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FTFF -- So what DO you want in Leopard's Finder? (Page 3)
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cla
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Sep 19, 2005, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
I love the Dock and use it all the time (having folders and windows in it).
A replacement would naturally try to overbridge the shortcomings of the current dock.

What if the screen edge was actually utilized when accessing dock items (as shown in the movie I posted on the previous page).

What if we, instead of having a large dock on one side of the screen, could reduce its height and extend its width to three sides of the screen? This, along with two design principles the current dock violates, would bring interesting consequences:

Proximity: All Photoshop windows would minimize towards the location of the Photoshop application in the dock. Your windows could minimize to any screen edge.
Consistency: Every application in the dock would have a consistent place. Always.
     
Big Mac
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Sep 19, 2005, 04:17 PM
 
I don't really follow you, cla. Anyway, those of you who would like to see a Dock replacement shouldn't hold your breath - among other things, Apple seldom touches the Dock, and even then there are only minor changes/improvements.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 19, 2005, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by cla
A replacement would naturally try to overbridge the shortcomings of the current dock.

What if the screen edge was actually utilized when accessing dock items (as shown in the movie I posted on the previous page).

What if we, instead of having a large dock on one side of the screen, could reduce its height and extend its width to three sides of the screen? This, along with two design principles the current dock violates, would bring interesting consequences:

Proximity: All Photoshop windows would minimize towards the location of the Photoshop application in the dock. Your windows could minimize to any screen edge.
Consistency: Every application in the dock would have a consistent place. Always.
Can't watch the movie somehow, it doesn't load.

No, your proposition would be an even bigger mess. I honestly like it the way it is. I can rearrange windows as I see fit in the Dock. Having the Dock extend to the other two sides would violate the second guideline you mentioned: consistency. The Dock is consistently at the bottom as the menu is always at the top. You can't miss it. An extended Dock would be much harder to handle and waste a lot more space.

The separation of applications and windows is the very thing which helps me navigate. The little icons on the bottom right of every window lets me immediately find out what app that specific window belongs to.

I'm interested in the movie, though, any chance, you can fix the link?
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leperkuhn
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Sep 19, 2005, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Can't watch the movie somehow, it doesn't load.

No, your proposition would be an even bigger mess. I honestly like it the way it is. I can rearrange windows as I see fit in the Dock. Having the Dock extend to the other two sides would violate the second guideline you mentioned: consistency. The Dock is consistently at the bottom as the menu is always at the top. You can't miss it. An extended Dock would be much harder to handle and waste a lot more space.

The separation of applications and windows is the very thing which helps me navigate. The little icons on the bottom right of every window lets me immediately find out what app that specific window belongs to.

I'm interested in the movie, though, any chance, you can fix the link?
He's referring to when you try to use drag and drop with the dock, if you drag the icon to the bottom edge of the screen the file won't open. I agree after watching the movie.
     
cla
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Sep 19, 2005, 06:30 PM
 
That's odd... I thought H.264 encoding would guarantee a minimum sized movie playable on any modern Mac.

I just watched the movie in my browser, downloaded it, watched in QT, watched in VLC, all fine. All I did was to encode it in Quicktime Player using H.264...

If you download the movie, won't it still play?


Anyway, I put together a really ugly mockup just to hint on what I mean. 2,5 MB, also H.264 encoded... :/

a really ugly mockup just to hint on what I mean.

What is shown is the potential "Photoshop area" of the screen.
(And I do realize a full implementation would add more clutter... =] )
     
leperkuhn
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Sep 20, 2005, 02:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by cla
That's odd... I thought H.264 encoding would guarantee a minimum sized movie playable on any modern Mac.

I just watched the movie in my browser, downloaded it, watched in QT, watched in VLC, all fine. All I did was to encode it in Quicktime Player using H.264...

If you download the movie, won't it still play?


Anyway, I put together a really ugly mockup just to hint on what I mean. 2,5 MB, also H.264 encoded... :/

a really ugly mockup just to hint on what I mean.

What is shown is the potential "Photoshop area" of the screen.
(And I do realize a full implementation would add more clutter... =] )
Hmm.. not a fan. I have around 30 apps open all the time, my screen would look ridiculous.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 20, 2005, 08:16 AM
 
The movie worked now (don't know what the difference was).

