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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > GUI Customization > My Frustrations with SS

My Frustrations with SS (Page 2)
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NetworkShadow
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Nov 30, 2003, 03:02 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
You seem to be the ONLY one here who's had a case like that. I'd say there's something wrong with your hardware, which makes it incompatible with APE. Maybe you had too many other hacks applied in the past, which accumulated, making your system unstable. And APE was simply the trigger. It's hard to tell. But I'd bet that if you wiped your HD, reinstalled panther, and then used APE/SS, you'd be fine.

I personally had lots of hacks applied in the past - I deleted some before panther update, and left some others (including the whole APE framework), and I have no problems with SS ... So your case seems to be very special. Not APE/SS's fault - i'd say it's the combination of your hardware and third party software previously installed.

People have got to stop bitching about their individual woes! If something bad happened to your system , it does not mean it will happen on all others!!! It does not mean the product is faulty. It may simply mean your machine is messed up beyond hope and needs a clean start. Telling people to stop using SS or APE because there was something wrong with your personal computer setup (software/hardware) is nonsense. Others are using SS and are happy. You should instead submit bug reports. Or take your computer in for warranty repairs.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that bitching about your individual problems and writing SS off as ether unusable crappie software, or a monopoly, is really stupid.
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King Bob On The Cob
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Nov 30, 2003, 03:05 PM
 
Maybe GUIKit isn't an open standard because it isn't finished yet. That's the last thing someone trying to make a standard wants, Some goon extending it to encompass the needs that will be addressed later in the actual standard, and then people complain because the original program doesn't support this "feature" of a theme.
     
wreks
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Nov 30, 2003, 03:27 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
You seem to be the ONLY one here who's had a case like that. I'd say there's something wrong with your hardware, which makes it incompatible with APE. Maybe you had too many other hacks applied in the past, which accumulated, making your system unstable. And APE was simply the trigger. It's hard to tell. But I'd bet that if you wiped your HD, reinstalled panther, and then used APE/SS, you'd be fine.

I personally had lots of hacks applied in the past - I deleted some before panther update, and left some others (including the whole APE framework), and I have no problems with SS ... So your case seems to be very special. Not APE/SS's fault - i'd say it's the combination of your hardware and third party software previously installed.

People have got to stop bitching about their individual woes! If something bad happened to your system , it does not mean it will happen on all others!!! It does not mean the product is faulty. It may simply mean your machine is messed up beyond hope and needs a clean start. Telling people to stop using SS or APE because there was something wrong with your personal computer setup (software/hardware) is nonsense. Others are using SS and are happy. You should instead submit bug reports. Or take your computer in for warranty repairs.
stfu

That's the dumbest post I've read today and sadly seems to be much of the attitude of macnn. You install something, it messes up your machine, it must be your machine's fault, not some buggy systemwide framework that runs in the background and patches OS resources on the fly... give me a break. Insert your own rolly eyes here.

Part of the descriptor for this forum is "software - troubleshooting and discussion" don't tell people to keep their problems to themselves.
     
olorin15
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Nov 30, 2003, 03:43 PM
 
Originally posted by wreks:
stfu

That's the dumbest post I've read today and sadly seems to be much of the attitude of macnn. You install something, it messes up your machine, it must be your machine's fault, not some buggy systemwide framework that runs in the background and patches OS resources on the fly... give me a break. Insert your own rolly eyes here.

Part of the descriptor for this forum is "software - troubleshooting and discussion" don't tell people to keep their problems to themselves.
That's the dumbest reply to my post that I could have expected

If something works on my machine and not on yours, then it can't simply be the app's fault ... It's sad some people can't see this simple logic. A problem is only universal if it is REPRODUCABLE on ALL machines. Otherwise there are other issues here. So don't go claiming SS breaks people's Macs just cause it broke yours. I'm not saying it IS your computer, i'm just saying it might be, since I can't reproduce your problem on my computer. If you think this is stupid, then I guess I'm talking way over your head ...
     
olorin15
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Nov 30, 2003, 03:58 PM
 
Okay, I just thought of another example from a related field to illustrate my point. See if you can follow this:

say you are trying to build a circuit, and one of the elements is a transistor, which is a pretty sensitive thing. Say you also have a High Voltage lead somewhere in your setup. Say you put the two too close together, and you burn out your transistor when you turn the whole thing on. If you are convinced that the transistor is the problem, since it's the last thing you put in, and the rest worked before, you may be tempted to try different kinds. You'll end up burning a bunch, when you could have stepped back and thought about the whole layout of your circuit, and thus noticed that it's not very good. You could have saved yourself some money and time by doing this.

