[Orion27]

Andrei Markovits writes:
"Indeed, they bear responsibility for having created a situation in which anti-Americanism has mutated into a sort of global antinomy, a mutually shared language of opposition to and resistance against the real and perceived ills of modernity that are now inextricably identified with America."....

"As I argue in my recently published book, Uncouth Nation: Why Europe Dislikes America, anti-Americanism precedes the misdeeds of the Bush administration and will remain largely intact even when - God willing - we will see this eight-year-long nightmare end on January 20, 2009 with the inauguration of a Democrat as our new president. Anti-Americanism has become a welcome currency in Europe and for Europeans."

Read the whole article. Enjoy! : The Blog | Andrei Markovits: Why Europe Dislikes America | The Huffington Post

[Doofy]

Let's get it straight...

Europe doesn't dislike America.
European lefties dislike America.

OK, so the US has its problems (like ridiculously low speed limits, not enough topless beaches and idiotic gambling laws) and some bits I'd rather nuke (like university marching bands)... ...but all in all it's a fine country.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

and some bits I'd rather nuke (like university marching bands)... ...but all in all it's a fine country.

In before brassplayersrock sees this...

[slpdLoad]

It's because we spell color without a "u" and don't spell meter "metre", isn't it?

[voodoo]

Europe dislikes America? I'm beginning to think America dislikes America and some people are projecting it on Europe.

I really like America. I'm just not going there until they stop fingerprinting and photographing me when I visit.

V

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Let's get it straight....but all in all it's a fine country.

Not really. Europe is on the right track. With France leading the way, Europeans will embrace the Union and counter American hegemony as a new European Superpower. France will reclaim it's historic role in world diplomacy and negotiation as Germany and Eastern Europe become it's economic engine. North African and Arab immigrants will embrace a new European brand of American style immigation policies and become a prime source of cheap labor. Taking advantage of the natural antipathy towards all things American, and borrowing from the Islamist rejection of modernity, Europe can build a new social order based on asceticism ( enviromentally friendly ), Shia law, as opposed to the fundamentally flawed Judeo Christian Ethic, and non-violence. Europe will thus be able to isolate America to the west as it continues to look east to realize it's manifest destiny.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Not really. Europe is on the right track. With France leading the way, Europeans will embrace the Union and counter American hegemony as a new European Superpower. France will reclaim it's historic role in world diplomacy and negotiation as Germany and Eastern Europe become it's economic engine. North African and Arab immigrants will embrace a new European brand of American style immigation policies and become a prime source of cheap labor. Taking advantage of the natural antipathy towards all things American, and borrowing from the Islamist rejection of modernity, Europe can build a new social order based on asceticism ( enviromentally friendly ), Shia law, as opposed to the fundamentally flawed Judeo Christian Ethic, and non-violence. Europe will thus be able to isolate America to the west as it continues to look east to realize it's manifest destiny.

¿Qué?

Have you ever.. you know.. been to Yurp?

V

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

¿Qué?

Have you ever.. you know.. been to Yurp?

V

Yes. And you never answered my question. When did you become a citizen of Spain?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Yes.

I highly doubt this, tell me more of your travels in Yurp. Where did you go, why and for how long. What people did you meet and where do you think Europe ends in the east?

Oh and it was in 2006.

V

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I highly doubt this, tell me more of your travels in Yurp. Where did you go, why and for how long. What people did you meet and where do you think Europe ends in the east?

Oh and it was in 2006.

V

Which is why I find your chauvinsim so compelling.

Humble uncouth tourist. London, Amsterdam, Rome ( Circa 1984 )

The union or continent? Or those who embrace a constitution?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Humble uncouth tourist. London, Amsterdam, Rome ( Circa 1984 )

You didn't see many muslims there then, I dare say.

The union or continent? Or those who embrace a constitution?

The continent, culturally and geographically. That is, where does Europe end for all practical purposes to the east?

