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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > GUI Customization > My Frustrations with SS

My Frustrations with SS
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Fellow2000
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Nov 29, 2003, 04:55 AM
 
I'm sorry, but I am just getting sick of this application. It was all hyped up to be the best thing this year. With all the top themers on board, how could it not be? I will answer that.

#1 - The memory leaks. I mean seriously, this is an issue that should have been corrected before release.

#2 - The many incompatible programs. The last thing I want to do is test all my applications to see which ones crash so I can add them to some exclude list.

#3 - It doesn't theme everything. We used to have login screens, shut down dialogs and boot screens, now what do we have? A very inconsistent GUI.

This is not meant to be rude. But seriously this application has been nothing but trouble. And for what? All in the name of safer theming? Give me a break. Themeing was safe before as long as you took the neccesary precautions. With SS I lost 1 page worth of a paper in a word document because it caused it to crash. Is that what we call safe now days? Sure it is my responsibility to backup, but there has to be a line somewhere. Some of these issues will supposedly be fixed with upcoming new releases and some will never be fixed. I'm sorry, but I liked changing my system files. I liked knowing that all I was doing was replacing files, knowing that the OS would run the same way, it would just get different info than before when it asked for it. Now all we have is nothing but workarounds.

Am I the only one with this frustration? Does anyone else miss the nice consistant GUI?

I remember my first time getting a Mac. I installed Jaguar. And the first time I installed a theme I was blown away. When the computer restarted, the boot screen changed. Everything had changed. It was a THEME! Now, it is a "guikit" aka some parts done some not.

And now all of our wonderful artists have switched to making this new format, all for what? A couple of dollars? I will pay Swiz and Max personally twice what Unsanity paid them to switch back and bring themeing on OS X back to where it should be.

Unsanity, your app sux, plain and simple. I don't mean to be harsh, but really.

     
iOliverC
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Nov 29, 2003, 05:46 AM
 
I agree with you in some cases. But you cannot say the app sucks just because of your one bad experience with it.

I must admit though, I did like it when it themed everything, and I agree 1.0 isn't the greatest theme tool ever. But I am sure something like 2.0 (with all the BBX themes hopefully) will be great.
     
Vi0
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Nov 29, 2003, 05:53 AM
 
ShapeShifter is a huge framework hack by part time third party developers affecting nearly your entire system and its subsystems in complex ways. How is this safer and more desirable than modifiying a few system files and images again?

I'm all for theming but I am disappointed that a fast, effective, and simpler open source solution has been replaced by a buggy, extremely complex, and potentially hazardous for-profit application.
     
Lefo
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Vi0:
ShapeShifter is a huge framework hack by part time third party developers affecting nearly your entire system and its subsystems in complex ways. How is this safer and more desirable than modifiying a few system files and images again?

I'm all for theming but I am disappointed that a fast, effective, and simpler open source solution has been replaced by a buggy, extremely complex, and potentially hazardous for-profit application.
Though I'm not against a for-profit scenario, I have to agree that there was an incredible jump on the bandwagon to try to fix what wasn't really broke. ThemeChanger and the Aqua Restore files that themers made more than worked for me, and it was more comforting to know that I didn't need to have something running in the background ala Kaleidoscope to get a good look on the ol' Mac.

I won't be using SS no matter how many bugs they squash, and I really don't care if I'm told that I'm 'stuck in the past' with the way I want to theme my Mac. I'll support themers who use the ThemeChanger file format and who care to modify their files as the Mac OS gets updated.

I wish the SS theme artists all the best, but I eagerly look forward to the day when equally inspired and talented people show up to fill the vacuum the SS artists left us with.

Lefo
     
Seion
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:10 AM
 
#1 - The memory leaks. I mean seriously, this is an issue that should have been corrected before release.

#2 - The many incompatible programs. The last thing I want to do is test all my applications to see which ones crash so I can add them to some exclude list.

#3 - It doesn't theme everything. We used to have login screens, shut down dialogs and boot screens, now what do we have? A very inconsistent GUI.
*sigh* alright here's my rebuttal:

1. I agree with you that these memory leak issues should have been caught during testing and before release; however, things slip. Anyone who has ever programmed an application for any computer knows this. You can't possibly catch everything before you release an application. That's what updates are for. At least they acknowledge the issue and are working to fix it, unlike some people *cough*M$*cough* that deny their software's issues...

2. You try programming an all encompassing framework that affects all running applications. It's hard. There's also the fact that not all programmers follow the guidelines for programming in Carbon and Cocoa. In a perfect world, everyone would follow all the programming rules and make programs whose code is consistent across the board; unfortunately this doesn't happen. Hell, I don't even follow all the guidelines when programming my own applications and webpages. With all these differences in programs, once can't predict exactly how one's framework will affect all of them - it's simply impossible. You can only hope to fix imcompatibilities with specific applications (out of thousands that exist) as they come up and one is made aware of them. Again, it is humanly impossible to test compatibility with everything before release... One would never release anything.

