[Uncle Skeleton]

Hey guys, I've been wondering. Is polydactyly an overall force for good in the world? I submit that it is not. AMIRITE?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Did the Pope send us to Iraq? Unless you are claiming that the Pope led us into Iraq or Afghanistan, you just lampooned your own argument.

Just FYI, Protestants are the "default" Christians in the USA, and they don't obey the Pope. It was actually something of an issue in 1960 when Kennedy became the country's only non-protestant president, before or since.

Well I didn't realize the Pope was the leader, I thought God was. Either way The Just War Theory of the Catholic Church makes the responsibility of the decision to go to war a prudential judgment that basically means the civil authorities bear the responsibility of making sure the war is just before they fight it.

During the early part of the Iraq War in 2003, the covers of the briefings included photos of soldiers praying or in action in Iraq. These photos were accompanied by Bible verses.

For example, one cover sheet showed a photo of a large Baghdad monument of two crossed swords, with a tank beneath it. The quote above the image, from Isaiah 26:2, is: “Open the gates that the righteous nation may enter, the nation that keeps faith.”

Another slide depicts the cover of an April 2003 briefing. It shows images of soldiers fighting with the quote from Joshua 1:9: “Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”

Holy War In Iraq?: Rumsfeld Intelligence Briefings Quoted Scripture � The Wall of Separation

A US religious blog also called it a Holly War
Was Iraq a Holy War? - Aaron Taylor - God's Politics Blog

And G.W. Bush used the term Crusade to describe the Iraq War.

So yes Crusades to have a bearing on modern day as history repeats itself.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

What came first, the Church or the Religion

In technical terms, I suppose that Jesus was born first, but his followers were there from the beginning of his ministry. So I don't know. It's pretty clear that I'm just beating my head against a brick wall by explaining this to you.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

In technical terms, I suppose that Jesus was born first, but his followers were there from the beginning of his ministry. So I don't know. It's pretty clear that I'm just beating my head against a brick wall by explaining this to you.

Religion pre-dates Jesus, go back another 2000 years ...

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Religion pre-dates Jesus, go back another 2000 years ...

You phrased your question poorly. I had to think about it a second myself. You said "the Religion", which implied you were referring to Christianity specifically, in the context of the thread, not religions in general. I haven't agreed with a single thing Mitch has said in this thread, but I got his back on that point.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane 

I think there are a great many topics on which religion is wrong. I don't think that makes religion necessarily bad, i just think it's disingenuous to blame everything on religion. There many stances supported by a great many groups that I don't think make sense. That doesn't mean I think they are a threat to peace and prosperity. And is it wrong? If you practice abstinence, are you going to get HIV from a sexual encounter? Not so much. They said contraception is against the teaching of the church. If you don't want to catch a deadly disease, here is this other rule over here that will help you accomplish that goal- keep it in your pants. Do I think I'm going to hell because I bang a ridiculous number of chicks, all while wearing a condom? No, because I'm an atheist, and I don't care if anyone thinks I'm going to the land of make believe when I die just because I'm a sexual deviant. Not my problem (for the record, I don't disparage anyone's faith, unless they come ringing my door bell. Believe what you want, I don't care, just leave me alone, and that goes for other atheists as well).

If religious people and powers minded there own business, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it either. Sadly they don't. They interfere in Schools, Medicine, Research, Science. They interfere in Politics and commerce. AND they knock on doors in the early mornings on Sundays which really ticks me off.

From the point of view of someone that has worked in mental health for a long time, I can tell you that there is a lot of suffering shrinks help alleviate. Despite what Tom Cruise has to say, psychiatry provides some bit of respite for people that go thought things that neither you or I could ever imagine. But that's neither her nor there. So, no, no pope of psychiatry calling the shots on a cover up. But there are people like hospital administrators that will go to great pains to cover this stuff up. I tell you that with all certainly, because for over a decade I was the guy that would have to do the investigation. There has been far more sexual abuse in healthcare facilities than you will ever read about in the paper.

Hospitals are just not news worthy enough these days unless its something really really bad.

