[one sick puppy]

I just sold my iBook G4 and had intended to replace it with a MacBook, but after pricing out similar PCs, I'm surprised how expensive the MacBooks are relative to PC laptops. When I bought my iBook G4, there was very little on the market that could compete with the iBook's features (size, performance, battery life, etc.), so despite being having to get used to a new OS, I opted for the iBook and was generally very impressed with OSX while I had it. Now, however, I'm shopping for a new laptop, and since I can use either OSX, I could go either way as far as an OS is concerned (and atypical as it is, I like both XP and OSX).

Dell had a special on last week (and knowing Dell, they will have a better deal on in 2 or 3 weeks) which included the following specs:

Model: 640m
Core Duo 2050 1.6ghz 533fsb
512mb RAM (1-stick)
14.1 WXGA+ (1440x900) glare-type
100GB HDD
9-cell battery
DVD Burner

This was $859 CAD, in comparison to the MacBook which is $1199 (student price). Needless to say, I'm very unimpressed with Apple at this point, because the better CPU on the MacBook and the camera/remote control are certainly not enough to justify the extra expense, and I don't want an iPod so their "educational" promotion is not appealing to me. 2 years ago, it was cheaper for me to buy an Apple than a comparable PC, now it's alot more expensive.

I hope they drop the price on the MacBook before school, else I'm going back to Windows for this school year.

[mduell]

NEWSFLASH: This just in, Dell computers are less expensive than Apple computers.

Of course, the Dell doesn't have DVI or a built in camera, it's thicker, and it's using a lower CPU model with a slower clockrate and slower FSB.

And someone will mention that the Dell doesn't include OSX/comparable software and/or that they'd gladly pay $300 for OSX in 3... 2... 1...

(Note to other readers: The 640m is the same as the E1405.)

[imitchellg5]

I have always been willing to pay a premium for Apple products, Apples have always been more expensive and it's not about to change anytime soon.

[Jawbone54]

That's nice. have fun with your Dell.

[analogika]

slower processor
slower FSB
probably only VGA out
much more glare on the display
MUCH bulkier and heavier
Only 100baseT Ethernet
Bluetooth?
Integrated WLAN (Airport)?
optical audio in/out?

and of course, a biggie:
included software?

And suddenly, that Dell looks like an overpriced, underdesigned barge.

[macboy]

I agree and disagree with you. Agree because Apple has to really price competitively if they want to win some market share from Dell, Sony & Compaq. Disagree because Camera & Remote control arent the only things that seperate the $200 price. There's iLife, which is EXTREMELY handy, there's Tiger of course, both of them are easily worth that $200..

So in the long run, your getting the built-in iSight, and Remote, free when comparing to the Dell along with having to keep OSX and Windows. :-)

I've been usign Windows all my life and I would glady opt for a mac if it was priced a little higher than a Dell machine, just for the incredible amount of productivity I get out of it, without having the buy seperate programs in the case of Windows

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by analogika

and of course, a biggie:
included software?

Remember the get a Mac ads? PCs come with lots of fun software like a calculator and clock.

[Hi I'm Ben]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

Remember the get a Mac ads? PCs come with lots of fun software like a calculator and clock.

In all fairness basic PC setup comes with some other stuff....

Anyway, I hope you love your Dell. Remember not only is Picasa free but Ad-Aware too!

[mduell]

Originally Posted by analogika

MUCH bulkier and heavier
Integrated WLAN (Airport)?

The Dell is about the same weight and a quarter inch thicker.
The Dell includes the same wifi card as the MacBook. The Dell even has an 802.11n (100Mbps+) option.

At the US store the current promo includes a gig of RAM and a DVD burner for $859USD.

[one sick puppy]

As I mentioned, two years ago when I bought my iBook G4, it was MUCH better priced than a comparable Dell. At that time, the decision was between the Dell 700m and the iBook, with the 700m at least $300 more expensive. The only other 12" display laptop computers under $2000 CAD that were available to me were the Averatec brand laptops. I'm just dissapointed that Apple is not keeping up, because the MacBooks are certainly quite nice looking machines.

