[Paco500]

Originally Posted by freudling 

WebOS is very refined, and HP-Palm have basically the best designed tablet computer right now.

I agree with the WebOS being refined part- but what is notable about the tablet design? It's basically a copy of the iPad that weighs a bit more and will have to compete with whatever Apple ships in the next few months. As far as design, HP definitely went for where the puck was rather than where it was going.

The only design bit that I think could be remarkable is the touchstone. If it offers the versatility of the dock connector wirelessly, it could be great, but I didn't really get the notion that there would be a 3rd party peripheral market based on it.

I think one thing not many people are taking into account as to how this will play out is the Apple stores. WebOS may look great side-by-side against an iPad, but with so many people buying iPads at Apple stores or online- how many (real- not techies) people are actually going to get to make that comparison?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

I agree with the WebOS being refined part- but what is notable about the tablet design? It's basically a copy of the iPad that weighs a bit more and will have to compete with whatever Apple ships in the next few months. As far as design, HP definitely went for where the puck was rather than where it was going.

The only design bit that I think could be remarkable is the touchstone. If it offers the versatility of the dock connector wirelessly, it could be great, but I didn't really get the notion that there would be a 3rd party peripheral market based on it.

I think one thing not many people are taking into account as to how this will play out is the Apple stores. WebOS may look great side-by-side against an iPad, but with so many people buying iPads at Apple stores or online- how many (real- not techies) people are actually going to get to make that comparison?

Some really good points. And you remembered Jobs' Gretzky quote...

First, the design. I'm sure you can understand how hard it is to appreciate something when it's being watched on a small screen over the Internet. That thing is very well designed. Gorgeous. All black. Rounded corners. Totally sleek. The iPad 1? Same old alumitub with sharp edges. I absolutely adore the all black on the Topaz... but the design will be better for your hands because of how rounded the corners are. The bezel is excellent too.

Now, as for how many people will compare the iPad to the Topaz when everybody is crowding the Apple Stores. That's part of the reason why I gave Apple 50-55% marketshare. Remember, I said 20% for HP-Palm. What will help is all the sales channels HP has. I mean, god, HP gear is everywhere! You'll find it at FutureShop, BestBuy... all the biggest electronics stores around the world. That's going to get it the exposure it needs. If you were to raise this argument before the HP merger, I would have sided more with you. But now they have HP behind them. And HP's Vice President said that they basically bought Palm because of WebOS and their mobile talent. So there you go. They're serious about this.

Mark my words man, people are going to go crazy over Topaz. Come back here a few months after the release and tell me either I was right, or, that I'm completely dazed and confused and it was a failure.

People are also going to rave over iPad 2, no doubt. My 20% marketshare prediction for WebOS tablets accounts for Apple releasing a true multi-tasking iOS 5. But I don't see that for another year... could be wrong, but, just sayin'.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

While I think HP-Palm's presentation is a bit of a copy of Apple's events... I don't think WebOS is just a copy of iOS. If anything, Apple basically copied Palm. ... Palm copied Apple, then, Apple sort of copied Palm again.

I don't think this is a very fruitful line of thought: all of these OS brought something to the table the other (previous) one didn't: the Newton created a market (for PDAs), Palm made them affordable (but less powerful in certain ways), Apple added multitouch with the iOS (a game changer in the phone market) and webOS has added synergy and the card-based metaphor for multitasking.

Originally Posted by freudling 

And don't even get me started. Symbian was out long before the iPhone. You could buy and download Apps on Nokia smartphones years before the iPhone.

… and yet, they didn't make anything off it, because Nokia thought in terms of devices and not platforms. A few colleagues of mine did interesting AR stuff with Symbian smartphones, but ultimately, the market didn't explode.

Originally Posted by freudling 

WebOS is the next generation Palm OS and, if you've ever used it, you'd know how it runs circles around iOS. During the pres. you can see stuff that the current iOS can only dream of. For instance, dragging Emails over into a stack to access them later; getting a macro view of your open Apps by swiping through cards; layering important chunks of windows into stacks; real pop ups from other Apps that overlay on the currently running App... Then there's the brilliant sync between the phone and the Tablet, where the tablet can show text messages from the phone... the phone can display the same webpage as the tablet... That's brilliant... iOS does none of this.

I dunno know about the circles part. So far, webOS has two distinct advantages: the way it handles multitasking and integration with the cloud (that includes syncing of text messages and such). These are two things, Apple could easily add in the next iteration of iOS (and one should keep in mind that hp will release the touchPad this summer).

iOS does have advantages (and potential advantages) over webOS, I've listed a few in a previous post.

