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Car Talk (Page 22)
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The Final Shortcut
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Jul 22, 2020, 08:37 PM
 
I mean yeah, I think it’s OK—again, given the power train technology, you have to give up something at the same price point. Compare it directly to a similarly priced ice luxury car and you’ll definitely notice that the fit and finish is a solid step down, panel gaps aren’t as tight, there are some odd design flaws and so on. But having said that, something has to give at that EV price point—none of the other manufacturers have been willing or able to go there as of yet.
     
OreoCookie
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Jul 22, 2020, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I mean yeah, I think it’s OK—again, given the power train technology, you have to give up something at the same price point. Compare it directly to a similarly priced ice luxury car and you’ll definitely notice that the fit and finish is a solid step down, panel gaps aren’t as tight, there are some odd design flaws and so on. But having said that, something has to give at that EV price point—none of the other manufacturers have been willing or able to go there as of yet.
Agreed, and if you spend that much money on a car, your expectations should be in line with the competition.
But in my observation Tesla’s customers tend to care about other things where Tesla is ahead. Apart from the drive train, the electronics come to mind, where you get a comparatively huge touch screen. Other car manufacturers start with tiny screens and you have to pay extra for slightly larger ones. Also on the inside, Tesla has sometimes found ingenious solutions to some problems. Their cooling solutions in the Model 3 (the Superbottle) and Model Y (the so-called Octovalve) seem to be second-to-none in the industry.

PS The photos and linked videos are from Munro & Associates teardowns.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Jul 22, 2020 at 10:22 PM. )
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The Final Shortcut
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Jul 22, 2020, 11:45 PM
 
You won’t get any enthusiasm from me on huge touchscreens. I’m one of those out of date button guys. I hated going to a touchscreen for climate controls. Tactile 4 life.
     
Thorzdad
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Jul 23, 2020, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Tactile 4 life.
[set curmudgeon_mode=1]
     
MacNNFamous
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Jul 23, 2020, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
You won’t get any enthusiasm from me on huge touchscreens. I’m one of those out of date button guys. I hated going to a touchscreen for climate controls. Tactile 4 life.
My job is HMI/Touchpoints/Ergo. Have hated touch screens in cars since they were introduced. Rented a model 3 2 years ago. Blown away. The dual scrolls on the steering wheel work awesome. HVAC was stellar, set and forget. Really didn't need to touch the screen very often, and autopilot made a huge difference in my hesitation in using it while driving. Amazing cars. Ford and GM and FCA are ****ed, lmao.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 2, 2020, 10:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I mean yeah, I think it’s OK—again, given the power train technology, you have to give up something at the same price point.
In one of the latest videos Munro compares how Tesla had simplified the production process for the Model Y compared to the same part in the Model 3 (from over 170 parts to essentially just 2).
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MacNNFamous
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Aug 8, 2020, 11:13 AM
 
Here's my Headgasket/RS2 Spec upgrade on my 95 Audi S6, in timelapse style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3qcEqrfCTE

Hope you dig it, it was a lot of work. Went from 280hp to 350-380hpish. Not really sure, have not dyno'd it. I've been wanting to do an RS2 upgrade since I bought the car, and while it was out of commision for a year due to a headgasket failure (which was ultimately due to a $19 plastic thermostat cover disintegrating and I overheated the car desperately trying to get to an offramp in -10 deg weather, fun times), so I slowly collected the pieces needed to upgrade this beasty.
     
Doc HM
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Aug 14, 2020, 05:20 PM
 
Insurance paid up for the fire damage to the 104.

New toy. Will see if it can live up to the hype and supplant the 104. Not entirely sure

IMG_0133 by Andrew Stephens, on Flickr

IMG_0111 by Andrew Stephens, on Flickr

IMG_1423 by Andrew Stephens, on Flickr
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
MacNNFamous
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Aug 15, 2020, 10:55 AM
 
Peugeot GTI? Super cool. Love those alloy wheels that look like steel wheels. Super cool!!! What caused the fire? Is the car junk now?
     
