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ort888 · Jun 30, 2011, 10:12 AM

I wonder when the age of your work buying you a cell phone will end. It seems like kind of an antiquated idea.

It made more sense 10-15 years ago when cell phones were expensive and normal people weren't expected to have one, but now they are everywhere.

My office is weird. We have about 40 employees... and 3 or 4 of them get company cell phones... and each of these people also has their own cell phone and never really use the company phone for anything. Why get them phones? It makes no sense.

Obviously this little gripe has nothing to do with the big picture, but it is dumb.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Paco500

My company, with very few exceptions, provides Blackberries for all employees in the UK. It's not an exaggeration to say that between 10-15% of employees put these Bkackberries in a drawer and use their personal iPhones (there are also a few android phones that know of, but very few).

I work for a Global company and almost every other region supports and provides iPhones. Everyone knows that when the very restrictive contract with Vodafone comes to an end, iPhones will be an option.

I wonder how many other companies there are like us? How much are RIM's numbers being inflated by phones that are bought, activated and then left in a drawer?

One might argue, so what? RIM still sold a phone and gets a license fee for doing nothing. But if my company is not too atypical, this stealth migration on Blackberries may really start to affect their bottom line in a dramatic fashion once existing contracts and licensing agreements start to end in the next year.

This is a good post. The answer... if Blackberries are indeed being bought and shelved in substantial numbers... which I believe they are... it means an abandonment of the product. Of course that's not good for RIM. Development for it starts to curtail because people aren't buying Apps on Blackberry... because they aren't using them...

Look at data about how much the average Blackberry user spends on Apps every month. It's very low. Much lower than Android or iOS.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

I wonder when the age of your work buying you a cell phone will end. It seems like kind of an antiquated idea.

It made more sense 10-15 years ago when cell phones were expensive and normal people weren't expected to have one, but now they are everywhere.

My office is weird. We have about 40 employees... and 3 or 4 of them get company cell phones... and each of these people also has their own cell phone and never really use the company phone for anything. Why get them phones? It makes no sense.

Obviously this little gripe has nothing to do with the big picture, but it is dumb.

I've got an answer why it's sort of dumb to buy people phones at a business, unless there are very specific reasons for it. It's all bcause our general purpose, multi-touch devices/smartphones can be whatever we want them to be through software. A teenager's iPhone can have a bunch of silly social Apps and games on it, yet a business executive walking down the street... his iPhone will have Dropbox, Filemaker Pro Go, Pages... and other business-oriented Apps on it. His iPhone will be an 'enterprise' iPhone, but with other Apps he likes for personal use as well, loaded with videos and music, etc.

The point is there is no business phone anymore. It doesn't exist. We're just using little, general purpose computers now with full flown operating systems and zillions of Apps. 'Company phones' are thus redundant and unnecessary. It's like Steve Jobs said with the unveiling of the iPhone: keyboards don't change to accommodate different software and that is a broken approach to mobile devices. Provide just a clean slate... a large screen with great software and now you've solved that problem. General purpose mobile computers are what we now use...

shifuimam · 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

RIM is making the exact same mistake that Palm did; neglecting their OS. And it's a mistake I'm amazed to see repeated this soon.

The PlayBook is not doing badly, though.

This. We use Verizon BlackBerry Storms at work, and I can't get over how archaic they are compared to other smart phones. Even the Torch sucks.

RIM still has a big market in the enterprise - it seems like right now they're trying to hard to focus on the end-user market. They need to continue to improve the enterprise side, not try to get into a market that's already flooded with Android and iOS, both of which are infinitely superior to the BlackBerry OS.

Originally Posted by freudling

I've got an answer why it's sort of dumb to buy people phones at a business, unless there are very specific reasons for it. It's all bcause our general purpose, multi-touch devices/smartphones can be whatever we want them to be through software.

This is categorically false with BlackBerrys that are managed through an enterprise BES environment. The whole point of these being deployed in a business environment (particularly a large-scale organization) is that they can be completely managed through the BES. You can implement group security policies, wipe and reset and activate phones remotely, and essentially have complete control over what your users are allowed to do with their phones. My work BlackBerry is set up so that I'm not allowed to install any third-party apps, because it's a government-owned device. There's a security policy set up that forces me to have a device password. You can't do this stuff with an iPhone or an Android phone - you *can*, but it's not remotely the same. We've started deploying iPhones using a McAfee iOS application that allows remote management, but the problem is that you can wipe the phone, the app is gone, and now you have a government-owned iPhone with zero limitations. Yes, you can have limited remote control (like remote wiping), but things like activating with a corporate mail environment (keep in mind that a business Exchange server generally doesn't allow just anything to connect to it for push mail) and security policies are just about nonexistent.