So same thing applies here. You should step back and look at the whole setup of your computer before you post here saying that the app is "broken". Instead think of what else might be wrong. Maybe it's an indication of a bigger problem. If you can't see anything wrong, submit a bug report. That's why people have come up with this concept ... But don't just say, hey this is broken, let me try another app, especially when there are others out there who have managed to get this app to work fine.
     
fireside
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Nov 30, 2003, 04:08 PM
 
you're right bbx. no one is forcing me to buy shapeshifter. except for you theme creators. i enjoy changing the look and feel of my interface, and since .dlta is going away and basically every theme maker is moving towards guiKit, i practically HAVE to buy shapeshifter if i want to change my gui. and when i say guikit should be an open format, i mean that guikit should be able to be used by more than one application. i'd be perfectly happy if you themers released two versions of your themes, one guikit, one dlta, so us users could decide if we want to use ShapeShifter or ThemeChanger or Duality, or whatever theme changer WE prefer. right now, YOU themers are practically MAKING us use ShapeShifter if we want to use your themes, by making them guiKit only. i know guikit/shapeshifter is the "theming of the future" for os x, but that does not mean there should just be one app to do it.
     
G0Ducks
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Nov 30, 2003, 04:12 PM
 
Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Ya very funny.
Hay I've just posted in reply to a few of the SS rant topics.

Yes I do like the software, SS is great. There has to be a counter point to everyone's negitive feedback anyway.

I just want to know why everyone is marking it off as bad, or unusable so quicky. Because it's $20?

Oh well I'll drop it. And before you write it off as crap, take into account that many people are having no problems with it and are enjoying it a lot.
Crap? I never said it is crap In fact, I love the program. What I don't like is when someone tells another someone that they shouldn't complain about a bug issue with a program. Or when a person tells another person that they should get over their desires where a program has left them feeling short.
That said, I understand that there is a "project scope" and that there are always going to be bugs (until there aren't.)
My beef comes from the amount of complaining about the response to the bugginess of a new program.
As for the $20 bucks... I think it is a little steep. If you think about it, it is a little trite to sell a program for $20 to a tiny handful of people, us the themeing community. Really all they could hope to make is about a grand or so. They might as well sell it for $100 bucks if they were serious about making mony.
What about the prospects? Well, it seems that the theme making process is difficult enough to scare away most people. That leaves only the people we have now, and maybe a few new comers later on. I guess what I am saying is that this is a very small market, with a very small margin of growth. So to charge anything that is beyond lunch money is a bit absurd.

Did I mention I only have 5 days left on my demo version of Shape Shifter? Yeah, it is a real bummer as I know for sure I won't be able to purchase this, probably ever. The problem is that $20 goes a long way in a house where it is needed, especially when weighed against a piece of shareware.

R
     
NetworkShadow
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Nov 30, 2003, 04:29 PM
 
Unsanity's only income is their shareware fees, they don't have any other jobs. It is good software, keeping Unsanity and themeing alive is well worth $20. And Unsanity hasn't once asked for an upgrade fee for any of their software.
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Lord Sith
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Nov 30, 2003, 05:15 PM
 
I love it, I really do.......... but I just disabled it. I went back to "Pro Plastic" via ThemeChanger. The memory issue is just too much. I need PS for work/income and PS works fine with a file size smaller than say 75MB but I regularly get into the 200 to 400MB range and "SS" basically renders PS useless after about 6 hours or so. (DP 1.42 1GB RAM) I am almost disappointed that I already paid......... but we'll see how the update improves the user experience.

Unsanity still rocks!

C'mon now with FruitMenu.
     
Silky Voice of The Gorn
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Nov 30, 2003, 05:30 PM
 
Wow...just wow.

I've never seen such a bunch of self-important prima-donna's in my life. All over a friggin' shareware app that performs an unimportant, unneeded function in OS X.

SS is a cool app and it will only get cooler. The general Mac using populace doesn't know about or give two sh1ts about other methods or types of theme changing, nor should they need to, what with all the petty bickering. I used to swap out my files just like you guys, but I MUCH prefer the safe method of SS.

Login screens? Boot panels? WTF CARES? You don't stare at those all day! Sheesh.

The whole "theming community" strikes me as a bunch of in-fighting, whining brats who need a good wrap across the nose with a rolled up magazine.
     
swiz
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Nov 30, 2003, 06:06 PM
 
Being busy with pay work causes me to frequent the forums a bit less and when I do come here and see all the complaining going on it really makes the OSX theme enthusiasts look like a bunch of little kids crying about useless stuff. Go get a job, shovel some driveways, ask for some money from your folks for Xmas... or stick with themechanger. Its really that simple. Theres no reason for anyone to NOT be using Panther by now and SS is really being built around Panther not Jaguar. It works great for almost everyone under Panther and for those who do experience issues with it, trust me, the 1.0.1 bug fix will leave little if anything to be desired regarding those bug fixes. Ive said it before, SS is the future like it or not, so quit your bitching about monopoly's or the price tag; just use the freebies if you find such issues with SS.
And for the last time:
Bill, Max and I are NOT getting paid squat to endorse the use of SS and we are not making squat off of its sales. So enough with those incinuations.