All I keep hearing about is how the US isn't a Christian nation. Now suddenly it is, and this is the new crusade? Please. The only similarity is that one side is completely muslim. These aren't Christian soldiers marching into the middle east to reclaim the holy land under the banner of the Holy See. It's just a war, like any other. People kill other people for the same reasons they always have. Greed, power, delusions of grandeur, the list goes on and on. You do realize that for a good long while, the vatican has been decidedly anti-war, don't you? And anti-death penalty? Realms that liberal atheists like to claim as their own so the can proclaim the church (when I say "the church", I'm referring to the catholic church. We won't even get into what the heretics believe, because I wasn't raised Protestant and don't know).

Does it have to be Christian solders or just a Christian leader to make it a Holly War. After all the Solders only follow the President/Congress orders. The Pope was totally against it because it couldn't be considered a Just war. In-fact because the US has Nuclear weapons almost no war is a Just war for the US. But all it takes is one man, one person to make it a holly war if his reasons are religious regions, Just or not Just. Solders of Christ or not.

I watched my father, a provo, get shot dead on the street by one of thatcher's hired proddy goons. Do I hate protestants because of it? No, because there hasn't been a "religious war" in a long, long time that was actually about religion. If I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and I get a bunch of other pastafarians together and lead a crusade against the scientologists, is it because of my fundamental difference in belief with there teachings, or is it because I want their shit? More than likely, it's about gain, not belief. Or maybe just because scientologists are annoying. It certainly wouldn't be about faith. It never is. And I doubt it was in the 13th century either. Maybe, people were a bit more superstitious in those days, but I'm pretty sure if Pope Benny called for a crusade against the muslims, r pretty much anyone else for that matter, catholics the world over would scratch their heads, say wtf?, and go about there business as always.

I think the Pope still has enough power to raise a army if he called for war. Out of a world of 6 Billion and with at least 1 billion Christian im sure he could raise at least 100 000 if desired. The part about your dad, that really sucks.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Does it have to be Christian solders or just a Christian leader to make it a Holly War. After all the Solders only follow the President/Congress orders. The Pope was totally against it because it couldn't be considered a Just war. In-fact because the US has Nuclear weapons almost no war is a Just war for the US. But all it takes is one man, one person to make it a holly war if his reasons are religious regions, Just or not Just. Solders of Christ or not.

You're very out of touch with reality. Soldiers do not follow the orders of the President and Congress. They are answerable to the President and Congress, but neither are in a position to be giving out orders. Whether or not the President is or is not a Christian has no effect on a war prosecuted by those who are no longer in power.

And what the heck is a "holly war?"

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Hey guys, I've been wondering. Is polydactyly an overall force for good in the world? I submit that it is not. AMIRITE?

Well it depends on if you're asking men or women?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

And what the heck is a "holly war?"

It's grammatically incorrect for; I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, but my parents always told me how smart I was.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Well I didn't realize the Pope was the leader, I thought God was. Either way The Just War Theory of the Catholic Church makes the responsibility of the decision to go to war a prudential judgment that basically means the civil authorities bear the responsibility of making sure the war is just before they fight it.

During the early part of the Iraq War in 2003, the covers of the briefings included photos of soldiers praying or in action in Iraq. These photos were accompanied by Bible verses.

Holly carp are you serious! Briefing covers? Slides?!! That's meaningful. No wait, what's that word I'm looking for... oh yeah "spin."

A US religious blog also called it a Holly War
Was Iraq a Holy War? - Aaron Taylor - God's Politics Blog

It gets better. A famous polydactyly blog called the Iraq war a Polydactyly War
Was Iraq a Polydactyly War? - Rick Astley

Get a some perspective here. Each post of yours sounds crazier and crazier. I hope no part of your wardrobe is currently made of aluminum foil, or you might need to change your outlook on the psychiatric profession...

So yes Crusades to have a bearing on modern day as history repeats itself.

As color commentary, not as causation. I named my goldfish Ghenghis Khan, that doesn't mean that Ghenghis Khan (the historical figure) is having a bearing on modern day Seattle (although Ghenghis Khan the goldfish surely will, he's going places). It just means I have a flair for the dramatic.

Get a grip. The world's religious aren't teaming up to "get you." Get a good night's sleep and stop begrudging people finding happiness in their faith.

