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ShotgunEd · Jan 5, 2006, 10:19 AM

Ok, I really need a new job, I graduated from uni with a Honours Degree in Computer Science in June and I've been working in a temporary admin post since.

I've applied to maybe 30 jobs, interviewed for maybe 7 and I'm still stuck here.

I'm making a major push for jobs as a new year's resolution but it seems I've only got the qualifications and experience for a small number of jobs.

My question is, do I lie on my Resumé/CV and apply for jobs I have no training for or experience in? Or do I embellish a little, say I've got experience in programming languages I've never used? Maybe make up some companies I've worked for and give a friend's name as a false reference?

What are your experiences?

Timo · Jan 5, 2006, 10:26 AM

It's not worth it. If you get caught, you'll be canned.

Paco500 · Jan 5, 2006, 10:45 AM

There is lying and there is spin. Outright lying is a bad idea because as you will learn, the tech world often turns out to be pretty small and well connected. If you get caught, it might not only screw things up with one opportunity, but haunt you down the road as well.

I think a bit of stretching or massaging the the facts, as long as it is feasibly defensible, is ok.

For example:

I was director of IT for a small/mid-sized law firm- ~25 attorneys, and on an org-chart (in my mind as no such document actually existed), I only had two techs reporting to me. However, I regularly utilized another 5 clerks with technical skills for special projects when they were not doing work for the attorneys. So even though the did not technically report to me, and on average I had use of the only 10-15 hours a week (cumulative, not each), my resume stated I supervised a staff of 7.

For the record, as soon as I think this kind of stretch is no longer valuable (the next job I actually had a staff of 15 under me), I remove it from the resume. It's a careful balancing act.

Which is sort of true and defensible, but not entirely accurate.

Just one example.

Mastrap · 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Timo

It's not worth it. If you get caught, you'll be canned.

This is the truth.

Edit: Damn database.

ism · Jan 5, 2006, 10:46 AM

My advice would be:

Don't lie to actual companies. Feel free to lie through your teeth to the agencies, avoid them if you can, but sometimes it's hard.

It's not what you know, but who you know. My first job was through a company that had close links with the uni I graduated from. Second job was through a friend. Third is because it's the same industry as the second (a supplier company to that second job).

Never ever let anyone tell you that you are inexperienced or don't have the required skills, etc. It's an excuse to pay you less or to not put you forward for a job. Don't let anyone play down whatever exeprience you've got.

Fight and pester job agencies for interviews, afterall they pester you enough.

If you find a new job can you get one for me as well? Not bothered what it is, as long as it's not engineering.

ort888 · Jan 5, 2006, 11:10 AM

I didn't lie on my resume, but my entire portfolio was full of fake pieces. Sure, I actually made them myself, but none of them were for real clients or companies.

rickey939 · Jan 5, 2006, 11:18 AM

No.

typoon · Jan 5, 2006, 11:43 AM

It's a bad Idea to lie on your resume but embellishment is okay. Outright lying if you get caught it would be harder for you to get a job if other potential employers found out. For example here at my office I'm the "Mac guy" on my resume I usually word it as Macintosh Specialist, even though we don't really have a position with that title here. If you put something down on your resume be sure to you are able to back it up. either through your knowledge or through your work(s).

Dork. · Jan 5, 2006, 11:50 AM

Aargh! The database ate my very astute and informative post, so here's the short, half-assed version:

When you embellish on your resume, your goal should be to get it past the resume "filters" like agencies and HR departments who don't know the job and only look for keywords. But once the resume gets to the hiring managers' desk, he or she can smell bs from a mile away. Be honest about what you have done in an interview, because if you're not the manager can tell. But try to promote yourself -- don't focus on what you can't do, but focus on what you can do in the open position given your background and experience.

And what typoon said about backing up everything you put on your resume is very important, especially with references. If you flat-out lie on your resume, the hiring manager can usually tell when he or she talks to your references. There's a fine line between self-promotion and lying, Brownie.

Cody Dawg · Jan 5, 2006, 11:56 AM

No, don't lie. You can state, "Interest in ...." Or, "Currently learning..."