Go outside once or twice a day if your that distrubed about the ones and zeros.

24" AlumiMac 2.4ghz C2D, 4g Ram, 300g HD, 750g USBHD • 80g iPod • 160g ATV • iPhone 3g
     
olorin15
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Nov 30, 2003, 08:56 PM
 
People who have money to buy a Mac and then complain about $20 make me laugh ... You could have built a Linux box for $400 that runs just as well and saved yourself far more than $20. There's no excuse to complain about shareware if you want to use a Mac. That's how Mac software has been distributed for years. That's how it will be. You knew what you were getting yourself into, and yet you still got a Mac. And furthermore, if you did get yourself a Linux PC box, you'd have free theming forever. Yet you still chose Mac. And now you complain about SS costing money and such ... unbelievable. I'm a grad student, and I do not make a whole lot of money, but I prioretize. And I spend money on Mac hardware and software as an investment. If you think your $$ are better spent elsewhere, then spend it someplace else. But do not expect people to not charge you $$ for software they write, just cause you think it should be free!
     
cybergoober
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Nov 30, 2003, 10:03 PM
 
While this may not be the most appropriate thing to bring up, I'm going to anyway 'cause I'm sick of all the petty bickering:

RE: Being forced to pay $20

You know. There are always alternative means of "registering" the app if applying these themes is sooo all-important to you (yet you can't shell out a measly $20 ).
     
WICKEDfour
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Nov 30, 2003, 10:35 PM
 
Really guys, why don't you stop attacking Unsanity and ShapeShifter and tell us what you hate so much about it!!!!!

You want to know why the GUIkit isn't an "open" framework? For real? Fine.

ThemeChanger and other themers cannot do anything remotely close to SS because ShapeShifter (and for that matter, similar frameworks such as Project Monolith) makes Mac OS X theming possible.

1. DLTAs are so big because they have to fully replace the files in Mac OS X, most likely ones that contain more data than just theme-related information. ShapeShifter "overlays" the system, which allows the GUIkit to be much smaller and purposeful.
2. The GUIkit will never be compatible with ThemeChanger because text colors, colored metal windows, and custom shadows aren't possible because the SYSTEM won't let it. ShapeShifter beats the system in this aspect because its framework is independent of internal Mac OS X frameworks, unlike current theme apps. Sometimes you just have to let go, guys.

To those who continue to flame SS, tell me, do you think? It's very simple in reality: SS breaks the rules, for a good reason, too, shown by the fact that theming is utterly broken with Panther outside of the ShapeShifter solution.

In this aspect, "Project Monolith", therefore could support the GUIkit. There's no reason it couldn't, according to its description.

Oh wait, that'll cost money, too!

Is it really so wrong to give Unsanity and Jason Harris some money for their long hours of work that they put into both ShapeShifter and ThemePark? And for that matter, the developers of Project Monolith deserve money as well, if you choose to support their system.

I'm sure someone who developed a similar "free" alternative to ShapeShifter would drop it right away, judging from the amount of complaining people continue to either post here or send to Unsanity, who is a company that therefore is obligated, in general, to go through all of that email.

For those who want to continue using freeware themers, how do you intend to hold onto that? Truely creative themes that are worth using will be consistent and therefore will require the "beat-the-system" functionality that ShapeShifter and similar implementations offer.

Sure, you could make a theme that stays within Panther's limitations, but...

1. You could potentially run into copyright issues because in fact, the resources of your theme are parts of Apple's property, therefore you are stealing.
2. Simply put, would it be any good?

A few notes about this post:

You'll notice that I mention "other frameworks". Isn't it obvious? Once other projects like Monolith are released, if they're any good, they'll also be able to overcome Panther's limitations. However, it is beyond the current moment to say that these other projects will be any good.

This is ONE point OH. We're only on the island here, the continent still has to be exposed here.

Guys, I'll be honest here. I'm fourteen years old. If I can understand this stuff and see why it's worth paying for, what does that say about some of these flamers? [Read: Keep an open mind, guys. I'm not saying that I'm smarter than you or anything. If this statement says that to you, I apologize.]

I'm pretty optimistic about most things, but I'm sure that "free" theming is D E A D. Start saving your pennies guys...

As far as "Two Cents" go:
Those who understand that ShapeShifter is part of a revolution that is necessary to keep theming alive, it's good to see that you guys have some morality; hard work deserves some renumeration.