Doc HM
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Aug 15, 2020, 11:17 AM
 
Yes. Fire damage is now what's called Category B write off which means the chassis can not be legally returned to the road. I salvaged the engine, wheels and tyres and the suspension and some of the panels. The rest had to be crushed in order to get the insurance payout.
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MacNNFamous
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Aug 15, 2020, 02:23 PM
 
Sucks. I mean.... couldn't it just turn into a rally car and not be driving on the road? Seems like it was close already.
     
Paco500
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Aug 15, 2020, 04:20 PM
 
Ok, it's been too long, but I'm kind of back. A lot of water under the bridge and all that.

So I'm looking for my next car. Recommendations welcome.

My current car is a BMW 430d X-Drive. I like it. I like it a lot actually. But what I don't like is that is has neither CarPlay or adaptive cruise control. Assuming the UK ever gets off lock-down and I am back to commuting on a regular basis, I really want adaptive cruise control. CarPlay would be a big bonus.

So what I like about my car.

It's fast- not super car or Tesla quick, but it has the juice to make it pleasurable,
It's got AWD. I live up a dirt/gravel track, and this is helpful. Not a deal breaker, but certainly appreciate it.
It get 60 MPG (UK, so I think around 45 MPG in US gallons?) on the motorway. That is good.
I like the layout. It's a hatchback. Prefer that to an estate (Station Wagon) or saloon (sedan). I've got two kids, so not interested in a 2/3 door.
The fit and finish- Germans make a good car- at least until the miles start adding up and it all goes to crap. It feels premium.

What I don't like.

Previously mentioned, lack of CarPlay and adaptive cruise control- especially adaptive cruise control.
Diesel. It's dirty and kills people. Like the MPG, hate what it does to kids lungs.

That's pretty much it. Like everything else.

So I would be looking to replace it with a low-mileage used car- £20k range.

Recommendations?

EDIT: If it wasn't obvious from the description, my current car is the Gran Coupe version of the 4 series.
( Last edited by Paco500; Aug 15, 2020 at 04:36 PM. )
     
turtle777
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Aug 16, 2020, 11:47 AM
 
Unless you go EV, you won’t be able to beat the MPG much.
The last generation of BMW diesels had great mileage, but were a little too slow for my taste.

I used to have a 2010 335d, which was quick(er), but got “only” about 38-40mpg on highway.
It was a great car if it hadn’t been for maintenance - that damn EGR/ SCR system was way to complex. And the shitty quality diesel fuel in the Midwest didn’t help.

Car play and driver assistance features were an additional reasons for me to let the BMW go.
I ended up with an Audi A5.

-t
     
MacNNFamous
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Aug 16, 2020, 07:20 PM
 
Get a model 3. Seriously. If I needed a new car I would not even consider anything else, they are so far ahead of the game. Rented one a few years ago through turo and whipped around malibu with it for a few days. Blew me away.
     
mindwaves
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Aug 17, 2020, 04:43 AM
 
I bought a bicycle pump for my car (model 3). Very useful and no need to visit the gas station anymore.

edit: I mean go to the gas station to fill up my car tires with air.
( Last edited by mindwaves; Aug 17, 2020 at 09:00 PM. )
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Paco500
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Aug 17, 2020, 08:09 AM
 
Don't disagree with the Tesla in concept, but A: likely out of my price range, and B: We rent, so can't really install a charger at home. The final thing is perhaps I would need to drive it to get charmed by it, but I'm not a fan of the styling, especially the Model 3, and the Model Ss that I've been have left a lot to be desired in quality/fit/finish.

BUT, I could probably get past all that if I could afford it and had a place to charge it.