Originally Posted by freudling 

The thing that separates HP-Palm from others is that they operate like Apple here. 1 device, tightly conjoined with the software. It's no surprise that they're able to innovate like this.

That's quite a turn-around from your rather positive opinion about Android-based tablets. Just sayin'

Originally Posted by freudling 

Apple, get that iOS 5 out, your 1 trick pony OS isn't going to cut the mustard for much longer.

iOS is still the canvas for next-gen productivity apps on tablets and smartphones. Perhaps it'll be different in a year or two, but it certainly isn't a one-trick pony.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I don't think this is a very fruitful line of thought: all of these OS brought something to the table the other (previous) one didn't: the Newton created a market (for PDAs), Palm made them affordable (but less powerful in certain ways), Apple added multitouch with the iOS (a game changer in the phone market) and webOS has added synergy and the card-based metaphor for multitasking.

The reason I pointed it out was because people love to say how Palm just copied Apple's iOS. It's not entirely true.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

… and yet, they didn't make anything off it, because Nokia thought in terms of devices and not platforms. A few colleagues of mine did interesting AR stuff with Symbian smartphones, but ultimately, the market didn't explode.

Where have you been the last decade? Even though they're losing marketshare now, Nokia has been number 1 in the world for mobile phones for several years running. You have to give them credit for Symbian. Early Nokia smartphones in their day were the best around, along with Sony Ericsson stuff. These phones were light years ahead of anything else. Buy and download Apps. Surf the Web. Obviously not like it is now, but they were huge.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I dunno know about the circles part. So far, webOS has two distinct advantages: the way it handles multitasking and integration with the cloud (that includes syncing of text messages and such). These are two things, Apple could easily add in the next iteration of iOS (and one should keep in mind that hp will release the touchPad this summer).

I think you're really underestimating how much more advanced WebOS really is.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

That's quite a turn-around from your rather positive opinion about Android-based tablets. Just sayin'

Not at all. You're taking it out of context. I'm making predictions, and that means dispelling my own preferences and trying to just act like a general consumer. I think Android is too geeky for the average consumer on a tablet. I think they'll opt for the easier, more refined WebOS or iOS. But for me personally, I do like Android on a tablet.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

iOS is still the canvas for next-gen productivity apps on tablets and smartphones. Perhaps it'll be different in a year or two, but it certainly isn't a one-trick pony.

For me, the current version is two dimensional, sadly. Same old. Multi-tasking is a nice add-on but it's a bit of a joke. It's not really multi-tasking in the way Honeycomb or WebOS is. I'm betting on WebOS partly because of the productivity gains it'll give users. Nobody using it will want to go back to the current flavor of iOS. It's just not near as efficient. But hey, I could be wrong.

See you at BestBuy, pal.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Where have you been the last decade? Even though they're losing marketshare now, Nokia has been number 1 in the world for mobile phones for several years running. You have to give them credit for Symbian. Early Nokia smartphones in their day were the best around, along with Sony Ericsson stuff.

Yes, but they're on the decline and they haven't had a hit in a very long time. Their new CEO says openly, that `their platform is burning.' Revenues are down, because they sell a lot of phones, but a lot of cheap phones with a smaller margin. It is losing market share even in former strongholds of Nokia -- it's quite clear they are in trouble. I hope they're pulling through.

Originally Posted by freudling 

I think you're really underestimating how much more advanced WebOS really is.

Instead of just repeating that, how about substantiating that with examples -- especially concerning underlying technologies.* Does webOS have an OpenCL implementation like iOS? Does the browser use the gpu to render websites as next version of IE for Windows Phone 7 may? These are low-level differences that can make a substantial difference to me. I just don't see how iOS is lagging way behind.

* I'm not talking about UI implementations on top, e. g. how multitasking is presented to the user. Fundamentally, all modern mobile OS support multitasking, the challenge is how to present it to the user, but there are no limitations on the OS level.

Originally Posted by freudling 

But for me personally, I do like Android on a tablet.

Well, before you were downplaying the significance of the ecosystem aspect and now you're emphasizing it as a big asset compared to Android (which I agree with).

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Yes, but they're on the decline and they haven't had a hit in a very long time. Their new CEO says openly, that `their platform is burning.' Revenues are down, because they sell a lot of phones, but a lot of cheap phones with a smaller margin. It is losing market share even in former strongholds of Nokia -- it's quite clear they are in trouble. I hope they're pulling through.

Instead of just repeating that, how about substantiating that with examples -- especially concerning underlying technologies.* Does webOS have an OpenCL implementation like iOS? Does the browser use the gpu to render websites as next version of IE for Windows Phone 7 may? These are low-level differences that can make a substantial difference to me. I just don't see how iOS is lagging way behind.