Which brings me back to my point that RIM needs to continue to improve their enterprise services, because they fill a pretty critical market that no other phone manufacturer or service provider has tapped into.

nonhuman · Jun 30, 2011, 11:44 AM

Just read this very interesting open letter from a current RIM employee to their senior management, pretty interesting: Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him

Phileas · Jun 30, 2011, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

Which brings me back to my point that RIM needs to continue to improve their enterprise services, because they fill a pretty critical market that no other phone manufacturer or service provider has tapped into.

I am not sure if you read the thread, but the BB enterprise service is fading into irrelevance - with notable exceptions like the one you mentioned. The vast majority of users have no need for server side security to the degree that BB offers - they are just fine with a password protected extranet and regular email.

The BB backend is responsible for the demise of BB, improving it will make no difference at all.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

I am not sure if you read the thread, but the BB enterprise service is fading into irrelevance - with notable exceptions like the one you mentioned. The vast majority of users have no need for server side security to the degree that BB offers - they are just fine with a password protected extranet and regular email.

The BB backend is responsible for the demise of BB, improving it will make no difference at all.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

This. We use Verizon BlackBerry Storms at work, and I can't get over how archaic they are compared to other smart phones. Even the Torch sucks.

RIM still has a big market in the enterprise - it seems like right now they're trying to hard to focus on the end-user market. They need to continue to improve the enterprise side, not try to get into a market that's already flooded with Android and iOS, both of which are infinitely superior to the BlackBerry OS.

This is categorically false with BlackBerrys that are managed through an enterprise BES environment. The whole point of these being deployed in a business environment (particularly a large-scale organization) is that they can be completely managed through the BES. You can implement group security policies, wipe and reset and activate phones remotely, and essentially have complete control over what your users are allowed to do with their phones. My work BlackBerry is set up so that I'm not allowed to install any third-party apps, because it's a government-owned device. There's a security policy set up that forces me to have a device password. You can't do this stuff with an iPhone or an Android phone - you *can*, but it's not remotely the same. We've started deploying iPhones using a McAfee iOS application that allows remote management, but the problem is that you can wipe the phone, the app is gone, and now you have a government-owned iPhone with zero limitations. Yes, you can have limited remote control (like remote wiping), but things like activating with a corporate mail environment (keep in mind that a business Exchange server generally doesn't allow just anything to connect to it for push mail) and security policies are just about nonexistent.

Which brings me back to my point that RIM needs to continue to improve their enterprise services, because they fill a pretty critical market that no other phone manufacturer or service provider has tapped into.

You don't understand. I know BB has security in the way you've described, but now it's a niche product. Instead of just business professionals using smartphones, consumers are now too. And the two 'markets' have converged into one with general purpose, mobile computers now being available to people. What was once 'enterprise grade' technology only reserved for 'enterprise'... most all of that tech is now being held in the hands of consumers.

Thus, the difference between an 'enterprise' device and a 'consumer' device doesn't exist because the devices turn into whatever you want them to be through software. This wasn't the case in RIM's heyday.

The market for smartphones is huge. Whoever gets the most traction wins. RIM is being abandoned by developers and customers because Apple and Google are getting all the traction in the smartphone space.

That's cool if RIM is relegated to a niche product... I doubt it'll be enough to sustain them though. Meanwhile, Google is activating 500,000 Android devices a day, Apple can't keep up with demand for its iPhones and iPads, and RIM is laying off employees.

How is Apple doing in the enterprise, anyway? What is the market saying?

iPad at Work: at The Ottawa Hospital — iPad Insight

Enterprise iPad adoption up to 80 percent in Fortune 100 | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog

From Deutsche Bank on trialling the iPhone in place of Blackberries:

We have been testing iPhone 4 and 3GS hardware running a Good Technologies application for the past 2-3 months to trial enterprise email on iPhone for DB. Our experience has been overwhelmingly positive. Email is served using Microsoft exchange through a Good Technologies interface which looks and feels like accessing a Gmail account on the iPhone. We found enterprise email on iPhone was a fantastic experience as it was easier/faster to access data (touch UI) than on the Blackberry. It was also great to only have to carry one device for personal and corporate email access. There were two drawbacks to the enterprise App on iPhone using Good: 1) ‘pull email’ was limiting as it doesn’t fetch emails in the background (other UIs like MobileIron allow ‘push email’), and 2) the hardware could use a blinking light or some other discreet way to notify user of fresh email. In aggregate, the ability to carry a single device with a great UI and have access to multiple apps (like Bloomberg, for example) far outweighed these issues.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 12:12 PM