Also, I think so called anti-Americanism in Europe is largely non-existant. However, unlike almost all countries in the world, most European countries are not shy of voicing their opinion. Sometimes that opinion will fall against the opionios of America.

Be that as it may, it is no anti-Americanism. There is no 'us' against 'them' between the USA and the countries of Europe. A difference of opinion at times. That's it.

Why is there the interest of painting yourselves as martyrs? Just face the music.

V

[ooninay]

My personal theory about people who dislike "Americans", based entirely on observation--not any kind of controlled study or reading--is that what they really dislike is a certain stereotype of Americans, namely the arrogant, unsophisticated, unworldly, usually-Republican, "Christian", opinionated, anti-evolution, sexually repressed yet sexually obsessed, talks-loudly-in-restaurants type. Most Americans I've met are as repelled by that type of person as anyone else is.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You didn't see many muslims there then, I dare say.

No. There are many more here in Brooklyn and Queens on Long Island than I remember in Europe.

The continent, culturally and geographically. That is, where does Europe end for all practical purposes to the east?

The Caucasus, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria though some would include others.

Also, I think so called anti-Americanism in Europe is largely non-existant. However, unlike almost all countries in the world, most European countries are not shy of voicing their opinion. Sometimes that opinion will fall against the opionios of America.

Nice to know

Be that as it may, it is no anti-Americanism. There is no 'us' against 'them' between the USA and the countries of Europe. A difference of opinion at times. That's it.

Comforting no doubt.

Why is there the interest of painting yourselves as martyrs?

No, not martyrs. Patsies. ...

V

lll

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Europe dislikes America? I'm beginning to think America dislikes America and some people are projecting it on Europe.

I really like America. I'm just not going there until they stop fingerprinting and photographing me when I visit.

V

Orion hates the U. S. of A.

Europe is the new cool.

Bush made everything suck.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ooninay 

My personal theory about people who dislike "Americans", based entirely on observation--not any kind of controlled study or reading--is that what they really dislike is a certain stereotype of Americans, namely the arrogant, unsophisticated, unworldly, usually-Republican, "Christian", opinionated, anti-evolution, sexually repressed yet sexually obsessed, talks-loudly-in-restaurants type. Most Americans I've met are as repelled by that type of person as anyone else is.

I agree, and what this stereotype represents...

[Aron Peterson]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Not really. Europe is on the right track. With France leading the way, Europeans will embrace the Union and counter American hegemony as a new European Superpower.

Not a chance. Apart from Britain, Germany and those Scandinavian nations that have been so inventive of late, the rest of Europe doesn't do much. And speak to any politician, even American ones, and they'll tell you the days of superpower are gone. We are moving towards global metropolis.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by ooninay 

My personal theory about people who dislike "Americans", based entirely on observation--not any kind of controlled study or reading--is that what they really dislike is a certain stereotype of Americans, namely the arrogant, unsophisticated, unworldly, usually-Republican, "Christian", opinionated, anti-evolution, sexually repressed yet sexually obsessed, talks-loudly-in-restaurants type. Most Americans I've met are as repelled by that type of person as anyone else is.

The problem is, out of a pool of 300 million people you just described 4/5 of them.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Let's get it straight...

Europe doesn't dislike America.
European lefties dislike America.

Still not correct...

Some parts of European left leaning societies don't like parts of the Bush Administration.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Still not correct...

Some parts of European left leaning societies don't like parts of the Bush Administration.

still not correct:

Most rational, intelligent, and sober members of the human race dislike the Bush Administration.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by osiris 

still not correct:

Most rational, intelligent, and sober members of the human race dislike the Bush Administration.

True. At this point, the Bush administration does not have a whole lot of friends. They're becoming relatively rare even among American conservatives.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Let's get it straight...

Europe doesn't dislike America.
European lefties dislike America.

Nah. I'm a leftie and I like America - one of the many reasons* why I live in Canada and not in the UK anymore. It's a great country, it just currently happens to be governed by people who's political stance I disagree with.

