[businezguy]

I've been thinking...why is it that people will accuse others of being a "latent homosexual" as an insult. This is usually an insult somebody would use if they felt a person was bigoted against homosexuals. Essentually, the person who calls gays "fags" then has his sexuality questioned by those who purport to defend gays, or be gay themselves. Why is this an accusation to begin with. If homosexuality isn't so inherently evil, and if it is rather a natural segment of the human populus, why would being a homosexual who hides their homosexuality be considered an insult, or inherently wrong.

If one were a homosexual, and they hid it, and they were not comfortable with it, why would this be so wrong? Where's the harm in that?

The reason I'm asking this is I've thought about it a lot, and it relates to who I am, and how I feel about myself. For the first time.....I'll admit, I have had experiences with guys. In fact, I find other guys to be attractive--more like a beautiful work of art. I also have interests in ladies too, but I have a much stronger preference to men. While that doesn't exactly make me a full homosexual, it would certainly qualify me as a man with homosexual tendencies.

With that said, I'm not entirely comfortable with it. Why? I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of it. I just find I can't relate to homosexuality, as it is perceived. The gay parades, the flaunting of homosexuality, the political fight, the fight for the minds and hearts of Americans. A gay activist might say I am sitting on the fence and despite my indifference, if not intolerance to the gay agenda, I am in fact benefiting from their work. I'd respond to this by pointing out I never asked for any favors, and I am not the type of person to impose my views on others.

With that said, I just can't relate to the whole lifestyle. I can see why there is a segment of the population, aside from religious people, who find gays to be disgusting. The whole gay culture is out of control. I don't want to argue this point, it isn't the point I'm trying to make.

Obviously, I have several points, and several questions....but the crux of my thinking is this: Why am I gay, and yet I don't feel gay? Why can I not relate to the stereotypical gay? Why so I sometimes feel, through an affirmation of my intellect, the feeling that sometimes I wish I could distance myself from the gay community, because they don't define me,and I don't fit into that stereotypical trap? Why would somebody hiding their sexuality on purpose, and in fact not comfortable with being gay, somehow be doingsomething inherently wrong and bigoted?

Sorry for all of the thoughts and questions. I just wanted to open up a discussion on homosexuality. I hope this thread can be kept civilized. I don't mean to offend anybody.I just want to discuss.

[- - e r i k - -]

Why should you relate to the stereotypical gay? I sure as hell don't relate to the stereotypical male.

You don't have to be all-out-there-crazy-creative-kooky gay if that's not who you are. There are as many different types of homosexuals as there are heterosexuals.

Be who you ARE, not how you feel you should be to live up to an image.

[Meneldil]

Originally posted by businezguy:


...

With that said, I'm not entirely comfortable with it. Why? I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of it. I just find I can't relate to homosexuality, as it is perceived. The gay parades, the flaunting of homosexuality, the political fight, the fight for the minds and hearts of Americans. A gay activist might say I am sitting on the fence and despite my indifference, if not intolerance to the gay agenda, I am in fact benefiting from their work. I'd respond to this by pointing out I never asked for any favors, and I am not the type of person to impose my views on others.

With that said, I just can't relate to the whole lifestyle. I can see why there is a segment of the population, aside from religious people, who find gays to be disgusting. The whole gay culture is out of control. I don't want to argue this point, it isn't the point I'm trying to make.

Obviously, I have several points, and several questions....but the crux of my thinking is this: Why am I gay, and yet I don't feel gay? Why can I not relate to the stereotypical gay? Why so I sometimes feel, through an affirmation of my intellect, the feeling that sometimes I wish I could distance myself from the gay community, because they don't define me,and I don't fit into that stereotypical trap? Why would somebody hiding their sexuality on purpose, and in fact not comfortable with being gay, somehow be doingsomething inherently wrong and bigoted?

Sorry for all of the thoughts and questions. I just wanted to open up a discussion on homosexuality. I hope this thread can be kept civilized. I don't mean to offend anybody.I just want to discuss.

Disclaimer: Some of the things I say may sound cliched and overused, but I've done a lot of activism stuff and thought about this issue a lot. I'm also not entirely clear on a couple things you said, so if it looks like I misunderstood, let me know.

