[iNub]

I'm thinking of going Linux on my iBook 500, I'm getting past the point of trying with OSX. It's not the OS's fault, it's the iBook. It won't boot anything past 10.1.5, and I mean anything. I've tried every OS release since, every minor dot release, every major. My real question is, since I've been out of the loop as far as Linux on PowerPC is concerned, what's the best distribution to go with? Another thing that I'm wondering is what version of Mac OS can I use with MOL? Can I use OSX with MOL? That would be sweet.

Here's hopin...

Thanks in advance.

[gorgonzola]

The Linux distros available for PPC are Mandrake, Debian, Yellow Dog, and LinuxPPC. I dunno how good the PPC versions of these are or if all of them are still around (specifically LinuxPPC). Debian is probably the best distro, but it's generally for a slightly more advanced Linux user. If you're new, I would recommend trying out Yellow Dog. It's sort of like Red Hat.

And yes, you can run Jaguar in MOL.

[ambush]

Originally posted by iNub:
I'm thinking of going Linux on my iBook 500, I'm getting past the point of trying with OSX. It's not the OS's fault, it's the iBook. It won't boot anything past 10.1.5, and I mean anything. I've tried every OS release since, every minor dot release, every major. My real question is, since I've been out of the loop as far as Linux on PowerPC is concerned, what's the best distribution to go with? Another thing that I'm wondering is what version of Mac OS can I use with MOL? Can I use OSX with MOL? That would be sweet.

Here's hopin...

Thanks in advance.

You should seriously contact apple.

[osxisfun]

i've run and have 10.2.6 on my spare ibook.

you may have bad ram or something...

[OptimusG4]

Originally posted by ambush:
You should seriously contact apple.

Yep. Sounds like its hardware, such as RAM or even the motherboard. My mothers B&W G3 wouldn't go past 10.1.5 and we think its a motherboard failure, though she's happy with 9.2.2 on it for now.

[King Bob On The Cob]

PPCLinux is dead, I'd recommend Yellow Dog Linux, it's the nicest one I know of.

[iNub]

Originally posted by ambush:
You should seriously contact apple.

I would, but it's out of warranty and modded.

It's something to do with the hard disk controller, methinks. I have an IBM hard drive installed, not the stock Toshiba/Apple bastard child thing. It could also be my ethernet port, even 10.1.5 doesn't like it. Hey, speaking of which... Can anybody tell me what a "cell clock" is in regards to ethernet? The OSX boot messages include a couple lines about a cell clock in UniENet or something like that being disabled, and that "ipconfig_get_option has failed (os/kern failure)". This happens no matter how many times I install, so I know it's hardware.

[Cory Bauer]

iNub,
All altering the internals of your computer does is void your warranty. Since your warranty is expried anyhow, it makes no difference that you've altered your computer. Just put the original parts (whatever you switched) back in and get it looked at/fixed at an Apple Store. That would certainly be far more beneficial to you than installing Linux. Yeah, it'll cost you some money, but I think it'd be worth it. Like others have said, it may just be your RAM. It may be your Motherboard. I don't see how installing a different operating system is going to make matters any better. The hardware problems will still be there.

[iNub]

Well, it's also painted and quite beat up. I don't plan to be using this as my main Mac, and quite frankly, with all the graphical doodads in OSX, this poor little Rage 128 is crying for mercy. I plan to buy a G5 in the next year or so, and I have another couple computers that I actually use more than this iBook.

Also, with regards to the bad memory suggestions, I've already tried taking my additional 256 meg stick out. It still freaks, something about AppleCore99PE can't find or is incompatible with iokit. Or maybe it's the other way around. I dunno, I'm just sick of worrying about it. And if I can run 10.2 at 80% native speed in MOL, I'd be happy with that, since Linux is quite fast on PPC hardware, in my experience.

[utidjian]

snippage

Originally posted by iNub:
And if I can run 10.2 at 80% native speed in MOL, I'd be happy with that, since Linux is quite fast on PPC hardware, in my experience.

MOL, if I recall correctly, requires that the "guest" OS, in this case, Mac OS X v 10.2.x be installed correctly. If you can't run Jaguar NOW on the laptop you won't be able to run it via MOL.

