[BRussell]

The "top 10 reasons" thread made me think about this.

Why do people believe in God? According to polls like this one, essentially all Americans believe in God.

"Do you believe in God or a universal spirit?" (Percent saying "Yes.")

1947: 94%
1953: 99%
1978: 94%
1994: 96%

It seems like a lot less than 96% of MacNNers believe in God (which is an interesting question in itself...) but at least if you're talking about Americans, belief in God is about as close as you can get to a universal belief. If you asked people if they believe in the existence of the sun and moon I bet you wouldn't get much higher than 96%.

It could be that God exists and sends us messages to believe. But for the purpose of this thread, let's not assume that's what's going on. Let's assume that God doesn't exist. Why then do people believe? Is there a God gene? Is it just taught to everyone?

[Disgruntled Head of C-3PO]

It might be genetic by this point.

At any rate I believe most people say they believe in God just to cover their butts in case...

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Let's assume that God doesn't exist. Why then do people believe?

Impossible logic.
How can one ask why people believe if you assume them to be believing in something which doesn't exist? You discount any answers based on the truth of the matter.

Your question is like asking:
"Ford doesn't exist. Why then do so many people buy F150s?"

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Why then do people believe?

May I comment? Imho, the problem with that question lies in the fact that it calls for more rationalizations which will turn into an empty debate and soured egos.

Instead, how about asking: "what are the facts that make you believe in (a) God?"

But you start with a strong affirmation:

1) there is no God

and ask a question:

2) why do you believe (anyway)?

but you specify:

3) is it hereditary, as in an artifact of Evolution?

or

4) do you believe because you learned to believe in God?

So the question is anwerable to no one, because,

6) none will accept your preposition ( item 1) without being in contradiction with the questions. except for

7) those who believe there is no God, and will therefore apply a rationalization to explain the behavior of those who believe.

Following that, the debate will turn quite sour for the simple reasons that people do not like to be judge (which is what rationalizations are all about) on fundamental belief (which is linked to the reason of their existence).

[Chuckit]

People believe in God because it's essentially a zero-cost action that nets you both acceptance and warm fuzzies. (Note that I'm not saying this is why everybody believes in God. There are many people who are more sincere. I just think the number would be a lot lower if there were some kind of tax on belief in God.)

[itistoday]

Probably a combination of stupidity and insecurity.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Probably a combination of stupidity and insecurity.

Only someone stupid and insecure would say such a thing.

I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my parents. It's not too difficult to understand.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Impossible logic.
How can one ask why people believe if you assume them to be believing in something which doesn't exist? You discount any answers based on the truth of the matter.

Your question is like asking:
"Ford doesn't exist. Why then do so many people buy F150s?"

If you can't conceive of any other reason why people might believe in God other than God's existence, then perhaps this thread isn't for you.

[Chuckit]

It's true that, over the course of history, many people have believed in some kind of higher power � but they have disagreed so vehemently on the details and identity of this higher power that it's completely impossible to assume they were all right. Most of them must have been wrong.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
May I comment? Imho, the problem with that question lies in the fact that it calls for more rationalizations which will turn into an empty debate and soured egos.

There are people who study human behavior who ask this question in a serious way all the time.

But if it does become a silly atheist vs. religious stupid-fest, I'd be happier to see it locked than for it to continue.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by BRussell:
If you can't conceive of any other reason why people might believe in God other than God's existence, then perhaps this thread isn't for you.

If you can't conceive that people might believe in God because He actually exists, then maybe rational objective thought isn't for you?

You've come to the conclusion that because you think God doesn't exist, then He actually doesn't and everyone who believes that He does must be doing it for some alternative reason.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
If you can't conceive that people might believe in God because He actually exists, then maybe rational objective thought isn't for you?

Large numbers of people do not believe in things because they are true. This has never been the case. Widespread belief among the uneducated is generally the result of some kind of propaganda or social conditioning. At best, it's because the truth has been well-publicized. But you're really stretching to suggest that that people believe in it because of some overwhelming truth-ray bursting from the idea to which I am somehow immune.

And again, the question asked of these people is not whether "He" actually exists. It's whether some higher power (maybe one that completely hates your imagined God) actually exists.