*Both Chicago and NYC, two of my favourite cities on this planet, are less than a day's drive away.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I agree, and what this stereotype represents...

Originally Posted by ooninay
My personal theory about people who dislike "Americans", based entirely on observation--not any kind of controlled study or reading--is that what they really dislike is a certain stereotype of Americans, namely the arrogant, unsophisticated, unworldly, usually-Republican, "Christian", opinionated, anti-evolution, sexually repressed yet sexually obsessed, talks-loudly-in-restaurants type. Most Americans I've met are as repelled by that type of person as anyone else is.

And this shows how truly dispicable these people really are.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1

[Sky Captain]

I lived in Europe.(Germany, Belgium)
I met all kinds.
Mostly pretty nice folks.
A few ********s, just like here.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Nah. I'm a leftie and I like America

Nah. You're not a proper leftie, since you own your own business.

[Mastrap]

Interesting point there. Can you be a leftie and an entrepreneur at the same time? I think I am, but what do I know?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Interesting point there. Can you be a leftie and an entrepreneur at the same time? I think I am, but what do I know?

I guess you can have leftie sympathies. But I'm reasonably sure you can't be a proper leftie unless you want to overthrow your boss... ...and since you're the boss...

I dunno. Grab a mirror and see if you start shouting "capitaleest peeg dog!" at it.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Interesting point there. Can you be a leftie and an entrepreneur at the same time? I think I am, but what do I know?

You are what is called in Iceland a "red-wine commie". You participate in the capitalistic society today without much or any complaint, but when you sit down among friends and talk about the situation your left-leaning or even revolutionistic opinions are un-earthed.

These are quickly put on hold the next capitalistic day.

i.e. you are a normal person.

V

[osiris]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You are what is called in Iceland a "red-wine commie". You participate in the capitalistic society today without much or any complaint, but when you sit down among friends and talk about the situation your left-leaning or even revolutionistic opinions are un-earthed.

These are quickly put on hold the next capitalistic day.

i.e. you are a normal person.

V

'red-wine commie'

[Sky Captain]

There was a bit of anti-American armed forces sentiment in Germany when I was there.
Mostly remove the nuke hardware there protests and stuff.
Though I did remind one young fella that he was speaking German instead of Russian.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

There was a bit of anti-American armed forces sentiment in Germany when I was there.
Mostly remove the nuke hardware there protests and stuff.
Though I did remind one young fella that he was speaking German instead of Russian.

Maybe the whole "you should love us, damnit, because look at all the stuff we've done for you, you ungrateful bastards" thing is a part of the problem?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

There was a bit of anti-American armed forces sentiment in Germany when I was there.
Mostly remove the nuke hardware there protests and stuff.
Though I did remind one young fella that he was speaking German instead of Russian.

"anti-American armed forces" does not equal "anti-American". I hope you can appreciate the difference. Unless of course I'm misunderstanding something and America is in fact just armed forces.

V

[Sky Captain]

You would have had to have been there to hear the whole rash of crap spouted by the young 'rad.
I just reminded him why we were still there. *shrug*.

Paris was less than friendly(Then again all I could speak was German and English. When English didn't work, I tried German), but the rural countryside was very warm to Americans.
Belgium. How can I describe Belgium. I think the whole country was drunk while I was there.
Friendly but tipsy.

Ahhh Holland. Amsterdam. The city where the teenage girls were passed out in their own puke on the sidewalks. I've never seen anything like it.

At least they aren't killing each other like here.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Grab a mirror and see if you start shouting "capitaleest peeg dog!" at it.

I zapped a spot. Does that count?

[ApeInTheShell]

Of course they should dislike America. Afterall, we took their spot as top dog. The dollar is becoming the new world currency and the United States of America has a better equipped military force. They had thousands of years to conquer and establish colonies and become the super power. They are just mad one of their 'colonies' turned out to be the next super power.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by ApeInTheShell 

Of course they should dislike America. Afterall, we took their spot as top dog. The dollar is becoming the new world currency and the United States of America has a better equipped military force. They had thousands of years to conquer and establish colonies and become the super power. They are just mad one of their 'colonies' turned out to be the next super power.