[darkmatter]

Hi,

There are two more distributions that could help complete the list above:

SuSE PowerPC http://www.suse.de
gentool linux http://www.gentoo.org

The following could help also:
http://www.freebsd.org/platforms/ppc.html

Bored of waiting an afordable PB and being part of the crowd waiting for the mistery release of Jaguar,I will update a Pismo with a Travelstar 7k60 and 640 Mb Ram. On the following days I will try to install and test some linux flavors on this PB.

For fast webbrowsing on a Pismo or similar systems, I recommend to run Mozilla from X11R6 (Install via fink) or the latest releases of Mozilla or Netscape for the Aqua interface. This is my opinion an may differ from many users. As for now I have been using them very happy and without passionate troubles.

Hope it helps, just my 2 cents opinion
Regards
Darkmatter

[stew]

MOL boots OS X without any problems on my iBook 800. I am using Gentoo Linux on it, and it's a lot snappier than MacOS X.2. Applications lauch faster, web browsers scroll smoothly and it has full support for 3D, sound and airport.

[dfiler]

I wish you luck! Yet my intuition says that linux will not ease your hardware stability/compatibility problems.

Keep us updated...

[soellman]

gentoo and mol work great. you can even download the "livecd" and try it out without having to install it. gentoo's my favorite linux distro, I've been playing with linux since my first debian alphastation in 97..

[Telusman]

I'd try a firmware update to run 10.2, that would probably be the best bet, another thing, modded CPU's don't work very well, my friend had a G3 400 Overclocked to 450 and OS X refused to install, clocking it back down to 400 solved the problem.

[iNub]

I've done a firmware update, and the actual internals of the iBook are unmodded, with the exception of the hard drive. I'm downloading Debian PPC now, because I like apt.

[gorgonzola]

Gentoo is supposed to be nice, but I hear it's still a bit too unpolished for someone new to Linux...

[vsurfer]

Yellow Dog has become popular recently. It's based on Red Hat which is could be beneficial, too. A reviewer said it was also tweaked in several areas and was even superior to REd Hat.

I ran SuSE Linux on my iMac G3 400 -- it worked, was fun even, except for intractable problems with sound.

On the other hand I found SuSE Useless with a capital U, in the Tech Support arena, and Horrendous with a capital H, when it came to updating. I'd never do SuSE again as a result. Compared to mac help fora, the user group was not a useful experience either.

YDL will be my next fling at dual booting on the iMac and maybe even this Powerbook, if it'll let me.

[intastella]

I ran Gentoo on my iBook for a while and if you can get past the install/compile times (a days worth of compiling to get a decent GUI and web browser) it was the easiest to wrap your mind around. With Gentoo you build it from the ground up, learning what is "stock" and what is built on top.

While it is "snappier" you may not end up getting as much done with it as you would on OS X. Just remember all the apps you give up by not running X.

But if you can't run 10.2 on your iBook now, you may not be able to run a Linux without getting panics and freezes either. And with Linux there is no nice "Please restart your computer by holding down the power button" screen like there is with OS 10.2.

Don

[iNub]

I tried Gentoo, whoa. That's a crazy install. I couldn't get yaboot to config right, and I'm sure I followed the install process to the letter.

I'm kinda shakey on YDL, because the package management (RPM) just plain sucks.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by iNub:
It still freaks, something about AppleCore99PE can't find or is incompatible with iokit. Or maybe it's the other way around. I dunno, I'm just sick of worrying about it.

I trust you've done rudimentary research via google?

[url]http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.2.4/[/url

just one link.

[mike one]

Originally posted by iNub:
I've done a firmware update, and the actual internals of the iBook are unmodded, with the exception of the hard drive. I'm downloading Debian PPC now, because I like apt.

i think debian PPC is a decent way to go.
if i were to install any linux distro on my machine it would be debian.

[booboo]

Originally posted by iNub:
I'm downloading Debian PPC now, because I like apt.

Maybe you could give us a step-by-step... installing Linux for Mac Dummies . . .

I for one would appreciate it.

[intastella]

"Maybe you could give us a step-by-step... installing Linux for Mac Dummies . . .

I for one would appreciate it."

Or at least a link to a guide for Debian on PPC. I tried to install it and got nowhere.