I once interviewed a guy who claimed to have all kinds of experience with newspaper HTML and advertising. Claimed to have Mac experience too. I was really excited to interview him. REALLY nice guy. I liked him. But then I found out that he'd basically just fabricated a lot of critical experience.

I would have hired him without the experience, but here's the deal: He lied on his resume and what else will he lie about?

That blew it for him, period.

It wasn't the lack of experience it was the lie(s) of having experience and I can't trust a liar.

ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH BUT EXPRESS AN INTEREST IN A FIELD OR SKILL IF YOU THINK THAT IS CRITICAL TO THE POTENTIAL EMPLOYER.

Who knows...the employer may pay for your skill development or education in that area of expertise. I would have - but not for a liar.

PB2K · Jan 5, 2006, 12:05 PM

There was this hired guy who confessed me that he made up a lot of skills on his test..what a bum

Makes me wish to confront him one day and say : " So, we have a Colossus computermachine in the basement and it needs to be migrated from COBOL to FORTAN, get on the job and don't leave till its finished "

andi*pandi · Jan 5, 2006, 12:06 PM

nope.

ShotgunEd · Jan 5, 2006, 04:55 PM

Thanks for all the responses people.

My current job is an admin job, I do a certain amount of IT work outside of my remit, and I get on really well with my line manager, thus I'm in the position of being able to say I have programmed a web application in asp.net for example, and have my current employer back me up when they are contacted as a reference.

I also have some contacts in the publishing industry over here, so I can get them to say I've done stuff that I never have.

I do agree though, embellishing upon what you have is ok, but outright making stuff up probably isn't a good idea. I may have studied cobol at uni, but I'm not prepared to meet colossus just yet

Kevin · Jan 5, 2006, 04:58 PM

No.. I didn't even apply for this job. The owner called me.

dav · Jan 5, 2006, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

No.. I didn't even apply for this job. The owner called me.

my last and current job were unsolicited offers.

no, i've never lied or intentionally embellished on a resume.

Leia's Left Bun · Jan 5, 2006, 05:38 PM

I never embellish or make stuff up.

To be honest though I don't think many read it over that well, they just look for company names and are more interested in looking at my online portfolio.

wdlove · Jan 5, 2006, 07:11 PM

I have always tried to be honest. With nursing jobs it has always been easy. Getting caught can be a disaster.

krillbee · Jan 6, 2006, 04:42 AM

what if you got fired from a job previously, but you do not mention that on a resume. (say it happened while you were working another job or in college or something, therefore there wouldnt be any gaps in your resume.)

suppose you just dont mention the job at all that you got fired from. Or what if they ask the question "have you ever been fired from a job previously?" and you say no.

Could that put you into serious trouble?

Xeo · Jan 6, 2006, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

I never embellish or make stuff up.

To be honest though I don't think many read it over that well, they just look for company names and are more interested in looking at my online portfolio.

I think that's one of the major differences between tech jobs and design jobs. Anything in the computer field requires actual job experience or they just throw your resume away. Anything in the art field requires a good portfolio. My friends are art majors and they aren't growing their portfolio by much. I'm afraid for them they won't stand a chance when they graduate to get any job they are interested in. Saying, "I have an art degree," to a company means nothing. They want to see what you can do. (I think.)

Anyway, my only embellishments were stating any programming language I've ever had, even if only 10 min of experience with. If I knew the syntax, it was on my resume. But that's all you really need to know with a new language anyway. Looking up the functions only slows you down... you can still code in it just fine.

That said, my new job is using Java which I'm pretty comfortable with. I think I am, anyway... I haven't used it in 7 months. I hope I'm not too rusty.

Face Ache · Jan 6, 2006, 05:19 AM

I stretched the truth and called a few failures successes and now I'm the President of the USA!

Or am I?

Ask me how! Only $10,000!

d.fine · Jan 6, 2006, 08:05 AM

No!

macroy · Jan 6, 2006, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by krillbee

what if you got fired from a job previously, but you do not mention that on a resume. (say it happened while you were working another job or in college or something, therefore there wouldnt be any gaps in your resume.)

suppose you just dont mention the job at all that you got fired from. Or what if they ask the question "have you ever been fired from a job previously?" and you say no.

Could that put you into serious trouble?