Hmmm, I think your suggestion would be even more inconsistent than Apple's Dock. Your solutions eats space for breakfast as all icons/application names must be placed consistently at a certain location. This costs a lot of screen estate, especially for those people with XGA screens (iBooks, 12" PowerBook). The spacing has to be designed for the `worst case scenario' and would cause me to move my mouse even more. On average, I have 6-10 apps concurrently running (plus Finder and Dashboard), so even on a 15" PowerBook, I wonder how much space this would eat up.

I think the Dock, despite its flaws, is a cleaner solution. I would like to see better drag 'n' drop support for folders in the Dock and generally make things more versatile in the Dock. I should be able to add smart folders in the Dock, manipulate files from within folders in the Dock.
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P
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Sep 20, 2005, 11:43 AM
 
If we're including the Dock in this topic, it could be improved a lot by just making the label of ALL the icons appear when you're over any part of the Dock - like all of the X-+ symbols show up when you are over any of the three candy-buttons in the top left corner of any window. This would let us add folders to the dock without worrying about custom icons or scrubbing over them.
     
mAxximo
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Sep 20, 2005, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by P
If we're including the Dock in this topic, it could be improved a lot by just making the label of ALL the icons appear when you're over any part of the Dock - like all of the X-+ symbols show up when you are over any of the three candy-buttons in the top left corner of any window. This would let us add folders to the dock without worrying about custom icons or scrubbing over them.
     
mAxximo
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Sep 20, 2005, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
Instead of removing the doc, it should really just get a few upgrades.

1. Multiple docks, not anchored to any side. Floating options. Draggable to wherever you want.
2. Add another expose feature to hide and show floating docks.
This is what I'd love to see well implemented in OS X. As I posted earlier in this thread I'd like an option to have a “floating” Dock accessible via i.e. Option-Tab (much like the Application Switcher) while using the bottom of the screen for fully functional Pop-Up Folders instead. Never gonna happen...
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 20, 2005, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by mAxximo
This is what I'd love to see well implemented in OS X. As I posted earlier in this thread I'd like an option to have a “floating” Dock accessible via i.e. Option-Tab (much like the Application Switcher) while using the bottom of the screen for fully functional Pop-Up Folders instead. Never gonna happen...
How do you launch apps with an Alt + Tab Dock replacement?
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mAxximo
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
How do you launch apps with an Alt + Tab Dock replacement?
The same way you switch apps now with Command-Tab, just Tab and release or hover with the mouse and click. Or click and hold for more options, etc.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by mAxximo
The same way you switch apps now with Command-Tab, just Tab and release or hover with the mouse and click. Or click and hold for more options, etc.
Why is that better than the Dock (or hidden Dock)? I would need two hands to launch an app.
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leperkuhn
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
How do you launch apps with an Alt + Tab Dock replacement?
In "leperkuhn's dream dock setup" there would be another expose key, like F8, that brings all the docks into the screen, dashboard style. You could put them wherever you wanted, and to open an app it would work just like the regular dock.

It would just be nice to not have 40 icons in the doc, arranged in no particular order.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:25 PM
 
But you'd still need to press a key, two hands instead of just one.
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leperkuhn
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:32 PM
 
Hot corners.

Most people use 2 hands to use expose, if you don't map a hot corner or a mouse button. Unless you use the arrow keys to pick your window.

In reality, I'd probably keep using quicksilver to launch any app. I'd prefer a menu arranged alphabetically, in the top right corner, over the dock if it was an option.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:56 PM
 
I use hot corners, and all four are already taken
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leperkuhn
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Sep 20, 2005, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
I use hot corners, and all four are already taken
Apple will be introducing the dodecahedron monitor. 12 sides, 12 corners. Enjoy.
     
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Sep 20, 2005, 08:36 PM
 
Kill the Dock. A suggestion to FTFF. Fixing the Dock would also be an option, but it is just an application launcher and a place for other shortcuts. We used to have shareware (and still do) that outperforms the Dock.

No - wait. In OS X you can't kill the Dock because it is the only place in the entire f-ing system where you can access the Trash.

You can eject volumes in the sidebar of Finder windows - but the Trash is only accessable through the Dock. Why bring this up?