[mrplow]

Without even reading the entire article, I'd like to throw in that I purchased a 1.83 Core Duo for $999 freeship/tax free... and I don't think Apple's prices were ever as close to the competition as they are now, in terms of comparison (they had been far slower for a long time). I'm not saying I love Apple's prices, especially the Mini and MacPro's.. but you can't beat the iMac or the Macbook. You're either insane or have never used one if you think otherwise. ((or infact paid too much, as Amazon w/rebate is the best way to go... especially with a 20% coupon((AMEX Christmas promo))))

[aristobrat]

Originally Posted by one sick puppy

I'm just dissapointed that Apple is not keeping up, because the MacBooks are certainly quite nice looking machines.

Have you seen commentary on Dell lately? It's probably a very good thing that Apple's not keeping up with Dell's crazy pricing!

NY TIMES NEWS SERVICE , NEW YORK
Sunday, Jul 23, 2006,Page 11

Dell Inc, once a corporate symbol of hyper-efficient production and marketing, stumbled again on Friday as it warned that quarterly profits would be 30 percent lower than expected.

The announcement rattled investors, pulling Dell shares down by nearly 10 percent to a five-year low and contributing to the stock market's decline.

The new setback, analysts said, raised further questions about whether the troubles are worsening at Dell, the world's largest personal computer maker, and whether its management can turn things around anytime soon.

"The Dell model is not working as it did in the past," said Charles Wolf, an analyst at Needham & Co, who has a "hold" recommendation on the company.

"Dell has yet to really deal with the problem," he said.

Dell's profit margins and sales growth, analysts note, have been eroding for more than a year. It is more dependent on the US market and on corporate customers than rivals like Hewlett-Packard Co, at a time when international markets and consumer buyers have generated most of the growth in the PC industry.

Dell's profit advantage over competitors is greatest in desktop computers, which it assembles in its own factories. But recently, growth in desktop machines has trailed well behind notebooks, which are all produced abroad, mainly in China and Taiwan.

In the past, Dell could cut prices and gain market share without hurting profit. That was because its model of selling directly over the Internet and 800-phone numbers and its highly efficient management of supplies and production gave Dell a sizable profit margin advantage over competitors.

But Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo Group Ltd (聯想) and others have closed the efficiency gap, and reduced Dell's profit-margin advantage. So when it cuts prices to hold market share, as it did in the most recent quarter, Dell's profit takes a hit.

Dell, analysts said, has also suffered recently from poor customer service and a lag in product development, especially in notebook machines with multimedia features.

"In the spirit of efficiency, Dell cut corners on customer service and product development, and they are paying the price," said A.M. Sacconaghi, an analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein & Co.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/.../23/2003320063

[bembol]

I'm not impressed with BMW, Infiniti, Acura and Lexus' pricing either but it's the only car that will sit in my driveway...!!!

[uicandrew]

Originally Posted by bembol

I'm not impressed with BMW, Infiniti, Acura and Lexus' pricing either but it's the only car that will sit in my driveway...!!!

i second that! I have never met anyone who said "I'm really impressed with the prices of Macs"

I think of pcs as the lowest common denominator "everyman" machine. On the other hand, a mac is more classier, more expensive machine. I feel lucky enough to be able to afford and use macs.

For many people, they go into best buy and circuit city and buy which ever one has the largest rebates. i know because my previous pc was a entry level $500 dell.

we pay for innovation and the OS. and now with bootcamp, you're getting 2 computers for the price of one.

The one argument that i could supporting the original poster is that Tiger has been hacked to work on generic PCs. so why pay for the hardware premium when you don't have to? It'd be like cherry picking the best out of apple. it's a way to save money. not pretty, but "effective"

[one sick puppy]

Originally Posted by bembol

I'm not impressed with BMW, Infiniti, Acura and Lexus' pricing either but it's the only car that will sit in my driveway...!!!

