[wataru]

Wow, thanks guys. That was helpful.

Jackasses.

[CharlesS]

Um, I'm not sure what else I was supposed to do... I can't figure out why Firefox is doing that, and even cycling through all the fonts on my system, I can't find a font that has that weird T-shaped thing in the place of the ⇧ symbol. So I'm not sure what I could do about that... it seems that it's just a bug in Gecko. You should report it.

[wataru]

I agree, it must be a bug. I wasn't looking for a fix, just letting you know. There are lots of characters that can't be counted on to display correctly accross platforms, and though this isn't quite the same thing, I think the solution will likely be the same—try to avoid that character.

Again, just FYI.

[CharlesS]

While in general, I would agree, in this case the guy was specifically asking what that character (along with a few others) meant.

I'd recommend reporting this, as it's obscure enough that they'll probably never discover this bug otherwise.

[wataru]

Bug #306281

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Blech!

File Management in an Open/Save dialog? They're for opening and saving, not for moving files around and DEFINITELY not for deleting them. (I've watched countless people at work move and even delete files while in the process of opening a file. Idiots, yes, but really, should this be possible?) Use the file manager for managing files. Use the open/save dialogs for opening and saving.

totally disagree with you there. one of the best utilities for classic was "default folder" - now sadly crap in OSX - which allowed you to move/rename/delete files in open/save dialogues. i used it all the time.

for example - if i'm doing a job [such as building web pages] which involves saving lots of individual files to various locations, i'll quite often save a file to 'folder A' when i meant to save it to 'folder B' - with file management in open/saves i notice this as i'm about to save the next file and drag the previously saved one to where i *should* have saved it.

....or...

i'm going to save the current image in a series i'm working on as "picture10.jpg" and then get a "picture10.jpg already exists - do you want to replace it?" message because i saved the previous one as "picture10.jpg" when it should have been "picture09.jpg" - again, with file management in open/saves i can just rename the previously saved file and continue without interrupting my workflow by having to delve around in the finder looking for files to move or rename.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by m a d r a

totally disagree with you there. one of the best utilities for classic was "default folder" - now sadly crap in OSX - which allowed you to move/rename/delete files in open/save dialogues. i used it all the time.

You can't disagree. Open/Save isn't meant to be used as a file manager. You're using the Open/Save dialog to correct some mistakes you did. It is not meant to be used that way. If Apple wanted you to have such a complex Open/Save interface, they'd magically whisk you back to a Finder window when you clicked on Open or Save in the menu.

If you're going to use the Open/Save dialog that way, why not just use the Finder? You can drag and drop the proxy icon at the top of ever titlebar to the Finder to save the file. It's much easier than using a hacked up Open/Save dialog to do the work the Finder does.

In any case, the point is moot. I fully expect the Open/Save dialog window to change in the next major OS X revision. Right now we've got Spotlight but we can't use it to it's full potential because we're stuck with the old spatial and hierarchical system as the default way of organization.

It's time that the Open/Save dialogs make use of metadata so the concept of 'moving' files or putting files into 'folders' are gone and replaced with a metadata grouping concept (grouping by project, by month, by document type, or combinations of these three but not limited to these three, etc..)

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

You can't disagree...

i just did!

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

You're using the Open/Save dialog to correct some mistakes you did....

and what's wrong wi that? if i'm in the middle of saving a large amount of files and i can see from the file listing in the open/save dialogue that i've named one of them wrongly or put it in the wrong place, why shouldn't i be able to fix the error there and then while i've got a listing of the files in my save location, without having to go through the convolutions of having to switch to the finder and navigate through my hard drive to find the file and move/rename it there?

isn't the idea supposed to be to make things less work, not more?

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

It's time that the Open/Save dialogs make use of metadata so the concept of 'moving' files or putting files into 'folders' are gone and replaced with a metadata grouping concept (grouping by project, by month, by document type, or combinations of these three but not limited to these three, etc..)

that i do agree with, but until that happens, i remain of the opinion that the current open/save dialogue, with its lack of full interaction is as archaic as the old modal open/save dialogues we used to have under classic.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by m a d r a

that i do agree with, but until that happens, i remain of the opinion that the current open/save dialogue, with its lack of full interaction is as archaic as the old modal open/save dialogues we used to have under classic.