As for the Audi, I do like them, but every time I go back to VW, they screw me with reliability. The first car I ever owned was a 72 Super Beetle, that died before my 16th birthday so I never really got to drive it. Since then I've owned an 85 GTI, 92 Jetta, 2003 All-Road and a 2005 GTI. All of them, with the exception of the Jetta I flogged off to CarMax, ended up at the scrap yard- and only one of them because of an accident. But I am a glutton for punishment, so maybe I will give the A5 a look.
     
Laminar
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Aug 17, 2020, 09:34 AM
 
A5 Sportback looks like it would push a lot of your buttons - hatch, AWD, quickish with the 2.0. Apple says 2017-up were available with CarPlay, it was available with adaptive cruise. Looks like 2017-2018 models are starting around £20k near you.
     
MacNNFamous
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Aug 17, 2020, 02:53 PM
 
Do yourself a favor and at least TEST DRIVE a model 3. Seriously. You can bitch about panel gap and how soft the dash is as much as you want, but once you test drive one, everything else for sale seems positively archaic. It is the future NOW, and you will have over the air updates and an incredible resale value for a long time. I would not even CONSIDER anything else. Even with renting. Find a different apartment with an outlet nearby. The car is seriously a game changer; I've sold 3 of them now just by convincing people to at least drive one before they buy this other car they were all hard about. Anyone who's actually followed through and driven a model 3 has bought one.
     
Laminar
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Aug 17, 2020, 02:58 PM
 
Yes Paco, double your budget and then also buy a house because someone on the internet likes a car.
     
MacNNFamous
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Aug 18, 2020, 02:44 AM
 
Yeah I take it back you should buy a ****ing contour.
     
Paco500
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Aug 18, 2020, 08:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Do yourself a favor and at least TEST DRIVE a model 3. Seriously.
I hear you, and I don't doubt what you are saying, but it's not just a matter of finding a different apartment. While a car is important to me, it's not as important as where I live, and I love the house we live in. It's good for my kids school, and I don't want to leave the area. Once my youngest is off to university in a few years- we'll buy something in less expensive area.

Add to that, the least expensive 3 series on AutoTrader right now is over £35k. That's 1.5x my budget for the cheapest one.

It's a nice idea, but it's not happening.
     
MacNNFamous
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Aug 18, 2020, 10:50 AM
 
In that case I would spend as little as possible. Getting something fancy like an ICE, the resale value is going to drop like a rock, especially as prices on model 3s start to slip downwards.
     
Paco500
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Aug 18, 2020, 01:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
In that case I would spend as little as possible. Getting something fancy like an ICE, the resale value is going to drop like a rock, especially as prices on model 3s start to slip downwards.
That is food for thought.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 18, 2020, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
In that case I would spend as little as possible. Getting something fancy like an ICE, the resale value is going to drop like a rock, especially as prices on model 3s start to slip downwards.
I think this is an excellent point. Many countries are forbidding the sales of new ICE cars, some as “early” as 2030. Restrictions on ICE cars are mounting inside cities, and the Covid-19 pandemic gives plenty of cities a taste of how good life is if you have fewer — or in parts no — cars in them. You are exactly right that this will put depreciation on steroids. While you may say “this is 10 years from now”, given the life span of a car, 10 years is akin to them being in the 30s or 40s. It’s the reason why I would not consider buying a new car, and even among used cars I wouldn’t want to spend much.
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reader50
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Aug 18, 2020, 10:11 PM
 
Norway is banning new gas or diesel cars in 2025. British Columbia in Canada also. Wikipedia list

Assorted cities or regions are banning just diesel vehicles 2021-2025.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 18, 2020, 10:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Norway is banning new gas or diesel cars in 2025. British Columbia in Canada also. Wikipedia list

Assorted cities or regions are banning just diesel vehicles 2021-2025.
Yeah, good points. A lot of cities are banning many diesel cars even now or in the near future. In Germany they had to start banning cars with diesel engines, because many cities exceeded thresholds mandated by various EU regulations.
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 18, 2020, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Do yourself a favor and at least TEST DRIVE a model 3. Seriously. You can bitch about panel gap and how soft the dash is as much as you want, but once you test drive one, everything else for sale seems positively archaic. It is the future NOW, and you will have over the air updates and an incredible resale value for a long time. I would not even CONSIDER anything else. Even with renting. Find a different apartment with an outlet nearby. The car is seriously a game changer; I've sold 3 of them now just by convincing people to at least drive one before they buy this other car they were all hard about. Anyone who's actually followed through and driven a model 3 has bought one.
Lol move your house so that you can own a different car?