I understand what you're talking about quite well. I'm a gay guy who doesn't fit into society's standard expectations either- so much so, that when I came out, some of my friends have thought I was joking. It's true there's a culture out there that people tend to use to represent us, but most of the gay guys I know aren't into it. The furthest that I think it's actually necessary to be out is whatever makes you comfortable - just make sure you're being honest with yourself and not taking the easy way out. If you're not responding to questions of "why don't you have a girlfriend" or " are you interested in men" truthfully, is it because you're afraid in some way, or is it because it doesn't matter or whatever? If it's the former, I'd say you probably have more to deal with, and maybe you need to be out more. If it's the latter, you're probably doing okay. Personally, about as far as I need to be out is being able to answer questions honestly - I'm past the "Out and Loud" phase, I think, and just want to be happy. There are a lot of bitter and or stupid people out there, gays included, who'll tell you you're not out enough or something similar. As long as you're being honest with yourself and you're happy, I'd say you're out enough. It's the people who aren't being honest who can be a problem - I only personally know of one person who started out frothing homophobe and turned out gay, but he fit the profile pretty well. He needed to prove he wasn't gay, and a good way to do that in the mind of teenagers is to insult (or worse) other gays.

The political aspect is a tricky one. On one hand, yeah, I don't care about the military, nor do I want to impose on others. On the other hand, I'd like some of the benefits that come with marriage, etc. I sort of feel that while we aren't as much of a community as people often think, we need to give some support. While I don't want to serve in the military, there are gay people who do. Helping each other out does make it easier for all of us, though there is more than one way to help.

Anyway, all that we all actually have in common is that we like the same sex. Obviously you're not going to relate to some people just because of that. The loud segment of the gay population seems to do it mainly in response to repression - letting off steam and all that. There was definitely a period when I felt I needed to step up and be an activist, do stuff, all that. Though I'll always be involved in activism somehow, most of that is over with. Be yourself, and don't worry about people and society telling you how to act. It only causes trouble, trust me.

[Xeo]

Just to echo, you don't have to have one thing in common with the stereotypical gay man to be gay (or bi). If you want to hide it, then do it. But if it turns you into a kiss-the-wife-and-kids-before-work-by-day and run-to-arms-of-secret-lover-by-night, then you've got a problem. There are more lives at stake than your own. Just remember that.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by businezguy:
If one were a homosexual, and they hid it, and they were not comfortable with it, why would this be so wrong? Where's the harm in that?

I'm not sure I understood that sentence correctly, but from where I'm sitting, it looks like you answered your own question before you even asked it. If you're gay, and you're hiding it, and you're not comfortable with that, that is the reason it's wrong. That you're not comfortable with it.

Like Meneldil said, if hiding it bothers/hurts you, it's wrong. If it doesn't, then it's not wrong. No one says you have to tell everyone (okay, some people do, but I don't agree with them) - although I don't think it would be healthy to hide it completely, from everybody. Basically, tell whom you want to, no more, no less.

With that said, I'm not entirely comfortable with it. Why? I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of it. I just find I can't relate to homosexuality, as it is perceived. The gay parades, the flaunting of homosexuality, the political fight, the fight for the minds and hearts of Americans.

So... what you're saying is that you're not uncomfortable with being gay per se; what you're uncomfortable with is being perceived as part of the whole flaunting, flagrant, flipping, flying, [insert word beginning with fl- here] gay lifestyle, or the political fight, or the gay activists, etc., right?

Don't worry too much about it is my advice - most gays don't identify very well with those (well, maybe most do to a certain extent identify with the political fight), and in my experience, most people don't identify you with it either just because you're gay.

Obviously, I have several points, and several questions....but the crux of my thinking is this: Why am I gay, and yet I don't feel gay? Why can I not relate to the stereotypical gay? Why do I sometimes feel, through an affirmation of my intellect, the feeling that sometimes I wish I could distance myself from the gay community, because they don't define me,and I don't fit into that stereotypical trap?

Well, I can't answer why - but I can tell you it's how a lot of gay people feel. That they wish sometimes the whole gay community and all the fl-words would just go away so they wouldn't have to be bothered by being identified with them constantly.

Why would somebody hiding their sexuality on purpose, and in fact not comfortable with being gay, somehow be doingsomething inherently wrong and bigoted?

Well, like I said above, only wrong if it's hurting them. And certainly not bigoted.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by Xeo:
Just to echo, you don't have to have one thing in common with the stereotypical gay man to be gay (or bi). If you want to hide it, then do it. But if it turns you into a kiss-the-wife-and-kids-before-work-by-day and run-to-arms-of-secret-lover-by-night, then you've got a problem. There are more lives at stake than your own. Just remember that.

Well... it does help to have the "I like guys" thing in common with them. But that's where I draw the line.