Because holding the Trash is the only real purpose of the Dock. Everything else can be removed or accessed differently. Silly Apple.

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Sep 21, 2005, 04:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
Apple will be introducing the dodecahedron monitor. 12 sides, 12 corners. Enjoy.
A dodecahedron monitor would be interesting, to say the least. I could see them making a dodecagon monitor, however...

To get somewhere in the general relationship of on topic again - I just had to be a messerschmidt for a second there, it's an urge that I regularly fail to contain - Apple could easily double the number of actions by making you click a mouse-button in the corner to trigger an action instead of just moving the mouse there. One action for the first two or three buttons at least. It would also be better usability to put a blob there as a click target - just holding the mousepointer there would explain what clicking it did. Make the top two corners the Apple menu and Spotlight, the bottom left the two main Expose actions for left and right-click (all windows and app-windows) and the bottom right show Desktop on left-click and start Dashboard on rightclick. Or maybe keep Dashboard with the Apple menu, that might be more logical. You still have two more shortcuts, one could be a full-screen launcher

This would of course mean moving the Apple and Spotlight logo really out into the corners. There should also be Apple menu options for all of the actions available, so the user always has a way to trigger an action that has been removed from the shortcuts - like the screensaver triggers.
     
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Sep 21, 2005, 07:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Yes, you do. OS X, like Windows and *nix OS have many, many users already included in the system. .
And it already knows l the difference between the system types and humans - have a look in accounts under system prefs.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie
I'm also not sure why you keep mentioning Netinfo -- are you sure you know what it is? .... it has nothing to do with the network in the Finder window.
/Network/Servers/whatever.local is indeed NetInfo related.

/Network/Servers/hostname is where the automoutner mounts remote NFS shares. Your local machine is put there on startup for legacy reasons. For example, in a Next era NetInfo based network other computers in your office would show up here. Instead of mounting every computer in the office by hand, a central NetInfo server would set it all up for you, which was very cool in its day.

NetInfo is gradually being phased out in favor of LDAP but we still have remnants of the ancient ways, like /Network/Servers/whatever.local as a handy third way to look at the files on your desktop. Who thought that was weird the first time they ran into it? Show of hands?


Originally Posted by OreoCookie
I think you are falling for a common mistake: the mistake, everything should be/can be easy. Computers nowadays do a lot more than they used, networks, color printers, iPods, mp3 libraries. People struggle with it, because it is difficult. People tend to forget that.
Your kidding, right? The whole point of computers is to make things easier. Networks, color printers, iPods, mp3 libraries: all examples of things that are more complex now, yet easier to use all the time. That's no mistake.

Following that thought, I want each folder to remember how wide I set the friggin' column. I probably waste millions of man hours a year re-fiddling with the column widths. It's a drain on the economy!
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Gavin
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Sep 21, 2005, 07:36 AM
 
Gnome has a thing where you can "zoom in" on the amount of info shown about the file. Every time you kick it up a notch you get more metadata visible, name, dates, keywords, badges, content preview, etc.

Badges are cool too. mini icons, you attach one or more to a file's icon.
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OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 21, 2005, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gavin
And it already knows l the difference between the system types and humans - have a look in accounts under system prefs.
Open an info dialog and check out the phletora of users offered there.

Originally Posted by Gavin
/Network/Servers/whatever.local is indeed NetInfo related.

/Network/Servers/hostname is where the automoutner mounts remote NFS shares. Your local machine is put there on startup for legacy reasons. For example, in a Next era NetInfo based network other computers in your office would show up here. Instead of mounting every computer in the office by hand, a central NetInfo server would set it all up for you, which was very cool in its day.
You seem to misunderstand the point why it is there. It doesn't matter where the information comes from, but you have a similar construct with windows. Browse the Network and find your own computer. Now you have access to all shared directories, even though you might be alone in your network.

It doesn't matter if a unix file, a registry setting or a NetInfo entry says what share mounts where.

Originally Posted by Gavin
NetInfo is gradually being phased out in favor of LDAP but we still have remnants of the ancient ways, like /Network/Servers/whatever.local as a handy third way to look at the files on your desktop. Who thought that was weird the first time they ran into it? Show of hands?
The backbone of NetInfo is based on LDAP at least since Panther. As I'm used to have that on my windows machine, it's neither weird nor strange. It's not a remnant of NetInfo, it's a feature that's actively developed. It's not a deprecated feature. So even when NetInfo is fully replaced by LDAP, I bet you'll still have the same `weird' Network menu.