I'm sure you're very proud to have alot of money, nice cars, etc. Some of us don't even have a driveway, let alone a car to park in it. Alas, I suppose it all boils down to the fact that Dell caters to a wider range of people on the socio-economic ladder.

[masugu]

Others may call me on what I said in another thread about Apple not letting itself be taken seriously without a docking station solution by business....However, Apple does not seem to ever want to target the mass low-price shopper - regardless if that is the IT manager or Joe Shmoe. Therefore you will always pay a premium for Apple style, fit & finish and that something special called the OS.

[Sparksymusic]

Ultimately, you get what you pay for. I use both PCs & Macs. Macs are definately overpriced and I do believe they should come down a little. However, PCs are cheaper because they do less and still stuff up too much! I found I made up for the cost of my G5 by not spending a lot of time fixing basic PC problems (OS glitches, driver issues etc.) The mac is a big ask upfront but can be worth it in the end. Plus (as mentioned) there is the iSight & smaller size on the Macbook.

[Apple IIgs]

Is Apple phone support located in the US? It definitely isn't when it comes to Dell. In fact not even their billing department is state side. When it comes to phone support Dell is rated in the sewers if my memory is correct.

[bryanmsi]

MagSafe adapter is worth $75 bucks just on its own, or quite possible way more as anyone who has tripped over his power cord and then had to send the computer in for repairs can attest.

And Picasa is NOT iPhoto, let alone iDVD and iMovie. Getting credible replacements for the PC will cost another $100 easily.

By the time you finish making the PC comparable to the MacBook, the price premium will be small. I won't dispute that there is a premium, but its not as big as you'd think. The first time you try to burn a DVD on that Dell, you'll see where the money went.

[hldan]

I'm not sure what the original poster is trying to do, get us to agree or disagree with him.

Okay, Yes the Dell he's comparing is cheaper.

Yes, he's fine with either Mac OSX or Windows XP

Yes, he doesn't care for the MacBook's remote and camera.

Yes, he "seems" to have the same software for both platforms so switching from the Mac back to a PC will be painless.

So, it looks like he knows what he wants and has made up his mind so what does he want a "Mac Forum" to tell him to do buy the Dell?? Okay so I will take care of this for him, Buy the Dell and move on buddy if it's gonna make you happy!

[itguy05]

As someone with a lot of IT experience, I'll tell you, the Dell is a POS computer. They are built very poorly and are generally not good computers compared to the other PC's on the market.

I'm very unimpressed with Apple at this point, because the better CPU on the MacBook and the camera/remote control are certainly not enough to justify the extra expense,

That being said, the Dell is a slower CPU, no Bluetooth, no camera, no WiFi, poorer quality, poorer OS, and probably won't last you through your studies.

However, have you looked at Amazon.com - they have $100 off the Macbook, which may be a better deal than the edu store.

I'd never, ever buy a Dell - they are utter garbage. It's about spending a little more now and having a reliable machine, something Dell does not comprehend.

I'm not impressed with BMW, Infiniti, Acura and Lexus' pricing either but it's the only car that will sit in my driveway...!!!

Actually I was impressed enough with Infiniti's pricing to put a G35 in my driveway. All the handling of the 3-series BMW, better performance than 95% of cars on the road, and about $5-10k cheaper than the BMW. It has been a flawless car for me for the past 2.5 years!

[imitchellg5]

Apple phone support is in the US, and everything over the phone for Dell is in India. I had to call someone there once, I just gave up and hung up the phone. Apple has the highest rated customer service and phone support of any computer manufacturer.

[macboy]

Yeah Dell's support is awful. They really need to get people on the phone who know what they're talking about out of the little that I understand, and Im from India, so you can assume how cheap these services are that Dell are hiring.

[Parky]

Buy the Dell, if that is what you want.
Pay your money take your choice, easy.

[wowway1]

Hey, did you factor in what you got for your G4 iBook when you SOLD it? Think that Dell will hold similar value a couple of years from now? I think not. You have to consider that in your final purchase price.