* I'm not talking about UI implementations on top, e. g. how multitasking is presented to the user. Fundamentally, all modern mobile OS support multitasking, the challenge is how to present it to the user, but there are no limitations on the OS level.

Well, before you were downplaying the significance of the ecosystem aspect and now you're emphasizing it as a big asset compared to Android (which I agree with).

I like Android, and it's been hugely successful so far. What I see happening is that once WebOS hits with Topaz, it's going to trump Android in the tablet space. Android will still be popular on smartphones, but I think Topaz will sell a ton, where Android-based tablets will sell, just not as well as Topaz. If HP-Palm wasn't around, then Android and Apple would own the tablet space.

As for the core of WebOS, here's what it incorporates:

GCC
OpenGL ES 1.1 or 2.0
Simple DirectMedia Library (SDL)
Palm Development Library (PDL)
SDL_cinema

Hardware on Topaz:

Third generation SnapDragon CPU APQ8060 1.2GHZ dual-core processor SOC...

Incorporated into the SOC: the Adreno 220 graphics processor... can display up to 1080p stereoscopic/HD, 3D video (or output 3D video on an external display via a mini-HDMI port).

[freudling]

Great first hands ons. If these don't get your excited, I don't know what will!

Splendgadget:

YouTube - HP TouchPad first hands-on! - Engadget

PCMag:

YouTube - Live from HP's WebOS TouchPad Launch

[Phileas]

I do like WebOs, but I think it's too little, too late.

The battle will be between Android and iOS, with MS in third place. Technically WebOs might well be better, but as the example of the BETA video format proves, better doesn't always win.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

I do like WebOs, but I think it's too little, too late.

The battle will be between Android and iOS, with MS in third place. Technically WebOs might well be better, but as the example of the BETA video format proves, better doesn't always win.

Impossible to say right now, but for the reasons I mentioned, I think it will be a hit in the tablet space. And I'm talking tablet space. I think it's easy to confound tablets and smartphones. WebOS is the best tablet OS, and the tablet market is just beginning, unlike the smartphone market which is now several years old and crowded. Just remember that, HP-Palm is an early mover in the tablet space. That's another part of the reason I don't think it's too little too late for them.

[imitchellg5]

I'd wait until it goes on sale to call it the best tablet OS and a hit...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I'd wait until it goes on sale to call it the best tablet OS and a hit...

I think. This doesn't mean I know with certainty.

[imitchellg5]

You did certainly say

WebOS is the best tablet OS, and the tablet market is just beginning

which seems to be a premature statement to make considering that webOS's implementation onto the TouchPad is not final and there happens to be a very well entrenched tablet on the market right now. It's going to be a tremendous uphill battle for both Android and webOS to gain market share, and a battle that none have been successful at so far.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You did certainly say which seems to be a premature statement to make considering that webOS's implementation onto the TouchPad is not final and there happens to be a very well entrenched tablet on the market right now. It's going to be a tremendous uphill battle for both Android and webOS to gain market share, and a battle that none have been successful at so far.

In my opinion... obviously goes without saying. The whole world can think it's crap. I think it's the best for a variety of reasons already discussed.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

As for the core of WebOS, here's what it incorporates:

GCC
OpenGL ES 1.1 or 2.0
Simple DirectMedia Library (SDL)
Palm Development Library (PDL)
SDL_cinema

This list says really nothing about what's special about webOS: iOS and Android also have gcc and OpenGL (although Apple is switching to llvm + clang which is more advanced).

Originally Posted by freudling 

Third generation SnapDragon CPU APQ8060 1.2GHZ dual-core processor SOC...

Incorporated into the SOC: the Adreno 220 graphics processor... can display up to 1080p stereoscopic/HD, 3D video (or output 3D video on an external display via a mini-HDMI port).

Those are specs of a state-of-the-art cellphone/tablet these days. Which is a good thing for Palm, I mean hp, they're using the latest and greatest in technologies.

Just to reiterate: I like what I see in webOS a lot, the hardware (with the exception of hardware keyboards on the Pre 3 and Veer) is great. I only take issue with some nebulous claim that webOS and its architecture runs circles around iOS. Apple could easily fix the shortcomings in the next release of iOS -- and I wouldn't be surprised if they spend a lot of time on improving the multitasking UI and the notification system (Apple just bought a company that makes a notification framework for iOS and the guy who originally developed the notifications for webOS is working for Apple). The tablet/smartphone OS market is very young and rapidly innovating. In principle, this is a great thing, because if you look back at the desktop market, by far the worse consequence of MS' dominance was (fortunately past-tense) that the pace of innovation stopped down to a trickle. The `downside' is that any lead can evaporate within a single release.

