clearly showed that he doesn't know how to run a country
e) he took jabs at our troops (totally un-American)
f) keeps talking about his "military service"
g) he clearly lied most of the time
h) he resorted to PERSONAL ATTACKS (did you ever hear Bush say anything mean about Kerry? didn't think so)

What's this about him being a better speaker? He's a MORON. Like I said before, Kerry had his ass handed to him. It doesn't take an idiot to find that out (if you were watching the debate, that is).

*breathes*

[MindFad]

You have a link to this special version of the debate you watched?

[Ratspittle]

Okay Jansar...CALM DOWN!!! the world will not end if bush loses a debate.
ummmmm, uhhh, ummmmm, the enemy attacked us!

come on, go ahead and say it...."bush was godlike" [insert angel chorus]

[Jansar]

Originally posted by MindFad:
You have a link to this special version of the debate you watched?

I don't know if it's online yet, but it was on TV last night. I don't think there was a special version, though.

[Buckaroo]

Originally posted by Jansar:
Kerry DID NOT do better on the debates! What the **** is everyone talking about?

a) he AGREED with Bush (head nods)
b) he tried to dodge just about every question (he DOS NOT have a plan)
c) every one of his points was embarrassingly refuted
d) he clearly showed that he doesn't know how to run a country
e) he took jabs at our troops (totally un-American)
f) keeps talking about his "military service"
g) he clearly lied most of the time
h) he resorted to PERSONAL ATTACKS (did you ever hear Bush say anything mean about Kerry? didn't think so)

What's this about him being a better speaker? He's a MORON. Like I said before, Kerry had his ass handed to him. It doesn't take an idiot to find that out (if you were watching the debate, that is).

*breathes*

I agree, personally I belieeve Kerry was void of any real plan.



I found this intresting piece of info:

LOCKHART: DEBATE CONSENSUS A 'DRAW'

Unbeknownst to Kerry adviser Mike McCurry, a C-SPAN camera quietly followed McCurry as he found Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart on Spin Alley floor and asked him his impression of the debate. Lockhart candidly said to McCurry , �Basically, the overall is that the thing was a draw.�


So, if the Democrats think it was a draw at best. Their only hope is to claim he won, and cloud the real issues with claims that he can do it better when in fact Kerry ain't got a clue.

[Jansar]

Originally posted by Ratspittle:
Okay Jansar...CALM DOWN!!! the world will not end if bush loses a debate.
ummmmm, uhhh, ummmmm, the enemy attacked us!

come on, go ahead and say it...."bush was godlike"

Okay, I'll say it...

"YOU ARE ING WEIRD!"

[Logic]

Originally posted by Jansar:
Kerry DID NOT do better on the debates! What the **** is everyone talking about?

a) he AGREED with Bush (head nods)
b) he tried to dodge just about every question (he DOS NOT have a plan)
c) every one of his points was embarrassingly refuted
d) he clearly showed that he doesn't know how to run a country
e) he took jabs at our troops (totally un-American)
f) keeps talking about his "military service"
g) he clearly lied most of the time
h) he resorted to PERSONAL ATTACKS (did you ever hear Bush say anything mean about Kerry? didn't think so)

What's this about him being a better speaker? He's a MORON. Like I said before, Kerry had his ass handed to him. It doesn't take an idiot to find that out (if you were watching the debate, that is).

*breathes*

Keep it up! Great satire!!

[Solomon Grundy]

Originally posted by Jansar:
Kerry DID NOT do better on the debates! What the **** is everyone talking about?

a) he AGREED with Bush (head nods)
b) he tried to dodge just about every question (he DOS NOT have a plan)
c) every one of his points was embarrassingly refuted
d) he clearly showed that he doesn't know how to run a country
e) he took jabs at our troops (totally un-American)
f) keeps talking about his "military service"
g) he clearly lied most of the time
h) he resorted to PERSONAL ATTACKS (did you ever hear Bush say anything mean about Kerry? didn't think so)

What's this about him being a better speaker? He's a MORON. Like I said before, Kerry had his ass handed to him. It doesn't take an idiot to find that out (if you were watching the debate, that is).

*breathes*

I would love to see some examples from the transcripts supporting these positions.

[Ratspittle]

Originally posted by Jansar:
Okay, I'll say it...

"YOU ARE ING WEIRD!"

you know it baby! just ask my kids.
that's all you have to say?!? weird-delusional, delusional-weird. I'll take weird anyday

[OldManMac]

Originally posted by Jansar:
I don't know if it's online yet, but it was on TV last night. I don't think there was a special version, though.

LOL!

Have to hand it to you, eBuddy. Not many people, especially around here, will deviate from their blind allegiance.

[finboy]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
My President had his hat handed to him in the debates last night. I know I'll take some heat for saying this because I really thought he was better prepared for this, but he got absolutely slammed in the "style" of the debate.