[fox-orian]

Dell. *cold shivers*

Whenever I think of Dell, I think of a creaky computer covered in sticky crusted Coca Cola spills, odd urine-colored stains on the innard metal parts & bottom of keyboard, a broken power-button, chipped off paint, and matted with blankets of dust on the fans and heatsink.
Then, some pothead popping up in your face saying, "Wuaha, Duude you're gettin' a delllll."


I AM a PC user and even then, Dell makes me cringe in disgust. You know you don't care about what you use for a computer when you buy a Dell. Buying a Dell is like the middle-aged man who only resorts to wearing sweat-pants. [I could say the same about eMachine, but they're just altogether below the charts.]

Have you looked at Dell's computers with specs on-par / slightly beyond that of the MacBook/Pro?
Some of their XPS systems run into the $2500+ price ranges, especially that foldable desktop solution system they made [similar to the iMac, but with attached keyboard.]

I mean, I could care less what computer a person resorts to buying -- Apple, PC, or otherwise. Personally, I would tell you to get an Acer TravelMate system. Those are at least some of the higher quality PC laptops, in terms of build, hardware, and features with $1000-/+ pricetags. But a Dell.... anything but a dell.



::::: NOTE: Apple's academic program dosen't just give you a free ipod. It removes $150 from the pricetag of any MacBook. I should know, thats what I got off mine for the Art Institute of Boston. The Ipod Offer is just a summer-only deal to give people a little extra help in equipping their gadgetry.

[one sick puppy]

I'd consider gambling on an online purchase for a Mac over $1000 if I was more certain I'd get as flawless a machine as my second iBook G4 (the first one had an overheating video chip). However, Apple's reputation for quality control and superb hardware is quite blemished with the over-abundant heatsink compound issue, the discoloration and the battery bulge, any whatever other problems they might have. I've already had a lemon from Apple, and apparently they are notorious for having very problematic first-generation products. For computers that are supposed to be top quality, I don't feel any more confident that I'm not going to get a lemon buying an Apple over a Dell.

The academic program in canada only gives you $50 off, and the iPod coupon. $50 is less than 5% of the price.

[GoDucks]

No withstanding the price/value debate when you add in the options and software that Apple includes with the Macbook, I think the following from this week's Business Week applies to Apple...

"Customer experience is one of today's great frontiers for innovation. While the concept isn't exactly new—it was coined by designers and became more widely known to the business community through the work of Joe Pine and Jim Gilmore's 1998 Harvard Business Review article and subsequent book Welcome to the Experience Economy—in my estimation we are still at the dawn of the Experience Age. And, it is my prediction that in this new age, customer experience will decide the winners and losers in almost every industry imaginable.


3. Premium Pricing. Customers will gladly pay more for an experience that is not only functionally but also emotionally rewarding. Companies that are skilled at unlocking emotional issues, then creating economic value propositions that win with consumers, avoid commoditization"

[Elektrix]

Originally Posted by fox-orian

:::: NOTE: Apple's academic program dosen't just give you a free ipod. It removes $150 from the pricetag of any MacBook. I should know, thats what I got off mine for the Art Institute of Boston. The Ipod Offer is just a summer-only deal to give people a little extra help in equipping their gadgetry.

Wait, huh? How do you get that deal? From what I've seen when I visit the Education Store, the Academic discount on the regular MB is about $50, and it doesn't get any better than $100 off of the Black MacBook. How do you get $150 off any MB price in addition to the $150 rebate for the iPod Nano?

[lamewing]

Originally Posted by mduell

NEWSFLASH: This just in, Dell computers are less expensive than Apple computers.

Of course, the Dell doesn't have DVI or a built in camera, it's thicker, and it's using a lower CPU model with a slower clockrate and slower FSB.

And someone will mention that the Dell doesn't include OSX/comparable software and/or that they'd gladly pay $300 for OSX in 3... 2... 1...

(Note to other readers: The 640m is the same as the E1405.)

I am NOT a fan of Dell computers, but my wife uses a Dell Laditude for work and ...