You should include sarcasm tags. For some people it would be hard to see the joke without them. The absurd claims and the blatant stereotypic gives it away of course, but still. To be safe.

V

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by ApeInTheShell 

They had thousands of years to conquer and establish colonies and become the super power. They are just mad one of their 'colonies' turned out to be the next super power.

Note: This view does not represent typical Americans.

At least not rational ones.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by ApeInTheShell 

Afterall, we took their spot as top dog. The dollar is becoming the new world currency

EEEP! Wrong. "Sorry", but 2006 the Euro surpassed the Dollar as number one currency...

PB.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

You would have had to have been there to hear the whole rash of crap spouted by the young 'rad.
I just reminded him why we were still there. *shrug*.

In '84, people were acutely becoming aware of the fact that the Cold War had been fought by proxy only - meaning that of the many dead over the decades, most of them had NOT been Americans or Russians. And at a time when we already had a several-dozen-fold overkill potential, the USSR stationing a large part of their armed forces in the GDR, and Reagan stationing Pershing II nuclear missiles in West Germany did much to enforce the idea that Central Europe was being set up as a prime target.

Hence the peace movement and greens joining up and actually becoming a parliamentary political force from the mid-80s onwards.

[Sky Captain]

But Russia never pushed into Western Europe.
In fact Russia went bankrupt over it.

[analogika]

Hindsight twenty years after the fact is a lot nicer than having 9,000 nuclear warheads and several thousand tanks pointed at your home town while some *moron* cowboy tells you that putting another few thousand right where you live, pointing back, is going to make you a lot safer.

I think an awful lot of the problems Americans have with the rest of the world stem from the fact that the American population has never experienced modern warfare on their own land.

The readiness to risk the death of tens of thousands of people in far-away lands seems positively obscene to many of my countrymen, for reasons not too hard to understand.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Hindsight twenty years after the fact is a lot nicer than having 9,000 nuclear warheads and several thousand tanks pointed at your home town while some *moron* cowboy tells you that putting another few thousand right where you live, pointing back, is going to make you a lot safer.

I think an awful lot of the problems Americans have with the rest of the world stem from the fact that the American population has never experienced modern warfare on their own land.

The readiness to risk the death of tens of thousands of people in far-away lands seems positively obscene to many of my countrymen, for reasons not too hard to understand.

Sorry, what country would that be?

[zaghahzag]

but we had 9/11.. our 3000 dead is almost as bad as the 20 million who died in Russia.

We've experienced modern warfare - it closed our stock market for a day!

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Hindsight twenty years after the fact is a lot nicer than having 9,000 nuclear warheads and several thousand tanks pointed at your home town while some *moron* cowboy tells you that putting another few thousand right where you live, pointing back, is going to make you a lot safer.

I think an awful lot of the problems Americans have with the rest of the world stem from the fact that the American population has never experienced modern warfare on their own land.

The readiness to risk the death of tens of thousands of people in far-away lands seems positively obscene to many of my countrymen, for reasons not too hard to understand.

Warheads are on the end of missles. The United States was vulnerable too. Modernizing your defense while offering mutual disarmament appears to have been a winning strategy. Why no criticism of the Soviet threat? Because they had no cowboys or because you were sympathetic to their Iron Curtain policy?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by zaghahzag 

but we had 9/11.. our 3000 dead is almost as bad as the 20 million who died in Russia.

We've experienced modern warfare - it closed our stock market for a day!

Indeed.

[Macrobat]

Um, we also didn't start the only two World Wars in the history of the planet, not to mention that Europe is the single most fought-over piece of real estate in history.

Remind me again - who was that doing all that fighting? Oh yeah, Europeans.

Not to mention that the "hated" Americans were the ones who had to come and bail your asses out of both of them.