You need your priorities rearranged.
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Brien
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Aug 19, 2020, 10:02 AM
 
I wonder what happens to classic car owners... Forced electric conversion? Museum/display only?
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 19, 2020, 12:04 PM
 
Just let the infrastructure to fuel them die out.
     
turtle777
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Aug 19, 2020, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Just let the infrastructure to fuel them die out.
Not gonna happen in our lifetime.

Nobody promoting EVs has yet come up with a solution to scale EVs production to a point of replacing ALL dino-juice cars. The problem is batteries. There just aren’t enough base metals available to build that many.
We need different / better storage technology.

-t
     
MacNNFamous
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Aug 20, 2020, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Lol move your house so that you can own a different car?
He doesn't own a house. He said apartment. So yeah, get a different one.

Or, like do the smart thing and slum it in a $5000 honda shitbox and save up to actually purchase property.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 20, 2020, 09:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Nobody promoting EVs has yet come up with a solution to scale EVs production to a point of replacing ALL dino-juice cars. The problem is batteries. There just aren’t enough base metals available to build that many.
Sure, people have come up with it — ICE cars aren't replaced with EV cars for many, but just no cars. Electric bike sales are through the roof in recent years, and the pandemic has motived quite a few cities around the world to accelerate plans and either ban cars from parts of cities or reduce the space allotted to them. And they made cities more attractive to cyclists.

Of course, there are cases where people will still need to own cars. But if you combine the trend of urbanization with us being able to experience global climate change first-hand, it's quite clear that cars will become less and less necessary to more and more people as they find out how well you can live without them. Not to speak of the mental and physical health benefits.
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turtle777
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Aug 21, 2020, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Of course, there are cases where people will still need to own cars. But if you combine the trend of urbanization with us being able to experience global climate change first-hand, it's quite clear that cars will become less and less necessary to more and more people as they find out how well you can live without them. Not to speak of the mental and physical health benefits.
That might work in Europe, but not in the US.

Big cities are becoming lawless shitholes. Add to that Covid. People are moving out in droves.
Scaling EVs to that new reality is not a solution due to resource constraints (batteries).

-t
     
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Aug 21, 2020, 10:02 PM
 
Yeah population density of the USA means cars are going to be a thing for a LONNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time.
     
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Aug 22, 2020, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
That might work in Europe, but not in the US.
Look, I have lived in North American cities (= USA and Canada) and I did commute by bike. (I also lived in the PA countryside.) So yeah sure, it already does work. North American urban centers aren't special snowflakes. Bikes were already hugely popular in the Bay Area and Toronto when I lived there, both had networks of bike paths already. And I imagine they have only improved since then. If you live in a city, cars are expensive head aches. You are in constant search of parking spots, you fight with congestion and for many distances you are slower.

With electrically assisted bikes, cities with steep, hilly areas also become accessible (the hills in Nagasaki or Berkeley come to mind) to the general cycling public.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Yeah population density of the USA means cars are going to be a thing for a LONNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time.
Nobody said cars will go completely extinct, but rather that the market for cars will shrink significantly due to much lower demand in urban centers especially. More and more people will live in urban centers, so for more and more people other modes of transportation apart from cars will be an option. Just like women working became normal because people couldn't live on a single income any longer (and not because of someone pushed their progressive views on the role of women in society), cars are something less and less urban dwellers aspire to have. It's not that they are anti-car, but cars aren't very important to them. Bike traffic in cities across the world is steadily increasing and once the infrastructure has caught up, cars will become more and more the exception than the rule. For the price of a beaten up, old used car (say, $5k) you can get a really, really nice new bicycle.