The DVI truly isn't that big a deal if it has VGA out. Most people really don't care that much (I know many Mac-heads DO care, but the average laptop user really doesn't)

My wife's Dell is about .5 inches thicker. So what?

These don't really matter one way or the other to me, BUT the fact that her Dell's little (and very quite) fan runs most of the time - keeping her laptop totally cool, even under load, is really annoying. Why can't Apple allow its users to manually control their fans? Especially with the high heat that the new systems produce....

[fox-orian]

Originally Posted by Elektrix

Wait, huh? How do you get that deal? From what I've seen when I visit the Education Store, the Academic discount on the regular MB is about $50, and it doesn't get any better than $100 off of the Black MacBook. How do you get $150 off any MB price in addition to the $150 rebate for the iPod Nano?

The online price for academic discount is $100. As far as I also know, some schools get higher discounts than others depending on what they offer. My school is an "Apple School." I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but with the combination of my college, and the fact that I bought the laptop in the store, I got $150 off my macbook. *shrug*

Also, while the iPod offer covers $150 towards the purchase of an iPod, this offer has no conneciton to an academic discount, and can be claimed up to two weeks after initial purchase.

[SLiMeX]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54

That's nice. have fun with your Dell.

[Waragainstsleep]

Don't forget, assuming M$ do a better job of updating their OS more regularly than they have been recently, the Dell will probably not run the latest version of Windows for more than say 3 years tops. Until it was very recently stolen, my 7 year old PowerBook G3 was still running Tiger, and while it wasn't the fastest, it was rock solid. Even if you only string a MacBook out for 5 years, thats only a couple of hundred bucks for two years of useful life. Plus the resale value will likely be higher after 5 years than the Dell after 3.

Still look overpriced?

If you want overpriced, look no further than the MBP. Twice as much as the MacBook with only a bigger screen and better graphics card.

[analogika]

You forgot to mention the ExpressCard slot, auto-dimming display & keyboard backlight (excellent value for stage musicians/sound guys), and matte screen option (indispensible for graphics pros).

And it's not "twice as much" as the MacBook; it's a 50% premium (unless you assuming the slowest MacBook, in which case you can add higher speed AND Superdrive to that list).

Is the MacBook Pro worth the difference? I'm not sure, though if you need an expansion slot and/or a decent graphics card, the question is moot, anyway.

[bojangles]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. When the time came to get a new computer, my then-employer—who swore by Dell and had never purchased anything else for anyone in his company—asked me to price out a refurbished Power Mac G4, a brand new Power Mac G5, and a high-end Dell, spec’ed as closely as possible. The results?

Two categories were a three-way tie: fax modem and warranty.
The G4 and G5 tied for first in two categories: Microsoft Office software and PDF software.
The Dell and the G4 tied for first in one category: included speakers (Harmon-Kardon speakers with each vs. internal speaker on the G5).
The Dell won one category, full stop: included mouse (Intellimouse Optical vs. Apple Pro Mouse).
The G5 won ten categories, full stop: OS, processor, bus speed, hard drive, optical drive, graphics, RAM (including expandability), peripheral ports, PCI interface/speed, and color-matching.

Now here’s the kicker:

Power Mac G4: $3,407.46
Power Mac G5: $4,126.00
Dell Precision: $6,308.00


Good thing Dells are less expensive….

[iRussel]

For me buyng a computer is like buying a bed or television set.

Why buy a cheap bed when I sleep 8 hours a day on it. Sure I can save $200 by getting a crappy bed but then I don't sleep well.

I remember awhile back when my sister and I were both in the market for a new TV. She saved herself $200 and bought the RCA. I bought a Sony. Two years later she noticed her picture wasn't really that good anymore (It never really was in my mind). The picture on my sony is still perfect. Why is it that way, probably due to the components the RCA used compared to the components the Sony uses.

Yep go buy a Dell and save yourself some money, after all you usually get what you pay for.

[gudin]

Well, you could always sell the iPod, use the $100 amazon rebate, compare the Dell model with the same processor, and add XP Pro to it. . . . I think the difference in price will be essentially negligible then. Slightly more or slightly less.