3. To answer this, I offer Smeger's own reply on another thread:

The items that can't be themed by ShapeShifter are drawn by a root-owned process. ShapeShifter won't theme these because to do so introduces both stability and security risks. You would no longer be able to use the <shift> key trick; instead, you'd need to reinstall your OS if something went catastrophically wrong.

I won't say that these items will never be themable with ShapeShifter, but it's pretty unlikely because I don't see a way to do it safely and securely.
Please remember, it takes an exhausting amount of work to make an application of this scope. As a fellow programmer, I can definitely understand the many difficulties that Smeger and his team have had to deal with in making ShapeShifter a reality.
Normal People Worry Me.
     
bOOzo
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:24 AM
 
#1 and #2 will be fixed with SS 1.0.1.
#2 is because you use a theme that had to be auto updated and a bug in that update systems overlooks the layo or tdat which causes carbon apps to crash.
#3 Is a tradeoff IMO.

But I mean c'mon, without SS OS X theming would come to a halt because themes got so crippled with Panther. And sure there are bound to be some bugs, but they are already being worked out.
     
chambone
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Nov 29, 2003, 07:20 AM
 
Well, just to voice my opinion..
I can see where some of you long time themers are coming from, but let's look at this from another perspective (mine for example).

I have never even considered theming in the 3 years that I use a Mac, even though it was free, for the simple reason that I cannot really afford to mess up. Unless I backup daily, which I don't.
I suspect, but I can't be sure, that there are many people who feel the same.

Now that SS is out theming suddenly got my attention. I might even start making my own. The way I see it, this app makes it extremely easy to modify the look of your OS (as opposed to the hassle it was). For a first release they did a very good job IMO. It'll only get better as bugs will be squashed.
Shutdown, boot, login? Who cares? I only reboot when Apple makes me.

I realize one might argue that Unsanity is monopolizing the theming scene. I see it differently; they have provided the first theming solution for Mac OS X. The only drawback I can come up with is that we now have more theme file formats instead of less. Not an issue if you use SS only.

I got my key today and I'm confident that I won't regret it.

These are of course just my personal views.

I'll stop rambling now
     
bbxstudio
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Nov 29, 2003, 11:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:
And now all of our wonderful artists have switched to making this new format, all for what? A couple of dollars?
To assume and then assert that anybody was paid-off by Unsanity (how much would they have to pay to get everybody to not only port all of their existing work to SS but only release for SS from here on in?) is just a grossly ignorant assumption... the reasons all of the themers involved have decided to support SS is that it makes panther themes possible (beyond the same-old Aqua mods), relieves themers of support issues, introduces powerful new capabilities and design flexibility, is tightly-integrated with our favorite theme tools, the list goes on and on.

If you want to stick with older themes that work with themechanger go right ahead - but expect to be unable to use 80-100% of the themes coming out from here on in. With the themers most potential themers look to for their learning and information all supporting SS and wave after wave of new design capabilities only possible under SS, non-SS themes will quickly become a thing of the past. This is the price we pay for progress - and it is progress.
     
cloudaj
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Nov 29, 2003, 12:18 PM
 
i dont see how the boot panels and such can't still be offered. ShapeShifter may not be able to theme them, but why cant the individual theme developers offer them in a seperate download, with a tagline of "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK" or the like? Then those that want the complete theme experience can have it, and those that wish to remain "safe" can also do so?
     
dws
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Nov 29, 2003, 12:23 PM
 
I agree with chambone...

I thoroughly reviewed the issue of themes prior to SS and gave it a pass.

I work on my computer. It's not a toy that I can allow to become unstable simply because Apple updates the OS; which breaks themes (and heaven help you if you didn't restore Aqua prior to installing the update). If you turn SS off, it's really off! It does not hack the system.

I have experienced none of the memory leaks that a couple people have complained about.

The only issue that seems to need working on is that WindowServer & SystemUIServer calls appear to suffer from some sort of inefficiency. One of the reasons Safari is so fast is because it has been coded to hog these services. When you add APE & SS to the mix, the result can be unfortunate. This is especially true on older computers that do no use Quartz Extreme and have smaller processors. Processor use can go through the roof; leading to problems with system responsiveness. If I'm going to be doing heavy surfing, I simply exclude Safari. It's not a big deal.

Bugs happen. If you waited to squash every possible bug (taking into account all the screwy things people do with their computers) then you would never release software. I think that it is terribly unfortunate (though predictable) that a few vociferously-vocal people would attempt to spread FUD about SS 1.0.