Those who antagonize this situation by offering only flames and bad criticism instead of constructive suggestions, put your money where your mouth is.
( Last edited by WICKEDfour; Nov 30, 2003 at 10:43 PM. )

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Bit Density
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Dec 1, 2003, 01:04 AM
 
Originally posted by cloudaj:
LOL! Wow, thats what I get for researching my examples that I come up with on a whim.

I think that in the end this goes back to people just not wanting to pay the $20.00, and they think an open format will allow a free theme app to come along. Thats really not true, just because guikit is opensource doesn't mean that they couldn't charge for its implementation in other programs, or stipulate other conditions as to its use.
I agree with you. But I personally think it is good. There are two market forces that I think combined provide better solutions. Free and Pay. Pay services keep the programmers in peanut butter and crackers, and programmers and companies are incented to provide value for money. Free is usually brilliant folk that have desperate need for doing something (and that something may just be creating something that is free) that satisfies a deep need and often only fame is there need. Having both in the economic system provides even more heated competition that neither just free, or just pay alone can provide. Ultimately, this means that products will get better and better for each of us users.

So, allow them to crank on if you will, I will continue to decide with what meets my needs and whether I find enough value to pay.

(Now if someone could make a reasonably priced free or cheap un-delete utility for macosx I would be grateful. I lost a lot of tunes making a delete mistake, but ultimately it was not worth the cost of undelete utilities, but that meant that I also had irretrievably lost my files and that is a shame).

Cheers
     
Rosyna
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Dec 1, 2003, 01:08 AM
 
Originally posted by smic:
ok i decided to try out shapshifter this morning
bad [email protected] idea
installed it, installed the more recent APE
shapeshifter prefPane didnt show up, no biggy, unistalled it, installed again, added the newer GUIpod, and PowerMetal
picked out one theme to go with, said it was best to restart my mac, so i did, it would boot, then just give me a blue screen
restart again, in safe mode, same blue screen after it boots up
so went to single user mode, deleted the shapeShifter pane, prefs, application support, all that i could find, rebooted again, kernel panic, so reboot back into safe mode, it worked, uninstalled the APE, and now everything is fine

so i missed how this was "safer" to use then modifying the resources, i never had a problem with themes, even with panther i installed drawingBoardX theme, and swiz's studioPro before it went with the shapeShifter

just had to bitch, or warn, depending on how u take it
oh and i dont know if it was APE or shAPEshifter that caused problems since i never used APE before
1. What do you mean by "more recent APE". ShapeShifter includes the newest one and installs it.

2. APE cannot cause a kernel panic. It NEVER exists in kernel space. Even our most fubared dev version of APE is unable to cause a kernel panic.
     
Rosyna
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Dec 1, 2003, 01:11 AM
 
Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Unsanity's only income is their shareware fees, they don't have any other jobs. It is good software, keeping Unsanity and themeing alive is well worth $20. And Unsanity hasn't once asked for an upgrade fee for any of their software.
We've tried it a few times here and there. I personally would get bored at the other job and start working on unsanity stuff. Something I loved to do at a place I didn't want to be
     
quandarry
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Dec 1, 2003, 05:43 AM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
You're either delusional or misinformed... You also misspelled 'speak' and 'collusion' (and how anybody can seriously consider the technical assertions of somebody who can't even use a spell-checker, I'll never know)...

If you honestly think anybody is supporting SS because they were paid off, you're so far off base you're in the freaking parking lot. While I think it should be obvious by now, let me remind you that SS has given us Panther theming (which would have been limited to grayscale with hard-coded shadows and most existing themes usable in only an incompatible/broken state), the ability to change text colors for the first time (and much more still being hammered out by the mad scientists is coming), crazy-mad compression ratios (when a normally 8 MB theme spits out at less than a megabyte with no sacrifice in image quality - I guess I must be blinded by all the money Unsanity gave me, but to my mind that's called good compression), the ability to apply themes in memory - the list goes on. Anybody who doesn't see the benefits (both immediate and future) in all of this needs their head examined, seriously. Add to this the fact that themers no longer need to worry about support issues and it becomes painfully obvious that your allegations of 'callusion' are not only pure fiction - they speak loudly of ignorance.