Breaking: RIM Exec letter to RIM CEOs:

Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him

SSharon · 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Just read this very interesting open letter from a current RIM employee to their senior management, pretty interesting: Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him

Originally Posted by freudling

Breaking: RIM Exec letter to RIM CEOs:

Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him

The letter is spot on. It seems the higher up you are in a company the more in denial you are about your situation.

edit: I'm watching the Steve Jobs video linked to in the letter and it is amazing how he is basically describing cloud computing in 1997.

imitchellg5 · Jun 30, 2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

I've got an answer why it's sort of dumb to buy people phones at a business, unless there are very specific reasons for it. It's all bcause our general purpose, multi-touch devices/smartphones can be whatever we want them to be through software. A teenager's iPhone can have a bunch of silly social Apps and games on it, yet a business executive walking down the street... his iPhone will have Dropbox, Filemaker Pro Go, Pages... and other business-oriented Apps on it. His iPhone will be an 'enterprise' iPhone, but with other Apps he likes for personal use as well, loaded with videos and music, etc.

The point is there is no business phone anymore. It doesn't exist. We're just using little, general purpose computers now with full flown operating systems and zillions of Apps. 'Company phones' are thus redundant and unnecessary. It's like Steve Jobs said with the unveiling of the iPhone: keyboards don't change to accommodate different software and that is a broken approach to mobile devices. Provide just a clean slate... a large screen with great software and now you've solved that problem. General purpose mobile computers are what we now use...

Yep. You've hit the nail on the head, I think.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 30, 2011, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Yep. You've hit the nail on the head, I think.

Aww, I don't get no credit!

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

The trouble is that the world (read: market) has changed, but RIM hasn't noticed.

Gruber noted quite aptly:

They had a huge hit when "smartphones" were defined as always-on mobile messaging devices. That was something they were really good at.

The iPhone completely redefined the "smartphones" as a mobile computing devices, and RIM simply never quite grokked what that meant.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Aww, I don't get no credit!

A lot of us were alerted to this idea that the iPhone was a general-purpose mobile computing device the day Jobs announced the iPhone. Gruber, others, me... we aren't really original here. Jobs/Apple figured this out.

What I will add to all of this that I don't think is completely apparent to people is the same thing will happen to eReaders like the Kindle... a constrained, limited device that is tied to one very tight platform of software and content. Again, Apple has figured out that a general purpose device is better (the iPad), and one with a colour screen, etc. As Jobs noted, going from a Kindle to the iPad is like going from a black and white TV to a colour one.

Yes, Kindle has been selling great, no doubt. But eventually, most people will have multi-touch tablet computers/smartphones, and they won't be needing eReaders except for very niche things like reading on the beach in Mexico. The reality is an LCD screen/retina display has far more usage scenarios than eInk, which is terrible in low light or even unnatural light... it's slow and choppy and archaic in general. It's great outside with light sitting on a beach chair but that's about it.

But you won't see Apple go there because it's a dead end. Amazon seems to see this a little bit, and while eReaders like the Kindle won't stop taking root in the luggage of Americans on vacations, the main device for reading books, etc. is going to be the general purpose tablet computer. Amazon is now, from what we see, going to release a cheap Android-based tablet. Who will buy it? This is the problem for Amazon. The Barnes and Noble Nook (7" Android tablet) has gotten some traction. They've sold over 3 million I think, and that's pretty good in the tablet space because most tablet makers besides Apple have failed.

But the problem is convincing consumers to spend say $325 on an Amazon tablet running Android when, although it is more expensive, they can have the real deal for $500, $175 more. For something that has way more content, and... wait for it, has a Kindle App with all of your Kindle books on it... it's hard to see a lot of people jumping on an Amazon Android tablet. The cheap Kindle... it'll keep selling for now, with its free whisper-net Internet. But eventually, it's going to die off. The novelty will wear off and most people will have multi-touch tablets and smartphones.

This is what makes me believe business models like Amazon's... tying an eReader to their ecosystem, is dead-in-the water moving forward. The fact that they keep making all these Kindle Apps for every mobile platform shows how their business model is a bit muddled.

The iPad is the disrupter. In fact, I think in the UK more books are being bought and read on the iPad than books on the Kindle. Everybody discounted iBooks in the beginning as having no content but it's exploding.