What you want is a mini-Finder to pop-up that allows you to do everything the Finder does. There's a reason why it doesn't work that way...and that reason is: the Finder exists!

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

What you want is a mini-Finder to pop-up that allows you to do everything the Finder does. There's a reason why it doesn't work that way...and that reason is: the Finder exists!

... as a seperate app

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by m a d r a

... as a seperate app

That's the idea with Apple. Everything lives as a separate full-featured app. Most of these can be accessed within other apps using a similar but simpler interface (Address Book can be accessed within Mail and iCal, iPhoto and iTunes can be accessed within iMovie, Pages and Keynotes...the Finder can be accessed within any document app.) These similar but simpler interface aren't meant to replace the full-fledged app though. You're not going to be able to move your music from one playlist to another within iPhoto or Pages, you won't be able to create a new album for photos from within iMovie.

That's the way things work. Sorry, but it makes sense to keep the Open/Save interface simple and clutter free.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

It's time that the Open/Save dialogs make use of metadata so the concept of 'moving' files or putting files into 'folders' are gone and replaced with a metadata grouping concept (grouping by project, by month, by document type, or combinations of these three but not limited to these three, etc..)

Or not.

Explained you 1000 times why.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by m a d r a

totally disagree with you there. one of the best utilities for classic was "default folder" - now sadly crap in OSX - which allowed you to move/rename/delete files in open/save dialogues. i used it all the time.

Although not as good as its Mac version I think Default Folder X is pretty good...I don't think I could make it through a single day using OS X without it actually....

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

During the very dark days of Apple in the 90s

Dark days? Apple used to have a 12% marketshare during the days of the desktop publishing revolution. You wouldn't catch any of us using a PC back then. The creative industry was Mac-only through and through.

You want to talk dark days?

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Although not as good as its Mac version I think Default Folder X is pretty good...I don't think I could make it through a single day using OS X without it actually....

i dunno. there's just something about the way that farty wee icon bar staggers around the screen drunkenly pursuing the dialogue, if you happen to move it, that i find sadly pathetic - especially when you think what a great utility it used to be.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Dark days? Apple used to have a 12% marketshare during the days of the desktop publishing revolution. You wouldn't catch any of us using a PC back then. The creative industry was Mac-only through and through.

You want to talk dark days?

He said "90s".

Yes, Apple's marketshare was steadily declining since pretty much the release of Windows 3.1 - until OS X finally hit critical mass, and the iPod uncritical masses.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

Or not.

Explained you 1000 times why.

And we've explained it to you 1000001 times. You're not using OS 9 anymore...you're using OS X. If you want to hold on to the old 'golden days', keep using OS 9.

[mAxximo]

i dunno. there's just something about the way that farty wee icon bar staggers around the screen drunkenly pursuing the dialogue, if you happen to move it, that i find sadly pathetic - especially when you think what a great utility it used to be.

I hear you...
I'm pretty sure Apple are making things as hard as possible for developers to modify this kind of system functionality, I wouldn't blame DF this time...

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

That's the idea with Apple. Everything lives as a separate full-featured app. Most of these can be accessed within other apps using a similar but simpler interface (Address Book can be accessed within Mail and iCal, iPhoto and iTunes can be accessed within iMovie, Pages and Keynotes...the Finder can be accessed within any document app.) These similar but simpler interface aren't meant to replace the full-fledged app though. You're not going to be able to move your music from one playlist to another within iPhoto or Pages, you won't be able to create a new album for photos from within iMovie.