[businezguy]

I'm not sure I understood that sentence correctly, but from where I'm sitting, it looks like you answered your own question before you even asked it. If you're gay, and you're hiding it, and you're not comfortable with that, that is the reason it's wrong. That you're not comfortable with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that's just it. Maybe you could argue that it's wrong for ME to not be comfortable with it. But, how does that make it wrong. Why would being a "latent homosexual" be such a crime that it would compell others, gay or gay defenders, to hang that label on me like a sign of shame? What business of theirs is it to judge how another person treats their own homosexuality? I feel that sexuality is a somewhat private part of life. I feel it more so for myself because I wouldn't want to make a straight man uncomfortable. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Yet, it is treated like a crime or something, by many gay people and their supporters.

P.S.

How come the quote button doesn't work for me?

[mitchell_pgh]

My take on gay people:

1) It's OK to be gay
2) It's OK to be in the closet gay person
3) It's OK to be out of the closet and gay person
4) It's OK to be gay and wear a pink unitard with a red whit and blue cape
5) It's OK to be gay and look like an average Joe

6) It's never OK to force your sexual preference, political, ethnic, gender or race issues on me.

7) Being gay doesn't give you free range to say anything you wish during a conversation.

8) It's disrespectful to purposefully make others feel uncomfortable or to purposefully place them in environments where they feel uncomfortable.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by businezguy:
If one were a homosexual, and they hid it, and they were not comfortable with it, why would this be so wrong? Where's the harm in that?

It's not that they are hiding it, it's the issues regarding WHY they don't feel comfortable being open about it.

9/10 times it's because of either ridicule/shame from friends and family.

[sixz]

Gestalt

... Because it is a struggle and the more who stand up ( or come out )
the more it will be accepted and those who feel the same way will not
have to 'stay silent' or hide their desires or who they chose to love.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by businezguy:
Well, that's just it. Maybe you could argue that it's wrong for ME to not be comfortable with it. But, how does that make it wrong.

Well, that would come from my basic idea that anything that hurts anyone (even if it's oneself) is wrong and should, ideally speaking, not be happening. If it's wrong for you, it's wrong. In my opinion. That, of course, doesn't mean that I have the ultimate say in it. Ultimately, we can't really say that there is such a thing as "right" and "wrong" as concrete terms, because it will always come down to what every single person thinks is right or wrong.

Personally, I would think that doing something to hurt yourself/something that hurts yourself is wrong.

(And yes, I realise that often there isn't a right, only wrongs, and you have to choose the lesser evil, etc.)

Why would being a "latent homosexual" be such a crime that it would compell others, gay or gay defenders, to hang that label on me like a sign of shame? What business of theirs is it to judge how another person treats their own homosexuality?

It's not their business (apart perhaps from the fact that they might care about you and not want to see you hurt), and it shouldn't be such a crime that it would compell others to hang that label on you like a sign of shame. If anything, they should talk to you and see if they can't somehow help to avoid the situation that's hurting you. (Assuming they're friends of yours who care, not just random strangers)

How come the quote button doesn't work for me?

Hmm... I don't know... you can fake it with (quote) and (/quote) (substituting the ()'s for []'s of course)...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Xeo:
Just to echo, you don't have to have one thing in common with the stereotypical gay man to be gay (or bi). If you want to hide it, then do it. But if it turns you into a kiss-the-wife-and-kids-before-work-by-day and run-to-arms-of-secret-lover-by-night, then you've got a problem. There are more lives at stake than your own. Just remember that.

[Meneldil]

Originally posted by businezguy:

Well, that's just it. Maybe you could argue that it's wrong for ME to not be comfortable with it. But, how does that make it wrong. Why would being a "latent homosexual" be such a crime that it would compell others, gay or gay defenders, to hang that label on me like a sign of shame? What business of theirs is it to judge how another person treats their own homosexuality? I feel that sexuality is a somewhat private part of life. I feel it more so for myself because I wouldn't want to make a straight man uncomfortable. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Yet, it is treated like a crime or something, by many gay people and their supporters.

P.S.

How come the quote button doesn't work for me?

Dunno why it doesn't work.

I'm not saying it makes it wrong for you to be uncomfortable, and people shouldn't look upon you negatively if you're uncomfortable. I do, however, tend to think that being uncomfortable with it means that something is wrong that could be addressed - it may be related or not, but if something makes one uncomfortable, one generally wants to find a solution. I'm not clear if your discomfort is from the way others think you should be more out or if you're currently uncomfortable with having homosexual leanings in general. Neither should be cause for others to be asses, but I don't really understand wanting to be left sitting in the latter situation.