Personally, I would very much like to see webOS and iOS on top, because I think they're the most tastefully made. Just from the video, I can tell that talented people put in a lot of love and care into making webOS not just a `me too' product. I don't get that vibe from Android, it feels more like Windows to me.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I like Android, and it's been hugely successful so far. What I see happening is that once WebOS hits with Topaz, it's going to trump Android in the tablet space. Android will still be popular on smartphones, but I think Topaz will sell a ton, where Android-based tablets will sell, just not as well as Topaz. If HP-Palm wasn't around, then Android and Apple would own the tablet space.

I HATE Android with a passion. It expects me to know the technical underpinnings, and it has a convoluted and inconsistent UI, not to mention all the compatibility nuances which i couldn't be bothered checking on both hardware/software.

Also, i think your blind faith in HP and WebOS seems a little misplaced. The main reason being.... we have absolutely no idea what Topaz will be priced at or it's availability. Also, HP doesn't seem to have any experience with making a successful "vertical" consumer-electronic product (although Palm did).

I like the UI of WebOS on the Pre a lot, and the Topaz has potential. But i wouldn't be so....."cocky" as to say that it could outdo Android with the info we have thus far.

Honestly i prefer the Topaz vs iPad battle to the Android vs anything, just because of the variations and combinations of Android on different hardware.

Cheers

[Salty]

I really like the card + stacks metaphor a lot. Though they said that no other smartphone lets you move back to your inbox while composing an email. While true, I think Apple really would only have to make a slight modification and put a back button in main and let you save drafts which you can already half do.
There are lots of apps already that let you do this sort of thing, every IM client does for example. It's more of a UI blind spot than anything for Apple.

I do think that webOS does handle desktop like tasks better than iOS does now and I hope that Apple does get to work on bringing iOS up to snuff in that regard.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

This list says really nothing about what's special about webOS: iOS and Android also have gcc and OpenGL (although Apple is switching to llvm + clang which is more advanced).

Those are specs of a state-of-the-art cellphone/tablet these days. Which is a good thing for Palm, I mean hp, they're using the latest and greatest in technologies.

Just to reiterate: I like what I see in webOS a lot, the hardware (with the exception of hardware keyboards on the Pre 3 and Veer) is great. I only take issue with some nebulous claim that webOS and its architecture runs circles around iOS. Apple could easily fix the shortcomings in the next release of iOS -- and I wouldn't be surprised if they spend a lot of time on improving the multitasking UI and the notification system (Apple just bought a company that makes a notification framework for iOS and the guy who originally developed the notifications for webOS is working for Apple). The tablet/smartphone OS market is very young and rapidly innovating. In principle, this is a great thing, because if you look back at the desktop market, by far the worse consequence of MS' dominance was (fortunately past-tense) that the pace of innovation stopped down to a trickle. The `downside' is that any lead can evaporate within a single release.

Personally, I would very much like to see webOS and iOS on top, because I think they're the most tastefully made. Just from the video, I can tell that talented people put in a lot of love and care into making webOS not just a `me too' product. I don't get that vibe from Android, it feels more like Windows to me.

You asked me how WebOS takes advantage of the graphics processor. I merely pointed out the core of its framework. So yes, it has graphics acceleration, offloading video, etc. to the graphics processor.

The rest of what you say... well, I kind of skimmed past it. Your not really saying much.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Salty 

I really like the card + stacks metaphor a lot. Though they said that no other smartphone lets you move back to your inbox while composing an email. While true, I think Apple really would only have to make a slight modification and put a back button in main and let you save drafts which you can already half do.
There are lots of apps already that let you do this sort of thing, every IM client does for example. It's more of a UI blind spot than anything for Apple.

I do think that webOS does handle desktop like tasks better than iOS does now and I hope that Apple does get to work on bringing iOS up to snuff in that regard.

Ya, some good points. The thing is, it's not just a little tweak here and there, there's a lot different about WebOS compared to iOS. It's going to take a complete revision and version - iOS 5 - for Apple to catch up. And don't blindly follow Apple here, they are behind the game compared to WebOS. I know they have all the Apps, etc., but their OS is fundamentally lacking in many respects compared to WebOS. I'm not going to repeat myself here. Any extended use or even viewing of WebOS demonstrates how much more that system can multi-task, along with other features that iOS lacks, like wireless phone sync/text message, proximity data exchange, etc.

And the hardware... I also think people on here are really not giving HP credit for the innovative hardware. Wireless charging? Really? If Apple came out with that all of you would be like "ooooooh, awwwwwww". That's a very big deal. And you don't need some silly case to put on the device, it just works. The Topaz has an incredible design too. Beats audio. Again, if Apple came out with that you'd all be all over it.

