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Suicide by plane
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The Final Dakar
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Mar 26, 2015, 10:00 AM
 
Pretty ****ed up conclusion.
Germanwings plane crash: Co-pilot 'wanted to destroy plane' - BBC News
The co-pilot of the Germanwings flight that crashed in the French Alps, named as Andreas Lubitz, appeared to want to "destroy the plane", officials said.

Marseille prosecutor Brice Robin, citing information from the "black box" voice recorder, said the co-pilot was alone in the cockpit.

He intentionally started a descent while the pilot was locked out.

Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.
     
osiris
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Mar 26, 2015, 10:54 AM
 
ya, this is one of the most f'ed up things I've heard in a long time.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
Atheist
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Mar 26, 2015, 11:10 AM
 
I'm flying to DC on Monday. I hate flying right after crashes even though I know it's much more dangerous just getting to the airport than getting on the plane.

What's so disturbing about this crash is that these people knew they were going to die and could do nothing to stop it. What a shitty way to go.
     
ort888
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Mar 26, 2015, 11:35 AM
 
This isn't suicide it's mass murder.

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 26, 2015, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
This isn't suicide it's mass murder.
It's both.
     
mindwaves
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Mar 26, 2015, 11:52 AM
 
Terrible, terrible.
     
Jawbone54
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Mar 26, 2015, 10:25 PM
 
I read that they immediately instituted the U.S. policy of requiring two crew members in the cockpit at all times. Good.

I just hate that it's too late to save the victims. God help their families.
     
Laminar
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Mar 27, 2015, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I read that they immediately instituted the U.S. policy of requiring two crew members in the cockpit at all times. Good.
So when the pilot hops out of the cockpit to take a dump, one of the flight attendants has to sit in his seat? Usually I see them barricade the front of the cabin with a beverage car and glare at all of the would-be hijackers, what do they do if there's only one flight attendant?
     
mindwaves
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Mar 27, 2015, 09:58 AM
 
Yeah, not sure how that will work for longer flights. When I fly for 14 hours, I have to use the restroom at least once, and I try not to drink too much on the plane and use the restroom before boarding.

Still a terrible tragedy.
     
subego
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Mar 27, 2015, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
So when the pilot hops out of the cockpit to take a dump, one of the flight attendants has to sit in his seat? Usually I see them barricade the front of the cabin with a beverage car and glare at all of the would-be hijackers, what do they do if there's only one flight attendant?
Then you wait for your frigging rum and coke, Skippy.
     
Jawbone54
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Mar 27, 2015, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
So when the pilot hops out of the cockpit to take a dump, one of the flight attendants has to sit in his seat? Usually I see them barricade the front of the cabin with a beverage car and glare at all of the would-be hijackers, what do they do if there's only one flight attendant?
It's your new beard. They're glaring at you because of the beard.
     
subego
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Mar 27, 2015, 12:31 PM
 
I say we give pilots enemas and catheters.

Not because of this, really more for giggles.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 27, 2015, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
It's your new beard. They're glaring at you because of the beard.
That's not their fault, he really does look like a Russian terrorist.
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Laminar
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Mar 28, 2015, 10:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Then you wait for your frigging rum and coke, Skippy.
It's Jack and ginger on airplanes for me. Puts me right to sleep.
     
subego
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Mar 28, 2015, 02:49 PM
 
I couldn't think of an insulting drink, so I picked a boring one.
     
Chongo
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Mar 28, 2015, 04:07 PM
 
Let's see if there is anything to backup these claims.
The co-pilot of the Germanwings Airbus was a convert to Islam
45/47
     
turtle777
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Mar 28, 2015, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Let's see if there is anything to backup these claims.
The co-pilot of the Germanwings Airbus was a convert to Islam
Mainstream media in Germany are not picking this up.
The author of this "story" has deleted his blog post about it:

http://michael-mannheimer.net/2015/0...egen-den-berg/

I'd like to see some credible sources first.

-t
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 28, 2015, 11:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Let's see if there is anything to backup these claims.
The co-pilot of the Germanwings Airbus was a convert to Islam
The source of the story was a German right-wing extremist blog called “Politically Incorrect” as well as a blog associated to it, both of which attract a lot of bigots, racists, homophones and anti-muslim people from the right fringe (the N-word and other racial slurs are used quite liberally in the comments, just to give you an indication). I wouldn't put any stock in this as a source of news whatsoever unless a serious news source corroborates this story. I don't think it looks like the co-polit committed a politically or religiously motivated murder-suicide — otherwise the co-polit would have left a video, a manifesto or a note. The police found documentation that suggests the co-pilot had mental problems (depression), and he was keeping them secret from his employer.

Even then a straight link between depression and suicide is quite simplistic: most people who suffer from depression are not suicidal, even less are willing to kill 150 others in the act.
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subego
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Mar 28, 2015, 11:55 PM
 
So, the current picture is he was crazy, and had he tried to do something about it, his career would have ended.

Anyone have any clever ideas about how to address this?
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 29, 2015, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, the current picture is he was crazy, and had he tried to do something about it, his career would have ended.