That's the way things work. Sorry, but it makes sense to keep the Open/Save interface simple and clutter free.

you're comparing apples with oranges here. the finder isn't an app in the sense that itunes, pages or iphoto are. you don't use the finder to "create" anything - it's just there to let you organise where you keep your files and what you name them. since most of the time you'll be deciding where to save files and what to name them from an open/save dialogue, there's no reason why the open/save dialogues shouldnae be just as functional as the finder.

if you really want to keep the open/save crippled and require use of the finder for all file manipulation beyond basic opening and saving then at least make the finder work with the open/save dialogue - a simple "show in finder" button in open/save dialogues that would take the user directly in the finder to the folder featured in the open/save dialogue would pretty much allow us to do all the moving and renaming we wanted with as little effort as possible.

it's this whole business of "i've navigated to this folder in the open/save and spotted something that needs changing - so now i've got to navigate to it all over again in the finder!" duplication of effort that i find really user unfriendly.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

And we've explained it to you 1000001 times. You're not using OS 9 anymore...you're using OS X. If you want to hold on to the old 'golden days', keep using OS 9.

Exactly, I'm using OS X. Which is slowly starting to work as what it claims to be, a Mac.
If you want to hold on to the old dark days when file “management” was done by typing away stuff instead of using the natural and proven spatial organisation, then go back to DOS.

And don't “we” me. You are pretty much alone in this.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by analogika

He said "90s".

Yes, Apple's marketshare was steadily declining since pretty much the release of Windows 3.1 - until OS X finally hit critical mass, and the iPod uncritical masses.

No, marketshare started to decline —though very slowly— after the release of Win95. The 90s were a good decade for Mac sales compared to what happened when OS X made its debut in 2000.
Now, not surprisingly, sales are starting to pick up, just when the quality of the OS is slowly getting to acceptable levels. What a coincidence.

[leperkuhn]

While I understand why some people wouldn't want to use an open/save dialog box to change the file system, I don't understand why they object to other poeple doing it, if that's how they are productive.

There is a valid reason to want this - when I have decided to save a file in a folder, and I realize something is there that shouldn't be - I want to move it without having to switch apps (to finder), navigate to the correct location, and move the file.

At the very least, there should be a "show this location in the finder" option. If it's there already, I don't know about it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jspeed]

Originally Posted by analogika

^F2 (that's control-F2) and you're in the menu. type the first letter of the command you're looking for and/or use the arrow keys.

Full keyboard access is in the System Preferences --> Keyboard&Mouse --> Key shortcuts

Thanks for trying to help. I've already turned on full keyboard access.

I'm on the iBook, so ctrl+F2 for me becomes ctrl+fn+f2. That takes me to the Apple menu, and I must use the arrow keys to move horizontally. Hitting a letter will only make a selection from the drop down menu that's already open. To make matters worse, if there are other commands that start with the same letter as my intended command, I have to keep typing until the system realizes which one I want.

e.g. to "Paste Special" in Windows, I do
alt+e, s
for OS X, I have to use
ctrl+F2, right x 3, "pastes" or down x 2

That's not really much faster than the trackpad, and no, I don't want to create a keyboard shortcut (and memorize it) for every command that I use frequently. So for now I've fallen back to using the trackpad.

[Thinine]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

No, marketshare started to decline —though very slowly— after the release of Win95. The 90s were a good decade for Mac sales compared to what happened when OS X made its debut in 2000.
Now, not surprisingly, sales are starting to pick up, just when the quality of the OS is slowly getting to acceptable levels. What a coincidence.

No, marketshare peaked before 1990, and while Mac sales increased for the first half of the decade, by 1996 both marketshare and sales were falling fast. Of course, it took a while even after Jobs took over for this pattern to slow, and so 2000 was around the lowest Mac sales ever. The sales failure was caused both by bad business practices (pricing, supply, too many products, etc.) and a crappy OS (or at least one that was stagnant).

[mAxximo]

IIRC marketshare peaked in 1994. Unfortunately I'm getting the 404 message in the link I have to some good marketshare charts.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

You are pretty much alone in this.

Nope, I agree with him too.

Apple should do away with the file system and move to project/file type metadata grouping.

[m a d r a]

Originally Posted by leperkuhn

...At the very least, there should be a "show this location in the finder" option. ...

what he said!

oh - wait a minute. that was what i said!