I encourage the good people at Unsanity to take their time with 1.0.1 and make it as good as they can. Who cares if another week or two passes. Don't let the vocal minority rush you. Take a break. Go have a beer, or a toke (or a meditation, if chemicals aren't your thing!). Enjoy the weekend.

The bottom line is that SS works very nicely (for a version 1.0 program) on systems that had not been previously hacked.

Enough... I want to get back to working on my new theme......
     
Kujo
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Nov 29, 2003, 12:47 PM
 
my only frustration is this app is not worth paying for yet, which sucks b/c that will be the only way i can use some themes.

I'm not ready to pay for something that doesnt work right, even if i am confident that one day it will.
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Nov 29, 2003, 01:21 PM
 
Originally posted by bOOzo:
#1 and #2 will be fixed with SS 1.0.1.
#2 is because you use a theme that had to be auto updated and a bug in that update systems overlooks the layo or tdat which causes carbon apps to crash.
#3 Is a tradeoff IMO.

But I mean c'mon, without SS OS X theming would come to a halt because themes got so crippled with Panther. And sure there are bound to be some bugs, but they are already being worked out.
Max, what if a framework was written to simply fix the issues that came out with Panther, such as the titlebar corner shadows? Would you then consider going back to a more consistent form? Or are the other "advantages" of SS still worth it?
     
bbxstudio
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Nov 29, 2003, 01:39 PM
 
Originally posted by cloudaj:
i dont see how the boot panels and such can't still be offered. ShapeShifter may not be able to theme them, but why cant the individual theme developers offer them in a seperate download, with a tagline of "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK" or the like? Then those that want the complete theme experience can have it, and those that wish to remain "safe" can also do so?
That's what I'm probably going to do.
     
cloudaj
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Nov 29, 2003, 01:48 PM
 
::hugs bbx::

     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Nov 29, 2003, 01:52 PM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
That's what I'm probably going to do.
That would be amazing bbx!

A simple solution to the problem. We could probably get someone to write a simple tutorial about how to convert SS themes to dlta and then incorporate the boot panels and such. A simple 'use at your own risk' statement and we have best of both worlds.
     
TheDisaster
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Nov 29, 2003, 01:59 PM
 
The boot images can be distributed as the images to be used with one of those boot image switchers, that's not really a huge deal. I like that idea.
|wishing is for suckers|
     
olorin15
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Nov 29, 2003, 02:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Lefo:
Though I'm not against a for-profit scenario, I have to agree that there was an incredible jump on the bandwagon to try to fix what wasn't really broke. ThemeChanger and the Aqua Restore files that themers made more than worked for me, and it was more comforting to know that I didn't need to have something running in the background ala Kaleidoscope to get a good look on the ol' Mac.
If you call having to revert to Aqua everytime you want to switch themes, then having to restart, and then finding that your icons have been all messed up by TC because of some theme partially replacing your Aqua backup, and thus having to go thru deleting the TC backup, going back to Aqua, restarting TC, changin your theme again, then applying icons with CandyBar and hoping it will work this time - if you call doing all this "somehthing that wasn't really broke", then we have a fundamentally different idea of broke ... I thought TC was a huge pain in the @$$. It never worked right for me (the icons issue came back over and over again), and having to restart all the freaking time drove me insane. If all that woked for you, sorry, do it your way.
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Nov 29, 2003, 02:06 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
If you call having to revert to Aqua everytime you want to switch themes, then having to restart, and then finding that your icons have been all messed up by TC because of some theme partially replacing your Aqua backup, and thus having to go thru deleting the TC backup, going back to Aqua, restarting TC, changin your theme again, then applying icons with CandyBar and hoping it will work this time - if you call doing all this "somehthing that wasn't really broke", then we have a fundamentally different idea of broke ... I thought TC was a huge pain in the @$$. It never worked right for me (the icons issue came back over and over again), and having to restart all the freaking time drove me insane. If all that woked for you, sorry, do it your way.
Ummm..... what kind of computer were you using? I opened themechanger, clicked on the theme, clicked apply, logout and and back in. Done. Hmmm.... sounds the same as SS.

Lol, your computer must be plagued or something. Sure you weren't trying to use themechanger on Windows? You know that program is for OS X right?
     
cloudaj
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Nov 29, 2003, 02:17 PM
 
you need to stop with the personal examples as evidence. Just because the program worked perfectly for you doesn't mean it worked for everyone, and just because TC broke your machine doesn't mean it broke everyones.
     
mrtew
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Nov 29, 2003, 02:29 PM
 
Originally posted by dws:
...Apple updates the OS; which breaks themes (and heaven help you if you didn't restore Aqua prior to installing the update).
It never caused any problems to update without reverting to aqua. (aside from having things a little mismatched sometimes). The problem came from applying old themes immediately after an update.