[porieux]

Originally posted by BRussell:
The "top 10 reasons" thread made me think about this.

Why do people believe in God? According to polls like this one, essentially all Americans believe in God.



It seems like a lot less than 96% of MacNNers believe in God (which is an interesting question in itself...) but at least if you're talking about Americans, belief in God is about as close as you can get to a universal belief. If you asked people if they believe in the existence of the sun and moon I bet you wouldn't get much higher than 96%.

It could be that God exists and sends us messages to believe. But for the purpose of this thread, let's not assume that's what's going on. Let's assume that God doesn't exist. Why then do people believe? Is there a God gene? Is it just taught to everyone?

Because humans are pathetic creatures who can't deal with the reality of the fact that they are going to die.

Not that I believe those figures for a second. It isn't THAT bad.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by porieux:
Because humans are pathetic creatures who can't deal with the reality of the fact that they are going to die.

Not that I believe those figures for a second. It isn't THAT bad.

bingo!

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by BRussell:
There are people who study human behavior who ask this question in a serious way all the time.

But if it does become a silly atheist vs. religious stupid-fest, I'd be happier to see it locked than for it to continue.

Well,

the way you formulated your question, it can only be interpreted as provocation for those who believe.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
If you can't conceive that people might believe in God because He actually exists, then maybe rational objective thought isn't for you?

You've come to the conclusion that because you think God doesn't exist, then He actually doesn't and everyone who believes that He does must be doing it for some alternative reason.

Hey, I put this in the very first post:

It could be that God exists and sends us messages to believe. But for the purpose of this thread, let's not assume that's what's going on.

It's a way of constraining the debate. I love the theological discussions and the "does God really exist" threads. I just wanted to keep this more of an anthropological kind of discussion. There's some interesting theories about it, like this book The God Gene that just came out.

It's not even inconsistent with the existence of God - God might have put a God module in our brains to put us in touch, for example. There are a number of religious psychologists like David Myers who are interested in these kinds of questions. Lighten up!

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
the way you formulated your question, it can only be interpreted as provocation for those who believe.

How could he have formulated the same question so as to keep the apparently savage theists from attacking?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by porieux:
Because humans are pathetic creatures who can't deal with the reality of the fact that they are going to die.

I've seen pathetic in here. It's not coming from the religious.

[porieux]

Sorry, I was using reality as my basis, not 'forum life'

[bubblewrap]

Change God to Allah. Or Satan.
That should get an even warmer reception.
I've noticed that when the "progressives and open minded" take a stab at Christians, they only use the word God. Take a stab at all, equally.

I too was a God hating atheist once.

[Mithras]

porieux: that doesn't explain belief in God per se, as there are theistic religions that don't preach immortality. Judaism comes to mind.

Here is my irreverent contribution to the flamewar, courtesy of Epicurus. (I'll try to find an online citation)

Faith in immortality was born of the greed of unsatisfied people who make unwise use of the time that nature has allotted us.

But the wise man finds his life span sufficient to complete the full circle of attainable pleasures, and when the time of death comes, he will leave the table satisfied, freeing a place for other guests.

For the wise man, one human life is sufficient, and a stupid man will not know what to do with eternity.

[porieux]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Change God to Allah. Or Satan.
That should get an even warmer reception.
I've noticed that when the "progressives and open minded" take a stab at Christians, they only use the word God. Take a stab at all, equally.

I too was a God hating atheist once.

It's all the same sh!t You are making a distinction where there is none.
You can include the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and 'us democracy' while you are at it.

BTW, it would be silly to hate something that doesn't exist.

[Mithras]

BRussell: I think the answer lies in this overdeveloped induction engine we've got in our heads. We look for, and find, patterns and causes. Because of language, we have the ability to link together chains of such thoughts to an indefinite length, which causes us to posit Unmoved Movers, Bringers of Rain, and so on.

Related question: Does a dog believe in a kind of superstitious Food God, or Bone God? Or do they have a more direct social understanding of the causes of these things?

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Change God to Allah. Or Satan.
That should get an even warmer reception.
I've noticed that when the "progressives and open minded" take a stab at Christians, they only use the word God. Take a stab at all, equally.

Uh...there was no stabbing of anybody, and certainly not Christians in particular.