Save the sermons. Anyone else see the irony in a German preaching this? lol

The primary reason America hasn't "experienced modern warfare on our own soil" is that we don't covet our neighbors' land and possessions. Unlike certain other countries.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Orion27 

Warheads are on the end of missles. The United States was vulnerable too. Modernizing your defense while offering mutual disarmament appears to have been a winning strategy. Why no criticism of the Soviet threat? Because they had no cowboys or because you were sympathetic to their Iron Curtain policy?

I was responding to Sky Cap'n's comment about antipathy he experienced as a US soldier in Germany in 1984.

Who the **** was talking about Iron Curtain policy or sympathies for the Warsaw Pact?

The United States and USSR were THREE kilometers apart at their closest part (Alaska - Siberia), yet everything was set up for a military confrontation right in the heart of Europe. Even if it had not gone nuclear, Europe would have been a huge smouldering hole, much like many of its major cities were after 1945.

[Macrobat]

Not to quibble, but the reason everything was set up in Europe is because THAT'S where all the fighting had historically taken place and where the Cold War was at its warmest, with Soviets attempting further incursions - especially in Germany - every single day.

See, they weren't trying to invade Alaska (BTW - Alaska is QUITE heavily armed, as well). Not to mention the three kilometers you mention only gets them to the furthest out of the Aleutians. lmao

FAR easier to project force on the MASSIVE front Europe represented, simply by driving across in tanks, BMPs, etc. than to attempt a water-borne invasion against the most powerful Navy on the planet, backed by everything the Americans (and Canadians) would have thrown at their invasion fleet.

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I was responding to Sky Cap'n's comment about antipathy he experienced as a US soldier in Germany in 1984.

Who the **** was talking about Iron Curtain policy or sympathies for the Warsaw Pact?

The United States and USSR were THREE kilometers apart at their closest part (Alaska - Siberia), yet everything was set up for a military confrontation right in the heart of Europe. Even if it had not gone nuclear, Europe would have been a huge smouldering hole, much like many of its major cities were after 1945.

Thanks to the soviets, no worries now right?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

Um, we also didn't start the only two World Wars in the history of the planet, not to mention that Europe is the single most fought-over piece of real estate in history.

Remind me again - who was that doing all that fighting? Oh yeah, Europeans.

Not to mention that the "hated" Americans were the ones who had to come and bail your asses out of both of them.

And that attitude is the other reason people think some of you are assholes.

You see friends do stupid things or things that cause you serious distress. You call them on it, and all you get is the 20 thousandth reminder of how their daddy saved your ass from a bully back in kindergarten. Don't expect that argumentation to be taken seriously, although I think it's been made abundantly clear that Germans (and Europeans in general) know full well how much we owe to that previous generation of Americans.

I'm pretty sure you had absolutely zilch to do with that.

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

The primary reason America hasn't "experienced modern warfare on our own soil" is that we don't covet our neighbors' land and possessions. Unlike certain other countries.

Boy, ain't Iraq, Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Panama (and god knows who else in the near future) glad NOT to be your neighbors, eh? They'd REALLY be in trouble then, eh?

[Orion27]

Originally Posted by analogika 

And that attitude is the other reason people think some of you are assholes.

You see friends do stupid things or things that cause you serious distress. You call them on it, and all you get is the 20 thousandth reminder of how their daddy saved your ass from a bully back in kindergarten. Don't expect that argumentation to be taken seriously, although I think it's been made abundantly clear that Germans (and Europeans in general) know full well how much we owe to that previous generation of Americans.

I'm pretty sure you had absolutely zilch to do with that.


Boy, ain't Iraq, Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea, Panama (and god knows who else in the near future) glad NOT to be your neighbors, eh? They'd REALLY be in trouble then, eh?

Yes, our neighbors are having a real problem with us. We don't even know Canada exists, which is alright by them, since they have no defense budget. And Mexico, well we have a lot of Mexicans clamoring for US citizenship right now.