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Demonhood · Jan 25, 2003, 07:03 PM

no, this thread isn't about shaking booty. sadly.

anyhow, i'll probably be taking a class on Shake over the next few months (till May). wondered if anyone has used it yet. or if people would like my impressions on the product. or questions, etc..

the first class was today. we're using dual G4s with 1GB of ram. the prof has worked on scooby doo, the core, what dreams may come, etc... i figure the class is so inexpensive, i get to use fast macs, and learn an expensive piece of software, i should probably stick with it. oh, and it seems like a perfect compliment to FCP

snotnose · Jan 25, 2003, 08:10 PM

lucky you... i wish i was learning shake in a classroom.

i would love to see screenshots and anything else you have to say about it. it is hard to find much good stuff on the net about shake.

bring it on!

real · Jan 26, 2003, 04:57 PM

Shake is hands down the best compositor out there. Good luck with the classes, Where are you taking them. Check out Highend2d.com for more shake info.

macmicke · Jan 27, 2003, 12:18 PM

All information would be great. As I see it this program is one of the most unknown of Apples software suite.

/MacMicke

real · Jan 27, 2003, 04:03 PM

For more info on shake go to highend2d.com, fxguide.com, and the apple site(which is pretty limited info) Good luck!

snotnose · Jan 28, 2003, 05:49 PM

more more more!

Demonhood · Jan 28, 2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by snotnose:
more more more!

my class isn't until saturday. so everyone is gonna have to wait wait wait

even i'm anxious to get going.

real · Jan 28, 2003, 07:31 PM

Where are you talking the class

snotnose · Jan 29, 2003, 02:17 AM

cool i will be waiting

Demonhood · Feb 1, 2003, 09:52 PM

(click for fullsize)

got to do some basic stuff today in class. watched some clips from Pearl Harbor and we discussed the compisiting going on from scene to scene.
talked about different types of media that you can import into shake: photographs, original digital images, video, image sequences, movie picture import, etc..
talked about z-depth masks (something that 3d people might be familiar with), film resolution vs dv, 8bit vs 16bit vs floating point, and a few odds n ends.

did a little matte work with some stock images before the end of class. next week i'll render a movie sequence to show you guys what Shake can do. well, once i learn how to make keyframes

real · Feb 1, 2003, 10:09 PM

Can you tell me where you are taking the class

Demonhood · 02:02 PM

Originally posted by real:
Can you tell me where you are taking the class

oh, sure. sorry.
cost me $50 to register. and another $50 for the book i haven't bought yet. still, a pretty good deal.

real · Feb 2, 2003, 12:56 AM

Thanks have a good one

Demonhood · Feb 8, 2003, 07:00 PM

class today mostly covered color correction. i'll have some screenshots and movies (we learned how to do keyframes today) on monday. as well as additional information, of course.

so no one has any questions eh?

real · Feb 8, 2003, 08:43 PM

Hey Demon thanks for the info, Are you a compositor or just learning shake for the hell of it. Have you worked with AE or combustion, If you have Do you like shake or AE. Just wondering.

Just so you know your getting a deal on your class down here in LA you can pay $1500 for a class your very lucky. If you would like to learn more about shake there is a usere-mail list, that is very good you can go to highend2d.com to be added to the list. just so you know. have a good one thanks for the update. You sound excited thats good.
real

tomra · Feb 9, 2003, 11:21 AM

Demonhood, i�m also interested in the same questions "real" asked in the above post and also how do you find the "entry level" learning curve of Shake compared to an application like AE? Is it understandable from a newbie�s point of view given that you have some rudimentary knowledge of how composite software works in general? Have your instructors outlined anything about Shakes advantages over AE/commotion/combustion?

Demonhood · Feb 10, 2003, 02:18 PM

1) Are you a compositor or just learning shake for the hell of it.

Neither

. Well, more the latter than the former. I'm not a compositor by trade, but I am interested in editing/compositing and all things film/video related. I have a film degree that I haven't used in awhile, so I figured this would be a good way to get me motivated.

2) Have you worked with AE or combustion, If you have Do you like shake or AE?

I used AE for a bit a long time ago (1997-1999). I was using Premiere at the time, so it was pretty easy to pick up. I didn't use it for anything very advanced (some titling, very basic compositing, etc..) so I never became an "AE user" perse. I'm impressed with the power/potentional of Shake, so I have no doubt I'll prefer it to AE. BTW, I used Premiere as my primary video editing program until FCP came out, at which time I switched. But I'm a slacker and haven't even bought a copy of version 3 yet so that I could use it (I don't boot into 9 anymore).