Good grief, there seems to be a lot more insecurity among the Christian faithful than I'd figured.

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
I too was a God hating atheist once.

Why do people always do this? It's like I'm supposed to think, "OMG, that means he knows my inner God-hating and can see through my fa�ade of simply thinking it's false!"

There is no such thing as a God-hating atheist. It is a contradiction of terms.

[porieux]

Originally posted by Mithras:
porieux: that doesn't explain belief in God per se, as there are theistic religions that don't preach immortality. Judaism comes to mind.

Here is my irreverent contribution to the flamewar, courtesy of Epicurus. (I'll try to find an online citation)

This mass manipulation tactic (religion) doesn't require a promise of 'immortality', that's just the lowest rung on the totem pole. The basic premise is that they provide 'meaning' to what shallow unthinking individuals may otherwise feel is a 'meaningless' existence.

I think the point stands.

[bubblewrap]

Originally posted by porieux:
It's all the same sh!t You are making a distinction where there is none.
You can include the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and 'us democracy' while you are at it.

BTW, it would be silly to hate something that doesn't exist.

The Idea of God. And why wasn't Allah used? Didn't want to just single out muslims perhaps? Or Yaweah to offend Jews? I still say it was a stab at just Christians. Period.

My God is not a seperate entity from creation.(Pantheist)
All are one in the same. The energy that is molecular attraction that science can't explain. The void that we call space. The infinitely divisible particles that matter is comprised of is the physical manifestation of God or whatever label you choose to place on the entity. We are all part of God and vice versa. Our souls or spark of life, is all part of this.

[Salah al-Din]

There are probably as many reasons as there are believers(or at least as many as all the little varieties of religions in this world.

But some of the most obvious "reasons" would be the following.

1) The Big Bang theory leaves a big hole in our understanding. Where did it come from? What was before? What is outside our universe(since it started in a a singular point it should have boundaries)? Where did all the matter come from? etc etc.....

2) Why is there only life on Earth(so far)? What made the earth so special? Why shouldn't life have been able to "adapt" or "evolved" on other planets? etc etc

3) Why are humans so "special"? etc etc


Alot of these questions come up and there are few concrete answers. Hence it makes sense for many that something created all this(how and what role He plays after the creation varies as we have seen here).

Then of course we have the "God gene". I know very few converts between religions and it is very seldom that someone who's family is *insert religion* turns to another religion.

We also have people who use religion for their own benefit(very popular among politicians) though they do not themselves belief. But if you get the population of a nation to follow mostly one religion it becomes much more easy to control the way they think.

But I think for most "true" believers it has to do with the inner calm and inner strength it gives you when you find yourself alone with God. Not everyone finds that and it's something that is very difficult to explain to those who haven't experienced it.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
The Idea of God. And why wasn't Allah used?

Because Allah is the Arabic word for God and we prefer to use English here.


I guess...

[itistoday]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
There are probably as many reasons as there are believers(or at least as many as all the little varieties of religions in this world.

But some of the most obvious "reasons" would be the following.

1) The Big Bang theory leaves a big hole in our understanding. Where did it come from? What was before? What is outside our universe(since it started in a a singular point it should have boundaries)? Where did all the matter come from? etc etc.....

Yes, this is true.

2) Why is there only life on Earth(so far)? What made the earth so special? Why shouldn't life have been able to "adapt" or "evolved" on other planets? etc etc

Uh, this is simple to answer. The Earth happened to have been created at a particular distance from the Sun, and it happened to be a particular size. That's about it. Nothing too special about it, just simple chance. There are other planets out there, but for life to exist on a planet, it must be made using certain materials, at a certain distance from the sun, and a certain size. It's just that that doesn't happen very often. However, I would be willing to bet any sum of money that there is life on another planet other than our own, it's just it's virtually impossible to find them with a simple telescope.

3) Why are humans so "special"? etc etc

I'm not sure where you got this idea, but humans are simply highly evolved monkeys, we're not that special.

[bubblewrap]

The Big Bang is nothing more that a natural cycle of matter.
Matter is scattered, molecular attraction gathers matter back to a singularity. Then the process starts over.
Perhaps there are infinite universes scattered about through the endless expance of space.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
The Big Bang is nothing more that a natural cycle of matter.
Matter is scattered, molecular attraction gathers matter back to a singularity. Then the process starts over.
Perhaps there are infinite universes scattered about through the endless expance of space.