Anyone have any clever ideas about how to address this?
He apparently was seeking medical attention (he had a doctor's note for the day of his suicide), and the hype in the media is really doing a disservice to people who suffer from depression or other psychological conditions. That's not really helping. Even in a regular job this topic is strictly off-limits, because people will think you will be less performant in your job, you're more susceptible to pressure and all that.
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subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 12:19 AM
 
Well, that's what I'm asking.

How do you change this so a mental health issue isn't a career-ender?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 29, 2015, 01:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, that's what I'm asking.

How do you change this so a mental health issue isn't a career-ender?
You take a medical leave, with your doctor's recommendation, and seek a more "immersive" type of treatment where they can help you get sorted out with proper medication and therapy.
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Laminar
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Mar 29, 2015, 01:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I couldn't think of an insulting drink, so I picked a boring one.
Cosmo is usually a solid choice there.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 29, 2015, 02:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You take a medical leave, with your doctor's recommendation, and seek a more "immersive" type of treatment where they can help you get sorted out with proper medication and therapy.
From what we've heard, that may be exactly what happened.
     
subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Cosmo is usually a solid choice there.
That would have lacked a certain verisimilitude.
     
subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 10:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You take a medical leave, with your doctor's recommendation, and seek a more "immersive" type of treatment where they can help you get sorted out with proper medication and therapy.
What kind of success rate do you think we would need for this to work (i.e. for people willing to self-admit)?

I think even 90% success/10% your career is kaput isn't good enough.
     
subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 10:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
From what we've heard, that may be exactly what happened.
I get the impression this would have needed to be under the table. Aren't doctors required to report things like this in Germany?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 29, 2015, 01:35 PM
 
If somebody takes medical leave on doctors' recommendation/orders, it's nobody's business why. (to a point)

Doctors are legally sworn to secrecy, with very few exceptions, including explicit patient permission (duh), reportable diseases (like dangerous epidemics or diseases considered extinct and thus subject to lax immunisation practise and thus high risk), incapacitation of the patient (such as when a patient is found unconscious in a life-threatening conditon), and if a crime is explicitly planned (not if it's been committed, though, AFAIK). The right to privacy trumps everything by default in Germany, as it absolutely should. It cannot and should not be softened unless there is Damn Good Reason to.

Psychological evaluation for people with transport responsibility for thousands of people probably qualifies as "Damn Good Reason", mind you.

But even then:
Report what? To whom? What sort of illnesses would you have them report? Depression? At what degree? Slippery slope, and one that needs to be closely guarded against abuse by employers.
     
subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 02:03 PM
 
Wait...

There was talk of whether the pilot had eye issues, and I was given the strong impression doctors have to squawk about it.

Is this incorrect?
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 29, 2015, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Wait...

There was talk of whether the pilot had eye issues, and I was given the strong impression doctors have to squawk about it.

Is this incorrect?
Pilots have yearly medical exams (by the employer's doctor, the Betriebsarzt) which determine whether they are fit for duty. That means if you have eye issues that would prevent you from flying, it'd take at most a year until you get caught. Up until now, there was a big focus on physical fitness rather than mental fitness.

Just to give you an idea: my mom works in a hospital, and for about a decade she was the deputy head of the x-ray department. A colleague of hers is obviously suffering from anorexia (you just have to look at her), but since she hasn't declared her disability the hospital is in a legal conundrum: they cannot give her too much special treatment (because she could in fact sue her employer), but of course, they cannot in good conscience let her do night shifts or simply let her lift patients by herself. Privacy laws are quite strict for good reason, though, and typically, there is good balance between information your employer needs to know and preserving an employee's right to privacy.

Even now I would say the system works well, because one freak case shouldn't suggest that the whole system is borked.
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Spheric Harlot
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Mar 29, 2015, 02:38 PM
 
Google tells me that pilots are generally required to undergo a yearly physical, so any non-critical conditions — like requiring glasses — would be on record. That does not include psychological evaluation, though — that's done during training and ends there.
I'm pretty sure that normal doctors' visits still fall under privacy laws.

It would be simple to REQUIRE a psychological evaluation. That isn't the issue, IMO.

In this case, they even found a sick certificate at home, excusing him from work for that day. It was torn up.


(pre-empted by Oreo)
     
subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 04:40 PM
 
So, pilots don't have to report taking medication?
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 29, 2015, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So, pilots don't have to report taking medication?
I don't know what they have to report, but I reckon a lot depends on the individual's honesty one way or another — not all medication is going to impair your ability to fly (or is taken to treat a condition which might). As far as I can tell, though, there is no mass problem with pilots flying even though they shouldn't.
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subego
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Mar 29, 2015, 08:05 PM
 
But I get the impression if you go on antidepressants, that's it... career is over.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 30, 2015, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Let's see if there is anything to backup these claims.
The co-pilot of the Germanwings Airbus was a convert to Islam
You can only hope, right?
     
subego
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Mar 30, 2015, 09:39 AM
 
As an aside to Oreo and Spheric...

From the defensive tone of your posts, I get the impression you think I'm trying to get depressed pilots off of planes.

I'm trying to get depressed pilots some job security so they'll deal with their depression.
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 30, 2015, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As an aside to Oreo and Spheric...