On that note, I always laugh when I see people with these large eReaders and I just sit back and read books on my iPod Touch with a Retina display in iBooks. When I'm done, it goes in my jeans pocket and I'm listening to all my music, and have full Internet and Email at my fingertips.

The whole concept of a general purpose, multi-touch mobile computer is what the world wants, lusts after, and is buying. Apple has figured this out entirely and beautifully, but nobody else seems to be able to understand this.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 30, 2011, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

it's hard to see a lot of people jumping on an Amazon Android tablet. The cheap Kindle... it'll keep selling for now, with its free whisper-net Internet. But eventually, it's going to die off. The novelty will wear off and most people will have multi-touch tablets and smartphones.

This is what makes me believe business models like Amazon's... tying an eReader to their ecosystem, is dead-in-the water moving forward. The fact that they keep making all these Kindle Apps for every mobile platform shows how their business model is a bit muddled.

Not necessarily, IMO.

Because, by the time the platform is obsoleted, people will be invested in the infrastructure and ecosystem.

Amazon's business model is selling content, not devices.

As such, it's the complete opposite of Apple's.

imitchellg5 · Jun 30, 2011, 03:44 PM

I love my Kindle. For someone who reads as much as I do, reading on a backlit LCD isn't even an option, really.

nonhuman · Jun 30, 2011, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

The reality is an LCD screen/retina display has far more usage scenarios than eInk, which is terrible in low light or even unnatural light... it's slow and choppy and archaic in general. It's great outside with light sitting on a beach chair but that's about it.

Assuming that eInk technology (or something that replaces it) doesn't continue to advance just as LCD and tablet technology does. Something which is certain to not be the case.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Assuming that eInk technology (or something that replaces it) doesn't continue to advance just as LCD and tablet technology does. Something which is certain to not be the case.

BS. We've all been waiting for all these advances to come with eInk and it hasn't happened. Pixel Qi screens? Ya, not happening. Turns out colour eInk screens with a backlight simply cannot compete with current LCD technology. Washed out colours, slow, choppy, etc.

No, LCD will continue to advance. Apple's use of the retina display, for example, and not eInk/Pixel Qi is testament to that. The fact that Amazon is going to release a colour LCD Android tablet also is because eInk advancements just haven't happened in the way they would have liked... and that's coming right from Amazon's mouth.

I've looked into the R&D and there's some interesting stuff but it's just not good enough to compete with existing, widely used technologies like LCD and AMOLED.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

I love my Kindle. For someone who reads as much as I do, reading on a backlit LCD isn't even an option, really.

I hear this often... there seems to be polarized camps here... people who love eInk reading and hate LCD reading... or people who hate eInk experiences entirely and stick with LCD.

For me, I love Apple's creme-colored background and I always turn down the brightness to a low setting when I'm reading. I don't get eye strain.

This coming from someone who embraced eReaders years ago, particularly the Sony line. I've owned some, done research on them... testing... public library stuff... In the end, my Sony Touch Reader just sits on the shelf. Sure, it's cool for the odd trip on the beach, but in the end, it just doesn't get used.

Phileas · Jun 30, 2011, 04:37 PM

I've got to say, I love my Kindle because of it's limitations.

It's a reading device, and apart from an incredibly shitty UI, it does that one job exceedingly well. No distractions, easy to read even in direct sunlight. I find that I sleep better after reading a book on the Kindle, rather than the iPad - because no light shines into your retina your brain's sleep timer doesn't get confused.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Not necessarily, IMO.

Because, by the time the platform is obsoleted, people will be invested in the infrastructure and ecosystem.

Amazon's business model is selling content, not devices.

As such, it's the complete opposite of Apple's.

I'm surprised you would think that Apple's business is not selling content after all the years you've been involved in the Apple community. Without iTunes, Apple is empty. No music. No movies. No TV shows. No Apps. No books. No Apple TV. No anything. It's precisely the fact that Apple has content, in addition to great software and hardware, that they're winning. Others are struggling with a lack of content and Apps like RIM and HP with webOS. And any newcomers to this space will struggle because of all of the content available on iOS and Android. Content is king.

As for being 'bought into' Amazon's world... doesn't make sense to me. You're not locked into using the Kindle to read Kindle books for example. You can read them on the iPad with the Kindle App, the Galaxy Tab with the Kindle App for Android, etc.