Originally Posted by Gavin
Your kidding, right? The whole point of computers is to make things easier. Networks, color printers, iPods, mp3 libraries: all examples of things that are more complex now, yet easier to use all the time. That's no mistake.
Don't get me wrong, all this interconnectivity is made very easy already. To make things interconnect the way we witness it now is no mean feat, it's damn hard work which makes our lives easier.

But can my parents set up a network? No. Do they care what a pop server is and how it is different from an smtp server? No, they don't. And they'll never learn which is fine by me. The underlying structure is very complex.
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SMacTech
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Sep 21, 2005, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
No - wait. In OS X you can't kill the Dock because it is the only place in the entire f-ing system where you can access the Trash.

Because holding the Trash is the only real purpose of the Dock. Everything else can be removed or accessed differently. Silly Apple.
Good point about the Trash.

However, I happen to like the dock. Let there be a W-Y Dock removal Preference check button. I don't think that would be too hard to implement.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 21, 2005, 08:38 AM
 
Why not put the trash on the Desktop and hide the Dock?
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P
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Sep 21, 2005, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Gavin
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
I think you are falling for a common mistake: the mistake, everything should be/can be easy. Computers nowadays do a lot more than they used, networks, color printers, iPods, mp3 libraries. People struggle with it, because it is difficult. People tend to forget that.
Your kidding, right? The whole point of computers is to make things easier. Networks, color printers, iPods, mp3 libraries: all examples of things that are more complex now, yet easier to use all the time. That's no mistake.
Up to a point. If there is a tradeoff between speed and ease-of-use, it's not clear that ease-of-use should be chosen every single time. Consider for instance the typewriter. To the first typist, it probably looked terribly complicated, and a pen would be much easier. But using a pen is slower, as any good or even decent typist will tell you. Look at the situation today, where using a pen-based interface (say on Palm) is considered harder than typing - and slower of course, but also harder. I know it sounds like silly corporate-speak, but there is a paradigm shift here.

The same thing happens today, when people think using Windows explorer is easier than the spatial interface on the Desktop. The only reason this is so is because that's what they've been using for so long - they are less logical to a true newbie, but few in the western world are true computer newbies anymore. It caught MS a bit off guard when they launched Win 95 with the new spatial interface and toned down the explorer. For Win NT, a year later or so, the explorer was back on the Desktop, because everyone installed that shortcut anyway.

Computers get easier to use because they adapt to us, but also because we adapt to them. We learn their quirks, and we get more efficent because of them. I agreee that it should be easier to connect to a network, but which is easiest? To locate the computer every single time, or to have it setup for you? One idea that I've had for a while is for a button in the Sharing window to create a settings file for how you connect to that share from another computer. If you just get that file to the other computer (by email or whatever) you can then connect easily enough to it. Isn't that a better idea than the network browser paradigm?
     
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Sep 21, 2005, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by SMacTech
Good point about the Trash.

However, I happen to like the dock. Let there be a W-Y Dock removal Preference check button. I don't think that would be too hard to implement.
Absolutely!

Live and let live that is my UI motto. There are times when I'd like the Dock to disappear while I work and reappear when I specifically tell it to. Hiding isn't good enough IMO. Of course these are just suggestions and personal wishes from one user.

This thread has become larger than the 10.5 wishlist stickie and for good reason. I am seeing good and balanced UI discussion here and some great ideas. SMacTech, good points all round.

We seem to diverse into three major groups:

* Those who want to see some revolutionary new features in the 10.5 Finder. Basically out with the old, in with the new. And would probably like more consistency in Mac OS X.

* Those who are content with the Finder's features but want to see the bugs fixed that have been with us since OS X was released (or at least they feel like it - i.e. QT movie previews in column view etc) and would like more consistency in Mac OS X

* Those who want new features and some old features too. Those who feel that not all the gems were salvaged from the OS 9 UI and would like more consistency in Mac OS X.