Of course, if you live in the countryside, it is harder to replace cars. (Although I could have survived with a bike in rural PA, at least as a high school student.) But IMHO also here a lot can happen. If teleworking becomes more normal, I reckon many households will switch from having two cars to having just one.
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turtle777
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Aug 22, 2020, 01:25 AM
 
Oreo, you don’t get it.

People don’t want to live in areas that are easily accessible by bike. It’s too close to rioting and looting idiots.

-t
     
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Aug 22, 2020, 04:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Oreo, you don’t get it.

People don’t want to live in areas that are easily accessible by bike. It’s too close to rioting and looting idiots.
No, I don't think it is a matter of me not getting it, I just think our personal experiences differ. In my experience, people tend to like living in cities and the urban areas surrounding cities. They usually only move farther out if they can't afford living space (or they want something bigger for the same money).

PS Before you ask, I've also had first-hand experience with large-scale demonstrations that escalated during the evening hours — I was in Santiago de Chile last fall when the “fare increase” protests started. My AirBnB was about 500 meters from the epicenter of the protests. On the news all you saw was pictures or clips of looted stores and violence on both ends. The peaceful protestors got much less or in many cases no play in the international press.
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Aug 24, 2020, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Look, I have lived in North American cities (= USA and Canada) and I did commute by bike. (I also lived in the PA countryside.)
North America is a very big place. In areas that were built-up during the 19th century, sure it does work. In newer developments that were designed for cars, it is going to be very different. That is something that Europe doesn't have, because most of the big population centers have been populated since the days of the Roman Empire at least. Yes, Scandinavia is an exception here, but we're tiny compared to most of Europe.

Population density is an irrelevant measurement, by the way. Sweden has very low population density, but we still have lots of commuting by bike and public transport, because a significant chunk of the population lives in areas where that is plausible. That there are large areas that are mostly forest within the same national borders doesn't really matter.
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Aug 24, 2020, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
North America is a very big place. In areas that were built-up during the 19th century, sure it does work. In newer developments that were designed for cars, it is going to be very different.
What do you mean? Are you talking about lanes being wider in the US?
Originally Posted by P View Post
Population density is an irrelevant measurement, by the way. Sweden has very low population density, but we still have lots of commuting by bike and public transport, because a significant chunk of the population lives in areas where that is plausible. That there are large areas that are mostly forest within the same national borders doesn't really matter.
I used population density as a proxy. What I meant is that there are places where you have to drive 30+ minutes to the grocery store, and you need a car.
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Aug 24, 2020, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Oreo, you don’t get it.

People don’t want to live in areas that are easily accessible by bike. It’s too close to rioting and looting idiots.

-t
The data just doesn't support this notion. Not even a little bit.

The Fastest-Growing U.S. Cities Aren’t What You Think | Bloomberg

OAW
     
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Aug 24, 2020, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What do you mean? Are you talking about lanes being wider in the US?
I’m talking mainly about the distance you need to travel to do basic tasks. If you have large areas of single-home houses, a car is necessary to do anything. If you have cities with a mix of homes, offices, stores etc, and denser homes, you can get away with bikes, public transport, or walking. Cities (or for that matter areas of cities) that were built up after “everyone” had a car are often built according to the first example, and those are more common in southern or western US than in Europe (or the northeastern US)
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 24, 2020, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I’m talking mainly about the distance you need to travel to do basic tasks. If you have large areas of single-home houses, a car is necessary to do anything.
I don’t think this excludes the possibility of doing things by bike, it just means you will need more time to change the infrastructure, e. g. to go from fewer, humongous supermarkets to smaller supermarkets, which are closer to you. Ditto for malls vs. main streets. If these neighborhoods do not adapt, they could just become less attractive to many.