Don

[vod[k]a]

I have Mandrake 9.1 on my powerbook, and I can confidently recommend it. It's fast, stable, user friendly, and attractive. Oh, did I mention that it's snappy? I use the "Quartz" theme for KDE, which actually looks like "watercolor," and that makes the interface very pleasing to the eye. The anti-aliased text is nice, and it automatically detected my airport card.

Some drawbacks, though... The installation was confusing, my printers dont work yet, and some aspects of the operating system can be quite confusing, ie, ejecting removable media.

[iNub]

OK, scratch on Debian. Gentoo seems like it could be nice, but it's just too much damn work. I don't want to build my engine before I drive it, I just want to jump in and drive.

Debains HOWTO_installation reads something like this:

How to install Debian GNU/Linux

\*Note to self: Must finish this part.*\

Thank you for choosing Debian GNU/Linux.

[utidjian]

Originally posted by iNub:
I tried Gentoo, whoa. That's a crazy install. I couldn't get yaboot to config right, and I'm sure I followed the install process to the letter.

I'm kinda shakey on YDL, because the package management (RPM) just plain sucks.

Well there is apt-get for RPM based systems (has been for years now). Specifically there is apt-get for YDL-3.0 over at http://freshrpms.net
YUM (Yellowdog Updater Modified) from freshrpms. See also: http://linux.duke.edu/projects/yum/
And synaptic which gives you a nice click and drool GUI frontend to apt-get from freshrpms.net.

There may be reasons to choose Debian over YDL (Mandrake and SuSE are also RPM based) but apt-get is not one of them.

In my opinion there are lots of advantages to using well supported RPM based systems over apt-get/dpkg and emerge/portage. All three systems are ultimately dependent on the quality of the packages. A poorly made package is going to suck no matter what the tool is for installing.

[vod[k]a]

or you could just ignore mandrake!

[iNub]

lol, not ignoring mandrake, i've already tried it. I wasn't happy with the package management. But I have YDL now and I'm gonna try that with YUM. Mandrake and YDL are very similar, buy Yellowdog has more experience with Apple hardware.

A plus about Gentoo, though. I was really digging that, even in console mode, the brightness keys work properly.

[trusted_content]

I would still suggest you have your hardware looked at.

I had the exact same problem (kernel panic on boot, complaining about IOKit) trying to install OS X.2 on a Lombard G3 Powerbook and it turned out it had a defective processor card (apparently pretty common with Lombards), and after replacing it with one I bought off eBay, it worked fine.

I doubt you can swap out the processor card in iBooks (I think it's all one logic board), but it definitely sounds like that's what's at fault. You might as well at least have somebody look at it on the off chance that it's fixable for a good price.

Also, what's to say a Linux installation won't run into the same problems? I know that in the case of the defective Lombard motherboard, people couldn't run Linux either.

[iNub]

If Linux doesn't work, I'm gonna have to get it looked at. (This is a long process because I'm a very busy boy the last couple days.)

[Jim_MDP]

How the bloody hell did you get YDL so fast?

Let me guess...at work, find the right person for whatever you're looking for?

Damn, getting dot-bombed out of a job sucked.

Reading this thread and checking all the links, I'm considering just buying the basic YDL disk pack and trying my luck. I'm a total newb/*nix Luser who at most used some nav and edit commands for the mains and PDPs back at NASA a dozen years ago.

But I'm stuck with my Pismo and still have my Wall Street and am really interested in playing with some Linux on both.

And I'm d/ling one of the GenToo Live CD images right now. maybe later today I'll play with it.

[Jim_MDP]

Hmmm, interesting download. The sole small instruction file assumes more knowledge than I have.

Any straightforward instructions for creating the boot CD? I can't find anything in the file or on the GenToo site.

[warpmoon]

People having trouble with Debian should perhaps check the official Debian page.

Or simply just read the PowerPC installation guide as well as the more general PowerPC site...

They even have specific guides for some of the portables like the iBook or TiBook.

[Colddiver2]

I tried the following distros:

- Gentoo on PPC
- Gentoo on x86
- Red Hat on x86
- Yellow Dog on PPC
- Debian on PPC

For those intending to use linux on Apple hardware (not some other kind of PPC platform), I strongy suggest using Yellow Dog. It is by far the easiest to configure on Apple hardware and, for me at least, it is the one that runs the smoothest.

