[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The age thing has been applied selectivity to Biden, any of the (good) arguments why Biden shouldn’t have run for a second term apply verbatim to Trump.

Republican hypocrisy is at an all time high. I've had some idiot on Twitter today telling me that Kamala lies, that she has no policies, that all the "hoaxes" (facts) about Trump have been debunked, that she will destroy the economy and open the borders and probably some other utter nonsense my brain has decided to erase.

[Waragainstsleep]

Given there have been two attempts on Trump (supposedly), I'm curious why the procedure is if someone where to try again and succeed on election day.
If he were killed (sniper or aneurism) first thing in the morning, and it was announce early, like 8am, would the election continue with Vance being the POTUS candidate in place of Trump? Or would they have to rerun it at a later date with Vance as the candidate?
What if Trump won but died two minutes after the polls closed?

Are their rules covering such an eventuality?

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by subego 

These accomplishments will be quickly forgotten. His legacy is being forced to drop out of the race. This is what will be most associated with him.

I dunno. I rarely hear tallk about him dropping out, unless it’s part of a larger discussion about Trump’s age and obvious mental deterioration. And when I do hear mention of Biden dropping out, it seems to usually be in the vein of Biden being a stand-up kind of guy who puts what’s right for the country first.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

What if Trump won but died two minutes after the polls closed?

Are their rules covering such an eventuality?

I think Vance would probably become the president-elect. At least I think this current SCOTUS would decide that way if it was dropped in their laps.

In the intervening month-and-a-half, though, I think you’d see a very aggressive investigation as to whether Vance had any hand in Trump’s demise.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

These accomplishments will be quickly forgotten. His legacy is being forced to drop out of the race. This is what will be most associated with him.

His legacy will be averting (for the time being) the end of American democracy in form of a second term of Tr*mp's "presidency". And should Harris win, he'll be remembered for doing it twice.

That he's been a rather successful president is already ignored/forgotten.

[reader50]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

What if Trump won but died two minutes after the polls closed?

Are their rules covering such an eventuality?

I believe only the general rules apply. Vance would be the VP-elect until Jan 20. On that day, he'd be sworn in as the VP. The President-elect would fail to appear, leaving the Prez office vacant. So Vance would promptly become Prez per the rules of succession.

If both died after the election and failed to appear on Jan 20, the Speaker of the House would be sworn in as Prez. However, this would get run past SCOTUS before Jan 20.

If both died before the election concluded, making them invalid candidates -- I think the election would go to the highest-voted candidate who was valid. Like if Snoopy were on the ballot, and won the vote. However, I also believe it would be run past SCOTUS before Jan 20 came around.

[christ]

...

[subego]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

And when I do hear mention of Biden dropping out, it seems to usually be in the vein of Biden being a stand-up kind of guy who puts what’s right for the country first.

Putting what’s right for the country first is realizing one needs to drop out before losing the capability to perform in a debate.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

Putting what’s right for the country first is realizing one needs to drop out before losing the capability to perform in a debate.

You're making that sound like it's disagreeing with the comment you're responding to, but it's not.

[subego]

I’m saying Biden did not do what was best for the country.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by subego 

I’m saying Biden did not do what was best for the country.

Yeah he did. Had he dropped out before his public failing in the debate, the response to Harris would not have been even nearly as positive.

Had he done so even earlier in the race, there might have been a whole primary race within the Democratic party, which would have done most of the Republicans' work as candidates attempt to destroy each other before they even run for office. It also would have given them time to prepare a real campaign, as opposed to the embarrassment of the whole world watching Tr*mp flounder and pout as his whole strategy went out the window.

He spent so much time on the shitter coming up with all those mean things to say about Biden, you know.

Whatever strategy maximises the chance of beating Tr*mp is what is best for the country.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Republican hypocrisy is at an all time high. I've had some idiot on Twitter today telling me that Kamala lies, that she has no policies, that all the "hoaxes" (facts) about Trump have been debunked, that she will destroy the economy and open the borders and probably some other utter nonsense my brain has decided to erase.

The problem with that double standard is that it significantly lowers the standards for GOP candidates. You get the Donald Trumps and Roy Moores.

The GOP could have had a Haley-??? ticket, electorally, I would expect that she would have won easily against most Democratic candidates.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Given there have been two attempts on Trump (supposedly), I'm curious why the procedure is if someone where to try again and succeed on election day.

What I find curious is that the shooters were both disaffected Republicans (from what I can tell).

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

I think Vance would probably become the president-elect. At least I think this current SCOTUS would decide that way if it was dropped in their laps.

Yes.
I think Vance saw the VP ticket as an obvious chance to become heir apparent to Trump. He is old enough that there is a good chance (I think around 30 % just going by age) that he will die before the next election.

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

In the intervening month-and-a-half, though, I think you’d see a very aggressive investigation as to whether Vance had any hand in Trump’s demise.