I think everyone would like to see some more consistency in Mac OS X. Of course, if I am wrong then don't hesitate to holler. I do suspect that is the general consensus though.

To sum it up, I'd love for OS X 10.5 to get a lot of love and attention in the Finder, Dock and general UI and experience. Just make it the nicest, most consistent and polished Macintosh system ever. It can be done, and if anyone can do it, Apple can.

..and under the UI arguably the most powerful technologies found in any mainstream OS. I

cheers

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Sep 21, 2005, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Why not put the trash on the Desktop and hide the Dock?
I have to ask: Do you use Mac OS X regularily or even occationally?

or

was that suggestion for Mac OS X 10.5?

I ask of course because to answer your question I'd have to say: "because you can't". If you were suggesting a feature for 10.5 then yeah, I agree with you. Why not put the Trash on the Desktop and hide the Dock. Preferably being able to hide it completely when you want, like some apps do already (games etc). The Dock is useful on occation, but it isn't so essential that it should be impossible to essentially turn off at a user's request (and easily be turned on again)

cheers

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leperkuhn
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Sep 21, 2005, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by P
The same thing happens today, when people think using Windows explorer is easier than the spatial interface on the Desktop. The only reason this is so is because that's what they've been using for so long - they are less logical to a true newbie, but few in the western world are true computer newbies anymore. It caught MS a bit off guard when they launched Win 95 with the new spatial interface and toned down the explorer. For Win NT, a year later or so, the explorer was back on the Desktop, because everyone installed that shortcut anyway.
I've never like spacial browsing. I've used a mac since System 7, before that an apple ][ gs. At no point did I ever find spacial browsing useful. Why? Because there's way to much stuff to remember.

I don't like or use icon view. It's a waste of space. List or column view is the way to go, and I need things organized alphabetically. In my mind, everything should be in order for me.

Spacial view just doesn't work for me, and never has. I have way to much stuff to keep track of to rely on "muscle memory" when I look at a folder after 2 months of not working on it.
     
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Sep 21, 2005, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
I've never like spacial browsing. I've used a mac since System 7, before that an apple ][ gs. At no point did I ever find spacial browsing useful. Why? Because there's way to much stuff to remember.

I don't like or use icon view. It's a waste of space. List or column view is the way to go, and I need things organized alphabetically. In my mind, everything should be in order for me.

Spacial view just doesn't work for me, and never has. I have way to much stuff to keep track of to rely on "muscle memory" when I look at a folder after 2 months of not working on it.
But did you use computers before this? Because the hierarchical browser mode is more similar to the terminal way of thinking, where you have a working directory.

Another point that I rather glossed over is that the browser mode is better suited to situations where you cannot control the hierarchy yourself, but have to use an existing file tree. The spatial mode assumes that you can rearrange things to your liking.
     
leperkuhn
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Sep 21, 2005, 02:11 PM
 
My first computer experience was with apple 2, and later the mac. I started with spacial view, and outgrew it.

I like things arranged alphabetically. I see no reason to move things around to an unordered arrangement. Even in icon view, i used "keep arranged by name".

If only my keys had a similar system. I walk in the house, they zip up to my desk. I'd have hours of my life back.
     
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Sep 21, 2005, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
My first computer experience was with apple 2, and later the mac. I started with spacial view, and outgrew it.

I like things arranged alphabetically. I see no reason to move things around to an unordered arrangement. Even in icon view, i used "keep arranged by name".

If only my keys had a similar system. I walk in the house, they zip up to my desk. I'd have hours of my life back.
I feel for ya man. I'm *not* trying to force my POV upon you or anything, but my experience is the complete opposite. Spacial view is how I work the fastest.

If the OS X Finder had proper spaciality I'd have hours of *my* life back. Be glad that your preferred way of navigating isn't crippled in some stupid way. Be happy for what you have. One doesn't really appreciate the good things of life before one loses them.

Actually that applies to everything in my experience.

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Sep 21, 2005, 03:03 PM
 
I'm gonna be a wee bit off-topic here to say that's a really nice logo Weyland.
     
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Sep 22, 2005, 02:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
I have to ask: Do you use Mac OS X regularily or even occationally?

or

was that suggestion for Mac OS X 10.5?