What I don't like is that they put pull out keyboards onto their phones. That's annoying and I won't be buying a Palm smartphone. Jesus.

[olePigeon]

Having used an Android and now seen the HP WebOS (and seen TouchFlo on HTC), is Apple the only company that actually spent the time to ensure smooth acceleration and deceleration of objects when you flick them? Menus, cover flow, etc. on the iPad are smooth and fluid. On Android and apparently on the videos for WebOS it's like the objects sliding over sand paper.

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

I do like WebOs, but I think it's too little, too late.

The battle will be between Android and iOS, with MS in third place. Technically WebOs might well be better, but as the example of the BETA video format proves, better doesn't always win.

+1

WebOS should have been able to take on iOS and Android for the top position but HPalm screwed it up. What is out right now, which is basically the same state the OS was when they released the Pre 18 months ago, is still not polished enough to really compete with Apple or Google.

WebOS 2 could have been a great stop gap if they had released it last summer. It looks solid but for some reason they fumbled that too and without it nothing feature wise was introduced to peak public interest so the market share of WebOS stagnated.

Now they are just hemorrhaging users. Screwing over (and openly lying to) early adopters by not delivering v.2 to their current phones just gives those users an excuse to abandon them for Android and iOS and makes vocal enemies of them at the same time.
With a decreasing user base and no new phones being released until summer there's really no incentive for developers to keep on working to churn out apps for the WebOS ecosystem. And with no maturing app market your platform just looks sad compared to your competition.

The very worst thing is that what they announced last week isn't even ready to ship. By the time the Touchpad and Pre 3 come out Apple, Google, and various Android phone manufacturers will also have rolled out better products and WebOS is right back where they were last year at this time. They end up with no gains and let Apple/Google increase their lead as people become more deeply invested in their platform ecosystem. People are buying apps left and right on their iOS and Android phones. They aren't going to want to just abandon that money when its time to upgrade smartphones or even tablets. It really does seem like its too little too late.

(I also think the Veer looks like a toy. People like the form factor of the iPhone and Droid and HP should have at least one phone that resembles it)

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You asked me how WebOS takes advantage of the graphics processor.

No, I didn't ask how webOS takes advantage of the gpu. You claimed webOS runs circles around iOS without giving any specifics. I asked you what you think were the advantages of the underpinnings of webOS and you gave me a list of generic standards, software and hardware specs instead.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Langdon 

WebOS 2 could have been a great stop gap if they had released it last summer. It looks solid but for some reason they fumbled that too and without it nothing feature wise was introduced to peak public interest so the market share of WebOS stagnated.

Going bankrupt, putting the company up for sale, and restructuring a company under new ownership will do that.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No, I didn't ask how webOS takes advantage of the gpu. You claimed webOS runs circles around iOS without giving any specifics. I asked you what you think were the advantages of the underpinnings of webOS and you gave me a list of generic standards, software and hardware specs instead.

webOS runs circles around iOS. There, I said it. It's all been discussed. End of story. It's my opinion. Good night. Good luck. Farewell.

[brassplayersrock²]

One's opinion isn't always anothers.

For those that don't want to have a deep think:

 

One shouldn't run their mouth.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

One's opinion isn't always anothers.

For those that don't want to have a deep think:

 

One shouldn't run their mouth.

Hey, that was my point!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

webOS runs circles around iOS. There, I said it. It's all been discussed.

Actually, no, it's not been discussed at all.

Here's what happened:

Oreo was trying to discuss it, asking you, simply "How?", after offering a lengthy laundry list of points where he believes iOS to be ahead, TECHNOLOGICALLY.

You, in a stunning display of character and arrogance, pointed out that you didn't even read it and presented a list of qualities that applies pretty much equally to iOS.

Oreo notices this and asks for specific points where WebOS "runs circles" around iOS.

Again you act the blasé ass and tell him he isn't saying anything and that you haven't read his post.

NOBODY in this thread is bashing WebOS. In fact, nobody is even bashing YOU, which is quite astounding considering your tone and attitude.

---------------------------------


I, too, would be interested in hearing where WebOS is technologically more advanced than iOS.

So far, the only things I've seen are

- newer hardware (an iOS given for the timeframe WebOS 2.0 will be released in),
- Touchstone wireless charging (the location-aware stuff that goes with it is pretty cool) and
- apparently NFC-based data transfer (presumably quite different from what Bump has offered on iOS for some years: The Bump App for iPhone and Android | Bump Technologies, Inc. )

Those are some very small circles, sir.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Actually, no, it's not been discussed at all.