And what else does Amazon sell? Movies and groceries and everything else. Thus, nobody gets locked into Amazon. It's not like years ago when we invested all this money in software for one platform... times have changed, and people can easily move around with their stuff.

nonhuman · Jun 30, 2011, 04:40 PM

RIM has responded to the open letter: RIM’s Response to “Open Letter” �Inside BlackBerry - The Official BlackBerry Blog

My take: blah blah blah, the PR department wrote this.

ort888 · Jun 30, 2011, 04:41 PM

The content is an important part of the Apple experience, but I don't think the content itself makes them that much money.

Spheric Harlot · Jun 30, 2011, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

I'm surprised you would think that Apple's business is not selling content after all the years you've been involved in the Apple community. Without iTunes, Apple is empty. No music. No movies. No TV shows. No Apps. No books. No Apple TV. No anything. It's precisely the fact that Apple has content, in addition to great software and hardware, that they're winning. Others are struggling with a lack of content and Apps like RIM and HP with webOS. And any newcomers to this space will struggle because of all of the content available on iOS and Android. Content is king.

I'm surprised this needs explaining:

Follow the revenue, and the profits.

Apple sells content — music, movies, and software — primarily to sell hardware.

Amazon sells the Kindle to tie people to its content infrastructure.

nonhuman · Jun 30, 2011, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

BS. We've all been waiting for all these advances to come with eInk and it hasn't happened. Pixel Qi screens? Ya, not happening. Turns out colour eInk screens with a backlight simply cannot compete with current LCD technology. Washed out colours, slow, choppy, etc.

No, LCD will continue to advance. Apple's use of the retina display, for example, and not eInk/Pixel Qi is testament to that. The fact that Amazon is going to release a colour LCD Android tablet also is because eInk advancements just haven't happened in the way they would have liked... and that's coming right from Amazon's mouth.

I've looked into the R&D and there's some interesting stuff but it's just not good enough to compete with existing, widely used technologies like LCD and AMOLED.

It hasn't happened yet. eInk will continue to develop, and/or something even better will come along. I'm not saying eInk is going to completely replaced LCDs, or that LCDs won't also continue to advance, but it's insane to stake a claim on a technology not continuing to advance.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Phileas

I've got to say, I love my Kindle because of it's limitations.

It's a reading device, and apart from an incredibly shitty UI, it does that one job exceedingly well. No distractions, easy to read even in direct sunlight. I find that I sleep better after reading a book on the Kindle, rather than the iPad - because no light shines into your retina your brain's sleep timer doesn't get confused.

I agree with this, except that overall, the environments that an iPad can/will be used in with its LCD... it's better to have that LCD on there.

But ya, I see some data right now where people are owning both an eReader and an iPad. I just think moving forward eReaders are going to die off where devices like the iPad become the killer go-to device for reading, surfing the Web, and so forth.

imitchellg5 · Jun 30, 2011, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

I hear this often... there seems to be polarized camps here... people who love eInk reading and hate LCD reading... or people who hate eInk experiences entirely and stick with LCD.

For me, I love Apple's creme-colored background and I always turn down the brightness to a low setting when I'm reading. I don't get eye strain.

This coming from someone who embraced eReaders years ago, particularly the Sony line. I've owned some, done research on them... testing... public library stuff... In the end, my Sony Touch Reader just sits on the shelf. Sure, it's cool for the odd trip on the beach, but in the end, it just doesn't get used.

For me, the eyestrain seems to be about the same as a regular book for the Kindle. But, another reason I love the Kindle is the battery life. I simply can't read as long on an iPad as I can on my Kindle. And I have to say, that the Kindle is one of my all-time favorite devices, because it's so simple, and does only one thing, and does it so well.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

The content is an important part of the Apple experience, but I don't think the content itself makes them that much money.

I don't know how much they make on the content, but the point is that the content is a big draw to their devices and iOS.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

It hasn't happened yet. eInk will continue to develop, and/or something even better will come along. I'm not saying eInk is going to completely replaced LCDs, or that LCDs won't also continue to advance, but it's insane to stake a claim on a technology not continuing to advance.

Show me the tech. I'd love to see even hints of eInk challenging what's happening with LCDs and AMOLEDS.

I've seen, heard, and read about eInk stuff 5 years out. The actual technology of eInk won't get you to where I think you think it will.

Pixel Qi was supposed to put eInk on the map in a big way, but eInk... the actual technology itself... will not provide the deep, rich, vibrancy found on LCDs/AMOLEDs.

As Phileas said, the Kindle/eInk is good at one thing... and it does it well. eInk is good for what it does, but very limited and thus not suitable for devices like smartphones, laptops, tablets, etc. It doesn't mean it doesn't have its place.