The "style" of the debate was to have leading questions thrown at him (Mr. President, do you still beat your wife?) and to have the opponent throw 2 minutes of unqualified allegations and open accusations his way with 90 seconds to respond.

If that's what you mean by "style", then I follow your reasoning.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Logic:
Took a whole 10 seconds to find it.

THe point is we want to hear Kerry talk about details of his plan, not be assigned homework and have to read through web pages of fluff.

We want to see if Kerry is in command of the issue, not if he can simply say "read this... go to this website of that website and read it... that's what I'll do".

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by KarlG:
Have to hand it to you, eBuddy. Not many people, especially around here, will deviate from their blind allegiance.

That's crap. I know myself, Simey, and others have all stated that Kerry did a good job presenting himself during the debate.

[Logic]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
THe point is we want to hear Kerry talk about details of his plan, not be assigned homework and have to read through web pages of fluff.

We want to see if Kerry is in command of the issue, not if he can simply say "read this... go to this website of that website and read it... that's what I'll do".

So you expected him to be able to give the details of his plans in two minutes?

And how much did Bush go into detail on his plans yesterday?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Logic:
So you expected him to be able to give the details of his plans in two minutes?

And how much did Bush go into detail on his plans yesterday?

We know Bush's plan.

Absolutely I wanted to hear at least a few, or all, of his 4 points on Iraq. He was asked 2 different times to briefly describe his plan, and both times he said "go to my website".

90 seconds is more than enough time to briefly decribe an overview of his plan. Instead, all he kept saying is on is "This President is wrong, and I can do better. I have a plan."

[Busemann]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
We know Bush's plan.

Absolutely I wanted to hear at least a few, or all, of his 4 points on Iraq. He was asked 2 different times to briefly describe his plan, and both times he said "go to my website".

90 seconds is more than enough time to briefly decribe an overview of his plan. Instead, all he kept saying is on is "This President is wrong, and I can do better. I have a plan."

He did briefly outline his plans for Iraq during the debate; broader international support, train Iraqis, more money towards reconstruction etc.

[Logic]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
We know Bush's plan.

Absolutely I wanted to hear at least a few, or all, of his 4 points on Iraq. He was asked 2 different times to briefly describe his plan, and both times he said "go to my website".

90 seconds is more than enough time to briefly decribe an overview of his plan. Instead, all he kept saying is on is "This President is wrong, and I can do better. I have a plan."

Since you obviously didn't listen to Kerry I'll offer you some of the transcript:

I have a better plan for homeland security. I have a better plan to be able to fight the war on terror by strengthening our military, strengthening our intelligence, by going after the financing more authoritatively, by doing what we need to do to rebuild the alliances, by reaching out to the Muslim world, which the president has almost not done, and beginning to isolate the radical Islamic Muslims, not have them isolate the United States of America.

I know I can do a better job in Iraq. I have a plan to have a summit with all of the allies, something this president has not yet achieved, not yet been able to do to bring people to the table.

We can do a better job of training the Iraqi forces to defend themselves, and I know that we can do a better job of preparing for elections.

...............................

As president, what would you do, specifically, in addition to or differently to increase the homeland security of the United States than what President Bush is doing?

KERRY: Jim, let me tell you exactly what I'll do. And there are a long list of thing. First of all, what kind of mixed message does it send when you have $500 million going over to Iraq to put police officers in the streets of Iraq, and the president is cutting the COPS program in America?

What kind of message does it send to be sending money to open firehouses in Iraq, but we're shutting firehouses who are the first- responders here in America.

The president hasn't put one nickel, not one nickel into the effort to fix some of our tunnels and bridges and most exposed subway systems. That's why they had to close down the subway in New York when the Republican Convention was there. We hadn't done the work that ought to be done.

The president -- 95 percent of the containers that come into the ports, right here in Florida, are not inspected. Civilians get onto aircraft, and their luggage is X-rayed, but the cargo hold is not X- rayed.

Does that make you feel safer in America?

This president thought it was more important to give the wealthiest people in America a tax cut rather than invest in homeland security. Those aren't my values. I believe in protecting America first.

And long before President Bush and I get a tax cut -- and that's who gets it -- long before we do, I'm going to invest in homeland security and I'm going to make sure we're not cutting COPS programs in America and we're fully staffed in our firehouses and that we protect the nuclear and chemical plants.

The president also unfortunately gave in to the chemical industry, which didn't want to do some of the things necessary to strengthen our chemical plant exposure.

And there's an enormous undone job to protect the loose nuclear materials in the world that are able to get to terrorists. That's a whole other subject, but I see we still have a little bit more time.