That somehow reminds me of the public transportation crime the city of Toronto committed when it built the new international airport. There is literally a train line running right towards the airport just to suddenly veer northwards just before reaching it. Speaking to locals, they claim that there was pressure by the companies that do the car parking there to not extend the train line. Now you have to take a shuttle bus if you don’t have a car (many Torontonians don’t).
Originally Posted by P View Post
If you have cities with a mix of homes, offices, stores etc, and denser homes, you can get away with bikes, public transport, or walking. Cities (or for that matter areas of cities) that were built up after “everyone” had a car are often built according to the first example, and those are more common in southern or western US than in Europe (or the northeastern US)
Cities and urban areas that have been developed with a car-first mindset of course come with liabilities, but they will morph and adapt just like European cities have. That will of course take time and planning, but I don’t think it is impossible. The “revolution” will come from the bottom, it’ll just be the growing shares of bikes that eventually creates enough pressure (and in some places problems). In most places politicians are extremely reluctant to take space away from cars. In Toronto this was a regular conflict between people living inside Toronto proper who were very bike friendly and those commuting from outside the city center by car. Since you can’t make the streets any wider (well, not without tearing down all sorts of buildings), you have to “take space away” from cars. I add quotation marks, because in some instances dedicating a lane to bicycles can actually clear up congestion for cars, too (bikes take up much less space than cars, so you can increase the net flow of people).

In many cities around the world (Paris and New York seems to be a prime example) the pandemic has accelerated the change towards being more bike-friendly. But we could also think of another crisis on the financial auto market, as a result of which owning a car became unfeasible for many.
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MacNNFamous
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Aug 24, 2020, 07:41 PM
 
So you must have never heard of WINTER before, because **** riding a bicycle in that.
     
Brien
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Aug 25, 2020, 02:19 AM
 
I don’t see the US banning cars, ever.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 25, 2020, 03:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
So you must have never heard of WINTER before, because **** riding a bicycle in that.
Perhaps you missed that I was living in Toronto … 

Sure you can commute by bike in the winter if have suitable infrastructure. If you have plenty of snow and good (perhaps studded) tires, it's not that bad. The biggest danger is ice, especially black ice or ice that accumulates on bridges or in underpasses. (That's one reason I cannot venture inlands by bike, most of the time it is fine, but you have patches of black ice at higher elevation.)

In extreme cases I have to lift … 



and push … 



… or I stick to the coastline. I usually opt for the latter.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Aug 25, 2020 at 03:12 AM. )
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andi*pandi
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Aug 25, 2020, 10:00 AM
 
^wow!

I have a coworker who bikes to work in most weather. She has different bikes with different tires for the seasons.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Aug 25, 2020, 11:04 AM
 
I mean, I’m an avid/rabid mountain biker who has a nice used car’s worth of bikes in the garage, hits the trails five days a week and has mountain biked on four continents. But let’s not pretend that people who are prepared to bike during a North American winter aren’t a vanishingly small subset of humanity.

I’m not included, by the way...lock the bike in the garage!!!.
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turtle777
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Aug 25, 2020, 01:31 PM
 
You guys are missing the obvious: in most places in the US, it's not safe to ride bikes.
Car drivers in the US are for the most part reckless, and unskilled in ensuring a safe co-existance of bikes and cars on the road.

I would not ride my bike on public streets in the US as a daily commute.

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subego  (op)
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Aug 25, 2020, 01:36 PM
 
Here, the biggest danger seems to be getting doored.

(This is what I hear people report. I don’t have a bike)
     
Laminar
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Aug 25, 2020, 02:53 PM
 
Our local municipalities have spent millions on really really good bike trails - some in the middle of nowhere between small towns and some road-adjacent. So it's pretty frustrating when a Lance Armstrong-wannabe is struggling up a hill ON THE ROAD at 14mph all of six feet away from a dedicated bike path.
     
 
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