Linux is still linux but unless you are very very familiar with terminal command and happy to configure stuff manually by editing .*rc files with pico (or any other console text editor of your choice), Yellow Dog is for you. It is made to run on Apple hardware and, as such, you won't have to try to find out the specific properties of your hardware to get a decent user experience (anyone who struggled to make X work right or to get the damn internet to work knows what I am talking about).

Good luck but, as the other said, if you have hardware issues, linux is probably not going to be the solution (unless you can remove support for such hardware and still having a functional computer in the end).

Colddiver

[Jim_MDP]

Now how the hell do I get Gnome (that would be the window mgr, right?) running on this GenToo LiveCD?

It's been an interesting two hours, that's for sure. I've bash'ed my way through 'info' and I'm no closer to knowing how to use this.

BTW CD2...I'm on my seventh Mac, have had one in my home since April '84 (no, that's NOT a typo), can even use regedit without breaking '98 or NT (it's been a couple years). Hell, it's just a matter of not being scared.

These boxes are after all, how I made a living for the past fifteen years.

But, until I get out of Linux's CLI, I'm lost.

Ok, back to the mines.

Hey, Nub...how's it coming?

[intastella]

"Now how the hell do I get Gnome (that would be the window mgr, right?) running on this GenToo LiveCD?"

First make sure you are using the right CD. Their explanation of which Live CD to use is confusing. Download and burn the "livecd-ppc-1.4.iso" from whatever_mirror_site.org/releases/ppc/1.4/livecd/. Don't get an image with grp in the name. Those are install cd'sas far as I can tell.

You should be able to get to Gnome from there, just follow the on screen instructions.

Don

[Jim_MDP]

Originally posted by intastella:
First make sure you are using the right CD. Their explanation of which Live CD to use is confusing.
Download and burn the "livecd-ppc-1.4.iso" from whatever_mirror_site.org/releases/ppc/1.4/livecd/.
Don't get an image with grp in the name. Those are install cd'sas far as I can tell.

You should be able to get to Gnome from there, just follow the on screen instructions.

Don

-Got it
-Did it
-Didn't
-Can't quite

But...progress.
F'n case dependent commands got me. Didn't know I had to cap "Xeasyconf". Got through that to "startx" and ended up in TWM. How do I get Gnome to launch? Yes I've nano'd rc.conf.

Dammit, "info" don't cover the commands I need. And I can't find these answers on the net so far.

Here's an important one...
What's the modifier (or alternate command) for 'ls' to display one page at a time?

Also, eventually I'd like to see Mac-on-Linux work. But how do I access it (or any other file) on my internal volume? Or will that be moot if I can get GWM to run first?

[intastella]

The on screen instructions tell you to run setup. They should have put it in quotes or something but type in "setup" (without the quotes) after logging in as root. It will guide you through choosing the window manager and setting up X. Then type in "startx" and you're off.

Running Mac on Linux with the Live cd probably isn't possible.

Don

[iNub]

The LiveCD is nice, but it's incredibly slow to start. I installed Gentoo, and while it's nice, it's too much work to install software. Although I did learn a lot. Like how to compile a kernel, how to write /etc/fstab, how to write /etc/yaboot.conf. In the end, though, I gave up when it told me I'd have to compile X11 *and* KDE. That can easily take 16 hours on my modest 500 MHz G3. So I started downloading YDL.

<3 movie interval>

I installed YDL. Took less time than figuring out just what the hell a System.map is, and I was up and running. Using YDL 3.0 now, and it's mandatory that you download all 3 CD's. Now, my only problem is the Network configuration program crashes when I launch it, no matter what I do. I updated everything with apt, installed a lot of stuff, and nothing. Oh well, I know how to turn the interfaces on and off through the command line, and how to configure them. No real loss. I gotta say, though. Mozilla Firebird is FAST AS HELL under X11. I may not even bother with MOL, this does everything I need. Except play video, that I'm still working on. Xine sucks to install, VLC is even worse, and mplayer is MIA. It'll come together in the end, I suppose. Even if it doesn't, I've still got Debian to try.