If this job (from which you were fired from) is relevant to the one you are applying for, and if you learned some good skills, I'd still leave it on (you don't usually include the reason why you left on your resume do you?). If you have small gaps, simply use years to describe your stay - i.e "Acme Inc, 2000-2002" and your next job may be "Apple, 2002-Present". But you may have had a period of unemployment (or a job you left) between May and June of 2002 - No one has to know.

HOWEVER, I'd strongly caution against outright lying if you are asked a direct question. If you're asked if you've ever been fired, I'd come clean and explain. You may not get the job, but its still better than getting it, have them find out, and firing you. Cuz' now, you've got two jobs you've been fired from.

ebuddy · Jan 6, 2006, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by ism

My advice would be:

Don't lie to actual companies. Feel free to lie through your teeth to the agencies, avoid them if you can, but sometimes it's hard.

It's not what you know, but who you know. My first job was through a company that had close links with the uni I graduated from. Second job was through a friend. Third is because it's the same industry as the second (a supplier company to that second job).

Never ever let anyone tell you that you are inexperienced or don't have the required skills, etc. It's an excuse to pay you less or to not put you forward for a job. Don't let anyone play down whatever exeprience you've got.

Fight and pester job agencies for interviews, afterall they pester you enough.

If you find a new job can you get one for me as well? Not bothered what it is, as long as it's not engineering.

I agree with all of the above. The first idea was the one I was going to offer 'til you did.

I'd recommend talking to the folks/advisors at the University. Talk to several of the instructors that helped you get the education you have and ask them what they think. Ism, you also nailed it with "it's who you know". IMO; one thing they don't teach well enough in school is how to effectively network with other people of "like" interests. Build business relationships by talking with other students w/ same major. Talk to people in the industries you're trying to enter. You'll have to take a quick step back, build a small trampoline of relationships and one of them will spring you my man.

production_coordinator · Jan 6, 2006, 10:14 AM

Lie, NEVER

Be honest, but don't undersell. Also, make the projects you are working on sound FANTASTIC...

Oisín · Jan 6, 2006, 10:22 AM

It’s a fine line between merely selling yourself and embellishing on your abilities. It’s also very job-specific. For a few CV’s I’ve sent out with various job applications, I have stated that I am a “super power user” (very popular term here) of both Windows and OS X. I don’t really consider myself that way, but the jobs I was applying for were all the type of job where you’d be working on a computer all day, but they were not directly computer-related. As it happened, at the one job I did get, it was never questioned: all my colleagues did in fact consider me to be the office computer magician, simply because they were very basic computer users. If, on the other hand, I were applying for a job as a system admin (which I wouldn’t do, since I’m in no way qualified for that kind of job), I would never have called myself a “super power user”, but a “medium-level user” instead.

Similarly, in a previous job I had, working as a temp in a bank, I had no qualms about claiming to “speak” some languages that I could actually only hold up a simple conversation in, because I knew it was not going to be an important part of the job, only something that might (and did, in fact) come in handy a few times here and there. In comparison, when I was applying for a job which was basically all about calling people abroad and talking to them in their native languages, I made sure to specify that my spoken Spanish is not fluent, and that discussing car engine reparations with barely understandable Spanish mechanics was something I’d need some additional training to be able to do.

So basically, I think it’s acceptable to embellish a little on abilities that are secondary to the job you’re applying for, and will, if anything, merely act as a bit of ‘eye-candy’; but for crucial abilities, you should always give a concise and honest description of your abilities.

ShotgunEd · Jan 6, 2006, 10:58 AM

Hey Oisín,

Thanks, your advice makes a lot of sense.

Today i was contacted by a recruitment agency and the guy had read my CV and was saying yeah, all looks good we have a couple of IT Admin posts that you'd be perfect for yadda yadda.

He then asks, "Can you drive", I say, "Yes, but I don't have a car".

The conversation totally changed and he said "ah, that'll be a problem, these jobs are usually only open to people with access to a car".

I could have lied, got my foot in the door of the company and showed them that I'm brilliant, but now I'll never interview because I was honest.

From now on I'm a quad-lingual stunt driver with 100 years experience managing a staff of eleventy billion.

Wanna hire me?

Tesseract · Jan 6, 2006, 10:59 AM

No.