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by m a d r a

you're comparing apples with oranges here. the finder isn't an app in the sense that itunes, pages or iphoto are. you don't use the finder to "create" anything - it's just there to let you organise where you keep your files and what you name them. since most of the time you'll be deciding where to save files and what to name them from an open/save dialogue, there's no reason why the open/save dialogues shouldnae be just as functional as the finder.

if you really want to keep the open/save crippled and require use of the finder for all file manipulation beyond basic opening and saving then at least make the finder work with the open/save dialogue - a simple "show in finder" button in open/save dialogues that would take the user directly in the finder to the folder featured in the open/save dialogue would pretty much allow us to do all the moving and renaming we wanted with as little effort as possible.

it's this whole business of "i've navigated to this folder in the open/save and spotted something that needs changing - so now i've got to navigate to it all over again in the finder!" duplication of effort that i find really user unfriendly.

But like I said...the point is moot, the whole idea of spatial organization that mAxximo holds so dearly to is user unfriendly. It was a proven concept back in 1984 when we had 400k and 800k floppy disks and tiny hard drives with barely any files to organize but, today!? Today it's impossible to organize and retrieve files spatially with ease.

The point, like I said, is moot. The whole OS' file organization is moving to a metadata-rich organization. You won't need to 'move' files, you won't need to create folders, you won't misplace them. Because spatiality is moving away, it's entirely possible to have files with the same name...so you won't necessarily need to rename.

[addiecool]

i switched nearly 5 years back. I really miss the windows world, like all the troubles associated...the crashes... the frequent reinstalls...the whole night troubleshooting....the troublesome updates....the forced hardware upgrades.....the threat before opening a email....the hardware driver dillema....norton virus (yeah it is a virus) and slow system.....opening 1 zillion consoles to setup small things......wireless network headaches....wired network headaches....like ping ping ping......safe mode booting.....never being able to boot......lost documents.....BSOD's.....BSND's (Black Screen no display).....system slowdown after few weeks.....constant fear of error popups .....

Yeah I really miss it......

[leperkuhn]

Originally Posted by m a d r a

what he said!

oh - wait a minute. that was what i said!

no wonder that phrase jumped directly into my brain. i read it 10 seconds prior to posting.

*sigh* I thought i was onto something.

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

But like I said...the point is moot, the whole idea of spatial organization that mAxximo holds so dearly to is user unfriendly. It was a proven concept back in 1984 when we had 400k and 800k floppy disks and tiny hard drives with barely any files to organize but, today!? Today it's impossible to organize and retrieve files spatially with ease.

What do you think a LOT of us are still using, Horsepoo!!? It still works perfect for me and I have TONS of files to manage. Each one of my motion graphics projects end up having more than 5GB of data and I do one or two of those a week. I'll try and back-up one of those using Spotlight instead of just dragging a perfectly organised folder to our network drive sometime, lol.

You say “It was a proven concept back in 1984” and that is incorrect. “Proven” applies to something that was established beyond doubt through experience. You can say spatial orientation is a proven concept *today* after generations of Mac users have gone through it and accepted it as the preferred method for file organisation.

Spatial is not going anywhere. Thank goodness.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mAxximo

You say “It was a proven concept back in 1984” and that is incorrect. “Proven” applies to something that was established beyond doubt through experience. You can say spatial orientation is a proven concept *today* after generations of Mac users have gone through it and accepted it as the preferred method for file organisation.

Spatial is not going anywhere. Thank goodness.

And those of use with more than 20 files in a folder have other options now. Thank goodness.


Now, back on topic: How was switching back from Windows for you?

You DID leave for Windows back in 2001 or so, like you'd always promised...right?

Right?

[mAxximo]

Originally Posted by analogika

Now, back on topic: How was switching back from Windows for you?

You DID leave for Windows back in 2001 or so, like you'd always promised...right?

Right?

Didn't need to...my Mac was still fully functional. Even today I can boot that G4 in OS 9 and do almost anything I need less the OS X and Windows hassles.