[Athens]

Ok so tell me what makes Religion so great. I don't mean the good will work. What do you personally get out of believing in religion and being a good "insert faith here"

[Uncle Skeleton]

I'm not religious, I don't even like religion, at all. But I'm not so narcissistic to think that everyone should do just exactly what I choose to do.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Ok so tell me what makes Religion so great. I don't mean the good will work. What do you personally get out of believing in religion and being a good "insert faith here"

Why don't you tell us all why there should not be personal choice? Because you seem to be advocating, if I can bring in your America/Canada losing their identities ,um, argument, that the world is full of samey people who are all alike.

[Snow-i]

While this is true Jawbone, the question is whether overall Christianity results in more people acting "good" then using it as a vehicle for nefarious purposes.

I would submit that with all the new-bait being flicked about this thread, no one has mentioned the countless homeless shelters, charities, soup kitchens, etc etc solely operated and supported by churches and their members.

"homeless man gets a meal and a bed" doesn't sound quite as newsworthy as "vast Catholic conspiracy to sex up altar boys".

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Ok so tell me what makes Religion so great. I don't mean the good will work. What do you personally get out of believing in religion and being a good "insert faith here"

It's the collective of the laws/rules/guidelines governing societies handed down for generations. It's generations worth of evolved laws, fine tuned to help guide current generations lead a happy, fruitful life.

If one is so self righteous and over confident in one's self that they believe they can define their own guidelines in the span on their single lifetime more power to them. Personally, i wouldn't discount generations worth of wisdom that has influenced my forefathers all the way to me.

Dogma, institutions, etc..... i'll chalk that up to culture and tradition, and personally i find that all very entertaining. And maybe it's better to have that "stuff" than having a beige/boring existence without the dogma of different world religions.

[Sealobo]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

You have to be the one kidding, it's pretty clear you don't have a clue about this.

please feel free to google "christianity" and "guilt" and "base" together.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I'm not religious, I don't even like religion, at all. But I'm not so narcissistic to think that everyone should do just exactly what I choose to do.

Im narcissistic because I would prefer that all religions paid taxes, and all elements of religion was removed from government.....

[Athens]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Why don't you tell us all why there should not be personal choice? Because you seem to be advocating, if I can bring in your America/Canada losing their identities ,um, argument, that the world is full of samey people who are all alike.

At which point in your early life did you get a booklet with a choose your religion page on it explaining each of the religions. There was no personal choice for most people. It was decided at birth. Its one of the few things in life that is forced upon children early on because its needed to be. If you waited until age 18 to then ask a child to pick a religion, chances are no one would pick any religion at all. So you tell me how there is personal choice in religion.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

While this is true Jawbone, the question is whether overall Christianity results in more people acting "good" then using it as a vehicle for nefarious purposes.

I would submit that with all the new-bait being flicked about this thread, no one has mentioned the countless homeless shelters, charities, soup kitchens, etc etc solely operated and supported by churches and their members.

"homeless man gets a meal and a bed" doesn't sound quite as newsworthy as "vast Catholic conspiracy to sex up altar boys".

Churches are not required for that. While they do some of it, lots of non profit groups that are not religious based also do that. Salvation Army for example. Dedicated non profit organizations in my opinion should be able to do a better job because soup kitchens, clothing banks are just one part of Churches activities. And some Shelters/Kitchens and other means of helping people are also sometimes restricting people based on things against there faith such as homosexuality and are also used as recruitment camps. I would be no different if the US Army was setting up shelters and food kitchens and at the same time offering people papers to join the Army. At least dedicated non profit groups only have the motive of making money while helping people with no other motives. But your right running hospitals, shelters, food kitchens are not as news worthy as sex scandals.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

At which point in your early life did you get a booklet with a choose your religion page on it explaining each of the religions. There was no personal choice for most people. It was decided at birth. Its one of the few things in life that is forced upon children early on because its needed to be. If you waited until age 18 to then ask a child to pick a religion, chances are no one would pick any religion at all. So you tell me how there is personal choice in religion.

So people should wait until they are 18 to figure out what kind of food they like, what their favorite drink is, and what they like to do on weekends? You can change anytime you'd like. And believe me, as a college student, I've looked and learned about a TON of different ideas and values. I'm a Middle Eastern Studies major, if I wanted to, I could become Muslim quite easily. There is always a choice. And if you're saying that an adult cannot make his own choice, then I really want to know what you're on, because it must be the good stuff. And yes, I know that some people will never think things through and will always live the exact same life that their parents did, but there is never a point in life where you have no ability to change.