Maybe, but I don't see anyone with enough “credibility” and standing within the Maga movement to take over. Desantis has tried, but he was a horrible national candidate. Haley might be at the top, but it is clear she wants to take the GOP in another, more normal direction.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Putting what’s right for the country first is realizing one needs to drop out before losing the capability to perform in a debate.

Are you talking about Trump or Biden? I'm serious.

The debate between Trump and Harris showed how bad Trump has become. He was easily baited by obvious attempts to derail him and on topics where he is perceived to be stronger than Harris (immigration), he lost himself on ludicrous conspiracy theories.

You could also tell in the first debate, but Biden's F-rated performance distracted from Trump's D-performance.

[subego]

I’m talking about the one who dropped out.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

What I find curious is that the shooters were both disaffected Republicans (from what I can tell).

And all of the Republicans I know believe they were leftists (PRONOUNS WAS/WERE LOLOL!).

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

I’m talking about the one who dropped out.

Yes, I know.
I’m arguing that the same standards should apply to both. And that it doesn’t is the problem.

[Thorzdad]

Thankfully, after today, we can safely watch tv again, without having to endure candidate ads.

I will say, though, that I saw an ad recently for some local/area candidate that actuallt made me giggle. It was similar to one of those “I always voted republican, but this time I’m voting for Kamala” ads. It had this older, gruff, graybeard say the same shtick, but, when he started talking about his candidate’s opponent, he outright called him “batshit crazy.” Of course, the had to bleep “shit” but it did nothing to cover the message. It was, in a way, what I’ve longed for in an ad opposing the current flavor of republican. Just call them what they are, batshit crazy. I had a good chuckle over it.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Joe’s legacy is a smoking crater. That’s his fault.

Stuff like this makes me wonder what your influences are. I'd expect this from the conservative-media-blasted Trump supporters around me, but not from someone that at least claims to have a level head and is able to look at facts at least semi-objectively.

[andi*pandi]

There's been a lot of misinformation and irresponsibility on the press/media from reporting on what has been going right. Intrastructure, chips act, yes inflation was up but it's down again, unemployment low... and what about those low low gas prices? usually low gas prices is good, right? Or are we complaining they aren't at 1986 standards?

[Laminar]

Gas prices were cheaper during the covid dip, so dummies confuse the market returning to normal with Biden coming into office.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Stuff like this makes me wonder what your influences are. I'd expect this from the conservative-media-blasted Trump supporters around me, but not from someone that at least claims to have a level head and is able to look at facts at least semi-objectively.

Hmmm. Let me rephrase it.

What history will remember about Biden is the disastrous and tragic end to his career. It overshadows everything he’s accomplished in his life. His legacy, which should be decades of civil service, is instead a smoking crater.

I think the turbo conservatives mean something else.

[OreoCookie]

Ok, now we have to clarify which Trump term we are talking about. It is hard to believe he got re-elected.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

It is hard to believe he got re-elected.

Living where I do, it’s not exactly hard to believe, but it’s nonetheless disturbing/disillusioning.

[Spheric Harlot]

This is terrifying

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

Living where I do, it’s not exactly hard to believe, but it’s nonetheless disturbing/disillusioning.

Probably you have more insight than I do into why, because it really wrecks my brain.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

This is terrifying

This will have profound impact on global politics. Lots of conservative parties (e. g. in Germany and Japan) have the alliance with the US and everything that comes with it as a cornerstone. They'll have to find something new now.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by subego 

What history will remember about Biden is the disastrous and tragic end to his career. It overshadows everything he’s accomplished in his life. His legacy, which should be decades of civil service, is instead a smoking crater.

Why?

[subego]

Because it was an unprecedented, disastrous tragedy. History takes big note of those.

Being otherwise kind of dull doesn’t help.

[Laminar]

"History"?

[subego]

Can I get more to work with?

[Laminar]

Confidently speaking about how "history will remember" something that's happening right now feels like recency bias.

[subego]

It’s possible, though I note the historical record isn’t immune to recency bias.

Was there some other aspect of his presidency that was as unprecedented, disastrous, and tragic? If not, why would it be more remembered?

[Laminar]

I look at how the view of GW and Obama has evolved and shifted over the past 10-20 years as we've gain the perspective that comes with time, and I find it kind of ridiculous to make such confident, sweeping statements about how future people will feel. It probably feels more ridiculous to me because the confident, sweeping statement is in line with the exact narratives that the extreme media outlets are currently pushing, to the detriment of America's future.

[subego]

What is the extreme media narrative? Is it not Biden’s policy was a disaster for the country? Like, eating cats and shit.

[Laminar]

America is worse off since Biden became president.

[subego]

Well, IMO the country is indeed worse off due to Biden’s implosion.

It’s my mistake for leaving the implications of this unsaid. Had this not happened, the Democrats would have had a stronger campaign against Trump. Perhaps even beating him.

I assume rabid Trump supporters think Biden’s implosion left the country better off, because it helped Trump.

[andi*pandi]

Let's imagine a world where Biden rallies and comes out the day after the bad debate with renewed vigor and pep, and does not step back. He campaigns well, Kamala by his side. Does this Joe win?