Um, no. You sound as if you just came up with that. Actually, recent findings (search google for 'WMAP probe') suggest that there will be no "Big Crunch" and that matter will continue accelerating (read: things will head toward entropy).

[bubblewrap]

Only if there is such thing as the omega factor. It takes energy to accelerate. The energy was expended when the singularity exploded. The only way the universe can expand is if there is an unseen force pulling matter outward. Otherwise molecular attraction will do it's job.

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by itistoday:
Uh, this is simple to answer. The Earth happened to have been created at a particular distance from the Sun, and it happened to be a particular size. That's about it. Nothing too special about it, just simple chance. There are other planets out there, but for life to exist on a planet, it must be made using certain materials, at a certain distance from the sun, and a certain size. It's just that that doesn't happen very often. However, I would be willing to bet any sum of money that there is life on another planet other than our own, it's just it's virtually impossible to find them with a simple telescope.

Actually as we have seen here on earth life can evolve under almost all extreme biomes on earth. Why not elsewhere?

I'm not sure where you got this idea, but humans are simply highly evolved monkeys, we're not that special.

We are special just like insects are special or arachnias are special or whatever other animal there is on this planet. But what has made us "special" is how highly evolved our brain is. It has made it possible for us to question so many aspects of life. That makes us "special".

[IceBreaker]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
It might be genetic by this point.

At any rate I believe most people say they believe in God just to cover their butts in case...

I tend to agree, people have to believe in something and the consequences of not believing are pretty horrific, so best to "cover your butt" & state the obvious or risk eternal damnation in hell?

[Salah al-Din]

Originally posted by IceBreaker:
I tend to agree, people have to believe in something and the consequences of not believing are pretty horrific, so best to "cover your butt" & state the obvious or risk eternal damnation in hell?

But that doesn't make any sense since in most religions God knows your true intentions and therefor he would know that you really don't believe.

But yes, I'm pretty sure people do that still.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Only if there is such thing as the omega factor. It takes energy to accelerate. The energy was expended when the singularity exploded. The only way the universe can expand is if there is an unseen force pulling matter outward. Otherwise molecular attraction will do it's job.

Well, there is also such a thing as continuing expanding at 0 acceleration. However, if I remember correctly, we're supposedly expanding at an exponential rate? This could be because of dark energy, which makes up 73% of the universe.

Edit: I think it's a constant rate that happens to be 71 (km/sec)/Mpc (kilometers per second per Megaparsec) according to WMAP's data.

For more interesting information about this, read through the stuff on this site.

[dcmacdaddy]

Who cares? Really?

A discussion in an internet forum is NOT going to change a person's mind about something as profound as belief in a god/higher power/supreme being.

Those in this forum that believe in a higher power will continue to do so, those that don't believe in a higher power will continue to do so as well.

I don't care WHAT anyone believes or WHY they believe it. I just want to be left along to believe or not believe as I see fit.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by dcmacdaddy:
Who cares? Really?

Apparently a lot of people do.

I don't care WHAT anyone believes or WHY they believe it. I just want to be left along to believe or not believe as I see fit.

Then ignore these threads, no one's forcing you to read them. But you should care about what other people think, because sometimes they have far reaching consequences (race riots, World War II, the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc).

[SlowHands]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I've seen pathetic in here. It's not coming from the religious.

You failed to understand his point.
Now was that intentional or are you plain stupid?

Religion exists on the same principle that opium addicts some people.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
But that doesn't make any sense since in most religions God knows your true intentions and therefor he would know that you really don't believe.

But yes, I'm pretty sure people do that still.

It is because in their soul most people in fact really do believe by the 96% margin or whatever it is.

It is such a tiny vocal minority that really do not believe.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by SlowHands:
You failed to understand his point.

No, I understood it completely.

Now was that intentional or are you plain stupid?

You forgot option C. This post is plain stupid.

Religion exists on the same principle that opium addicts some people.

No. Not in the way you are inferring.

We are all filled with a void. We choose what we fill it with. It wasn't mean to be filled with opium, but hey, free will.