Originally posted by dws:
The bottom line is that SS works very nicely (for a version 1.0 program) on systems that had not been previously hacked.
My system has been hacked in every which way and SS still works fine for me! (for a version 1.0 program).
( Last edited by mrtew; Nov 29, 2003 at 08:43 PM. )

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
quandarry
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Nov 29, 2003, 02:54 PM
 
shapeshifter is a flawed application still very much in alpha.
it was release in a hurry for reasons, it is not 1.0 quality.
at the moment there is no reason to use it or buy it.
theme size is not reduced significantly...just go to user/library/caches/shapeshifter/mods.
get info on the mods folder.
for those inclined you can instal a theme and then use themepark to create a dlta theme.

my 2 cents.
( Last edited by quandarry; Dec 1, 2003 at 05:01 AM. )
     
olorin15
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Nov 29, 2003, 02:56 PM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:
Ummm..... what kind of computer were you using? I opened themechanger, clicked on the theme, clicked apply, logout and and back in. Done. Hmmm.... sounds the same as SS.

Lol, your computer must be plagued or something. Sure you weren't trying to use themechanger on Windows? You know that program is for OS X right?
Very funny Fellow ... if you are such a computer genuis, then maybe you should know that software runs on this thing called hardware , which is different on different computers, which causes precompiled software to run differently. rings a bell? maybe not ... well, either way, I agree with others who have said that TC may work fine for you, but fail for me. Software comes precompiled, so that's natural. We have different layouts, different software besides TC installed ... if we were running Gentoo Linux, we probably would not have these issues but on a Mac, they are unavoidable. Nevermind, the point is TC did not always work fine for everyone. Neither does SS i guess. So use TC if you want, but the big difference here is that SS will evolve, while TC will stay as is. So TC issues will NEVER get fixed, while SS issues hopefully mostly will.
     
NetworkShadow
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Nov 29, 2003, 03:02 PM
 
Oh boy more bitching about SS... this is getting really old.
click one
     
chambone
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Nov 29, 2003, 03:24 PM
 
Yeah, must be the 20 bucks. Surely it's not about the regular theme makers converting to .guikit now. I mean, who the hell can blame them?
( Last edited by chambone; Nov 29, 2003 at 03:30 PM. )
     
Wickedkitten
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Nov 29, 2003, 03:49 PM
 
Originally posted by cloudaj:
you need to stop with the personal examples as evidence. Just because the program worked perfectly for you doesn't mean it worked for everyone, and just because TC broke your machine doesn't mean it broke everyones.
everyone needs to stop with the personal examples as evidence. Just because the program didn't work for you, that doesn't mean it didn't work for everyone. Plus just because SS doesn't work on your machine doesn't mean it doesnt work on everyones.



see what I did there?
     
cloudaj
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Nov 29, 2003, 03:54 PM
 
you restated my point (except i didnt drag it out for every program out there)

in all serious I did mean that in a "global" sense.
     
NetworkShadow
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Nov 29, 2003, 05:09 PM
 
It's v1.0, it's being worked on... Now cool it and just post your problems as bug reports and not Shape Shifter rants.

click one
     
G0Ducks
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:30 PM
 
Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
It's v1.0, it's being worked on... Now cool it and just post your problems as bug reports and not Shape Shifter rants.

Around every corner awaits the fearless "Network Shadow!"
All wait in fear as they voice their opinions about software! OOoOoo, can you feel the true annoyance?

Give it a rest ey laddie? We know you like the program...
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:41 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
Very funny Fellow ... if you are such a computer genuis, then maybe you should know that software runs on this thing called hardware , which is different on different computers, which causes precompiled software to run differently. rings a bell? maybe not ... well, either way, I agree with others who have said that TC may work fine for you, but fail for me. Software comes precompiled, so that's natural. We have different layouts, different software besides TC installed ... if we were running Gentoo Linux, we probably would not have these issues but on a Mac, they are unavoidable. Nevermind, the point is TC did not always work fine for everyone. Neither does SS i guess. So use TC if you want, but the big difference here is that SS will evolve, while TC will stay as is. So TC issues will NEVER get fixed, while SS issues hopefully mostly will.
Whoa there. Just havin' a little fun I understand you had a bad experience with the program, it just seemed VERY dramatic the way you put it. I would love to see SS evolve to a great program, but like many people have said, it is not 1.0 quality. Also the inconsistent GUI bugs me still.

Originally posted by Network Shadow:
Oh boy more bitching about SS... this is getting really old.
So are your posts
     
Roderick
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:52 PM
 
I've always hacked the system myself. I've never used any theme changers.

That way I can mix elements from many themes and my own graphics and get my own personalized interface. And in three years, I've never been worried about not being able to customize my interface. Now I am.