Mastrap · Jan 6, 2006, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by ShotgunEd

I could have lied, got my foot in the door of the company and showed them that I'm brilliant, but now I'll never interview because I was honest.

Just tell them that you'll buy a car should the job demand it. Where's the problem?
Not to get an interview for a job you otherwise qualify for just because you currently don't own a car is just insane.

ism · Jan 6, 2006, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Not to get an interview for a job you otherwise qualify for just because you currently don't own a car is just insane.

Aaah, but this is a Job Agency. Hence why lying through your teeth is compulsory.

ShotgunEd · Jan 6, 2006, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Just tell them that you'll buy a car should the job demand it. Where's the problem?
Not to get an interview for a job you otherwise qualify for just because you currently don't own a car is just insane.

I'm meeting the recruiter on Monday, I'll maybe try that on him.

Unfortunately a lot of jobs require you to have a car before they'll interview you.

Mastrap · Jan 6, 2006, 11:42 AM

In which case I would tell them what they want to hear. Always assuming that you are in a position to actually buy a car should you need one.

ghporter · Jan 6, 2006, 12:01 PM

Tell the truth. You need not tell "all the truth," but make everything you say factual. Did you get an introduction to Ada in school? Or Fortran and COBOL? Then you are "familiar" with them. On the other hand, point out how much real code you have written in which languages. This shows that when someone talks to you about a "paragraph" or "sentence" you'll know which language they're talking about (that's COBOL, right?), but does not say "I'm MISTER Ada PROGRAMMER!"

Describe some interesting problems you solved in school, like the graphically oriented clock program you wrote without using any graphics package (and yes, I'm dating myself; I did one of those in C supported by GKS, and it was cool, but that was 1994...). Show that you're flexible without stretching the limits of credibility.

Above all, if they ask for a "one page, single sided" rèsumé, do NOT send them your life history. Give them exactly what they ask for, but fill it with truthful, interesting, and impressive (honors is Very Good!) information.

zizban · Jan 6, 2006, 09:59 PM

I have left out a job gone horribly wrong but its now getting so far back in time, no one cares anymore.

krillbee · Jan 13, 2006, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by macroy

If this job (from which you were fired from) is relevant to the one you are applying for, and if you learned some good skills, I'd still leave it on (you don't usually include the reason why you left on your resume do you?). If you have small gaps, simply use years to describe your stay - i.e "Acme Inc, 2000-2002" and your next job may be "Apple, 2002-Present". But you may have had a period of unemployment (or a job you left) between May and June of 2002 - No one has to know.

HOWEVER, I'd strongly caution against outright lying if you are asked a direct question. If you're asked if you've ever been fired, I'd come clean and explain. You may not get the job, but its still better than getting it, have them find out, and firing you. Cuz' now, you've got two jobs you've been fired from.

how would they find out if you got fired previously though? If they have already hired you, I cant see any reason why they would need to pry into your history.

Plus thats a personal question to ask someone if they've been fired before. That question can get used to judge people, regardless of how much that person has changed since they got fired.

hardcat1970 · Jan 13, 2006, 09:12 PM

What if you have the experience but without the proper degree to show for? For example I consider myself a better than average designer (those who have degree but design like s**t and don't have any software skills) but i have never graduated from my college. Most companies look for someone that has at least BFA.

Timo · Jan 13, 2006, 09:32 PM

Simply state "coursework at such-and-such place" at the end, and make sure your resume features front-and-center your experience.

macroy · Jan 13, 2006, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by krillbee

how would they find out if you got fired previously though? If they have already hired you, I cant see any reason why they would need to pry into your history.

Plus thats a personal question to ask someone if they've been fired before. That question can get used to judge people, regardless of how much that person has changed since they got fired.

Depending on the industry you work - it may be a small world. So by chance something you've lied about may come full circle. In addition, some places (and most that I've worked at) will conduct either a credit check or even a background investigation (I thought I read somewhere recently that this is actually becoming more common even in private ind. - UsaToday??).

I'm not sure how that would be a personal question (the reason may be personal... but then its up to you to try and explain it well enough) - I don't think its one of those that you can't ask... and its perfectly understandable why a potential employer would like to know.