[daimoni]

.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
My take on gay people:

1) It's OK to be gay
2) It's OK to be in the closet gay person
3) It's OK to be out of the closet and gay person
4) It's OK to be gay and wear a pink unitard with a red whit and blue cape
5) It's OK to be gay and look like an average Joe

6) It's never OK to force your sexual preference, political, ethnic, gender or race issues on me.

7) Being gay doesn't give you free range to say anything you wish during a conversation.

8) It's disrespectful to purposefully make others feel uncomfortable or to purposefully place them in environments where they feel uncomfortable.

Same can be said for the Straight populace.


Chris

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by businezguy:
How come the quote button doesn't work for me?

Click the reply button on the post you want to quote.

[gerbnl]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
My take on gay people:

7) Being gay doesn't give you free range to say anything you wish during a conversation.

8) It's disrespectful to purposefully make others feel uncomfortable or to purposefully place them in environments where they feel uncomfortable.

Oh, damn... and you started out sooo well (i love pink unitards, but i'll leave the nationalistic cape for you ok?)

but, ehhh... i think your sevenest and eightest points are nonsense. (or at least: *I* percieve them as nonsense, ok?)) In discussing *any* controversial things in general one *must* make others feel unconfortable to win them over or make them take a stand. This has nothing to do with disrespectfulness.

Seven is semi-untrue, since i feel that right is already reserved for everybody. No need to suddenly deny that for fags. [disclaimer: i hate PC "gay", i prefer to be a fag, Ok?]

PS: Yes, ik know how you meant what you wrote, i didn't misunderstand you, Ok?

[tooki]

You may think you're the only man with gay tendencies (henceforth abbreviated to "gay") who doesn't fit into the gay mold, but you're not. Gays that don't stand out, well... don't stand out!

Many people are surprised when they find out I'm gay. They're used to gay people being the type of person that's so flaming you need to keep a fire extinguisher around, just in case!

Of course you see the activists (both the serious ones and the loonies), the sexpots (yeah, there are a lot of them, gay and otherwise), the super-flaming mega-queers, the leather daddies, etc. They are all noticeable. The gays that don't get into those things just tend to melt into the background.

I understand it -- I'm not a stereotypical gay, either. I mean, I'm a super-geeky, articulate, nerdy body modification nut who's into industrial/synthpop/EBM music rather than the usual club crap. Most gay guys out there don't know what to make of me!

Don't feel you're weird for being gay but not fitting the stereotype: there are lots of people out there like you, and there are lots of people out there seeking gays who aren't stereotypical gay.

tooki

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by businezguy:
II just find I can't relate to homosexuality, as it is perceived. The gay parades, the flaunting of homosexuality, the political fight, the fight for the minds and hearts of Americans. A gay activist might say I am sitting on the fence and despite my indifference, if not intolerance to the gay agenda, I am in fact benefiting from their work.

Okay, for a start, despite what some people would have you believe, there is no "gay agenda." A segment of the gay community has an agenda, just as a segment of the Catholic community has an agenda and a segment of the African-American community has an agenda. There is no monolithic "gay agenda." There are a lot of us who don't give a toss about parades, and I personally care feck-all about the "hearts and minds" of straight Americans.

Don't let anyone tell you that you're a "bad homosexual" because you don't want to conform to a narrow stereotype. You don't have to be a hot-pants-wearing parade-goer, but you also don't have to conform to the current married-with-poodles vogue in the gay community, which as far as I'm concerned is a ridiculous parody of straight life in the 1950s.

<soapbox> The only thing any gay person owes the community is HONESTY. The modern gay-rights movement was founded on the radical notion that if each of us just stops hiding who we are, it makes things better for all of us. Because it's so much harder for the intolerant to hate us when their son, their co-worker or their best friend is gay. </soapbox>

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by tooki:
I mean, I'm a super-geeky, articulate, nerdy body modification nut who's into industrial/synthpop/EBM music rather than the usual club crap.

Oh, Tooki. Say it isn't so.

Of course, I subscribe to car magazines, love hockey, hate opera, never go to the gym and harbor a secret longing for Linda Evangelista, so I'm not so good at stereotypes either.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:

<soapbox> The only thing any gay person owes the community is HONESTY. The modern gay-rights movement was founded on the radical notion that if each of us just stops hiding who we are, it makes things better for all of us. Because it's so much harder for the intolerant to hate us when their son, their co-worker or their best friend is gay. </soapbox>

No one should HATE anyone. No matter what they are.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No one should HATE anyone. No matter what they are.

Would that more of your ideological peers felt that way. But I have seen more sheer hatred in the past year than I can remember in the last 20. The gay-marriage thing has caused everyone to just come completely unglued.