PS: I was raised by my grandparents who aren't religious.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

It's the collective of the laws/rules/guidelines governing societies handed down for generations. It's generations worth of evolved laws, fine tuned to help guide current generations lead a happy, fruitful life.

If one is so self righteous and over confident in one's self that they believe they can define their own guidelines in the span on their single lifetime more power to them. Personally, i wouldn't discount generations worth of wisdom that has influenced my forefathers all the way to me.

Finally some one actually tries to answer the question. So which laws/rules/guidelines do you follow. The ones handed down by the societies that make up the United States of America, the collective that forms the country which is passed down from generation to generation as a condition of being a member of society or the the laws/rules/guidelines of Religion. Because depending on which state you live in the 2 conflict in areas and a lot of the rules are the same making it redundant. IE If its legal to have abortion's in the State of Washington and its legal for homosexuals to get married, these 2 are obviously at conflict with the Religious laws that is against both.

Now, here is the tricky one, your a member of the Church and you don't think its fair that Gay men can't marry. How can you petition the Church to re-evaluate its interpretation of the bible which will ether come to the same conclusion as before or change these rules due to a different understanding of the cryptic messages which make up the bible.

Religious laws can't really change or update. People have no say in them. Society laws can and every one has a limited voice in those laws through politics.

So why are religious laws needed when we have modern societies that do the same thing but in a more democratic and fair way.

Your absolutely right that it provides all of what you stated, but that was before modern societies. What purpose does it serve now?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Im narcissistic because I would prefer that all religions paid taxes, and all elements of religion was removed from government.....

You want your (minority) opinion to be made the law of the land? Yeah that sounds pretty narcissistic to me.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Now, here is the tricky one, your a member of the Church and you don't think its fair that Gay men can't marry. How can you petition the Church to re-evaluate its interpretation of the bible which will ether come to the same conclusion as before or change these rules due to a different understanding of the cryptic messages which make up the bible.

It isn't tricky at all. You petition the leaders of your church, meet with them, pray over the situation, bring in Scripture (which don't support gay marriage), and then make a decision. Unless of course your a narcissist on the internet who walks in and demands that the church start marrying gay men.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

So people should wait until they are 18 to figure out what kind of food they like, what their favorite drink is, and what they like to do on weekends? You can change anytime you'd like. And believe me, as a college student, I've looked and learned about a TON of different ideas and values. I'm a Middle Eastern Studies major, if I wanted to, I could become Muslim quite easily. There is always a choice. And if you're saying that an adult cannot make his own choice, then I really want to know what you're on, because it must be the good stuff. And yes, I know that some people will never think things through and will always live the exact same life that their parents did, but there is never a point in life where you have no ability to change.

PS: I was raised by my grandparents who aren't religious.

You and I had a choice because we where raised by non religious people. Well actually my mom is religious but she didn't raise me religious. People that are raised to believe in the bible and church and religion from birth do not have a choice. We are talking about people so entrenched in there beliefs they cant even accept the earth is over 5000 years old and that dinosaur skeletons are a test from god to challenge faith. Its called Brain Washing and these people have little hope at all of ever having the option of even considering a change in religion.

One side of my family is of that brainwashing kind. Saying I was pro-choice in the house resulted in be being physically thrown out of the house at age 15 and I've had limited contact with that side of the family ever since. My youngest cuzin from the time he could talk had to read religious books and had religious stores read to him. From the earliest moments of his ability to communicate at a very young age he has been taught that anything that isn't accepted by the church is a sin a sin that means no after life with god. From what I observed about religion in those days is that its a scare tactic for compliance. My other 2 cuzins from the same family born to a different father and not raised religious never did well in that family. While religious teachings became part of there lives at age 12 and 8, it didn't have the same effect on them and while they call themselves Christians they believe in science like the earth being billions of years old. After my Aunt died a year later the 2 other cuzins moved in with there real father so that might have saved them a bit too. I grew up with out religion forced down my throat. I also saw it forced down the throat of a kid born into it and attempted to be forced down the throats of kids married into it.