Not worth the $20 yet? Fine, then don't buy... but running around slandering people by implying they were bribed is so NOT the way to go, dude.

you're right i did spell 'speak' and 'collusion' incorrectly...
and i was a bit stupid to mention the collusion thing...i was pissed off that day and wanted to say something nasty.

for some reason some peeps think i have something against shapeshifter...NOT...i think it is one direction to go in that is good but i believe it just wasn't ready for primetime.
money is no problem to me i haven't complained about that either.

who said anything about anyone being bribed...NOT ME!

i think you need to cool your jets...

and for all intents and purposes i don't really give a **** anymore...i don't use anyones themes but the beauty i created on one mac and regia on another and i swapped out the files myself.


ps: if anyone wants a dlta file made from a guikit to use with panther PM me and i will email it to you.
( Last edited by quandarry; Dec 1, 2003 at 05:57 AM. )
     
quandarry
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Dec 1, 2003, 05:52 AM
 
Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that bitching about your individual problems and writing SS off as ether unusable crappie software, or a monopoly, is really stupid.
give it a rest shadowman.
     
digitaljames
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Dec 1, 2003, 09:16 AM
 
I'm just frustrated with people who are frustrated with SS.....

j/k
     
Vi0
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Dec 1, 2003, 09:28 AM
 
We need more themers who aren't going to use the Mac OS X equivalent of WindowBlinds. I'd like to see people create unique and interesting themes within the limitations (if that's what you want to call them) of Panther.

Also, saying that things like the boot screen or the about box doesn't matter is not solving any problem. I think some people in here are quite arrogant when they try to pass off the shortcomings of SS as inconsequential.
( Last edited by Vi0; Dec 1, 2003 at 09:35 AM. )
     
Kujo
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Dec 1, 2003, 10:40 AM
 
sucks being forced to pay for themes

but 20 bucks is a small price to pay for a app thats really good that you use all the time. only problem is SS is not that. at least not yet.

Even tho i have 5 days left to register SS i cant use it b/c it flashes this red crap. now i cant use milk. :/
     
bbxstudio
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Dec 1, 2003, 12:24 PM
 
Originally posted by Vi0:
I think some people in here are quite arrogant when they try to pass off the shortcomings of SS as inconsequential.
Not to mention the arrogance of users who feel compelled to tell the themers that they made the wrong decision in supporting SS.
     
Vi0
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Dec 1, 2003, 12:39 PM
 
Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Not to mention the arrogance of users who feel compelled to tell the themers that they made the wrong decision in supporting SS.
I think my concerns are legitimate. And "the themers" who are associated with SS aren't the only ones who can theme for Mac OS X.
     
Tarambana
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Dec 1, 2003, 03:12 PM
 
But they are the best.


Also, I don't either understand why is people talking about being forced to pay 20$ a shareware fee. I mean, come on, it isn't all that important to theme the Mac, really. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

Just buy it if you think it's worth but please, stop complaining.


And: Max, Swiz, BBX, et al; I am extremely grateful to your hard work. I really love what you do.
     
Bobby
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Dec 1, 2003, 05:32 PM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:

#3 - It doesn't theme everything. We used to have login screens, shut down dialogs and boot screens, now what do we have? A very inconsistent GUI.
This is not a valid reason. If you have more than one user on your system, and any of the users uses a different theme, then this will cause an inconsistent problem in itself.

If you want all users to have the exact same theme, do it the old fashion way...
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Dec 1, 2003, 07:32 PM
 
Originally posted by Bobby:
This is not a valid reason. If you have more than one user on your system, and any of the users uses a different theme, then this will cause an inconsistent problem in itself.

If you want all users to have the exact same theme, do it the old fashion way...
They could still make it so if you apply the theme within the root account, it will change everything. It is a valid reason, just not to you. You are not everyone and the way your computer is set up does not apply to everyone. Not everyone here has more than one user on the computer.

Far as the money thing, I don't think that anyone was complaining about having to pay for SS. Personally, I think that it is a little steep, I mean it is paying 1/8 of the cost of the operating system just for another preference pane. I mean yes, I do think that Unsanity should be paid in response to the 14 year old. But do I think that it took 1/8 the manpower to code this as it did a whole operating system upgrade? No. I still will pay it, just saying my 2 cents.

In my opinion though, I think that we should all be paying the makers of the theme and not just Unsanity who makes it possible to theme. I personally think we have it good right now, I mean it is basically 20 dollars once, for unlimited themes. I know if I themed, I would definitely charge a good 20 to 50 dollars per theme. It is a whole new GUI pretty much.
     
olorin15
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Dec 1, 2003, 09:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:
They could still make it so if you apply the theme within the root account, it will change everything. It is a valid reason, just not to you. You are not everyone and the way your computer is set up does not apply to everyone. Not everyone here has more than one user on the computer.
Let's look at the most themable OS out there ... Linux. Now there you have GTK themes, you have windowmanager themes, and you have login GDM themes. That's the way it should be done. You can combine GTK and windowmanager themes in a unified wnvironment (e.g. Enlightenment), but this does not apply to GDM logins, since that's not user owned. There SHOULD be a separate app for login screens. Then you can launch that as root and choose a login screen for everyone who might be using your machine (or just yourself). You can't launch for example Gnome Control Center as root and change themes for all your users. That makes no sense!