From the defensive tone of your posts, I get the impression you think I'm trying to get depressed pilots off of planes.

I'm trying to get depressed pilots some job security so they'll deal with their depression.
That wasn't directed at you, but the hype in the media. It triggers all sorts of aimless activism that eats away at privacy regulations of individuals just because of one statistical outlier.

For the record I didn't read your posts as to say that anyone with any sort of mental illness should be banned from the cockpit, quite the contrary, and I agree with your sentiment. I would like to live in a world where a treatable mental illness is treated like any chronic disease. I don't know what the rules and regulations are when it comes to pilots and depression, but judging from the reaction of normal employers towards that sort of thing, I don't think airlines are more forgiving. When I got my life insurance, I had to sign that I have never been in treatment (even temporary!) for some mental illness.
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mattyb
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Mar 30, 2015, 11:00 AM
 
Now some sites are saying he was gay.

And then the bottom-feeders come out and comment.
     
subego
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Mar 30, 2015, 11:03 AM
 
There's a "top-feeder" joke in there somewhere.
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 30, 2015, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
Now some sites are saying he was gay.
That makes even less sense, that kind of character assassination is really despicable. (Especially so since being gay in Germany is not a big deal anymore.)
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subego
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Mar 30, 2015, 11:20 AM
 
How do we raise the stakes on this?

Depressed < Muslim < Gay < ?

I vote for "Canadian".
     
Jawbone54
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Mar 30, 2015, 11:24 AM
 
Even if he turned out to be a Muslim convert, this wasn't a terrorist-style attack. As far as I'm aware, no declarations or any other evidence found in his home supports this claim.

It was a clinically depressed guy with narcissistic characteristics (whose eyesight was also failing) being unable to cope with the fact that his occupation was eventually going to be taken from him. Instead of addressing it like a man, he snapped and killed 149 people so that people would still know he exists. He was a self-obsessed coward — end of story.
     
Jawbone54
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Mar 30, 2015, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I vote for "Canadian".
Eeeeasy... Don't disparage depressed gay Muslims.
Kidding — I love Canada.
     
BadKosh
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Mar 30, 2015, 01:19 PM
 
The issue that needs to be addressed is the jobs that some do, which have responsibility for others welfare etc (like cops, pilots, doctors, loco engineers, bus drivers, ship captains, etc) and the respect of privacy. Should all get the same level of privacy? What about those who really need to be checked to make sure they aren't wack jobs? What about the loner crazies who end up being mass murderers? Should the medical professionals and police have some system to make SURE the info isn't mis-used, but still allow the doctors to be able to 'red flag' a potential wack job, and bring them in for evaluation - for the good of others? If it turns out that they were NOT wack jobs nothing is done. No special limits on the person etc.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 30, 2015, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
The issue that needs to be addressed is the jobs that some do, which have responsibility for others welfare etc (like cops, pilots, doctors, loco engineers, bus drivers, ship captains, etc) and the respect of privacy. Should all get the same level of privacy? What about those who really need to be checked to make sure they aren't wack jobs? What about the loner crazies who end up being mass murderers?
In most cases (and countries), it's perfectly sufficient to just not give them guns.
     
subego
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Mar 31, 2015, 01:35 AM
 
Apparently, he was treated for "suicidal tendencies" before he got his pilot's license.

Commercial airliners will be flown by robots before we'll have a culture where a pilot admitting this to their employer is a workable proposition.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 31, 2015, 06:26 AM
 
And there you've hit upon exactly where it breaks down:

Forcing doctors to report psychological illnesses will merely result in a much larger number of untreated disorders — which is the exact opposite of what we want.
     
Phileas
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Mar 31, 2015, 06:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
The issue that needs to be addressed is the jobs that some do, which have responsibility for others welfare etc (like cops, pilots, doctors, loco engineers, bus drivers, ship captains, etc) and the respect of privacy. Should all get the same level of privacy? What about those who really need to be checked to make sure they aren't wack jobs? What about the loner crazies who end up being mass murderers? Should the medical professionals and police have some system to make SURE the info isn't mis-used, but still allow the doctors to be able to 'red flag' a potential wack job, and bring them in for evaluation - for the good of others? If it turns out that they were NOT wack jobs nothing is done. No special limits on the person etc.
Calling mentally ill people wack jobs and crazies is probably the least possibly helpful way to deal with the situation. Well done for scraping the bottom, macnn style.

One of our employees battles anxiety attacks. Losing her job was her biggest related fear, until we sat her down and told her that we're not the kind of company firing somebody who's worked her ass off for us when she needs support the most. Go, get help, come back when you can and we figure it out.

Also, Jawbone hit the nail on the head with his evaluation.
     
Phileas
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Mar 31, 2015, 06:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
How do we raise the stakes on this?

Depressed < Muslim < Gay < ?

I vote for "Canadian".
That comes later. After governor from Indiana.
     
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Mar 31, 2015, 02:39 PM
 
Just an update: the Lufthansa flight school (where the co-pilot had received his education) did know about his depression, and because his depressive episode had been treated, he was allowed to fly.

(Sorry, I just got a link in German.)
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