Those that had a choice, mild teachings of it, generally use condoms, accept abortion accept the earth is billions of years old who don't really live by the book who will probably have children who are not raised religious while those that didn't have the choice will continue the cycle of child abuse, yes I call it child abuse continue for many generations to come.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

You want your (minority) opinion to be made the law of the land? Yeah that sounds pretty narcissistic to me.

My minority opinion, where i come from its the majority opinion. Religion is quickly going away here. Maybe this is something I can thank the Immigrants for

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Religious laws can't really change or update. People have no say in them. Society laws can and every one has a limited voice in those laws through politics.

You're going to feel pretty silly when you find out that religious laws can in fact change and update.

So why are religious laws needed when we have modern societies that do the same thing but in a more democratic and fair way.

Religions are voluntary. Citizenship is not voluntary. Where can you go to avoid all religions? Lots of places. Where can you go to avoid all countries? No place. I think you have your priorities backwards. The option of freedom from religion is far ahead of the option of freedom from nations.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

It isn't tricky at all. You petition the leaders of your church, meet with them, pray over the situation, bring in Scripture (which don't support gay marriage), and then make a decision. Unless of course your a narcissist on the internet who walks in and demands that the church start marrying gay men.

So you can't because of a document that is thousands of years old. Which means religious law can't change, can't adapt.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

You and I had a choice because we where raised by non religious people. Well actually my mom is religious but she didn't raise me religious. People that are raised to believe in the bible and church and religion from birth do not have a choice. We are talking about people so entrenched in there beliefs they cant even accept the earth is over 5000 years old and that dinosaur skeletons are a test from god to challenge faith. Its called Brain Washing and these people have little hope at all of ever having the option of even considering a change in religion.

I'm sorry, but people raised a certain way from birth are not brainwashed and are not robots. Logic goes a long way. If you are willing to sit down with someone and take the time out of your life to work through these mysteries together in a constructive format, I can guarantee you that the people on either side of the discussion will have their eyes opened. Right now there are a group of Muslims that I meet with every week who were very closed minded about Christians (and probably rightfully so). But by being able to sit down and work through both abstract and tangible parts of our faiths, we've gained more understanding of each other than would be possible by simply reading a book or debating on the internet. I really encourage you to find some Christian friends who are engaging with their faith on a day to day basis and talk about this stuff. It certainly won't hurt.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Athens 

So you can't because of a document that is thousands of years old. Which means religious law can't change, can't adapt.

They absolutely can and have.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

You and I had a choice because we where raised by non religious people. Well actually my mom is religious but she didn't raise me religious. People that are raised to believe in the bible and church and religion from birth do not have a choice. We are talking about people so entrenched in there beliefs they cant even accept the earth is over 5000 years old and that dinosaur skeletons are a test from god to challenge faith. Its called Brain Washing and these people have little hope at all of ever having the option of even considering a change in religion.

Is that a "thought-crime?"

Let people believe whatever they want, and they will let you do the same. The time to complain is when that stops happening, not because it is happening.

One side of my family is of that brainwashing kind. Saying I was pro-choice in the house resulted in be being physically thrown out of the house at age 15 and I've had limited contact with that side of the family ever since.

Whereas if you had your way, saying they were pro-life would have them physically thrown out? Or reverse-brainwashed until they agree with you?

It's not your place to raise other people's children.

My youngest cuzin from the time he could talk had to read religious books and had religious stores read to him. From the earliest moments of his ability to communicate at a very young age he has been taught that anything that isn't accepted by the church is a sin a sin that means no after life with god. From what I observed about religion in those days is that its a scare tactic for compliance. My other 2 cuzins from the same family born to a different father and not raised religious never did well in that family. While religious teachings became part of there lives at age 12 and 8, it didn't have the same effect on them and while they call themselves Christians they believe in science like the earth being billions of years old. After my Aunt died a year later the 2 other cuzins moved in with there real father so that might have saved them a bit too. I grew up with out religion forced down my throat. I also saw it forced down the throat of a kid born into it and attempted to be forced down the throats of kids married into it.

Just a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing your poor "abused" "cuzins" have better spelling and grammar than you do.