If themers switch to guiKit, how am I going to do this from now on? Call me vain, but I just care about *me*, *me*, and ... *ME*.

Please, give us, the geeks, the chance to do things for ourselves. Keep the "use at your own risk" option alive. The vast majority of users and preachers of safety can use any application they want, but what gives them the right to prevent us from messing with OUR system and say "it's for the good of people who don't want risks".

And yes, I could make my own themes, but I can see ThemePark exporting only guiKits soon, as well... That'd be just peachy, eh?

If SS at least was better than anything out there, fine. But it's not. That is a fact. It's a long way from being better than any installer from Iza, just to name one. Which are just as safe, too. And do not require any system resources to work when installed. Replacing an Extras.rsrc file or a graphic in the login window is even easier if you know what you're doing. And many people do. And if not many, I do. Haven't had a problem in years. Let me keep at it, if you will.

Sigh.

2 cents.
     
NetworkShadow
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Nov 29, 2003, 06:57 PM
 
Originally posted by G0Ducks:
Around every corner awaits the fearless "Network Shadow!"
All wait in fear as they voice their opinions about software! OOoOoo, can you feel the true annoyance?

Give it a rest ey laddie? We know you like the program...
Ya very funny.
Hay I've just posted in reply to a few of the SS rant topics.

Yes I do like the software, SS is great. There has to be a counter point to everyone's negitive feedback anyway.

I just want to know why everyone is marking it off as bad, or unusable so quicky. Because it's $20?

Oh well I'll drop it. And before you write it off as crap, take into account that many people are having no problems with it and are enjoying it a lot.
( Last edited by NetworkShadow; Nov 29, 2003 at 07:24 PM. )
click one
     
Rosyna
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Nov 29, 2003, 07:21 PM
 
Originally posted by mrtew:
It never caused any problems to update without reverting to aqua. (aside from having things a little mismatched sometimes). The problem came from applying old themes immediately after an update.

The bottom line is that SS works very nicely (for a version 1.0 program) on systems that had not been previously hacked.


My system has been hacked in every which way and SS still works fine for me! (for a version 1.0 program).
[/QUOTE]

Or Applying an update, Ignoring the request to restart, then changing the current theme (thus overwriting the new theme file in the new format with the old one), Then rebooting eventually.
     
fireside
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Nov 29, 2003, 09:13 PM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
non-SS themes will quickly become a thing of the past. This is the price we pay for progress - and it is progress.
no, thats the price we pay for a monopoly.

and network shadow, just quit saying everyone is complaining about ShapeShifter just because its $20 bucks. just because people complain about an app, doesnt mean they dont like paying for it. hell, even if ss was a freeware application, i would be ranting about it. the point is, its a shareware application, and it has to live up to its name. im just pissed because Unsanity is going to have a complete monopoly over practically all theming on mac os x. and since when have monopolies been good?
     
Sage
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Nov 29, 2003, 09:35 PM
 
Originally posted by fireside:
and since when have monopolies been good?
Well, Apple has a monopoly on its own OS (since only their hardware can run it), and that's proven pretty good, right?
     
dws
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Nov 29, 2003, 09:51 PM
 
fireside, what monopoly are you talking about?

Building a better mousetrap does not a monopolist make. It's just a better mousetrap!

If you feel so strongly that SS is a bad thing, then you are perfectly free to code your own application that will accomplish anything you wish it to. Bring on the competition. There's nothing stopping you.

The reason that so many of the major themers are going the way of ShapeShifter's guiKit is because it is a great theming platform. Period.

I imagine that you chose the word "monopolist" because it has such a negative connotation, but your manipulative word simply doesn't fit the situation.

It's just a better mousetrap!
     
cloudaj
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Nov 29, 2003, 10:07 PM
 
if you go and find a way to get themes working the way themers want them to work I am sure they would support it. But thats not the case, right now no one else has a solution to the theming problems introduced by panther. So is it a monopoly? Right now it is, by definition, a monopoly. But its not a monopoly because they are doing underhanded things to force away the competition, they are a monopoly because no one else is offering a solution.

Would you call the MLB a monopoly just because there are no other baseball leagues?
(possibly a bad example but hopefully the point gets through)
     
olorin15
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Nov 29, 2003, 10:59 PM
 
With all the discussions on Monolith having recently hit these forums, one would think the word monopoly is compeletely misleading in this situation ... Unsanity came out with SS AFTER Monolith was announced here. So in a way, you could say SS is the competition to Monolith, it just so happens that the other is taking a bit longer to arrive. So stop complaining about monopoly in themeing market - it is NOT the case. It is true that TC is not the competition to SS since it's so limited by Panther now. But that does not mean someone can write a new themer. Unsanity just proved it can be done. Now the market is wide open for new competition.
     