Also, about complaining ... I've tried a large number of Linux desktop environments out there, I've participated in forums, I've made some Linux themes, and I've never ever seen any complaints such as this! No one ever came along and said to people who code Blackbox or WindowMaker or whatever, "hey folks, your apps suck, cuz they give me an inconsistent GUI - I mean look at my login screen" There people understand their limits. They understand the system. And they do not complain. Here people just want everything to work out of the box perfectly, and do all the things they think the apps should do ... People, be reasonable! OS X IS a UNIX-based OS. So let's follow the UNIX rules. End-user apps should NEVER touch root-owned stuff. If you want an OS that has no logical rules, then get yourself a Windows PC ...
     
Lord Sith
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Dec 1, 2003, 09:16 PM
 
I love reading this petty bullshit.
     
olorin15
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Dec 2, 2003, 12:23 AM
 
Originally posted by Lord Sith:
I love reading this petty bullshit.
If Lord Sith were indeed above this petty bullshit, he would not be wasting his time writing such petty posts
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Dec 2, 2003, 02:10 AM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
Let's look at the most themable OS out there ... Linux. Now there you have GTK themes, you have windowmanager themes, and you have login GDM themes. That's the way it should be done. You can combine GTK and windowmanager themes in a unified wnvironment (e.g. Enlightenment), but this does not apply to GDM logins, since that's not user owned. There SHOULD be a separate app for login screens. Then you can launch that as root and choose a login screen for everyone who might be using your machine (or just yourself). You can't launch for example Gnome Control Center as root and change themes for all your users. That makes no sense!

Also, about complaining ... I've tried a large number of Linux desktop environments out there, I've participated in forums, I've made some Linux themes, and I've never ever seen any complaints such as this! No one ever came along and said to people who code Blackbox or WindowMaker or whatever, "hey folks, your apps suck, cuz they give me an inconsistent GUI - I mean look at my login screen" There people understand their limits. They understand the system. And they do not complain. Here people just want everything to work out of the box perfectly, and do all the things they think the apps should do ... People, be reasonable! OS X IS a UNIX-based OS. So let's follow the UNIX rules. End-user apps should NEVER touch root-owned stuff. If you want an OS that has no logical rules, then get yourself a Windows PC ...
If by complaining you are referring to my original post, if you don't like it, don't read it. It was simply my personal frustrations with it and nothing else. I do expect something to be perfect out of the box if I am paying for it. How would you feel if you went and bought photoshop for 600 dollars and got home only to find out that it causes other apps to crash, has memory leaks and is missing features. I.E. When you save a file, it only saves half of it. They could have released free beta versions to test usability and then after everything was ironed out, released a 1.0 version for pay.

My original intent of this thread was to see if the other people were experiencing the same concerns and hopefully, if they are, Unsanity will do something about it. The voice of many is much stronger than the voice of one. If no one else was, then I definitely wanted to see why these issues were not bothering them and maybe I could 'see the light' if you will. I remain open minded to this app and have a lot of hope for it.
     
Lord Sith
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Dec 2, 2003, 08:28 AM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
If Lord Sith were indeed above this petty bullshit, he would not be wasting his time writing such petty posts
     
olorin15
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Dec 2, 2003, 02:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:
They could have released free beta versions to test usability and then after everything was ironed out, released a 1.0 version for pay.
Fellow, I understand that when something that works for most people does not work for you, it causes frustration. I'm just saying be reasonable in your complaints. And btw this first version of SS is in a way a free beta - it expires eventually after you've tried it and decided for yourself whether it's something you want or not. SS update is coming out tomorrow, so i think it's quite fair. You say yourself that you see potential in SS - so the 1.0 release did it's job and got you interested. Now get the update and see if it lives up to your expectations. Then you can pay for it or forget it altogether.
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Dec 2, 2003, 05:55 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
Fellow, I understand that when something that works for most people does not work for you, it causes frustration. I'm just saying be reasonable in your complaints. And btw this first version of SS is in a way a free beta - it expires eventually after you've tried it and decided for yourself whether it's something you want or not. SS update is coming out tomorrow, so i think it's quite fair. You say yourself that you see potential in SS - so the 1.0 release did it's job and got you interested. Now get the update and see if it lives up to your expectations. Then you can pay for it or forget it altogether.
Which parts of my complaints did you find unreasonable? The job of a 1.0 release is not to get people interested, it is a release.

Alpha & Teasers - get people interested, gain ideas.

Beta - Testing time, people agree to use the app under the understanding that it is an unstable beta.