3) How do you find the "entry level" learning curve of Shake compared to an application like AE? Is it understandable from a newbie�s point of view given that you have some rudimentary knowledge of how composite software works in general?

Shake is a bit of an odd bird of a program. AE was similar to Premiere and Photoshop, so it was easy to pick up. Shake, however, isn't like any other apple product (appropriately so since they just bought it less than a year ago). The interface takes some getting used to. Certain parts are unique and refreshing (the node viewer, for example. see the upper right corner of my screenshots), while others simple boggle my mind (the method for making keyframes, for example). If you have some basic knowledge of compositing software, you should be able to handle shake. All you need is for someone to give you an in-depth guided tour of the interface. A lot of people in my class don't understand the underlying concepts, so at least I have an advantage over them

.

4) Have your instructors outlined anything about Shakes advantages over AE/commotion/combustion?

He spoke briefly about AE and combustion. He doesn't use AE, but expressed how he believed it was more for tv broadcast, less for film. He said that each program had a few things that the others didn't. And that it was very common for professional compositors to use all of them, each for a specific task. He did say, however, that he did most of his work in shake and preferred it over the others. His primarily uses Maya and Shake for his work.

--
One thing that I'm sure has helped me in this class so far is my background in Photoshop. A lot of the concepts (channels, masks/mattes, etc..) are crossovers. The hard part is just learning how to manipulate these things within the program.

Let me know if anyone has any more questions.

Here (200K) is another screnshot.

and Here (3.7MB) is a very short movie clip. I made this about 20 seconds after discovering how to do keyframes in Shake. Next week I'll be sure to provide something more exciting than a bird on acid.

DeathMan · Feb 11, 2003, 03:51 AM

That's really cool stuff. Film is awesome, and I'd really like to get into it. So far its too expensive, so I stick with hacker-geek type of stuff, and do a little graphic design too.

Film is my wife's forte. She video's weddings, and edits them in FCP. I took a FCP class and really liked it. I'd like to get a handle on Shake sometime. Maybe someday.

I watched the extras on "The Others" DVD, and they showed some of the compositing with fog ,and bluescreen etc. Looked very interesting. Are you guys going to be working on any features or short films maybe in conjunction with the film department there? That would be cool.

What are the most exciting things about the software? Its supposed to be scriptable, right? Is that difficult? You're supposed to be able to script Final Cut, but I couldn't think of any reason to do it.

ramble ramble

tomra · Feb 11, 2003, 08:11 PM

Thanks for the screenshots Demonhood!
The tabbed interface looks really clean and effecient. As you say, not very mac_ish but it�s very nice.

real · Feb 11, 2003, 08:26 PM

the shake interface is the cleaniest in the world. shake uses the the CPU in the most effective way, memory managment is awsome. Shake in everyway is the best compositor ever. Demonhood you will learn a ton from useing shake.

Demonhood · Feb 12, 2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by DeathMan:
Are you guys going to be working on any features or short films maybe in conjunction with the film department there? That would be cool.

the instructor said we were free to bring in projects we were working on and if it fit into the lesson we could use that material. i'm also starting to work on a few projects (some 'just for fun' music videos and a documentary) so i'll be sure to bring clips in to use in class.

What are the most exciting things about the software? Its supposed to be scriptable, right? Is that difficult? You're supposed to be able to script Final Cut, but I couldn't think of any reason to do it.

most exciting...hmmm. i think that'd have to be just how powerful it seems. from advanced keying (considering doing some greenscreen work on my upcoming projects) to z-depth blurring, to special effects (he showed us a clip of oozing blood he created for Ghosts of Mars).
the files you save out of Shake are actually called scripts. they're just text files. apparently Shake started as a CLI program on *NIX and Nothing Real eventually put a GUI on it so that us normal people could use it. i'm sure you can automate quite a bit in Shake, but i haven't progressed far enough to know quite yet.

Demonhood · Feb 15, 2003, 09:57 PM

layer filters and transformations was on the plate today. we actually got more into how to control keyframes and how it's quite a bit different than AE.

screenshot of a fireworks project i was doing to pass the time in class. i took some stock footage of fireworks going off (something i found on the hd) and applied a simple DilateErode filter. fun effect. which can be seen here (4.6MB)

the instructor gave us an assignment to flip a picture around a box smoothly. well, besides the fact that keyframes don't necessarily work the way you'd think they would, and that you need to set alphachannels for things because they're transparent by default, it turned out ok (4.5MB).

the amount of control you have in this program is pretty incredible. i'm glad this is a long class. i can't imagine trying to learn all this in a couple days.

real · Feb 16, 2003, 04:13 AM

Everything in shake is scriptable everything, That doesnt mean you would want to do it in that manner but you can. I is done lot is converting tons of images or color corrections to 1000's of images, will be done in the shell.