Here's what happened:...

pugnacious |pəgˈnā sh əs|
adjective
eager or quick to argue, quarrel, or fight : the increasingly pugnacious demeanor of politicians.

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/v...ng/Spheric.gif

[Spheric Harlot]

I'm sorry, I didn't read your post.

I am also completely mystified about what the hell you're trying to say with that image, but it sure makes it look like you're ten years old and think you've figured out what the adults are talking about. I'm actually seriously considering adding a WebOS device to my arsenal at some point, should the platform prove viable.

I just find it comical and odd that you have been unable or unwilling to tell us in any detail what technological advances WebOS actually brings to the table.

It seems patently obvious that you just really don't know, yourself, but are perfectly happy to troll these forums with random claims of something being "better" than whatever Apple's counterpart is. Yesterday it was Android and the Galaxy Tab; today, it's WebOS; tomorrow, it will be Microsoft's new Finnish Nekrosoft phone.

I don't buy your bullshit, or your credentials, or any of your expertise, anymore.

That's not "pugnacious", that's just unwillingness to waste time on twits.

Enjoy the forums.

[freudling]

http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/v.../spheric-1.png

That takes care of that.

[driven]

I suddenly feel like I'm in pre-school where one kid covers his ears and goes "blah blah blah". Lame.

[Spheric Harlot]

So, does anybody have an idea in what areas WebOS is more advanced than iOS?

I'm not talking about the UI - the multitasking UI is absolutely stunning IMO, and notifications are brilliant - but in terms of underlying frameworks.

Anybody?

[Thorzdad]

Let's keep it on-topic gang.

[Spheric Harlot]

I am.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

So, does anybody have an idea in what areas WebOS is more advanced than iOS?

I'm not talking about the UI - the multitasking UI is absolutely stunning IMO, and notifications are brilliant - but in terms of underlying frameworks.

Anybody?

This video attempts to speculate on that topic. It appears the front camera may have an edge: (He compares to the hardware against the iPad 2)
Hp Touchpad Vs Apple Ipad 2 First Look Comparison Webos Vs Ios

I am unable at this time to find anything comparing the OS itself. I suspect it's too early as very few people outside of HP/Palm itself have had time to really dig into the SDK.

[imitchellg5]

webOS 3.0 (which is what the TouchPad is running) is a mystery to developers. However, HP's newest dev tool, Enyo, allows dynamic scaling of ALL apps. Unlike the iPad which can run iPhone apps in a blown up view (but with no additional area for content), Enyo allows apps to take advantage of the extra screen space without any work at all. Of course it's nowhere near an end-all solution, but for the time being it'll mean that the TouchPad won't be saddled with the issues the Galaxy Tab had regarding apps at launch (and still does).

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No, I didn't ask how webOS takes advantage of the gpu.

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

...how about substantiating that with examples -- especially concerning underlying technologies.* Does webOS have an OpenCL implementation like iOS? Does the browser use the gpu to render websites as next version of IE for Windows Phone 7 may?

I then pointed out the underlying framework of webOS, including reference to the graphics acceleration.

Here's more detail. The answer is that yes, webOS 2.0 and later will do this. Quoting from the beta development guide: "Plug-ins (the HP PDK) give you the option of utilizing the PDK for graphics- and performance-intensive features as needed, while building the rest of your app in HTML/JavaScript/CSS—and enjoying the lightweight development process and rapid iteration that these web technologies enable..."

This includes 2D/3D hardware acceleration for the apps you build when you incorporate the HP PDK. The entire webOS platform is built on standard web technologies (HTML/JavaScript/CSS), where the App environment is built on the WebKit browser engine.

You're going to get the 2D/3D acceleration across the board with new versions of the webOS coming up. This has taken longer for HP-Palm to implement because of the acquisition and new hardware coming. But this will be standard on their new devices coming up.

Why webOS is a big deal.

The impression I'm getting is that people are growing tired of iOS and all of it's lock downs. It's expensive to develop for, and crowded. There's so much junk on the App Store the quantity thing is just marketing. It's the same argument Windows used: we've got more Apps! You didn't run over to them, did you? I'm even hearing of developers calling the App Store a ponzi scheme. Look, I'm not going to go that far, but... Developers make the money, but in the end, most people who own and market the Apps, don't. Like I stated before, the average revenue per App on Apple's App Store is $700 per year.

And Apps on iOS, several of them, don't perform that well. Games are great, among others. There's a few good ones. But there's lots of laggy ones. Many times it feels faster hitting HTML-5 stuff on the Web compared with using an App. The iPhone 4 is better presumably because it has more RAM, but this isn't just a hardware thing. It's just not that easy to develop natively for iOS because it's Objective C, and there are so many constraints in terms of rules, inaccessible APIs, etc.