I ask of course because to answer your question I'd have to say: "because you can't". If you were suggesting a feature for 10.5 then yeah, I agree with you. Why not put the Trash on the Desktop and hide the Dock. Preferably being able to hide it completely when you want, like some apps do already (games etc). The Dock is useful on occation, but it isn't so essential that it should be impossible to essentially turn off at a user's request (and easily be turned on again)

cheers

W-Y
Of course you can put the trash on the desktop. There are plenty of tools out there that'll do just that. I thought you knew about them (from the top of my head, I think iCan and Trash X might be what you're looking for).

And yes, Apple has fulfilled your second request already. If you like shortcuts, try Alt + Apple + D. If you don't, then just go to the Apple Menu > Dock > Hide/Show.

And yes, OS X is my main OS
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Weyland-Yutani
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Sep 22, 2005, 07:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Of course you can put the trash on the desktop. There are plenty of tools out there that'll do just that. I thought you knew about them (from the top of my head, I think iCan and Trash X might be what you're looking for).

And yes, Apple has fulfilled your second request already. If you like shortcuts, try Alt + Apple + D. If you don't, then just go to the Apple Menu > Dock > Hide/Show.

And yes, OS X is my main OS
Right, I know about the tools to put the Trash on the Desktop and I use them. But this is about official Apple versions of the Finder so in this discussion third party apps or hacks are irrelevant. FTFF, not what apps can I find to make it more bearable.

Also Apple has not fulfilled my second request, since the that shotcut is just for hiding the Dock, not putting it away until I want it back. Moving the cursor to where the Dock is hidden will bring it up again no matter what.

My request was that I could just turn it off. Other people understood me when I wrote that, but not you

cheers

W-Y

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OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 22, 2005, 08:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
Right, I know about the tools to put the Trash on the Desktop and I use them. But this is about official Apple versions of the Finder so in this discussion third party apps or hacks are irrelevant. FTFF, not what apps can I find to make it more bearable.

Also Apple has not fulfilled my second request, since the that shotcut is just for hiding the Dock, not putting it away until I want it back. Moving the cursor to where the Dock is hidden will bring it up again no matter what.

My request was that I could just turn it off. Other people understood me when I wrote that, but not you

cheers

W-Y
Oh please, you just can't admit defeat. You were quite swift accusing me of knowing nothing about OS X and although I proved you wrong on both accounts you still don't stop.

Apple will neither put the trash on the Desktop nor switch off the Dock. It's not gonna happen. I'm not sure why you aren't flexible enough to use the solution I proposed instead. There are many ways to customize OS X to suit your needs. If you're only happy if Apple makes it your way, without the need of any third-party tools, don't hold your breath.
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Weyland-Yutani
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Sep 22, 2005, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Oh please, you just can't admit defeat. You were quite swift accusing me of knowing nothing about OS X and although I proved you wrong on both accounts you still don't stop.

Apple will neither put the trash on the Desktop nor switch off the Dock. It's not gonna happen. I'm not sure why you aren't flexible enough to use the solution I proposed instead. There are many ways to customize OS X to suit your needs. If you're only happy if Apple makes it your way, without the need of any third-party tools, don't hold your breath.


If you are reading accusations and are trying to prove something, then step away from the computer and take a breather.

To sum up a relevant reply: Do you work for Apple? Making important UI decisions? Assuming you do not then that is settled then.

This topic is about suggestions to FTFF not advice to use 3rd party apps to do so. Start another thread if you want a thread about such advice.

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W-Y

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OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 22, 2005, 08:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
To sum up a relevant reply: Do you work for Apple? Making important UI decisions? Assuming you do not then that is settled then.

This topic is about suggestions to FTFF not advice to use 3rd party apps to do so. Start another thread if you want a thread about such advice.
To answer your questions: Yes. No.

So getting back to the topic. Excuse me, but I gave you advice. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, why I should start a thread when there is a whole forum at your disposal (GUI) to make OS X more the way you want it to.

There are tools to bring the trash back on the Desktop since at least 10.0. I'm not sure about the public beta anymore, it's been quite some time. The show/hide Dock shortcut has also been there forever. It may not be 100 % what you want, but as far as I (and probably Apple) am concerned, it's close enough.