Demonhood · Feb 24, 2003, 08:37 PM

covered mattes this weeekend (masking, alpha channels, whatever you want to call it). sadly, there isn't really a cool screenshot of that for me to show you. so, instead, i improved upon the exercise that he had us do last week. this is what the node view of it looks like:

and this is what the result is:

2.3MB Bull Movie

next week we go over keying. and i already have a nice explosion mov that i'm eyeing to use with some existing footage i have.

vanwyklr · Feb 27, 2003, 02:08 PM

I have been using shake for awhile now .... I used to use after effects daily and replaced it with shake. I have also used commotion and combustion. I agree shake is the best ... mostly for speed... the interface will take awhile ... especially if you don't know maya or a similar node based program. I would have to disagree I think keyframing is rather easy in shake .... I also notice what they give you to work on in class seems to be the material from brinkman's books the art and science of digital compositing (he was one of the guys who made shake) if anyone is interested in shake i highly recomend that book. I'd say read that book and use shake if you don't mind getting out of the interface and into mathematical equations and scripts ... if your not into that stick with AE or combustion.

Demonhood · Mar 3, 2003, 03:16 PM

we are using brinkmann's book in class. it seems pretty good so far, although we're only a few chapters in. once we get a bit deeper into it i feel i'll be gaining more from it (i already know about bit depths, filters and mattes although the math behind it is interesting to learn).

this weekend we learned more about mattes. we'll get to keying next week it seems. we actually have a real assignment as well. we have to make a traveling matte for some footage we've been provided. since the footage (a series of .cin files actually) is from a real film (with an actor against a greenscreen) i'm not sure i can post it here for you to see. it's only a few seconds long, but still. i'll have to ponder it a little more.

real · Mar 3, 2003, 10:18 PM

Brinkmans book is great there is another one that is good to I dont remember the tittle but if you search Amazon for compositing you'l find it. Brinkman helped write Shake just if you dont know.

Demonhood · Mar 8, 2003, 06:09 PM

i finished the assignment from last week today in class. it involved rotoscoping out a character climbing onto an object. i'm not sure i can show you the real footage, so i'll show you the matte that was made from my efforts.

256KB mov

the aspect ratio is wrong, but you should still get the idea. rotoscoping involves drawing an outline around the figures you wish to isolate. the actor in this sequence was against a greenscreen, but we didn't go over chromakeying until today. so we basically learned that rotoscoping isn't the best method for something that is already greenscreened, but it certainly is a useful tool to learn. besides, i love looking at these moving cutouts

.

*and yes, i know the rotoscoping isn't perfect in this one (you can see separation in the wrist from the arm since i do each body part separately), but getting it perfect wasn't the object of the assignment. getting practice was.

real · Mar 9, 2003, 12:18 AM

Ahh!

The weekly update It so nice its like a weekly tv show or something. Thanks again Demonhood.This is fun. Just wondering if you have checked out the books and the website highend2d.com thanks agood rest of your weekend.

real · Mar 9, 2003, 12:20 AM

Isn't Roto fun!!!!

vanwyklr · Mar 9, 2003, 01:36 PM

I second that this is like a great weekly show ... and i'm always left wondering what you will learn next ... maybe you should end with next week in "shake shake shake" ....

anyway I believe the other book that was mentioned is

Digital Compositing for Film and Video by Steve Wright

good luck.

-Andrew-

real · Mar 9, 2003, 02:24 PM

Van a great book as well he has a new one coming soon hopefully in may of this year check out amazon.com have a good one everyone.

Demonhood · Mar 10, 2003, 01:09 PM

btw - this week's assignments involve chromakeying the same scene that i rotoscoped (complete with spill supression and all that good stuff) and lumakeying a still image.
i'll post those as soon as i'm finishe with them. and probably a whole new scene that i want to lumakey on the side. it'll be fairly absurd, but it's combining stock footage and something i took awhile back, so i'll actually be able to post it without feeling guilty.