Let me just quickly say, at the current pace, the president will not secure the loose material in the Soviet Union -- former Soviet Union for 13 years. I'm going to do it in four years. And we're going to keep it out of the hands of terrorists.

.................

Now, we have a choice here. I've laid out a plan by which I think we can be successful in Iraq: with a summit, by doing better training, faster, by cutting -- by doing what we need to do with respect to the U.N. and the elections.


............................

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Logic:
Since you obviously didn't listen to Kerry I'll offer you some of the transcript:

No need to be rude because my opinions differ.

Your quotes prove my point exactly..."I have a plan...we can do better...I have a plan...we can do better...I'll secure all nuclear materials..."

How John? What's the plan?

Oh yeah, Kerry lied about the subways in NYC being closed during the RNC convention.

During Thursday night's 90-minute presidential debate, there was little mention of New York, but there was one snippet from Senator John Kerry that may have gotten the attention of New Yorkers.

"The president hasn't put one nickel, not one nickel, into the effort to fix some of our tunnels and bridges and most exposed subway systems," said Kerry. "That's why they had to close down the subway in New York when the Republican Convention was there."

It would have been a much more compelling argument had Kerry been right. As New Yorkers know, the city's subways stayed open during the Republican Convention.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
That's crap. I know myself, Simey, and others have all stated that Kerry did a good job presenting himself during the debate.

Too true. This is one of the very few political threads where the term
"fair and balanced" actually is appropriate. Kudos to everyone for being
honest with themselves, and with us, for how they perceived the debate.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Busemann:
He did briefly outline his plans for Iraq during the debate; broader international support, train Iraqis, more money towards reconstruction etc.

Yup - broader international support for the wrong war by our "coerced and bribed" allies. That'll work.

Train Iraqis - maybe Kerry should pay attention to what's going on in Iraq. We are already training Iraqis.

More money towards reconstruction??? Then why the heck do Kerry and his Democratic cohorts stifle reconstruction appropriation proposals in Congress?

[itai195]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
How John? What's the plan?

Oh yeah, Kerry lied about the subways in NYC being closed during the RNC convention.

Switching gears?

I think what Logic posted is about as substantive a description of his plans as he had time for. Now, where did Bush describe his plans, because I'm unaware of them? And where did he explain why he thought Kerry's plan would fail?

As far as training Iraqis goes -- I was somewhat surprised that Kerry didn't call out Bush for saying there are 100,000 fully trained Iraqi police/soldiers.

[Solomon Grundy]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
No need to be rude because my opinions differ.

Your quotes prove my point exactly..."I have a plan...we can do better...I have a plan...we can do better...I'll secure all nuclear materials..."

How John? What's the plan?

Oh yeah, Kerry lied about the subways in NYC being closed during the RNC convention.

Read the stuff after the words "I have a plan" as well as the words after "we can do better"

[Logic]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
No need to be rude because my opinions differ.

Your quotes prove my point exactly..."I have a plan...we can do better...I have a plan...we can do better...I'll secure all nuclear materials..."

How John? What's the plan?

Oh yeah, Kerry lied about the subways in NYC being closed during the RNC convention.

So not only did you not listen but you refuse to read the excerpts I posted above.......

How should he in two minutes go into more detail?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by itai195:
Switching gears?

Logic included that incorrect quote from Kerry in his post. SInce when is pointing out a lie "switching gears"?

I think what Logic posted is about as substantive a description of his plans as he had time for. Now, where did Bush describe his plans, because I'm unaware of them? And where did he explain why he thought Kerry's plan would fail?

We have known Bush's plan for well over a year. Well, at least those of us who actually pay attention.

Kerry's decription is no different than any other description he's offered in the past. "I have a plan... we can do better". So in 90 seconds, all Kerry could describe of his so-called plans is to solicit help from more "coerced and bribed" allies, train Iraqis, and spend more on reconstruction.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Solomon Grundy:
Read the stuff after the words "I have a plan" as well as the words after "we can do better"

There is nothing substantive there. He'll do a better job at this, and a better job at that, and he has a plan for this, and he'll protect America, and he'll do better at this.

Basically, he took all the elements of Bush's plan, and simply stated that he has a plan to do better at each element.

[itai195]

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Logic included that incorrect quote from Kerry in his post. SInce when is pointing out a lie "switching gears"?

Nothing wrong with it. I was just surprised by the way it came across.

We have known Bush's plan for well over a year. Well, at least those of us who actually pay attention.

That means he doesn't have to describe it at the debate? Kerry has decribed his at campaign stops and on his web site. Well, a least those of us who actually pay attention have heard/read it

The fact of the matter is both plans are essentially the same. So I want to know why Bush thinks Kerry's plan won't work, and I think it's also fair to ask why Kerry thinks he can do better (though in respect to getting more international assistance, it's pretty obvious why).