Those that had a choice, mild teachings of it, generally use condoms, accept abortion accept the earth is billions of years old who don't really live by the book who will probably have children who are not raised religious while those that didn't have the choice will continue the cycle of child abuse, yes I call it child abuse continue for many generations to come.

What's next? You start a "holly war" against those "abusers" to "liberate" their children from them?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

You're going to feel pretty silly when you find out that religious laws can in fact change and update.


Religions are voluntary. Citizenship is not voluntary. Where can you go to avoid all religions? Lots of places. Where can you go to avoid all countries? No place. I think you have your priorities backwards. The option of freedom from religion is far ahead of the option of freedom from nations.

I argue neither is Voluntary. From birth a child is a citizen of the nation and if parents are religious become indoctrinated into that religion from birth.

I want to hear your opinions why its voluntary while I write out my reasons its not. I'll be posting it in a while to try and avoid (dyslexic mistakes)

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I argue neither is Voluntary. From birth a child is a citizen of the nation and if parents are religious become indoctrinated into that religion from birth.

I want to hear your opinions why its voluntary while I write out my reasons its not. I'll be posting it in a while to try and avoid (dyslexic mistakes)

Simple, you can leave. People do it all the time. Also, you can join. People do it all the time.

Just try to renounce your US citizenship and stop paying taxes, and see how far you get with it. You'd get a lot farther trying to renounce Catholicism, I guarantee you that. In the 1600s, excommunication meant something. Now, not so much.


And "indoctrination" might not be ideal, but it really is unavoidable. Letting a child remain a "blank slate" is not an option. That would really be child abuse (look up the "skinner box"). The human mind needs activity in order to develop during childhood. All children must learn something. But that doesn't lock them in for life. They have free will, then and ever after. If they choose to stay with the values of their upbringing, it is because they choose to, it is voluntary even if they decide not to volunteer.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Is that a "thought-crime?"

Let people believe whatever they want, and they will let you do the same. The time to complain is when that stops happening, not because it is happening.

You mean let people be brainwashed

Whereas if you had your way, saying they were pro-life would have them physically thrown out? Or reverse-brainwashed until they agree with you?

Nope, I would never do either in my own home. But at least your starting to agree that brain washing is involved.

It's not your place to raise other people's children.

Well in that context it wasn't their right either since 2 of the 3 kids where not even blood relations and they promptly kicked them out of the house after the mother died of cancer so I guess they removed themselves from a lost cause anyways.

Just a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing your poor "abused" "cuzins" have better spelling and grammar than you do.

Yes, none of them suffer any neurological deficiency that affect phonological decoding but one of them can't get a drivers license due to a different neurological deficiency.

What's next? You start a "holly war" against those "abusers" to "liberate" their children from them?

Delicious, you appear to also suffer from a neurological deficiency

[Athens]

Whats the difference between a Religion and a Cult. Both operate the same way?

[Uncle Skeleton]

do you even know what "phonological" means?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Simple, you can leave. People do it all the time. Also, you can join. People do it all the time.

Just try to renounce your US citizenship and stop paying taxes, and see how far you get with it. You'd get a lot farther trying to renounce Catholicism, I guarantee you that. In the 1600s, excommunication meant something. Now, not so much.


And "indoctrination" might not be ideal, but it really is unavoidable. Letting a child remain a "blank slate" is not an option. That would really be child abuse (look up the "skinner box"). The human mind needs activity in order to develop during childhood. All children must learn something. But that doesn't lock them in for life. They have free will, then and ever after. If they choose to stay with the values of their upbringing, it is because they choose to, it is voluntary even if they decide not to volunteer.

We need to ask some one who is religious if that is something they can even contemplate. I bed hard core religious people will say no thats blasphemy while mildly religious people might be able to contemplate it.

[Doofy]

I can't believe you chaps are having this conversation on Christmas Eve.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

do you even know what "phonological" means?