Demonhood · Mar 17, 2003, 11:47 PM

this past weekend was basically hammering the idea behind chromakeying and lumakeying into our heads. we went over difference keying a bit, but chromakeying seemed to vex quite a few people (not me on this occasion).

i don't seem to be able to open my .shk files at the moment, but when i figure it out i'll post some examples of what i did. the chromakey turned out really well. the green screen wasn't all that evenly lit but a couple garbage mattes took care of that.
and the lumakey was bit crunchy, but there's always room for improvement. i'll be working on my own lumakeying project this coming weekend, so i'll finally be able to post a whole project thru the stages for you people to see.

real · Mar 25, 2003, 05:32 PM

Demon where you at man class updates!
REAL

Demonhood · Mar 25, 2003, 06:15 PM

sorry bout that.
well, last week we had a midterm and basically recapped a lot of the lessons from the weeks prior. we have a total of 4 assignments to turn in in 2.5 weeks (no class due to spring break) and i've already finished two of them (the chromakey and lumakey). the other two are a difference matte and, using the same footage we used for the chromakey, use Primatte for the greenscreening. i've played around with it a little and it's pretty frickin cool. the idea of foreground/background is easy to pick up. quite intuitive.

i really want to show some example movies/shots from the footage we're using. so i may post a 'stages of chromakey' example later tonight. i think that'd help people that don't use shake get a better understanding of what i'm learning.

real · Mar 25, 2003, 06:35 PM

thanks man it good to see you so excited about shake, I have been useing shake for awhile now and love it. Thanks for the update, If you ever need help please feel free to contact me.
REAL

Demonhood · Apr 7, 2003, 02:06 AM

Update!

(click for full image to follow along)

this is footage from a fairly recent film (don't say the name, don't want it showing up on a google search).
i'll go by these one by one:

1) the source image. a cinecine file (35mm scanned into the computer).
2) image converted from logarithmic color space. color space is a strange topic, so let's just say that film and computer screens use different color spaces so they don't look the same without some adjustments.
3) the alpha of the image on the chromakey i use on it. still a bit crispy, but i've manage to get rid of most of the green areas while mainting the actor.
4) a color filter is applied to get rid of green in all instances where green is brighter than the average of blue and red. gets rid of green tint that everything has since objects reflect light from the greenscreen.
5) garbage mattes are used to matte easy things like that t-stand and blue ladder/whatever.
6) a blur is applied to the matte to smooth it out a bit. the garbage mattes are added to the chromakey matte and we're left with a very nice looking cutout.
7) i put a random image i have behind the scene to show the finished product.

if this was a real project, i'd color correct it to fit the backdrop, maybe put some camera shake (he's supposed to be getting onto a train), and other stuff. but it's not...so i won't.

and the node viewer shows this:

lots of stuff i tried and didn't use, and some stuff i'm saving for later.
let me know if you have any questions/comments about this stuff. next class this coming weekend.

Demonhood · Apr 21, 2003, 11:52 AM

covered tracking and image stabilization this past week.
shake comes with two tutorials built-in regarding this. one is about stabilizing a shaky shot of a hotel and putting an 'Eat at Joes' sign on top of it. the other is replacing an ad on a moving bus with another image. pretty neat stuff.

i'll post more about it if anyone is interested.

Gene Jockey · Apr 21, 2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Demonhood:
i'll post more about it if anyone is interested.

Heck yeah. This thread is quite fun to read. I need to troll through this forum more often. Thanks DH!

--Josh

Demonhood · Apr 27, 2003, 02:03 PM

tracking:

before

after

far from perfect, but you get the idea. i need to do more color correction, and to re-add a reflection near the end of the clip (i've done this in a later movie that i haven't uploaded yet) and some more stuff.

i'm going to buy some green screen this week and experiment with that. i'll let ya know how it goes.

Liquidity X · Apr 27, 2003, 06:17 PM

what book r u using?

Demonhood · Apr 27, 2003, 09:11 PM

The Art and Science of Digital Compositing by Ron Brinkmann

i don't think there are any dedicated Shake books out there, but this one is supposed to be the best general compositing book around.

real · Apr 28, 2003, 12:15 AM

there is also "Digital Compositing for film and video" by Steve Wright.. just a heads up an otgher good book.
HAve a good one guys,

Demonhood · May 19, 2003, 12:26 PM

well, the class is over. here's the report:

got about 2/3 of the way thru the Brinkmann book.
covered most of the basics (far as i can tell).
i'd feel comfortable taking on most basic to intermediate compositing tasks.
i think my grade is an A
starting up projects that will take advantage of my new skills (greenscreening, for instance).
wish the class met more often or could have been longer. maybe even a semester long project.

i've got the source material for an fx shot that the instructor did awhile back. i'm going to try to recreate it as best i can. it involves decapitation, so playing it back over and over again is pretty amusing.

coolmacdude · May 23, 2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Demonhood:
it involves decapitation, so playing it back over and over again is pretty amusing.

LOL!