[Fred_Cokebottle]

Why not develop a vaccine against H5N1 for all the birds instead of killing them and also use the same vaccine for ourselves? Just thinking aloud. Any virologists/immunologists here?

[FulcrumPilot]

News from Hungary: (Google is my friend)

AFX News Limited
Prototype bird flu vaccine tests well on humans - Hungarian minister
10.19.2005, 01:59 PM

BUDAPEST (AFX) - A prototype vaccine being developed in Hungary for use against the deadly Asian strain of bird flu has produced positive results on humans, Health Minister Jeno Racz announced Wednesday.

'Clinical trials gave positive results, the blood of the (human) guinea-pigs produced antibodies,' Racz told a news conference.

'Hungary now has the technology to quickly and effectively produce large quantities of a vaccine against a mutated version of the virus,' said Laszlo Bujdoso, head of Hungary's veterinary services (ANTSZ), which developed the protoype.

The prototype vaccine was developed from cells from the H5N1 strain of bird flu which was first identified in 1997 and isolated in early 2005 in a patient in southeast Asia by the World Health Organisation.

The strain has killed 60 people in Asia since 2003 and scientists fear it may eventually mutate into a contagious, lethal virus that could cause a catastrophic global pandemic.

Earlier Wednesday, Bujdoso said the prototype had proved effective on birds and could be used to vaccinate them.

'If the clinical trials are positive this prototype will serve as a basis for the production of a real vaccine,' he added.

He conceded, however, that the process was something of a gamble.

'As this (mutated) version of the virus does not at the moment exist it is naturally impossible to develop a vaccine against this type,' Bujdoso said.

Three weeks ago the Hungarian authorities began to test the prototype on volunteers, among them the health minister and Bujdoso himself.

[von Wrangell]

1. Difficulty in developing the vaccine.

2. Effectively of the vaccine.

3. Difficulty (impossible really) to vaccinate all birds.

That's it basically.

[Kerrigan]

Why would they use a vaccination on birds when we can't even afford to vaccinate the majority of at-risk people?

[FulcrumPilot]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

1. Difficulty in developing the vaccine.

2. Effectively of the vaccine.

3. Difficulty (impossible really) to vaccinate all birds.

That's it basically.

From what little immunology I know, even if some "epitopes" of the antigen are in common with a mutated version I think this will help immunize. But I may be missing something who knows.


It seems it will take 4 months or so to go full scale production, so even if they start producing a version like the Hungarians have started to it is better than waiting for it to strike, IMHO.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by FulcrumPilot

From what little immunology I know, even if some "epitopes" of the antigen are in common with a mutated version I think this will help immunize. But I may be missing something who knows.

Our immune system is highly specific which makes it very difficult to create a vaccine unless you have the exact right strain.

There's also the risk that if the vaccine isn't specific enough certain strains (and slightly mutated vDNA/vRNA) will survive better which can have drastic effects on the effects of the virus.

[simonjames]

I find it interesting that the world's media is concentrating on the bird flu crossing over to humans and becoming the next 'black plague'.

What would happen to the world's ecosystem if it lost 80% of the bird population? Serious $hit would happen. I believe they should be trying to cure the virus in the bird population first.

[Kerrigan]

I believe they should be trying to cure the virus in the bird population first.

Even the WHO would laugh at that notion.

[FulcrumPilot]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Our immune system is highly specific which makes it very difficult to create a vaccine unless you have the exact right strain.

There's also the risk that if the vaccine isn't specific enough certain strains (and slightly mutated vDNA/vRNA) will survive better which can have drastic effects on the effects of the virus.

What I was saying was that several B-lymphocytes can be activated to recognize the H5N1 coat for example. So even if the H5N1 mutates atleast some the "epitopes" would not have changed and hence you will be able to mount an attack and stop it quickly. anyways, so instead of giving the virus enough time to survive inside you, so that it can mutate through transmission into another host perhaps and come up with something new way to beat the whole system, we could slow it down by creating bottle necks for its evolution.

So basically if you can buy more time and prepare your system to quickly get rid of an infection the more likely it is that the virus cannot evolve a new strategy. Anyway the more I think the more I feel sure about what I am saying. Your response has done nothing to stop my line of thought.


EDIT: in reterospect this may already be happening with all those bird handlers, they probably have some immunity to H5N1 already! It will be a real bitch of a situation if this virus splices with an old flu virus and makes a killer flu virus with very little coat proteins from the H5N1 strain. I think this will be a rare event which is why it is not yet spreading from human to human just as yet.

BTW, those of you who do not believe in the evolutionary process have nothing to fear!

[ort888]

That's a great idea. Why don't we use it to cure other diseases as well. Why don't they just make an AIDS vaccine and cure that?

The answer was right in front of our faces this whole time!

[simonjames]

Kerrigan - thanks for the attempt at understanding and the kind response. You're obviously a person of high intellect