Then again the dell won't run your existing mac software, while the mac will run any PC software you've got. Apple's service is also hugely better, and Apple computers are also cooler and more likely to be babe-magnets. :-D

[legacyb4]

Unless gaming is key for you, by far the biggest draw that the MacBook has for me now is the ability to either dual-boot and/or virtual compute at near-native speeds. Waiting for the 2nd gen MacBooks to come out (speed bumped, upgraded, whatever) in January or so and I'll be passing on my PB12 to someone in need...

[itguy05]

Originally Posted by one sick puppy

I'd consider gambling on an online purchase for a Mac over $1000 if I was more certain I'd get as flawless a machine as my second iBook G4 (the first one had an overheating video chip). However, Apple's reputation for quality control and superb hardware is quite blemished with the over-abundant heatsink compound issue, the discoloration and the battery bulge, any whatever other problems they might have.

Let's see here - the heatsink compound "issue" is really not an issue - my wife's MB is perfect and it's no hotter or cooler than my 15" G4 PB. And they are taking care of the battery and discoloration issues. As I can attest with my wife's G3 iBook with the famous hinge and motherboard issues, they will get taken care of.

Still better reliability than any POS Dell. I'm in IT and would never, ever reccomend a Dell to anyone.

For computers that are supposed to be top quality, I don't feel any more confident that I'm not going to get a lemon buying an Apple over a Dell.

All the reliability studies (PC Magazine, Consumer's Reports, etc) put Apple as #1 and Dell as slipping fast. Those are the facts.

[Mr. Strat]

Go for it. Get that Dell. Get your wallet out for some decent anti-virus and andi-spyware software...and since you're into great deals...why not pick up an e-Machine while you're at it. They're cheaper than Macs too.

[darcybaston]

From a comments exchange on Digg, regarding "But Dell is cheaper":

I'm writing this for fun, and because I wanted to really have a look at what value can be found in one or the other. I've used both Dells and iBook/MacBooks and I like 'em both for various reasons.

"I really prefer having a second mouse button for alt-click "

It's control-click, but buying a two button mouse for $20 is easily done. Just because a computer comes with a mouse, doesn't mean your ability to get what you want disappears. Keep Apple's as a spare if your preferred one dies. I don't recall having ever control+clicked on my Macs except maybe during a quirky emulation moment using UAE (Amiga emulator).

"I also don't have to worry with MacOS updates every year which cost alot of money and give very marginal updates."

Again you show this...NEED...to use/buy what you're told. Why? Upgrade only if you find the new features desirable considering what you want to do with your tool the computer. The way you've said it, you make it sound like you're happiest when a product is not actively developed. OS X is not just updated once a year. It's updated many times throughout the year. The paying part only occurs when you want to get 100+ new features in one fell swoop with the box, the media, the support, the new features, the new tools etc. OS X 10.n revisions and Windows Service Packs are not the same. OS X 10.n.n revisions (free) are much closer. OS X upgrades and Windows Security patches are also not the same. OS X security patches and Windows security patches are much more closer linked, although the OS X patches usually involve updating open source software unrelated to OS X, like Apache, whereas the Windows updates are to fill holes of its own swiss-cheese self.

"the heat from the MacBook was too much for me to deal with"

I haven't experienced this. Look at this article too: http://www.krischeonline.com/staticp...p?page=macbook . The heat difference is marginal.

"and I could get alot more bang for the dollar from Dell. For $1500 before tax (MacBook is $1,299) , I got:
-3 year warranty, (MacBook is 1 year)
-1GB ram (MacBook is 512MB)
-100GB 7200RPM hard drive (MacBook is 60GB)
-DVD burner (MacBook has it)
-Geforce 7400 Go graphics card (MacBook has Intel integrated)
-built in webcam (MacBook has it)
-Windows Media Center 2005 (MacBook has Front Row)
-with remote (MacBook has it)
-12" screen at 1280x800 resolution and (MacBook has 13" )"
-Intel 2.16GHz dual core CPU. (MacBook has 2.0GHz)"

MacBook with fewer hardware features costs less, by $201.