We're going to see many more breakthroughs with LCDs, and it's going to get transferred to consumer devices. Apple's "Retina" display is one example.

From Sony's pioneering flexible LCD research, to all the exciting things happening with AMOLED. You can imagine one situation where flexible LCDs could be deployed: a large sheet that's a newspaper.

freudling · Jun 30, 2011, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

RIM has responded to the open letter: RIM’s Response to “Open Letter” �Inside BlackBerry - The Official BlackBerry Blog

My take: blah blah blah, the PR department wrote this.

Not a good reply, but predictable. RIM is now just totally reactionary and wayward. What worldly company would respond with a PR release really this fast over something like this? Just let the headlines pass and ignore it. By questioning whether the person is a high-level employee, and challenging it in the sense that why wouldn't the person just confront management themselves? It's all pretty clear: you can't approach management because they're unapproachable, and you threaten your own well being in the company if you do.

I thought RIM's astroturfers were bad enough, but this PR reaction just adds another layer to my concern cake.

freudling · Jul 1, 2011, 08:54 AM

RIM just dumped $770 million on Nortel patents.

They may end up just like Nortel though-the two seem awfully similar:

"Nortel was the biggest telecommunication company in the world in 2000 with sales of more than $30 billion. Even after accounting scandals and mismanagement, it was generating $11 billion in sales in 2008. It filed for bankrutpcy in January 2009 and has been trying to wind up business."

Salty · Jul 1, 2011, 07:23 PM

The question is, does RIM have enough cash on hand to stave off bankruptcy either way? I mean I realize they have cash, but it'll be at least two years before QNX doesn't suck with teeth.

Wiskedjak · Jul 1, 2011, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by freudling

RIM just dumped $770 million on Nortel patents.

They may end up just like Nortel though-the two seem awfully similar:

I've been thinking the same thing. RIM's death could be equally long and painful.

freudling · Jul 1, 2011, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Salty

The question is, does RIM have enough cash on hand to stave off bankruptcy either way? I mean I realize they have cash, but it'll be at least two years before QNX doesn't suck with teeth.

Good question. I think they have $3 billion on hand. -$770 million?

Lateralus · Jul 2, 2011, 02:10 AM

$2.5bn, approximately. And they're still profitable with no sign of that changing drastically in the next 2 years. So I think talk of bankruptcy in the immediate future is a bit silly.

freudling · 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Lateralus

$2.5bn, approximately. And they're still profitable with no sign of that changing drastically in the next 2 years. So I think talk of bankruptcy in the immediate future is a bit silly.

Nobody knows the future here for certain. But it doesn't matter if they're profitable right now. This is the tech industry and things change at lightspeed.

Nortel is an example of a company that went from profitable to bankrupt in a year.

There're all kinds of indicators about RIM moving forward. And they're not good. Employees lambasting the company publicly. The Playbook isn't catching yet, and seems to be headed dowm a similiar path like most of the iPad's competition. This for the time being blows their QNX transition strategy. And QNX is a mess from a development standpoint. And battery life on it is still problematic. A 3G version in testing I heard is only getting 3 hours... notice how they don't have a 3G version out?

Their phones must change radically if/when they port over QNX. And that's a massive undertaking and a complete departure from their brand. These QNX phones won't really be Blackberries anymore... they'll simply be competing with slate phones from HTC, Apple and others. Not easy.

Now... their earnings call. Did you know their revenues are up 16% year-over-year? Did you also know their profits are down $50 million year-over-year? The increased revenues are from global expansion, but they're less profitable and are $700 million short on sales this quarter. Layoffs have begun.

From all this and more, many of us expect the damage the iPhone and Android have done to their market to be hard to recover from... that they're going to continue to slide both in profits and marketshare.

New products are delayed and not compelling at all. Developers are abandoning the BB platform and some publicly loathe the QNX platform. The problem for RIM is... it's a sinking ship right now and they've been caught resting on their laurels. This is why some think it's too late. Ya, they can keep selling BBs to older people but RIM as we know them won't be but a niche product at that point. A shadow of its former self. I know they have traction with some young people because of BBM but having peaked into Apple's iMessage, BBM is no longer a market differentiator for them. And we all know how much young people like iPod Touches. You don't even need a phone number to communicate with iMessage. Then there's iCloud, WP7 and the Nokia N9... it just gets worse and worse for RIM moving forward.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 2, 2011, 05:02 AM

Pretty awesome Analysis from December, but still holds true, near as I can tell:

Mobile Opportunity: RIM's Q3 Financials: A Tale of Two BlackBerries

Phileas · Jul 2, 2011, 07:00 AM

Fom the article spheric posted:

I think there's going to be a strong appetite for web fidelity and tool familiarity. And I think there's going to be a rapid desire for high performance, and I think we are way ahead on that. I think, CIO friendliness is...we are way ahead on that

Meanwhile, in the real world, web usage is shrinking, actually the web as we know it has been shrinking for the first time in 2011, and app usage is exploding. Nobody under the age of 30 gives a hoot about tool familiarity, mainly because the tools he's referencing are hopelessly out of date. Reading these kind of statements feels like listening to the pope giving advice on family planning.