What I see a lot in here is people who don't understand something, calling the people who do, stupid.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by Mithras:
BRussell: I think the answer lies in this overdeveloped induction engine we've got in our heads. We look for, and find, patterns and causes. Because of language, we have the ability to link together chains of such thoughts to an indefinite length, which causes us to posit Unmoved Movers, Bringers of Rain, and so on.

Yeah I think that's right. As much as people think science and religion are at odds, I think they come from the same place. They are both attempts to understand the world.

I also think it comes in part from the experience of the infinite. I think that the non-religious can look out into the stars or think about quanta and get that same feeling of the infinite that theists get when they think about God. We can understand that there are things we don't understand, that there's something beyond us, whether that's God or the bent space in black holes. I think that experience of numinous is a part of the reason people are religious.

I also bet that the structure provided by ritual, which I think is also an important part of religion, is something highly appealing to us as a species.

Related question: Does a dog believe in a kind of superstitious Food God, or Bone God? Or do they have a more direct social understanding of the causes of these things?

It's interesting to think about human development. At first, children don't have any sense of object permanence. Daddy doesn't even exist if Daddy's gone. Then they develop a lot of "magical" thinking - they anthropomorphize everything (the wind blows because it's angry) and think everything revolves around them (the sky is blue because it's my favorite color). My intuition is that dogs are probably at that first level, without that self-awareness that's necessary for religion. But who knows? Interesting question.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by BRussell:
Yeah I think that's right. As much as people think science and religion are at odds, I think they come from the same place. They are both attempts to understand the world.

I also think it comes in part from the experience of the infinite. I think that the non-religious can look out into the stars or think about quanta and get that same feeling of the infinite that theists get when they think about God. We can understand that there are things we don't understand, that there's something beyond us, whether that's God or the bent space in black holes. I think that experience of numinous is a part of the reason people are religious.

I also bet that the structure provided by ritual, which I think is also an important part of religion, is something highly appealing to us as a species. It's interesting to think about human development. At first, children don't have any sense of object permanence. Daddy doesn't even exist if Daddy's gone. Then they develop a lot of "magical" thinking - they anthropomorphize everything (the wind blows because it's angry) and think everything revolves around them (the sky is blue because it's my favorite color). My intuition is that dogs are probably at that first level, without that self-awareness that's necessary for religion. But who knows? Interesting question.

So to you, whether or not there is a God is moot.

What counts is how human beings rationalize its existence.

[Zimphire]

There is nothing to rationalize.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
So to you, whether or not there is a God is moot.

What counts is how human beings rationalize its existence.

There's no way to prove whether God really exists or not, so I'm just saying let's leave that aside for the purposes of this thread in order to ask why people would believe in God if God does not exist. It's sorta obvious why people would believe in God if God does really exist, so I'm wondering the other side of the question.

For what it's worth, I was thinking about this partially because of the sermon I heard this morning in church. The question was whether people would believe in the messages of Jesus if there hadn't been angels and trumpets and booming voices from the heavens. He was weaving the fact that it's Superbowl day into the sermon, talking about how no one would pay any attention to a game like that unless it was hyped and advertised and built up like it is. His point was that we need a big attention-grabbing advertisement to believe in things, and he asked us to think about whether we would believe in Jesus' message if there was no church or angels or star or visions.

[BLAZE_MkIV]

People believe in god plural, singular or strawberry because someone they trust told them they should.
If you were never told about religeon then you wouldn't believe.

Referencing 2b1 from the Websters definition belief without proof. Without proof there is nothing to lead to something to believe in. So somewhere along the line either A the proof was lost or B the belief was fabricated.


Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my parents. It's not too difficult to understand.

God tucked you into bed and read you "Goodnight Moon" too?

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
It might be genetic by this point.

At any rate I believe most people say they believe in God just to cover their butts in case...

first point probably true. second point maybe.
"There's Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics" you know - maybe the poll is bad.

I'm athiest.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Only someone stupid and insecure would say such a thing.

I believe in God for the same reason I believe in my parents. It's not too difficult to understand.

Huh? I can't understand it. :???:

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by porieux:
Because humans are pathetic creatures who can't deal with the reality of the fact that they are going to die.

Not that I believe those figures for a second. It isn't THAT bad.

Right on!