And no, from the looks of things, Apple is not going to make it your way. So you way waste your energy fighting windmills or simply work within the system, do a simple search on versiontracker, download a tool for free and have it your way.
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cla
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Sep 22, 2005, 08:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
So you way waste your energy fighting windmills.
Darn! That would make me Sancho Panza!
*shrug*

:>
     
clebin
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Sep 22, 2005, 10:29 AM
 
There are still too many bugs. A random example - yesterday the Finder just refused to show a file. Had I deleted it? All the usual Finder tricks like resizing, switching on and off View By, copying files into the folder and out again didn't work. There's still too much of that, even though the filesystem hooks have made things better.

Anything that makes our IT department dislike Macs more makes me unhappy. Another random example - the Finder doesn't like our FTP server. Transmit does, but who has that on their machine? The Terminal does, but who's capable of using that? Windows Explorer certainly does. This is why they say "Bloody Macs!" whenever we have a problem. I wish they'd spend a bit more time on Networking, and in making the Network folder a little more pleasant.

I'd like to see the end of Print Centre and manage Printers in the Finder in a simple, logical way. The Print Centre is another reason IT don't like Macs. And who can blame them for not appreciating this particular piece of software? The concept of a Desktop Printer sounds new and original all over again.

Otherwise, I'd like more view options for images, and so on.
I'd like to see more metadata and be able to edit it in a nicer interface than Get Info.
I'd replace the horrible Get Info pane with a tabbed interface or something better.
I'd add an optional preview pane for any view, not just column view.
Restore a choice of icon spacing.

And fix more bugs. I never again want to open a folder to see half a blank window and a scrollbar.

I still think Spotlight is only part of the answer and in any case, Spotlight goes hand in hand with the Finder. I wish all of the Finder was new and cutting-edge. That Apple did for networking and printing what they did for MP3 playback. I don't have all the answers for that, but nobody at Apple is even asking the questions. That's what bugs me.

Chris
     
cla
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Sep 22, 2005, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by clebin
The concept of a Desktop Printer sounds new and original all over again.
What are people's gripes with desktop printer's anyway? I think it's a wonderful concept. Can't understand why the abondoned it.
     
leperkuhn
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Sep 22, 2005, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
Right, I know about the tools to put the Trash on the Desktop and I use them. But this is about official Apple versions of the Finder so in this discussion third party apps or hacks are irrelevant. FTFF, not what apps can I find to make it more bearable.

Also Apple has not fulfilled my second request, since the that shotcut is just for hiding the Dock, not putting it away until I want it back. Moving the cursor to where the Dock is hidden will bring it up again no matter what.

My request was that I could just turn it off. Other people understood me when I wrote that, but not you

cheers

W-Y
Dude, if you have a free tool that helps you out, what's the problem?

For instance: I said the other day i wanted the application menu. I found an app (ASM) that does it, and I have it installed. Any problems? No. Why would you care if it's apple or a 3rd party that's done something for you.

Apple has created a system. That system can be customized to a point to suit your needs, but occasionally you may need to rely on a third party programmer that has the same mindset as you to make something very specific happen.

Trash on desktop has a few negatives.

1. It can be obscured by a finder window.
2. It eliminates the chance to have a 100% clean desktop.
3. It could get moved around, and be a pain to find.

It's like building a house. If you want a bathroom on the roof, you have to do it yourself. Or be steve jobs or something.
     
Weyland-Yutani
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Sep 22, 2005, 02:39 PM
 
@OreoCookie

advice is fine but this thread isn't about advice. You could also have pointed PathFinder out for me - it is far more customizable then the Apple Finder but that isn't the issue. Apple's Finder is.

@leperkuhn

what makes your opinion better than mine?

cheers

W-Y

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leperkuhn
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Sep 22, 2005, 03:25 PM
 
@leperkuhn

what makes your opinion better than mine?
I didn't say it was. I'm just saying that at some point you have to realize you're complaining about something that's easily fixable yourself. You can put the trash can on the desktop - what's the big deal?
     
Weyland-Yutani
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Sep 22, 2005, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
I didn't say it was. I'm just saying that at some point you have to realize you're complaining about something that's easily fixable yourself. You can put the trash can on the desktop - what's the big deal?
No big deal, but looking at the thread topic "FTFF -- So what DO you want in Leopard's Finder?" it seems to be about things - big or small - that people would like to see in the 10.5 Finder.