[Millennium]

The reason I'm asking this is I've thought about it a lot, and it relates to who I am, and how I feel about myself. For the first time.....I'll admit, I have had experiences with guys. In fact, I find other guys to be attractive--more like a beautiful work of art. I also have interests in ladies too, but I have a much stronger preference to men. While that doesn't exactly make me a full homosexual, it would certainly qualify me as a man with homosexual tendencies.

First off, if this is the first time you've admitted it, then allow me to offer congratulations. Coming out is something which takes great courage. Even if you don't consider this to actually be coming out, it seems to run along similar enough lines to require the same kind of courage. That's something I have a lot of respect for.

Ahem. If you can't relate to the stereotypical gay man, then there's no need to worry; you are who you are, and the rest is ultimately meaningless.

There are people -mostly in the gay community, but some outside as well- who will criticize you for "hiding it". These people honestly mean well; they believe that you will be happier if, as they are likely to put it, you "let go of your hang-ups". They believe you are inflicting needless pain upon yourself, and they don't want to see you suffer.

There are also people -mostly outside the gay community, but some inside as well- who will see your "hiding it" as some kind of hope that "you may yet be saved" and try to "convert" you "back" to straightness. These people, believe it not, also mean well; they believe you will be happier if, as they are likely to put it, you "turn away from this path". They believe that your actions will have dire consequences later down the road, and they don't want to see you suffer.

However, despite the fact that both of these camps -and everything in between- all mean well, none of them can actually claim to know you in the same way that you do. Therefore, feel free to tell both sides to go **** themselves, if that's what your heart is telling you to do.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by gerbnl:
Oh, damn... and you started out sooo well (i love pink unitards, but i'll leave the nationalistic cape for you ok?)

but, ehhh... i think your sevenest and eightest points are nonsense. (or at least: *I* percieve them as nonsense, ok?)) In discussing *any* controversial things in general one *must* make others feel unconfortable to win them over or make them take a stand. This has nothing to do with disrespectfulness.

Seven is semi-untrue, since i feel that right is already reserved for everybody. No need to suddenly deny that for fags. [disclaimer: i hate PC "gay", i prefer to be a fag, Ok?]

PS: Yes, ik know how you meant what you wrote, i didn't misunderstand you, Ok?

Ok...

#7 Referenced the "I'm gay, so I can say that, and you can't" like faggot and/or fag It's the same thing with the "N" word for African American people. If you don't want people calling you that name, enforce the non-acceptance of the word. I'm gay, so I can say "fag" Bull S@#$. If I can't say it, nobody should be saying it. I don't agree in "privileged" words.

I think 7 and 8 work for everything, but I've had issues with those with my gay friends.

I realize to convince people, you are going to make them feel somewhat uncomfortable because you are breaking down their belief system.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
Would that more of your ideological peers felt that way. But I have seen more sheer hatred in the past year than I can remember in the last 20. The gay-marriage thing has caused everyone to just come completely unglued.

In the past year, I have seen lots of people projecting hate when it's just not there too.

Just because one person is against something, doesn't mean it's based on hate.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by businezguy:
With that said, I just can't relate to the whole lifestyle. I can see why there is a segment of the population, aside from religious people, who find gays to be disgusting. The whole gay culture is out of control. I don't want to argue this point, it isn't the point I'm trying to make.

The reason is probably because the news/media/entertainment industries usually don't showcase normal gay people. Will and Grace aren't average gay people.

The few I know are rather normal. You probably wouldn't be able to pick them out of a lineup... It's strange because the two guys do have some female tendencies, but it's nowhere near what people make it out to be.

[Oisín]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
The reason is probably because the news/media/entertainment industries usually don't showcase normal gay people. Will and Grace aren't average gay people.

Especially not Grace

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Will and Grace aren't average gay people.

I haven't seen it for some time, but isn't Grace straight? :???:

[Oisín]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
I haven't seen it for some time, but isn't Grace straight? :???:

Yes - hence aboveposted post.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Ok...

#7 Referenced the "I'm gay, so I can say that, and you can't" like faggot and/or fag It's the same thing with the "N" word for African American people. If you don't want people calling you that name, enforce the non-acceptance of the word. I'm gay, so I can say "fag" Bull S@#$. If I can't say it, nobody should be saying it. I don't agree in "privileged" words.

I think 7 and 8 work for everything, but I've had issues with those with my gay friends.

I realize to convince people, you are going to make them feel somewhat uncomfortable because you are breaking down their belief system.