With a MacBook, you're missing:
-2 year warranty (Apple Care for 3 years is $249)
-512 MB RAM (At Crucial.com, another 512MB for MacBook is $59.39)
-Geforce 7400 Go ($150?)
-160MHz CPU bost per core ($100?)

Because of Dell's positive specs and warranty, Dell hardware/warranty saves you $558.39

With a MacBook you gain Firewire and optical audio in/out (What's that worth to you? $50?).

That makes the MacBook *seem* like it costs $307.39 more, but let's not forget bundled software extras. With a MacBook you get:

-Install/restore DVDs (I'm guessing the Dell has the same. One for OS and another for Software.)

-Hardware Test (boot your computer and scan hex addresses in ram and everything. What's this worth to you? $20?)

-Mail 2 (OE is free, but doesn't do things like dynamic auto updated folders, threaded views, has no known viruses etc. What's that worth to you? $20?)

-Address Book 4 (AB in Windows is free, but it doesn't do network sharing, label printing, synchronization with Palm/iPod etc. What's that worth, $20?)

-iChat AV 3 (AIM is free, but it doesn't do 3-way conferences, higher quality imaging, wireless auto-discovery of nearby contacts not online etc. What's that worth, $20?)

-iCal 2 (Does Windows come with a calendaring app that will publish, share, subscribe to multiple calendars, sync with Palm/iPod etc.? What's that worth? Outlook costs hundreds. Let's just call it uneven at $50)

-Font Book 2 (Does Windows come with a font management app, lets you choose favorites, preview before install, user defined groupings/collections, real-time disable/enable? What's that worth $20?)

-DVD Player 4.5 (Windows media player works. Does it play from VIDEO_TS folders, bookmarking, realtime global or DVD specific color/contrast/EQ presets, 16:9 to 4:3 conversion and back? Does it ask, "resume where you last viewed this dvd" when you put the same one in again? What's that worth, $20?)

-Preview 3 (High speed PDF and image viewing app with image editing, cropping, etc. abilities. Opens PSD files and has full color profile support.)

-Xcode 2 (A full suite of software development resources including IDE, compilers, UI builders, tutorials, documentation, libraries and so on. It supports many different languages as well like C, C++, Objective C, Java, Applescript and can create projects that are combinations of those. What's that worth? Microsoft's .NET Studio is $450 at amazon.com)

-iLife ’06 (Windows comes with Movie Maker and the like to compete with iLife, but it doesn't touch the features of apps like iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if it would cost at least $150 to try to buy similarily featured apps for Windows.)

-Photo Booth (Web cams have their own software, no biggie here.)

-Comic Life (Take your photos and build comics out of them! Regular price is $24.95)

-OmniOutliner (Great structure, idea, outline creation app for organizing information. $39.95 value)

-Big Bang Board Games (A myriad of games one can play single, multiplayer internet, email turn-based etc. $25 value)

-OS X 10.4 (So many features of next year's Windows Vista already exist in OS X, it's worth mentioning as a bundled treasure. It doesn't just let you launch and organize files, it lets you mine the **** out of it so that anything you've ever saved or downloaded is at your fingertips within seconds. And with a wonderful system/user account management system, even administrators can't accidentally delete system files. Unix based, stable as a rock, and HAS ZERO VIRUSES WRITTEN FOR IT! What's that worth? AVG is free, but the downtime from virus/worm/DoS attacks is very expensive. I'll be insanely modest and just say you'd save at least $100 being utterly and completely virus free. I'll keep the price of OS X itself down in case you don't enjoy most of what it offers, perhaps from being accustomed to less: $75)

That software adds up to $1034.90. The MacBook ends up costing you $727.51 LESS than the Dell. They're both great computers, but getting up and running with a full spread of software so you can do all the things your imagination can possibly conceive, is more important I think.