Look at "The Daily". All it does is crash, and it's slow. Yes, fix the bugs. But that thing cost millions of dollars and in the end it doesn't seem to be gaining much ground. A comment system? Wow. You can do this stuff on the Web for a nano-hair the cost, and it performs well, in many cases better. Course there's limitations but people are now gravitating to the Web with HTML-5, Javascript, and CSS3. In many cases you can get App like experiences right on the Web.

webOS makes it easy to develop for by using HTML-5/CSS3/JavaScript without having to dive into C/C++. iOS development isn't really set up this way.

It's these lighter weight, more open systems like webOS and Android that are and will eventually draw more of a developer crowd. That's what I see. Now that webOS has the hardware coming up, it's going to be quite incredible. This is why I'm excited. As for the system from a usability standpoint, I agree 100% with what they said at the event: "Multi-tasking wasn't an afterthought on webOS."

[imitchellg5]

I've never had an iOS app crash since iOS 3, yet apps crash on my Pre almost daily... specifically Engadget and Facebook. While webOS is pretty simple to develop for, iOS certainly isn't challenging either. If you can do one, you generally do the other.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I've never had an iOS app crash since iOS 3, yet apps crash on my Pre almost daily... specifically Engadget and Facebook. While webOS is pretty simple to develop for, iOS certainly isn't challenging either. If you can do one, you generally do the other.

webOS crashing? Sure, that's early stuff. I pointed out before about memory leaks, for instance. The new webOS and new devices we think will solve that. For instance, fixed memory leaks, etc. Notice how I wasn't really pushing webOS a year ago? Now I am because with this new gear and new development framework it's going to kick butt.

As for iOS. No way. Your experience does not jive with reality.

Some examples from very popular Apps with large sample sets:

The Daily for iPad on the iTunes App Store

WordPress for iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad on the iTunes App Store

And Skype. They had a crashing problem for 6 months. There's lots of Apps that crash. Denying this is simply incredulous.

[imitchellg5]

I don't have an iPad.

If an app crashes and you can recreate it, it's not supposed to be on the App Store per guidelines. The App Catalog has very lax guidelines (same too with Android Marketplace). HP are going to have to deal with that very soon.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I don't have an iPad.

If an app crashes and you can recreate it, it's not supposed to be on the App Store per guidelines. The App Catalog has very lax guidelines (same too with Android Marketplace). HP are going to have to deal with that very soon.

Dude, this is not just in reference to an iPad. I can't believe you're actually trying to 'argue' over this. If you seriously believe that Apps don't crash on the iPhone, then cool.

[Langdon]

WebOS was full of potential. But to date very little of it has been realized.
Its the Marcus Dupree of mobile operating systems.

It has to be talked about in terms of what it could do because right now with v.1.4, which is the last version actually released, it is still very buggy with what it does do. And it may very well be better in some areas that its competitors in the future but the obstacles before it now are gigantic and potentially unsurmountable.

That's a point that can't be ignored. The longer people stay with one mobile OS the more deeply entrenched and invested they become in it and the more difficult it will become to make them switch in the future. Android and iOS have a huge lead and have strength in two different areas HP doesn't. Google has the benefit of partnering with various handset manufacturers to flood the market with phones running its OS. Apple has established itself as the industry leader and forerunner as well as having a superior brand reputation. HP has nothing to leverage.

In the next half year Apple will have introduced the iPad 2, iPhone 5, and iOS 5 as well as probably expanding the iPhone sales (in the US) to more than two carriers. Google and their partners will have also rolled out a ton of new phones and tablets.
In that same period HP will only have one terribly played out phone on the market with the slightly better WebOS 2. Armed with only that they are going to be eclipsed and make absolutely no inroads into the market.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Dude, this is not just in reference to an iPad. I can't believe you're actually trying to 'argue' over this. If you seriously believe that Apps don't crash on the iPhone, then cool.

I used to experience apps crashing all the time back in 2.0. But it's been at least a year and a half before I've had an app crash. But then again, I'm not downloading crap like "iFaceFat." However, I can reproduce Facebook and Foursquare app crashes on my Pre at will under 1.4.5.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I used to experience apps crashing all the time back in 2.0. But it's been at least a year and a half before I've had an app crash. But then again, I'm not downloading crap like "iFaceFat." However, I can reproduce Facebook and Foursquare app crashes on my Pre at will under 1.4.5.

Good for you imitch.