Bit Density
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Nov 30, 2003, 02:22 AM
 
Originally posted by cloudaj:
Would you call the MLB a monopoly just because there are no other baseball leagues?
(possibly a bad example but hopefully the point gets through)
You are right, you did pick the possiibly worst example. The Federal Government has given a unique case of Anti-Trust protection to MLB that is not available to any other institution in the US. They are not a monopoly because other leagues don't exist. They are a monopoly because legally they are one.

But yes, your point is valid... And actually there is nothing illegal, or immoral about monopolies per se. There is, however, bad things, illegal and immoral, that only monopolies have the opportunity to do.
     
fireside
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Nov 30, 2003, 03:14 AM
 
since SS is the ONLY application that can support guikit, they ARE a monopoly. and since basically every theme maker is switching to guikit, SS has a monopoly over mac theming. just because there MIGHT be different ways of theming in the future, doesnt mean its not a monopoly right now.

and using that Monolith arguement is bullcrap. just because it was "announced" before SS, doesnt mean it came before. i can announce that i'll make a radical change in the world, or find a cure in aids right now, but when another pharmaceuticals company releases a cure for aids before my company, which aids medicine would you buy? would you wait for my company to release my medicine, or pay the 20 bucks right now for the only medicine? yeah, you'd buy the one thats out right now. add the fact that my company has a bad reputation, and well, who do you really want to buy from? a company with an excellent reputation, and a product that works right now, or what another couple of months to buy the product from the company with a not so good reputation?

i love what Unsanity has done to theming on mac os x. i dont love that the only application to support guikit is SS. im sure you guys wouldnt like it if you could only use IE, or Office.

edit: by "monopoly" im talking about a monopoly on guikit. since this is becoming a theming standard, i dont feel that guikit should be a closed standard.
( Last edited by fireside; Nov 30, 2003 at 03:47 AM. )
     
Rosyna
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Nov 30, 2003, 04:15 AM
 
Originally posted by fireside:
since SS is the ONLY application that can support guikit, they ARE a monopoly. and since basically every theme maker is switching to guikit, SS has a monopoly over mac theming. just because there MIGHT be different ways of theming in the future, doesnt mean its not a monopoly right now.

and using that Monolith arguement is bullcrap. just because it was "announced" before SS, doesnt mean it came before. i can announce that i'll make a radical change in the world, or find a cure in aids right now, but when another pharmaceuticals company releases a cure for aids before my company, which aids medicine would you buy? would you wait for my company to release my medicine, or pay the 20 bucks right now for the only medicine? yeah, you'd buy the one thats out right now. add the fact that my company has a bad reputation, and well, who do you really want to buy from? a company with an excellent reputation, and a product that works right now, or what another couple of months to buy the product from the company with a not so good reputation?

i love what Unsanity has done to theming on mac os x. i dont love that the only application to support guikit is SS. im sure you guys wouldnt like it if you could only use IE, or Office.

edit: by "monopoly" im talking about a monopoly on guikit. since this is becoming a theming standard, i dont feel that guikit should be a closed standard.
But guiKit files can easily be converted to another format (dlta) and none of the features in a guiKit file (like custom text colors) work with other theme changers because Cocoa doesn't support it.

It'd be akin to calling HFS+ a monopoly because PCs cannot natively read it.
     
smic
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Nov 30, 2003, 04:35 AM
 
ok i decided to try out shapshifter this morning
bad [email protected] idea
installed it, installed the more recent APE
shapeshifter prefPane didnt show up, no biggy, unistalled it, installed again, added the newer GUIpod, and PowerMetal
picked out one theme to go with, said it was best to restart my mac, so i did, it would boot, then just give me a blue screen
restart again, in safe mode, same blue screen after it boots up
so went to single user mode, deleted the shapeShifter pane, prefs, application support, all that i could find, rebooted again, kernel panic, so reboot back into safe mode, it worked, uninstalled the APE, and now everything is fine

so i missed how this was "safer" to use then modifying the resources, i never had a problem with themes, even with panther i installed drawingBoardX theme, and swiz's studioPro before it went with the shapeShifter

just had to bitch, or warn, depending on how u take it
oh and i dont know if it was APE or shAPEshifter that caused problems since i never used APE before
w3rd..
surrey represent
     
bbxstudio
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Nov 30, 2003, 08:40 AM
 
Originally posted by quandarry:
for themers to update there themes for panther via shapeshifter only at this point of shapeshifter's development speeks loudly of callusion.

my 2 cents.
You're either delusional or misinformed... You also misspelled 'speak' and 'collusion' (and how anybody can seriously consider the technical assertions of somebody who can't even use a spell-checker, I'll never know)...