Release - This is a stable app. The major bugs should be fixed through testing, and everything should be peachy keen. The only thing left should be future releases with more features added and minor bugfixes.

Let's revisit the Photoshop analogy. So you are saying, that if Adobe released a new version of Photoshop, CS lets say, and they offered a preview version available for download that would last 30 days. After which you could decide to purchase it or delete it. So, you download it, try it out, and then it causes another application on your computer to crash and you loose all your information. That is ok with you?

I'm not asking for a miracle, simply saying I was frustrated that it caused me to loose information. There was a very important phase of this application that was skipped, the testing phase. It's just that simple.

I don't think asking Unsanity to test the app and make sure that it is stable is in any way unreasonable. They labeled it v1.0. I am 100 percent sure that if Unsanity knew all the grief the app caused its users, they would apologize. It is not like they made problems on purpose. No one is claiming that. What we are saying is that when a application is released as final, we expect it to work properly.

Really, I would not have minded any of this if they would have included a small readme that just stated, "warning, themeing on OS X is not safe, this application could cause damage etc......"

This is not meant to pick on your post, just wanted to know how this was unreasonable?
     
Groovy
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Dec 2, 2003, 08:40 PM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:

I'm not asking for a miracle, simply saying I was frustrated that it caused me to loose information. There was a very important phase of this application that was skipped, the testing phase. It's just that simple.

No one is claiming that. What we are saying is that when a application is released as final, we expect it to work properly.
I agree. After just 30 minutes of use i pulled it because of completely obvious bugs. Also the GUI was poorly designed. Selecting a theme then hitting preview or apply is all you should need to do. The radio button should be dumped. Furthermore, the aqua theme should have been in the list. it should be pre-viewable like any other theme. It sounds sorta crazy but when you are in one theme it would be nice to preview aqua to make sure you really do want to go back and then the aqua theme should be applied like any other theme even though SS would really just turn itself off behind the scenes. At least the front end would be consistent.


My guess is only about 6 people were testing this and hence the bugs getting through and also these people were too close to the project and why the bad front end design. They were all so used to it they never saw it from a new user point if view.

the above of course is just my opinion
     
olorin15
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Dec 2, 2003, 08:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Fellow2000:
Which parts of my complaints did you find unreasonable? The job of a 1.0 release is not to get people interested, it is a release.
...
This is not meant to pick on your post, just wanted to know how this was unreasonable?
When OS 10.1 came out, did you expect it to be perfect? What about 10.0? I think both needed more than minor bugfixes ... Maybe that's just my opinion, I dunno. I think 1.0 should tell you that they did some testing, they thought it was ok to release, and they did it. They expected to follow up with updates. And 1.0 works for most people. So I think their goals were achieved. Some people buy OS X, install it, and then get Kernel panics cuz something was broken somewhere in their setup. Should Apple apologize for a bad release? Should they have called it a Beta? Maybe Unsanity did not do very extensive testing, but that's your opinion. I don't think people should come out and tell Unsanity that their product is crap cuz it crashed a couple computers out of a few hundred/thousand. If SS broke say 10% of the systems it was installed on, then that would be worthy of a Beta. But as it stands, this is not the case as far as i can tell ...
     
olorin15
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Dec 2, 2003, 09:00 PM
 
Originally posted by Groovy:

the above of course is just my opinion
If everyone added this one tiny little line to their posts on how SS sucks, I would not have a problem with this thread.

I for one tend to like the interface design. And SS works fine for me (have not experienced much memory leaking like others have ...)
     
twixster
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Dec 2, 2003, 10:26 PM
 
My experience has shown that it is safer to change a few pics in the system resources that conform to the system specs then to supress the oringinal theme. For example, we had Kalidescope which was a 3rd party app that when around and supressed the apple theme by a complex series of system hacks. However, we could also do it using Apple theme editor and get better results with out the speed decrease, if you could find the themes. Also, as it must be noted when running Kal you would also notice a speed decrease in some cases. Even thought i used Kal i had always wished that there was an easy way to hack the system and change some system resources or pics so as to not slow down the system, however, as i have notice some of you advicate that it is more dangerous to do it that way, which is why i say to you why don't you just partition your hard drive and install yellowdoglinux or some other linux varient in case of problems, then you can start up in that os and change the problem and restart into our beloved mac os.
Now as in the case of MacOS X, i have noticed that apple both made it easier for us to mod the actual system and hard at the same time. It takes some time to find the right files but once they are found you can mod them and then you can restart your finder for the new theme or you can get theme installer which in my opinion does a very good job at installing themes safely. Also they have nifty programs out that will also save all the files for apperence and allow you to then restore the original files and have a happy system. Also i have noticed no speed decrease when doing themes this way. I have a feeling that if i ever switch to SS i will notice a speed decrease within my system, which i will not tolerate. This is one of the reasons that i do not run Konfabulator. It slows down my system. Also, i would like to know what is wrong with the old way of doing things. I liked to mod my system files to get it to look different and i don't understand why i want a program that chould potentially cause serious problems with my system and slow it down running. Also, i will not pay close to 30 dollars i think it is for a theme modding system that might slow down my system. I like the old free, supposidly dangerous way of themeing. I just with that the themes were being updated faster for that method then the new method. Themeing should be a free hobby.
     