One of my requests for 10.5 is being able to put the Trash on the Desktop and the Sidebar. Volumes can now be ejected in the Sidebar but you can't put files in the Trash there in the default Apple Finder as it is. Yet in the Dock the Trash also functions as an eject icon. In the Dock they are related, but in the Sidebar they are not in addition to there being no Trash in the sidebar. Having access to the Trash in the Sidebar (as an option if not by default) would be handy.

To further answer your question:

Since this is a thread about exactly those kind of requests, wishes or gripes, then I posted them. Whether people agree with them or not is simply a topic for another thread. Although it is nice to see when someone agrees and states that he agrees for the same reasons or adds some of his own it is pointless and rather annoying to get replies that consist of nothing but "this is stupid", "Apple will never do this", "this feature is dead" and other un-constructive and negative comments. If you are against it for no particular reason, for the sake of the thread refrain from posting. If you are against it for a practical reason that would disturb you in particular and offer constructive criticism then that is a good thing for a thread such as this.

Example: If I made a request that the Dock should be killed forever and wiped out of OS X because it is always in my way and hampers my creativity and you found the Dock useful then an option for me to just turn it *off* would be a feature that would benefit *both* of us. A win win situation. I like those kinds of situations. Just telling me it is a stupid suggestion because you think so highly of the Dock and use it so much is pointless.

Disclaimer: I don't know your opinion of the Dock at all, the above was an example and the word "you" isn't meant to apply to you, leperkuhn. The above was merely an example.

As I've stated before, I'm not trying to push my opinions on other people and I find it out of place for others to try and push their opinions on me.

Have the option to put the Trash on the Desktop and Sidebar in 10.5. This is my request for the 10.5 Finder. End of story. Nothing more to discuss. Of course I'd be fine if this were just an option, not default - just that the feature is there. While mildly curious what makes certain people object so vehemently to options and suggestions that don't really bother them, since they'd never see them if properly implemented, it is not really a part of this thread and completely off topic.

Also, AFAIK the utilities that allow the Trash to be put on the Desktop do not reflect whether the Trash is full or not nor do they allow volumes to be ejected by dragging them over the Trash like in the Dock.

Oh and that reminds me, here is another request for the Trash in 10.5: That the warning dialogue that appears before you empty the Trash displays the amount of data and quantity of files about to be deleted. It is handy to know and easily dismissed if you don't care.

cheers

W-Y

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leperkuhn
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Sep 22, 2005, 05:36 PM
 
OK, no big deal. It's on your request list.

Here's my request: option to keep dock sorted alphabetically. I guess it would probably keep the finder pinned to the left / top, which is fine. If anyone knows of a way to accomplish this now, I will give you my first born child, if and when I have one. Otherwise it'll be a goat or other farm animal of comparable size.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 22, 2005, 05:41 PM
 
All leperkuhn and me are saying that you already have your wishes 75 % fulfilled (hiding vs. switching off the Dock). (You can add the Trash manually to the sidebar in the Finder, use the Go To folder menu point.) These features are not supplied by Apple, but third parties.

No, it's not about advice, but why add features (which are not requested by a large share of users) which you basically have already?

(BTW, I did link to Pathfinder in my first post.)
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leperkuhn
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Sep 22, 2005, 05:48 PM
 
I would like an option to hide the dock also, because there are several apps that I would like to use instead. Dragthing, for instance, has a process dock that does exactly what i want, ie: shows the item names, doesn't show non-running items (very irritating) and arranges by name.
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 22, 2005, 06:00 PM
 
You mean an option other than `Hide'? When you Hide the Dock, it still pops up when you move the cursor to the bottom of the screen. Is that a big problem for you?
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Weyland-Yutani
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Sep 22, 2005, 06:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by leperkuhn
OK, no big deal. It's on your request list.

Here's my request: option to keep dock sorted alphabetically.
That is a good suggestion and I support it. The Dock can be improved with little things a *lot*. Alphabetic sorting would be on my list. Good idea.

I'm also a big fan of DragThing and would like to use that as a (complete) Dock replacement which is one of the reasons why I'd want to be able to "turn the Dock off" so to speak.

cheers

W-Y

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