If you honestly think anybody is supporting SS because they were paid off, you're so far off base you're in the freaking parking lot. While I think it should be obvious by now, let me remind you that SS has given us Panther theming (which would have been limited to grayscale with hard-coded shadows and most existing themes usable in only an incompatible/broken state), the ability to change text colors for the first time (and much more still being hammered out by the mad scientists is coming), crazy-mad compression ratios (when a normally 8 MB theme spits out at less than a megabyte with no sacrifice in image quality - I guess I must be blinded by all the money Unsanity gave me, but to my mind that's called good compression), the ability to apply themes in memory - the list goes on. Anybody who doesn't see the benefits (both immediate and future) in all of this needs their head examined, seriously. Add to this the fact that themers no longer need to worry about support issues and it becomes painfully obvious that your allegations of 'callusion' are not only pure fiction - they speak loudly of ignorance.

Not worth the $20 yet? Fine, then don't buy... but running around slandering people by implying they were bribed is so NOT the way to go, dude.
     
cSurfr
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Nov 30, 2003, 09:02 AM
 
well, it seems to me that it's pretty simple. . . If you don't spend the 20.00 for this program you don't get to apply themes. . .I can live with that I guess since I don't use them. However, how long before the theme makers decide to start charging for the themes they have created too? Round and round it goes.
-How pumped would you be driving home from work, knowing someplace in your house there's a monkey you're gonna battle?
     
bbxstudio
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Nov 30, 2003, 09:12 AM
 
Originally posted by fireside:
edit: by "monopoly" im talking about a monopoly on guikit. since this is becoming a theming standard, i dont feel that guikit should be a closed standard.
Why the f*ck not? If Unsanity wants to invest the time and money required to develop an application, they're not only well within their rights to use a proprietary format - it's the smart thing to do. By owning the format, they're free to develop and enhance it as they see fit, maintain feature-parity with themepark (another 'monopoly' I'm surprised you're not bitching about), and ensure that it doesn't get tweaked/evolved in a way that compromises the stability/reliability of their application (thereby potentially slamming them with: unnecessary support incidents; compromised development cycles; a thousand additional nightmares).

Nobody is forcing you to buy SS. By screaming 'monopoly' and implying that what Unsanity is doing is wrong/unfare/immoral/etc. just displays a flagrant ignorance of the development/support/market realities involved.

Enlighten us Fireside - tell us precisely why Unsanity opening up a work-in-progress format would be a good thing for us all... please. Tell us why reverting to the slow-moving feudal hacker system would be beneficial to the platform. Tell us how we can go about properly theme Panther without SS. How we can change text colors globally. How long it would take somebody to write a freeware solution delivering the same capabilities with zero investment in terms of development dollars. Who would be responsible for support when things went wrong. How we would move beyond the miniscule steps in evolution that we've been saddled with up until now.

Sad. Sad. Sad.
( Last edited by bbxstudio; Nov 30, 2003 at 09:32 AM. )
     
bbxstudio
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Nov 30, 2003, 09:20 AM
 
Originally posted by cSurfr:
[BHowever, how long before the theme makers decide to start charging for the themes they have created too? Round and round it goes. [/B]
Who cares - unless they spit out themes polished and extensive enough to justify charging for who would buy them anyways? If however they're able to produce a product of high-enough quality that enough people like, then why on earth would charging $ for them be a problem? Assuming enough time and effort and talent has gone into it, there's no reason why they shouldn't seek funds to compensate them for their work and invest in continued development. This is all old-hat on the PC where commercially-produced themes are a common and profitable occurance. How is this any different from a developer producing and selling themes for iDVD or Keynote? It's not.
     
cSurfr
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Nov 30, 2003, 09:27 AM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Why the f*ck not? If Unsanity wants to invest the time and money required to develop an application, they're not only well within their rights to use a proprietary format - it's the smart thing to do.

Truncated because BBX Wrote a bible


I see your side of things, however if you see it the way some others do, theme changer made more sense. Yes, you took a risk with the system getting messed up, however, I have yet to see an app that didn't run with the theme applied, you did get boot screens (woop de doo). There are going to be up's and down's to everything that is new. I personally think that this program will either make or break theming on the mac. If bugs don't / can't get worked out then there won't be any themes in panther, simple as that. But just remember 10.0 was pretty horrid and look what we have now.