To trump supporters does this make a difference? NO. They've already been convinced he's in a coma for 4 years so it does not make any difference at all to them.

Removing the "biden is old" ammo from their arsenal SHOULD have left Trump as the obvious old man slipping. And he has, quite certainly. But again, teflon don could shoot someone on 5th ave and his fans would just say he's their guy and the other guy had it coming.

The art of the con.

[Thorzdad]

Biden’s candidacy was dead after that first debate, and the mass-media “he’s so old and feeble” pile-on. No one was going to vote for him after that, and that was a well-researched certainty. His support dried up. The democratic powers-that-be had no other choice at that point but to get Biden to step down and let (presumably) Harris take over the candidacy.

[Waragainstsleep]

Harris' campaign felt like it was doing really well. Maybe it was just my echo chamber but I was convinced she was going to win comfortably. As she should have.
It's rather odd that 15m democrat votes from 2020 have evaporated this time around. Some Trumpers are claiming its because they were fake votes last time. I'm inclined to think it more likely that Trump's cohorts managed get rid of them this time around.

[Thorzdad]

Trump’s likely FCC chair wrote Project 2025 chapter on how he’d run the agency
~ Brendan Carr wants to preserve data caps, punish NBC, and give money to SpaceX.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

It's rather odd that 15m democrat votes from 2020 have evaporated this time around. Some Trumpers are claiming its because they were fake votes last time. I'm inclined to think it more likely that Trump's cohorts managed get rid of them this time around.

There was a lot of last minute questionable culling of voter rolls in various states, but not 15m.

I have a feeling Israel/Palestine flipped things for a lot of people who are staunch Israel supporters. Dems always tried to thread the needle on that issue, while Trump outright said he’d let Israel “finish the job,” which was a love song to america’s zionists.

Then, of course, there were the millennials and gen-z’s who were only going to vote if their perfect sparkly pony was running. Harris was never going to get enough votes with that crowd because she wasn’t perfect (i.e. didn’t say the right things at the right times about the right issues at whatever moment)

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

I have a feeling Israel/Palestine flipped things for a lot of people who are staunch Israel supporters. Dems always tried to thread the needle on that issue, while Trump outright said he’d let Israel “finish the job,” which was a love song to america’s zionists.

Maybe. But the Trump campaign also managed to simultaneously criticize Harris for the opposite, i. e. being too close to Israel.

My feeling is that we should take a step back and look at strategies and the bigger picture rather than at small pieces. If you have no policy positions but fantastical claims that “everything will be better under me for everyone”, then you are immune to analysis of your actual policy positions.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

Then, of course, there were the millennials and gen-z’s who were only going to vote if their perfect sparkly pony was running. Harris was never going to get enough votes with that crowd because she wasn’t perfect (i.e. didn’t say the right things at the right times about the right issues at whatever moment)

What was the difference in 18-40 turnout from 2020 to 2024?

This data shows a 5% drop in support for Harris in the 18-29 age group (gen Z) while Trump got a 6% bump. Harris lost 1% in the 30-44 (millennial) while Trump stayed level. Are you saying that there was significantly less turnout for Harris?

I'll say this - hard times create activated voters. Activated voters create good times. Good times create apathetic voters. Apathetic voters create hard times.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What was the difference in 18-40 turnout from 2020 to 2024?

This data shows a 5% drop in support for Harris in the 18-29 age group (gen Z) while Trump got a 6% bump. Harris lost 1% in the 30-44 (millennial) while Trump stayed level. Are you saying that there was significantly less turnout for Harris?

Harris had about 15 million fewer votes than Biden in 2020.

Trump had roughly the same number of votes as 2020.

[Waragainstsleep]

I gather that in almost all (if not all) the swing states, the margin by which Trump won the presidential vote was suspiciously similar to the number of votes that voted for him as POTUS but left the rest of the ballot blank. While Dems won a lot of the other races in those states?
Also every state bar two shifted red by 4-8% except Wisconsin which only moved 1%.
Add in the missing 15-20m Dem voters and things are beginning to look a bit iffy.

[Thorzdad]

The numbers are definitely odd, from any perspective. Sadly, if the fix was actually in, on such a monstrously wide scale, we will likely never know. At least I’ll be able to tell my grandchildren that, yes, grandpa voted in the last presidential election the US ever held.

[andi*pandi]

Awful lot of people saying their votes weren't counted.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Harris' campaign felt like it was doing really well. Maybe it was just my echo chamber but I was convinced she was going to win comfortably. As she should have.
It's rather odd that 15m democrat votes from 2020 have evaporated this time around. Some Trumpers are claiming its because they were fake votes last time. I'm inclined to think it more likely that Trump's cohorts managed get rid of them this time around.

This.

Plus guess who's software did the vote counting? Elon Musk. Ya think he's inclined to tip the scales for his main guy who's promised him cool things once elected?!?!?

[subego]

I don’t think that is correct.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

This.

Plus guess who's software did the vote counting? Elon Musk.

This does not sound like something that actually happened.