I think you're focusing on the wrong issue. It's not the word, it's the intent behind using it. I have plenty of friends that refer to me as "a crazy fag" or something similar, and it doesn't bother me, because I know they're not trying to be offensive. It's an intimacy thing.

If I don't know you, and you come up to me and call me a fag, I'm going to assume it's meant to offend, because you don't know me, and have no right to be that... "intimate" is the wrong word, I suppose it's like a lot of European languages having both a formal and intimate form of the word "you." That, and nine times out of ten, it's used as an offensive word.

There are plenty of gay people I'd take offense being called a fag from, and most of my friends are straight.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Yes - hence aboveposted post.

Note timestamp.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
In the past year, I have seen lots of people projecting hate when it's just not there too.

Just because one person is against something, doesn't mean it's based on hate.

One thing you're going to have to realize, Zimph, is that most people don't believe it's possible to reject the morality of something that somebody does without hating that person. So someone does something I find immoral; why should I judge the person based on a few acts which don't directly affect me?

Frankly, if there is a "gay agenda" at all, it is to spread this myth, and they have done it quite effectively. It's the one and only thing I can fault them for. Most, of course, actually believe it nowadays, but I think I've come to understand why it first started: my shaming people into mistaking their rejection of what someone does for hatred of who someone is, they hoped to make those who really were hate-motivated conscious of that hate, in the hopes of changing them. I can't even really blame them for it; in their shoes, I might very well do the same thing. Hatred has been responsible for many terrible things, enough to drive its victims to desperation, and not without reason. But it makes life for those like you and me quite difficult; in a land of free expression, we must hide or else be falsely accused of hate, and no amount of reasoning will convince everyone otherwise.

I have many gay friends. When your girlfriend goes to a women's college, it's hard not to make gay friends of both genders. Most of them don't know about this particular aspect of my beliefs even to this day, though some do. I make it a policy not to tell them until I've known them several years. Is it decietful? Yes, I suppose it is. But the only way I've ever been able to convince anybody that I don't hate them is to point back to all those years of kindness, friendship, and respect. No amount of reasoning or logic works; only mountains of proof beyond what any court of law would require is sufficient.

Even then, many are angered when I the truth comes out. Not about my actual beliefs, mind you, but over the fact that I didn't tell them sooner, or even up front. Most, though, soon come to realize that there really was no other way; according to what almost everyone believes, my belief system should not be possible. I am a living logical contradiction to most, and while defying most people's laws of logic is kind of neat, I resent having to hide myself even as they speak of their own resentment of the same. I continue to do it, because I refuse to choose my friends based on sexual orientation. But I can't deny that it's not always easy.

[chris_h]

Originally posted by businezguy:
I have had experiences with guys. In fact, I find other guys to be attractive--more like a beautiful work of art.

HAH! Fag!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Millennium:
One thing you're going to have to realize, Zimph, is that most people don't believe it's possible to reject the morality of something that somebody does without hating that person. So someone does something I find immoral; why should I judge the person based on a few acts which don't directly affect me?

Frankly, if there is a "gay agenda" at all, it is to spread this myth, and they have done it quite effectively. It's the one and only thing I can fault them for. Most, of course, actually believe it nowadays, but I think I've come to understand why it first started: my shaming people into mistaking their rejection of what someone does for hatred of who someone is, they hoped to make those who really were hate-motivated conscious of that hate, in the hopes of changing them. I can't even really blame them for it; in their shoes, I might very well do the same thing. Hatred has been responsible for many terrible things, enough to drive its victims to desperation, and not without reason. But it makes life for those like you and me quite difficult; in a land of free expression, we must hide or else be falsely accused of hate, and no amount of reasoning will convince everyone otherwise.

I have many gay friends. When your girlfriend goes to a women's college, it's hard not to make gay friends of both genders. Most of them don't know about this particular aspect of my beliefs even to this day, though some do. I make it a policy not to tell them until I've known them several years. Is it decietful? Yes, I suppose it is. But the only way I've ever been able to convince anybody that I don't hate them is to point back to all those years of kindness, friendship, and respect. No amount of reasoning or logic works; only mountains of proof beyond what any court of law would require is sufficient.

Even then, many are angered when I the truth comes out. Not about my actual beliefs, mind you, but over the fact that I didn't tell them sooner, or even up front. Most, though, soon come to realize that there really was no other way; according to what almost everyone believes, my belief system should not be possible. I am a living logical contradiction to most, and while defying most people's laws of logic is kind of neat, I resent having to hide myself even as they speak of their own resentment of the same. I continue to do it, because I refuse to choose my friends based on sexual orientation. But I can't deny that it's not always easy.