BBX, this isn't directed towards you, I just wanted to piggy back on your post..
-How pumped would you be driving home from work, knowing someplace in your house there's a monkey you're gonna battle?
     
cSurfr
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Nov 30, 2003, 09:30 AM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Who cares - unless they spit out themes polished and extensive enough to justify charging for who would buy them anyways? If however they're able to produce a product of high-enough quality that enough people like, then why on earth would charging $ for them be a problem? Assuming enough time and effort and talent has gone into it, there's no reason why they shouldn't seek funds to compensate them for their work and invest in continued development. This is all old-hat on the PC where commercially-produced themes are a common and profitable occurance. How is this any different from a developer producing and selling themes for iDVD or Keynote? It's not.
I think there would be a large problem if the developers decided to start charging for themes, especially since apple is very protective of it's property. Apple doesn't support themes in any way, and I would think if they find out people are charging for changes in their own code and calling it their own they might not be too happy about it.
-How pumped would you be driving home from work, knowing someplace in your house there's a monkey you're gonna battle?
     
bbxstudio
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Nov 30, 2003, 09:41 AM
 
Originally posted by cSurfr:
I think there would be a large problem if the developers decided to start charging for themes, especially since apple is very protective of it's property. Apple doesn't support themes in any way, and I would think if they find out people are charging for changes in their own code and calling it their own they might not be too happy about it.
SS changes the situation entirely. Apple's property remains untouched - as long as the theme in question is 100% unique in design and not derived from Apple's Aqua design and doesn't include any of Apple's existing graphics within, there would be no problem. If I design a theme for Shapeshifter and every single pixel within the theme was placed there by myself and not derived from Aqua, it is a unique design immune from Apple's lawyers - yes, the graphics will eventually be visually patched into Aqua's resource footprint, but they are not derived from Apple's graphics and not a single Apple resource is being manipulated/moved by the theme.
     
cloudaj
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Nov 30, 2003, 12:14 PM
 
Originally posted by Bit Density:
You are right, you did pick the possiibly worst example. The Federal Government has given a unique case of Anti-Trust protection to MLB that is not available to any other institution in the US. They are not a monopoly because other leagues don't exist. They are a monopoly because legally they are one.

But yes, your point is valid... And actually there is nothing illegal, or immoral about monopolies per se. There is, however, bad things, illegal and immoral, that only monopolies have the opportunity to do.
LOL! Wow, thats what I get for researching my examples that I come up with on a whim.

But yes, I understand that they have the opportunities to do illegal and immoral things, but thus far Unsanity hasn't and with Monolith coming, I don't think they have the opportunity to "pull a fast one".

The situation under which a monopoly would negatively affect the customers is when such an overwhelmingly large user-base uses their product, and there is no where else to turn. Unsanity's goal from the start has been to get more people involved with theming on OSX. So until Unsanity gets enough people on board with ShapeShifter where they are comfortable with saying "we dont care if we don't make another sale", then they really can't afford to not innovate or not make the customer experience better. And if it ever got to that point where so many people used themes, I think apple would be liable to just include its own theme option

What is your fear of Unsanity holding monopoly power in theming? What negative results do you think that would yield?

I also think its important to note that Unsanity really hasn't SAID that guikit is a closed format. They haven't released source yet, but that doesn't mean that they never will. In another thread on this board, smeger said he had no idea that so many people cared about open source formats, and that Unsanity would have to discuss this (or something to that nature).

I think that in the end this goes back to people just not wanting to pay the $20.00, and they think an open format will allow a free theme app to come along. Thats really not true, just because guikit is opensource doesn't mean that they couldn't charge for its implementation in other programs, or stipulate other conditions as to its use.
     
olorin15
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Nov 30, 2003, 02:28 PM
 
Originally posted by smic:
ok i decided to try out shapshifter this morning
bad [email protected] idea
installed it, installed the more recent APE
shapeshifter prefPane didnt show up, no biggy, unistalled it, installed again, added the newer GUIpod, and PowerMetal
picked out one theme to go with, said it was best to restart my mac, so i did, it would boot, then just give me a blue screen

...

just had to bitch, or warn, depending on how u take it
oh and i dont know if it was APE or shAPEshifter that caused problems since i never used APE before
You seem to be the ONLY one here who's had a case like that. I'd say there's something wrong with your hardware, which makes it incompatible with APE. Maybe you had too many other hacks applied in the past, which accumulated, making your system unstable. And APE was simply the trigger. It's hard to tell. But I'd bet that if you wiped your HD, reinstalled panther, and then used APE/SS, you'd be fine.

I personally had lots of hacks applied in the past - I deleted some before panther update, and left some others (including the whole APE framework), and I have no problems with SS ... So your case seems to be very special. Not APE/SS's fault - i'd say it's the combination of your hardware and third party software previously installed.

People have got to stop bitching about their individual woes! If something bad happened to your system , it does not mean it will happen on all others!!! It does not mean the product is faulty. It may simply mean your machine is messed up beyond hope and needs a clean start. Telling people to stop using SS or APE because there was something wrong with your personal computer setup (software/hardware) is nonsense. Others are using SS and are happy. You should instead submit bug reports. Or take your computer in for warranty repairs.
     
 
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