quandarry
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Dec 2, 2003, 10:51 PM
 
well right now it's mainly for the type color problems that shapshifter addresses with dark themes but according to bbx and network shadow it will jump thru hoops soon enough.

otherwise there is no need to use it at this time.

getting my hockey helmet on for shadowman's body check.

ps: it does build up a big meg booty in the cache folder so i don't get the smaller file thing tho.

pps: altho i don't use alluminum alloy i converted it to dlta format from guikit and installed it sucessfully with thmechanger.
( Last edited by quandarry; Dec 2, 2003 at 11:12 PM. )
     
Phanguye
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Dec 2, 2003, 10:59 PM
 
i really just have two questions... will this update fix screen tearing and the refresh issues with ichat

also will we be given an extra couple days to test out this release to make sure that it fixes these things before we plop down the money

thanks
     
smic
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Dec 2, 2003, 11:48 PM
 
ok i wasnt really blaming SS, it was cool, the one time it was working the preferencepane wanst showing up, it was installed, and i got to use the guiPod (which was really cool)
but something did mess up
i could blame panther, since ive noticed it doesnt copy things right sometimes, like it copies most of a file but not all of it
and the problem isnt my hardware, since nothing else has a problem, and it isnt other "hacks", or software since i just re-installed panther 2 weeks ago

but whatever, seems like a big war on here about it, and i was just saying my problem i had, that happened at the sametime as installing SS and APE

coulda been a coincidence
w3rd..
surrey represent
     
Fellow2000  (op)
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Dec 2, 2003, 11:56 PM
 
Originally posted by olorin15:
If everyone added this one tiny little line to their posts on how SS sucks, I would not have a problem with this thread.

I for one tend to like the interface design. And SS works fine for me (have not experienced much memory leaking like others have ...)
olorin - I am sorry if anyone misunderstood me and my original posts. The title of this thread is MY frustrations and everything that I have said here is just my own personal opinion. I am fully aware that many people are having no problems with this application and all and love it. I just wanted to share my personal experience and my frustration. I apologize.
     
olorin15
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Dec 3, 2003, 12:59 AM
 
Originally posted by twixster:
My experience has shown that it is safer to change a few pics in the system resources that conform to the system specs then to supress the oringinal theme ... I like the old free, supposidly dangerous way of themeing. I just with that the themes were being updated faster for that method then the new method. Themeing should be a free hobby.
twixter,
you should read all the other posts that discuss the "safer" aspect of SS. But really the point is that SS may be broken on some machines, and ThemeChanger on others (e.g. mine ) So, if TC works well for you, and you are happy with the way old-school theming works under Panther (which a lot of people are not), then by all means keep doing it the old way. SS opens up new possibilities. To many of us that's worth the money. The old way of themeing was very limited - most themes still resembled aqua a bit. With SS this will not be a problem. If that's not worth $$ to you, fine, don't use SS.

Another point many have brought up against SS is GuiKit format, and how all the best themers are switching to that. I think it's not going to matter, since now they'll start releasing much more original themes (e.g. EYLO), which will not work with TC or Duality anyway ...
     
quandarry
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Dec 3, 2003, 05:50 AM
 
i had aluminum alloy running with shapeshifter...it was pretty sweet, no problemos....
then i decided to try out the new dsky kowloon theme in guikit format and this is what i ended up with.
i logged out...same thing...
restarted same thing...
seems to be a mixture
of the two themes.

     
Lefo
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Dec 3, 2003, 07:15 AM
 
Originally posted by quandarry:
well right now it's mainly for the type color problems that shapshifter addresses with dark themes but according to bbx and network shadow it will jump thru hoops soon enough.

otherwise there is no need to use it at this time.

getting my hockey helmet on for shadowman's body check.

ps: it does build up a big meg booty in the cache folder so i don't get the smaller file thing tho.

pps: altho i don't use alluminum alloy i converted it to dlta format from guikit and installed it sucessfully with thmechanger.
He's not kidding, either. Got a copy, installed just fine. Looks terrific. Now I've got the theme back that I lost when I upgraded to Panther.

Thanks!!!

Lefo
     
 
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