Yes

Phonology (from Ancient Greek: φωνή, phōnḗ, "voice, sound" and λόγος, lógos, "word, speech, subject of discussion") is the systematic use of sound to encode meaning in any spoken human language, or the field of linguistics studying this use. Just as a language has syntax and vocabulary, it also has a phonology in the sense of a sound system. When describing the formal area of study, the term typically describes linguistic analysis either beneath the word (e.g., syllable, onset and rhyme, phoneme, articulatory gestures, articulatory feature, mora, etc.) or to units at all levels of language that are thought to structure sound for conveying linguistic meaning.
It is viewed as the subfield of linguistics that deals with the sound systems of languages. Whereas phonetics is about the physical production, acoustic transmission and perception of the sounds of speech, phonology describes the way sounds function within a given language or across languages to encode meaning. The term "phonology" was used in the linguistics of a greater part of the 20th century as a cover term uniting phonemics and phonetics. Current phonology can interface with disciplines such as psycholinguistics and speech perception, resulting in specific areas like articulatory or laboratory phonology.

Reading back a sentence for spell and grammar checking, and the production of a sentence are both affected by it. When you are reading something, out loud or in your head you are hearing it either way.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Whats the difference between a Religion and a Cult. Both operate the same way?

Even if you intend "cult" to be a purely derogatory label for all religions, claiming that religions are nothing more than cults more than one generation old, this still bestows a certain value on the oldest and most established "cults," due to survival of the fittest, the genetic algorithm of "cult selection." If a cult has survived and managed to thrive (attract followers who remain successful in life and produce successful offspring etc) for as long as the world's major religions have, then that alone indicates that its doctrines are sound, at least more so than any random cult that starts up now. And again, it's because they are voluntary The mechanism of selection is literally that they are directly selected by followers who have a choice of which "cult" is best. The cult would not persist this long if it was not worthy.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I can't believe you chaps are having this conversation on Christmas Eve.

You mean Holiday Eve, last thing we want to do is be un PC just before Christmas....

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I can't believe you chaps are having this conversation on Christmas Eve.

I'm Jewish

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

We need to ask some one who is religious if that is something they can even contemplate. I bed hard core religious people will say no thats blasphemy while mildly religious people might be able to contemplate it.

And there you have it: bigotry. You think religious people are "too stupid" to figure out how to leave, if that's their desire. Bigotry, plain and simple.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Even if you intend "cult" to be a purely derogatory label for all religions, claiming that religions are nothing more than cults more than one generation old, this still bestows a certain value on the oldest and most established "cults," due to survival of the fittest, the genetic algorithm of "cult selection." If a cult has survived and managed to thrive (attract followers who remain successful in life and produce successful offspring etc) for as long as the world's major religions have, then that alone indicates that its doctrines are sound, at least more so than any random cult that starts up now. And again, it's because they are voluntary The mechanism of selection is literally that they are directly selected by followers who have a choice of which "cult" is best. The cult would not persist this long if it was not worthy.

So you are saying Cults and Religions are the same except religions are established while Cults are startup's?

I thought there was more to do with it then just age.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

And there you have it: bigotry. You think religious people are "too stupid" to figure out how to leave, if that's their desire. Bigotry, plain and simple.

I wouldn't have gone as far as saying stupid. I would have actually said programmed through brain washing techniques to make it a unavailable choice.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

So you are saying Cults and Religions are the same except religions are established while Cults are startup's?

No, I'm saying even in this most extreme, probably false interpretation, the religion still holds merit.

I thought there was more to do with it then just age.

Spill

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

And there you have it: bigotry. You think religious people are "too stupid" to figure out how to leave, if that's their desire. Bigotry, plain and simple.

/Athens

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I wouldn't have gone as far as saying stupid. I would have actually said programmed through brain washing techniques to make it a unavailable choice.

How do you know you weren't brainwashed into thinking religion is bad? You certainly have all the symptoms of brainwashing, your rigid insistence, hypocrisy, bias (by your own words), paranoia, accusations, unwillingness to let others make their own decisions for fear they might accidentally make the "wrong" decisions (the ones that oppose you). I think you might very well be a brainwashing victim. Your caretakers should be punished immediately, what is their address?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

No, I'm saying even in this most extreme, probably false interpretation, the religion still holds merit.


Spill

So whats the difference, why do establish religions hold more merit. If its not age, what else gives established religion more merit.

[imitchellg5]

He said nothing about more or less merit.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

So whats the difference, why do establish religions hold more merit. If its not age, what else gives established religion more merit.

You tell me. You're the one who said there is more to it then [sic] that.