Hardware specs alone don't paint a clear picture. It's what the experience of the computer is like, where its boundaries are, what it can do out of the box vs. having to purchase software/hardware on day 2 or 90 and so on that truly determine value. Most of that is subjective of course. I hope we can all be consistently happy with our tools, having not missed an opportunity to really know what we can really get out of them.

I'd like to add: the service for Apple rocks. My wife's MacBookPro battery was acting up, so we went to a web browser to schedule a Genius Bar appointment. Within 30 minutes we had driven to our local Apple Store, and had a tech looking at it. He hopped on thep hone to call Apple and get a replacement mailed because they didn't have it in stock. In less than 24 hours, the new battery arrived by courrier.

When I first got an iMac in 2000, I loved it so much I wrote Apple Canada with an anecdotal story of my out-of-box experience. They enjoyed it so much, they shared it around their offices, and sent me a t-shirt. Try that with Dell.

Apple watches my browsing habit in their stores, and calls me when I'm starting to put together packages. I get great discounts each time they do that, because they know what's in their inventory channels and are willing to drop the prices of their comptuers by several hundred dollars if what I need happens to be what they're trying to clear. They help me, and I help them.

Apple also calls me when my warranty is about to expire and gives me an opportunity to renew. I can then decide based on how the machine is behaving, what I've learned online and so on, if it's worth extending or am I intended to buy replacements.

I like this kind of friendly exchange. It serves their business, and I get well taken care of. I don't mind this kind of marketing. No IBM, Compaq, or Dell machine I've ever owned were that pleasant an experience. Getting a Dell is like a $30 mp3 player at a Walmart. It's cheap, but the experience feels it through and through. There's no community, nobody even pretends they have any clue that friendly marketing is possible, and you're nothing but a disposable consumer for a disposable product.

Making friends with sales management at Apple stores is a GOOD idea. I keep coming back for great discounts and service, and I keep buying at Apple. The cost may seem higher with Apple products but the value is so insanely rich, the cost ends up being less in the long run. Go deep, and you'll get more out of Apple than you ever dreamed possible.

[ndptal85]

So basically one sick puppy is the last person in the world to find out that Macs are more expensive then PCs most of the time?

[Tarcat]

If you are happy paying less for a computer that comes with a worse OS, less software, fewer features, more bulk, and an uglier case than go ahead and get it. You can save money on a lot of things if you make tradeoffs. A Chevy costs less than a Honda. A Sony TV costs more than a generic one. A top quality suit costs more than one at Mens Warehouse.

[TRRosen]

Dells are cheaper, not less expensive.

[fox-orian]

http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...78F7&nclm=iMac



http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...clm=MacBookPro



http://www.dell.com/content/products...=19&l=en&s=dhs
vs
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPL...D&nclm=MacBook



I rest my case there.

[freakboy2]

the no viruses part is worth about 1000$ to me.

the next time i have to re-install XP because a machine is infected, i'm going to just skip the insert disk, and insert a giant metal sledgehammer.

why would you want to do that to yourself? Don't be a moron, save yourself the aggravation and get a mac.

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by iRussel

For me buyng a computer is like buying a bed or television set.

Your computer is not an appliance or a piece of furniture.

Originally Posted by Mr. Strat

Go for it. Get that Dell. Get your wallet out for some decent anti-virus and andi-spyware software...and since you're into great deals...why not pick up an e-Machine while you're at it. They're cheaper than Macs too.

http://www.clamwin.com/ - Free
http://www.privoxy.org/ - Free

What was that about pulling out your wallet again?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Your computer is not an appliance or a piece of furniture.

You're right. It's not sitting in some corner. It's right in my face. You can be damn sure I wouldn't want a fugly Dell in my sight the whole day long when I could be looking at an iMac. Something tells me you weren't trying to make iRussel's point, but you just did.

[Robb]

I think there's another side to this argument that needs to be considered. Yes, if you add in the additional features that the MacBook Pro comes with to the Dell, the prices are compairable, perhaps even more expensive. But would the Mac buying public support the reverse... less features for a lower price tag?

[mitchell_pgh]

The real problem is... the Dell doesn't run OS X.

That's the deal-breaker for me.