[imitchellg5]

Alright, whatever. Having lived with both iOS and webOS, I can tell you that iOS is absolutely the more solid OS from a reliability standpoint. Take it or leave it.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Alright, whatever. Having lived with both iOS and webOS, I can tell you that iOS is absolutely the more solid OS from a reliability standpoint. Take it or leave it.

I'll leave it.

[brassplayersrock²]

both of you please leave your fingers at the door; better yet, make believe that bickering will wear your fingers down to nubs if you keep it up. Understood?

Also, just because one can copy and paste data, does not make that one a professor on the subject.

[imitchellg5]

First HP advert featuring the new products: Link

It isn't actually that bad, apart from the atrocious music. I hope HP will show more adverts of the Palm stuff actually in action. Advertising is something that Palm did a terrible job at (remember the creepy Pre ads) and it's something that HP are going to have to really push hard, especially with a new iPad ad coming out every month or so and Motorola pushing the Xoom on both TV and internet ad spaces.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Langdon 

WebOS was full of potential. But to date very little of it has been realized.
Its the Marcus Dupree of mobile operating systems.

It has to be talked about in terms of what it could do because right now with v.1.4, which is the last version actually released, it is still very buggy with what it does do. And it may very well be better in some areas that its competitors in the future but the obstacles before it now are gigantic and potentially unsurmountable.

That's a point that can't be ignored. The longer people stay with one mobile OS the more deeply entrenched and invested they become in it and the more difficult it will become to make them switch in the future. Android and iOS have a huge lead and have strength in two different areas HP doesn't. Google has the benefit of partnering with various handset manufacturers to flood the market with phones running its OS. Apple has established itself as the industry leader and forerunner as well as having a superior brand reputation. HP has nothing to leverage.

In the next half year Apple will have introduced the iPad 2, iPhone 5, and iOS 5 as well as probably expanding the iPhone sales (in the US) to more than two carriers. Google and their partners will have also rolled out a ton of new phones and tablets.
In that same period HP will only have one terribly played out phone on the market with the slightly better WebOS 2. Armed with only that they are going to be eclipsed and make absolutely no inroads into the market.

Palm's hardware has sucked. That's problem 1.

A 600 MHz single-core processor with little GPU acceleration? No wonder users had been complaining about laggy performance.

These new generation devices are a complete solution to this. Just like Apple's move over to a more powerful ARM processor and better graphics/more memory alleviated the sluggishness found in its older iPhones, like iPhone 3G running iOS 4. Even the iPhone 3GS exhibited lagginess, like keyboard pauses, etc.

iPhone 4 is much faster, and makes iOS come into its own.

Now, traditional wisdom would agree with you. But the world's changed. There's nary any brand loyalty, although Apple shines amongst the rest in this regard. However, the exact opposite of what you're saying could happen. Tech is evolving so quickly, smartphones, tablets, and laptops are like jewellery.

Demonstrable: RIM and Nokia had huge hegemony and dominance. They were entrenched deeply in the mobile space and at the top of their game. Google and Apple have demonstrated that in a few short years, all of that can be turned around.

HP-Palm has a chance, just like Apple and Google have had. And if Apple gets stale, and keeps peeving people off with their draconian platform policies, they may start losing out to more open platforms like webOS and Android. That is, if consumers like them enough to buy them. And in this respect, webOS is as consumer friendly as anything else out there.

What's going to happen is that iOS isn't going to get much more marketshare. Android is poised to plateau too. Then, marketshare is going to get more evenly distributed amongst: WP7, iOS, Android, BB, and webOS.

http://www.silicon.com/technology/mo...ales-39746949/

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Demonstrable: RIM and Nokia had huge hegemony and dominance. They were entrenched deeply in the mobile space and at the top of their game. Google and Apple have demonstrated that in a few short years, all of that can be turned around.

You may well be right, but their chance, I would think, is pretty slim. Apple was able to get it's foot in the door by completely recreating the smartphone. Android did it by pretty much copying the iPhone and was good enough. No one who knows what they are talking about thinks that webOS is just another iPhone clone, but it is nowhere near as radical a departure as the iPhone was from RIM or Nokia, and they are very late in the game.

As for the tablet space, one think that no one here seems to be taking into account is that as of yet, there is not really a proven mass market for tablets. The only thing that has been proven is there is a huge market for iPads. I think there will be other players, but it's not a given. No one ever came up with a real competitor to the iPod except Apple with the iPhone. Many of the iPod competitors were "better" than the iPod, but it didn't matter.

People will always buy phones, but they may not buy tablets. They have been proven to buy iPads.

[Big Mac]

freudling, you seem to be the only one who thinks Windows Phone 7 is going to get anywhere. Most people are calling it a market failure.