GREAT post, and yes, I know where you are coming from.

[businezguy]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
It's not that they are hiding it, it's the issues regarding WHY they don't feel comfortable being open about it.

9/10 times it's because of either ridicule/shame from friends and family.

So, let's say I hide it because I'm "ashamed" of it. What difference does that make? My feeling are my feelings. Incidentally, I don't feel ashamed of my preference. I would just feel awkward with my straight male friends. I mean, I find guys attractive, and some of my guy friends are attractive to me. That obviously doesn't mean I'd ever hit on them, but I can't help but look. I wouldn't want them to know because they might catch me looking.

I'm not clear if your discomfort is from the way others think you should be more out or if you're currently uncomfortable with having homosexual leanings in general.

[businezguy]

Originally posted by tooki:
You may think you're the only man with gay tendencies (henceforth abbreviated to "gay") who doesn't fit into the gay mold, but you're not. Gays that don't stand out, well... don't stand out!

Many people are surprised when they find out I'm gay. They're used to gay people being the type of person that's so flaming you need to keep a fire extinguisher around, just in case!

Of course you see the activists (both the serious ones and the loonies), the sexpots (yeah, there are a lot of them, gay and otherwise), the super-flaming mega-queers, the leather daddies, etc. They are all noticeable. The gays that don't get into those things just tend to melt into the background.

I understand it -- I'm not a stereotypical gay, either. I mean, I'm a super-geeky, articulate, nerdy body modification nut who's into industrial/synthpop/EBM music rather than the usual club crap. Most gay guys out there don't know what to make of me!

Don't feel you're weird for being gay but not fitting the stereotype: there are lots of people out there like you, and there are lots of people out there seeking gays who aren't stereotypical gay.

tooki

I just don't FEEL gay. I know based on what I've said, I'm labeled gay...I certainly fit the definition. I don't know if it's denial or what, but just because I've had experiences with other men....so what? Why do I have to be given that label?

The thing about the "gay community" is there are all of these weird sub cultures. I know where you are coming from in that you can't relate to them. I just feel so alienated from that culture. You're right, it makes me feel different and unique. I just wish I could find somebody more like me so I could relate to them.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by businezguy:
I just don't FEEL gay. I know based on what I've said, I'm labeled gay...I certainly fit the definition. I don't know if it's denial or what, but just because I've had experiences with other men....so what? Why do I have to be given that label?

The thing about the "gay community" is there are all of these weird sub cultures. I know where you are coming from in that you can't relate to them. I just feel so alienated from that culture. You're right, it makes me feel different and unique. I just wish I could find somebody more like me so I could relate to them.

Define "gay."

The point I think they were trying to make is that there is no one "gay." Other than that your primary attraction is to members of the same gender. I know gay guys at my school that I have absolutely nothing in common with, but we're both as gay as the other. Hell, I've dated guys that that was the only thing we had in common... needless to say, it didn't work out. But that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

[businezguy]

Originally posted by Millennium:
First off, if this is the first time you've admitted it, then allow me to offer congratulations. Coming out is something which takes great courage. Even if you don't consider this to actually be coming out, it seems to run along similar enough lines to require the same kind of courage. That's something I have a lot of respect for.

Ahem. If you can't relate to the stereotypical gay man, then there's no need to worry; you are who you are, and the rest is ultimately meaningless.

There are people -mostly in the gay community, but some outside as well- who will criticize you for "hiding it". These people honestly mean well; they believe that you will be happier if, as they are likely to put it, you "let go of your hang-ups". They believe you are inflicting needless pain upon yourself, and they don't want to see you suffer.

There are also people -mostly outside the gay community, but some inside as well- who will see your "hiding it" as some kind of hope that "you may yet be saved" and try to "convert" you "back" to straightness. These people, believe it not, also mean well; they believe you will be happier if, as they are likely to put it, you "turn away from this path". They believe that your actions will have dire consequences later down the road, and they don't want to see you suffer.

However, despite the fact that both of these camps -and everything in between- all mean well, none of them can actually claim to know you in the same way that you do. Therefore, feel free to tell both sides to go **** themselves, if that's what your heart is telling you to do.

I don't feel like I've "outed" myself. I'm posting on a safe message board. I am not "out" in real life, and I'm not sure I would do that. I don't want to be an "in your face, I'm gay and it's your problem if you don't like me" type of person. In fact, I don't think there is anything wrong with straight men feeling uncomfortable about homosexuality. I could understand why they would feel that way. The issue isn't so black and white where straight people should just be PERFECTLY okay with gay people. I just don't understand why other gay people care so much about the whole acceptance thing. What's the big deal?