Then he goes on to position CIO friendliness as a stregth, which is a huge part of the reason why BB is in trouble. It's not about CIOs anymore, it's all about the consumer these days. It's the consumer who has been bugging CIOs to support their iPhones and Android phones, it's the consumer who has started using iPads, it's the consumer who is leading this change. And they still haven't got this.

Wiskedjak · Jul 2, 2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

I know they have traction with some young people because of BBM but having peaked into Apple's iMessage, BBM is no longer a market differentiator for them. And we all know how much young people like iPod Touches. You don't even need a phone number to communicate with iMessage.

One of the main reasons BBM is popular with young people is cost. BBM + a low end BlackBerry = a low cost messaging platform. iMessage doesn't compete with that. Even on an iPod Touch, you'll have to run around looking for WiFi hotspots. This is probably the market that will help prolong RIM's death spiral.

Wiskedjak · Jul 2, 2011, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Meanwhile, in the real world, web usage is shrinking, actually the web as we know it has been shrinking for the first time in 2011, and app usage is exploding.

Actually, in many cases, app usage is still web usage, just through very customized and task-specific browsers.

A more accurate statement could be that usage of the general browser (Firefox, Safari, IE) is shrinking while the usage of task-specific browsers (not really browsers anymore at this point), such as Instagram, Twitter app, Facebook app, Wunderlist, Urbanspoon, etc., is increasing.

It wouldn't surprise me to see things swing back to the browser as HTML5 evolves to offer more app-like experiences. Of course, none of this helps RIM at all, since most of their devices suck with both native apps and web apps.

freudling · Jul 2, 2011, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

One of the main reasons BBM is popular with young people is cost. BBM + a low end BlackBerry = a low cost messaging platform. iMessage doesn't compete with that. Even on an iPod Touch, you'll have to run around looking for WiFi hotspots. This is probably the market that will help prolong RIM's death spiral.

ort888 · Jul 2, 2011, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

One of the main reasons BBM is popular with young people is cost. BBM + a low end BlackBerry = a low cost messaging platform. iMessage doesn't compete with that. Even on an iPod Touch, you'll have to run around looking for WiFi hotspots. This is probably the market that will help prolong RIM's death spiral.

You can get an iPhone for $50 bucks now. Rumors are swirling about apple launching a low cost iPhone as well, so I think there will always be a super cheap or even free iPhone option from here on out. If Apple can get on A few more carriers and keep the price of an entry level iPhone to 50 or less they can make a huge dent on the low end android/blackberry/feature phone market.

freudling · Jul 2, 2011, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Phileas

Fom the article spheric posted:

Meanwhile, in the real world, web usage is shrinking, actually the web as we know it has been shrinking for the first time in 2011, and app usage is exploding. Nobody under the age of 30 gives a hoot about tool familiarity, mainly because the tools he's referencing are hopelessly out of date. Reading these kind of statements feels like listening to the pope giving advice on family planning.

Then he goes on to position CIO friendliness as a stregth, which is a huge part of the reason why BB is in trouble. It's not about CIOs anymore, it's all about the consumer these days. It's the consumer who has been bugging CIOs to support their iPhones and Android phones, it's the consumer who has started using iPads, it's the consumer who is leading this change. And they still haven't got this.

Cold Warrior · Jul 3, 2011, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by shifuimam

This is categorically false with BlackBerrys that are managed through an enterprise BES environment. The whole point of these being deployed in a business environment (particularly a large-scale organization) is that they can be completely managed through the BES. You can implement group security policies, wipe and reset and activate phones remotely, and essentially have complete control over what your users are allowed to do with their phones. My work BlackBerry is set up so that I'm not allowed to install any third-party apps, because it's a government-owned device. There's a security policy set up that forces me to have a device password. You can't do this stuff with an iPhone or an Android phone - you *can*, but it's not remotely the same. We've started deploying iPhones using a McAfee iOS application that allows remote management, but the problem is that you can wipe the phone, the app is gone, and now you have a government-owned iPhone with zero limitations. Yes, you can have limited remote control (like remote wiping), but things like activating with a corporate mail environment (keep in mind that a business Exchange server generally doesn't allow just anything to connect to it for push mail) and security policies are just about nonexistent.