And RPM still sucks.

[Jim_MDP]

Originally posted by iNub:
It'll come together in the end, I suppose. Even if it doesn't, I've still got Debian to try.

And RPM still sucks.

Ok, well I'll try setup this time. See where that gets me.

Oh, and what's with the cursor speed in TWM?

Damn thing's on crack.

[iNub]

Gnome is not the Window Manager, by the way. Gnome is the desktop environment. It's a goofy arrangement. It's not like OSX, where everything is called "Quartz" and "Aqua."

KDE is a manager for all the programs, desktop, layout. The Window Manager (KDE uses Sawfish, Gnome uses Enlightement by default.) is what gives the individual windows their appearance and functionality. Finally, the Display Server is what tells the windows where to go, what size to be, and it (if I'm not mistaken) also controls the clipboard and the mouse. I'm sure they do more, but that's the basic idea of it, as far as I know.

There are other Window Managers available, too.

Blackbox for the stylish minimalist (who really, really likes black and small buttons).
AfterStep for the NeXT freak. Also, this is probably the most Mac-like WM for *nix around, in terms of customizability and widget functions.
IceWM is a very Windows-like manager, and IMO ugly and hard to use. (They went that extra mile to emulate Windows behavior, I suppose. )

I think I've hit all the big ones. Probably not, I'm a sawfish user through and through.

edit: Trying to write my vB code in C again, dammit.

[iNub]

Oh, I forgot Qt and GTK+ in the list of "managers"... They are in charge of what's actually *inside* the windows. So when you change themes, you have to change themes for 4 different things to get a global appearance.

This is what happens when we let geeks take charge of their own programs.

[iNub]

There's no way to set up the cursor speed in TWM. TWM is ugly and simple and stupid. It's also the failsafe, and if TWM comes up when you've got another WM configured, you know something's broken, but you still have a somewhat graphical environment to work in.

[intastella]

"(KDE uses Sawfish, Gnome uses Enlightement by default.)"

Actually Gnome uses Metacity.

Don

[trusted_content]

Originally posted by iNub:
KDE is a manager for all the programs, desktop, layout. The Window Manager (KDE uses Sawfish, Gnome uses Enlightement by default.)

KDE uses Kwin by default.

Gnome, as the guy above me said, uses Metacity.

[Jim_MDP]

Well now I've seen it...and I'm underwhelmed.

Twitchy little buggers ain't they? I can handle the slight stutter start in OSX's scrolling say, if if produces the smoothness we all are accustomed to. Yeah, I was on XP for a few minutes last month and it was the same way (horrible memories of working all day on 98/NT came flooding back. )

Ok, much to learn now so I'm not giving in nor giving up, but as I said...

BTW, two things...

I got it seudo working by using 'Gnome-session'. This after 'startx' which launched TWM. I couldn't exit TWM without killing X and dropping me back to the GenToo CLI. Couldn't actually get anything configured (couldn't even see my router) so I just explored the enviro for an hour or so and rebooted to OS X.

Second, much more important. How do I see my internal drive and files?

[iNub]

Your internal drive is usually /dev/hda

If you have an HFS or HFS+ disk, you need to have a kernel compiled with support for them. After that, it's as simple as making a directory to mount them in, and mounting them. I don't know the exact details on how to do this, but "man mount" should tell you how to do it. (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.)

If your machine is connected to your router, it's easy enough to see your router.

Code:
dhcpcd ethX

Where "X" is the number of the network interface you want to configure. Normally with wired enet it's 0, and with Airport it's 1.

Then do "ifconfig -a" and look for "UP" and "RUNNING" in the properties of the interface you just connected. Then you can lynx to the web, ssh, whatever. The livecd is pretty much a full Linux.

KDE uses Kwin by default.

Gnome, as the guy above me said, uses Metacity.

As I said, I've been out of the loop with Linux. Last I checked, it was Sawfish and E. Thanks for correcting me.

[Jim_MDP]

Having added too many X Window related files and not knowing how to get them working, I'm thinking of a rebuild of my system.

I've posted a new "starting over" thread in the Unix room and I would appreciate any help and comments.

As I ended the OP there...

"This should be fun. "

[Jim_MDP]

btt