[businezguy]

Originally posted by vcutag:
Define "gay."

The point I think they were trying to make is that there is no one "gay." Other than that your primary attraction is to members of the same gender. I know gay guys at my school that I have absolutely nothing in common with, but we're both as gay as the other. Hell, I've dated guys that that was the only thing we had in common... needless to say, it didn't work out. But that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

Forget the definition of gay in the dictionary. I would consider the practical, social definition of gays to be an openly gay, in-your-face, let's-tell-the-world, you-have-to-accept-me types. That's the way society views them, in my opinion. That's the way I view them.

I certainly don't feel I'd like to share that same label. Gay has become a social label, and I don't want it. I'd rather be thought of as a guy who digs other guys. I should invent a new word with a definition for people like me.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by businezguy:
Forget the definition of gay in the dictionary. I would consider the practical, social definition of gays to be an openly gay, in-your-face, let's-tell-the-world, you-have-to-accept-me types. That's the way society views them, in my opinion. That's the way I view them.

I certainly don't feel I'd like to share that same label. Gay has become a social label, and I don't want it. I'd rather be thought of as a guy who digs other guys. I should invent a new word with a definition for people like me.

Meh. I'm basically a guy in his early 20's who's engaged and finishing up undergrad and has plans to go to work and buy a house, etc etc. The only difference is that my partner is a guy, not a girl. I don't go to clubs, I hate dance music (more of a classic rock guy, myself), and well, had word not gotten out, I'd be getting commissioned as a second Lieutenant in the army in a matter of weeks. Most people assume I'm straight.

I certainly don't fit your description of gay, but I consider myself gay. I think the vast majority of people would disagree with you on your definition of gay. It'd be a bit like saying your definition of "black" means someone who listens to rap, is a crack addict, and lives in an inner-city ghetto. Certainly, that's the (very, very incorrect) stereotype of black people in our society. Perpetuating it seems like the easy way out, in my opinion.

I'm no activist, but I firmly believe that the more people see that we *don't* fit that stereotype, the easier it will be to be gay in our society. But, you've said you really don't care about any of that, which is cool. Just trying to expand your horizons a bit.

Good luck with the "guy who likes guys" thing.

[OreoCookie]

I'm not gay. But still, I think the principle of `hiding who you are' is usually harming yourself. You don't have to run around, telling everybody `Hey, I'm gay!' like in Mishima's `Confessions Of A Mask', but you should very normally talk about it.

If you have a boyfriend, then -- if you are asked how your spouse is --, then you should be able to quite naturally reply `He's fine.' or so. That's what I mean by not hiding and not running around. I don't think it's any good if people are not comfortable with the way they are. If it is something normal like homosexuality then they shouldn't.

[vcutag]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I'm not gay. But still, I think the principle of `hiding who you are' is usually harming yourself. You don't have to run around, telling everybody `Hey, I'm gay!' like in Mishima's `Confessions Of A Mask', but you should very normally talk about it.

If you have a boyfriend, then -- if you are asked how your spouse is --, then you should be able to quite naturally reply `He's fine.' or so. That's what I mean by not hiding and not running around. I don't think it's any good if people are not comfortable with the way they are. If it is something normal like homosexuality then they shouldn't.

I had two job interviews last week, and I mentioned how I wanted to stay in the area because my partner (even though I hate the word, fiancee doesn't work, IMO) is teaching at a local school for a few years before we move out of Virginia. They didn't bat an eyelash, it was great.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I'm not gay. But still, I think the principle of `hiding who you are' is usually harming yourself. You don't have to run around, telling everybody `Hey, I'm gay!' like in Mishima's `Confessions Of A Mask', but you should very normally talk about it.

If you have a boyfriend, then -- if you are asked how your spouse is --, then you should be able to quite naturally reply `He's fine.' or so. That's what I mean by not hiding and not running around. I don't think it's any good if people are not comfortable with the way they are. If it is something normal like homosexuality then they shouldn't.

You also have to understand, not everyone shares your opinion. And THAT is why sometimes people don't say anything.

I myself have on many occasion kept my beliefs "In the closet" because of the same reason.

If he feels comfortable doing it the way he is doing it, what's the harm?

[businezguy]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You also have to understand, not everyone shares your opinion. And THAT is why sometimes people don't say anything.

I myself have on many occasion kept my beliefs "In the closet" because of the same reason.

If he feels comfortable doing it the way he is doing it, what's the harm?

Okay, I'm curious enough to ask. What are you beliefs, if I may ask?