Which brings me back to my point that RIM needs to continue to improve their enterprise services, because they fill a pretty critical market that no other phone manufacturer or service provider has tapped into.

In what areas are Apple's iPhone enterprise options not good enough? Their policies allow app install restrictions. An iPhone connected to an exchange server will obey a variety of its policies (including passcode requirements, time until passcode lock, # of invalid attempts until wipe, etc. Exchange can be configured in the iPhone Configuration Utility and deployed. VPN and proxy settings are also easily configured and provisioned so that all traffic could route back through the corporate vpn and/or proxy for data security. If you wipe a government phone, it's not a gov phone with no limitations. If wiped, it'd lose security settings and data. With proxy or vpn enforced, the wiped phone can't get back in, so it's just a regular voice phone. There are far more security options in the link below.

Just because government IT is behind the times doesn't mean iPhone somehow falls short. All the tools are there to protect one's network and data, inasmuch as any mobile device allows. It really means government contractors only get to work in accordance with their statement of work, and the gov civilians in charge are absentee landlords, dinosaurs counting down the days until retirement.

Apple - Support - iPhone - Enterprise
Apple - iPhone - iPhone in Business - Resources
http://images.apple.com/iphone/busin...e_Security.pdf

Wiskedjak · Jul 3, 2011, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by ort888

You can get an iPhone for $50 bucks now. Rumors are swirling about apple launching a low cost iPhone as well, so I think there will always be a super cheap or even free iPhone option from here on out. If Apple can get on A few more carriers and keep the price of an entry level iPhone to 50 or less they can make a huge dent on the low end android/blackberry/feature phone market.

It's more about the cost of the service plan than the cost of the device. BBM is a super-cheap messaging system. Unless the carriers offer iMessage-only plans, BBM will continue to be popular among students.

Waragainstsleep · Jul 3, 2011, 10:20 AM

IOS Enterprise features are easily good enough in most respects and massively better in one. If you have ever tried to install a BES Server you'll know what I mean. They are a monumental pain in the ass.

freudling · Jul 3, 2011, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

It's more about the cost of the service plan than the cost of the device. BBM is a super-cheap messaging system. Unless the carriers offer iMessage-only plans, BBM will continue to be popular among students.

iMessage is free. It's disruptive in this way. Works over wifi and you don't need any kind of cell plan to use it. Don't even need an iPhone. iPad and iPod Touch will work. FaceTime rounds out iMessage. You can thus get a total bare bones plan with an iPhone and use iMessage as much as you want. Send 10,000 texts if you want. Doesn't cost anything.

Wiskedjak · Jul 3, 2011, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

iMessage is free. It's disruptive in this way. Works over wifi and you don't need any kind of cell plan to use it. Don't even need an iPhone. iPad and iPod Touch will work. FaceTime rounds out iMessage. You can thus get a total bare bones plan with an iPhone and use iMessage as much as you want. Send 10,000 texts if you want. Doesn't cost anything.

iMessage still requires a data connection. THAT isn't free. And, a BBM plan is probably cheaper than THAT (if you want the convenience of messaging everywhere, rather than having to wait until you have wifi coverage).

OreoCookie · Jul 3, 2011, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

iMessage still requires a data connection. THAT isn't free. And, a BBM plan is probably cheaper than THAT (if you want the convenience of messaging everywhere, rather than having to wait until you have wifi coverage).

… and you really think the data costs (usually measured in hundreds of MB or GB) will outweigh the costs for SMS (usually a double-digit amount of cents per 160 character message)? I doubt it.

Cold Warrior · Jul 3, 2011, 11:51 AM

And with videos and pictures, it's MMS, which can be billed separately.

freudling · Jul 3, 2011, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

iMessage still requires a data connection. THAT isn't free. And, a BBM plan is probably cheaper than THAT (if you want the convenience of messaging everywhere, rather than having to wait until you have wifi coverage).

If by data connection you mean 3G. iMessage does not require a data connection. The huge advantage with iMessage is it's not just text, it's video and pictures and group chat with read receipts all with the ability to do this without the need for any phone or cell plan whatever. But if you have a phone it'll work too. iMessage was RIM's worst fear according to someone with inside info on them.