[Moose]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Now you're going against your "websites are mini-apps" idea you've been screaming about. So what is it...are they apps or documents?

If they're apps, shouldn't Safari work similar to the Finder? Shouldn't webpages open in it's own window like *every* app out there?

Web pages can be both documents and INTERFACES to applications. While the heavy lifting is done on the back-end, the web page displays output and receives input. The closest workalike I can think of right now is a Cocoa application. Web pages are (somewhat) analogous to nib files.

Online banking is a perfect example of this. It's not a static document. It's an application that you interact with via a web page. You can view statements, make payments, and do other things.

The fact that the HTML you are downloading is not responsible for the actual processing of the input and providing output does not make the website you are visiting any less of an application.

Web pages that require a specific window size, or that want to resize your window are broken. Broken, broken, broken. Developing an application binary using Win32, Windows Forms, Cocoa, Carbon, Gtk, Qt, etc., and developing a web-based application are two different things, and require two different interfaces.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by Moose:
Web pages that require a specific window size, or that want to resize your window are broken. Broken, broken, broken.

Says you.

[poocat]

guy, isn't it amazing that you still

a) have no life
b) are allowed to talk about this
c) think we care
d) really think anyone's listening?

wow.

you amaze me.
maybe you should invent a couple more screen names and create an army of people who agree with you.

that would make your arguement more convincing, promise.

use what you like, like what you use,
but come on, stop harping on it!

poocat.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by pliny:
Get cracking, man.

I did...I'm just waiting for someone to implement some or all of the many ideas I mocked up in the last 6 months.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by poocat:
guy, isn't it amazing that you still

a) have no life
b) are allowed to talk about this
c) think we care
d) really think anyone's listening?

wow.

you amaze me.
maybe you should invent a couple more screen names and create an army of people who agree with you.

that would make your arguement more convincing, promise.

use what you like, like what you use,
but come on, stop harping on it!

poocat.

Thing is...I give intelligent reasons why tabs fail and you don't. That's the difference between me you and the rest of the people that delude themselves into thinking tabs are the perfect solution. Instead of attacking my points, most of you attack me as a person. Only a select few like Millenium will actually try to convince me that my points are wrong without attacking me as a person.

I may attack people...but I also attack the point. You only attack the person.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Says you.

Tell me why it isn't broken behavior.

Why should a web page have the right to enforce a particular size browser window on me?

The only applications that do this are single-purpose applications like System Preferences, Airport Admin, Internet Connect, etc.

A web browser is a multi-purpose application. You can use it to read the news, check your stocks, check your mail, track packages, check your bank/credit card balances, etc.

All of those are document-based applications. You go to your online banking site, and it sends you a document where you put your login credentials. You submit them to the server using this document, and the server processes it, and sends you another document where you can do any number of things. Depending on what you send to the server next, it sends you the appropriate document.

Documents can be, and have been, resizeable at will. The fact that they have interface elements does not make them any less a document. The fact that they're documents does not make them any less the interface to an application.

Do I need to break this down into smaller concepts that you can understand? Perhaps words of no more than one syllable?

[TC]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
That would be the of the Mac OS experience.

This would be like the equivalent of the Windows Taskbar integrated into every app.

I shudder at the thought.

The Windows TaskBar is a mess because it trys to show you every open document.
What he was suggesting would only show the windows of the current app, completely different from what Windows TaskBar does.

Mac OS X needs something to improve moving between windows in apps.
Adobe has totally bastardized the windows menu in Photoshop by making you go another level to documents to get to your windows.

I would love it if Apple would give us something similar to the dock which just displayed the windows of the current app. This could be done in a similar way to minimized windows in the main dock. They could provide an API for people to decide on what is displayed in the minimized window. In this way Apps which have similar looking Windows can provide a more obvious image to differentiate between their windows.

Only problem is where to place it on the screen. I would be quite happy with putting it on one of the edges where the main dock isn't but I'm sure Apple would never do this as it would confuse people.

As many people have already said on this argument, if you don't like tabs don't use them. You sound like you're trying to turn us to your religion before we are all damned to spend eternity in hell.

[Mskr]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Thing is...I give intelligent reasons why tabs fail and you don't. That's the difference between me you and the rest of the people that delude themselves into thinking tabs are the perfect solution.

I don't think that you can argue that something that is subjective can be a 'perfect solution', which would be (I believe by definition) an objective statement. Basically, some people will like tabs, since it allows them to do something in a certain way, but other people will say that they aren't useful, whatever.

It can be argued that they have some merit or not, but I don't think that any UI feature could be argued as a "perfect solution" to any problem. Aside from the (probably almost trivial) development time taken up by adding tabs to Safari, if you don't plan on using them, why would you even care that they are there? I haven't seen any more elegant solution to the problem of having 1 webpage == 1 window, so I, for one, am greatly looking forward to seeing tabs added to Safari. They work quite well for what I want them to accomplish, and I enjoy using them. If you don't, I can understand that, too. If you think you have a better solution, tell Apple and maybe they'll listen to you. Or, write your own browser. But it seems like a silly pasttime to brow-beat and "attack" other people just because they like something that you don't.

You might as well ->

Ok?

[Jan Van Boghout]

The tabs rock! But how does the new autofill work?

[Ilja]

*tries to grab some attention among all these nice constructive replies *

Probably a stupid question, but where can I download this version? On the apple site you still can only download version 0.60...

Please be gentle with me

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Moose:
Tell me why it isn't broken behavior.

Why should a web page have the right to enforce a particular size browser window on me?

The only applications that do this are single-purpose applications like System Preferences, Airport Admin, Internet Connect, etc.

A web browser is a multi-purpose application. You can use it to read the news, check your stocks, check your mail, track packages, check your bank/credit card balances, etc.

All of those are document-based applications. You go to your online banking site, and it sends you a document where you put your login credentials. You submit them to the server using this document, and the server processes it, and sends you another document where you can do any number of things. Depending on what you send to the server next, it sends you the appropriate document.

Documents can be, and have been, resizeable at will. The fact that they have interface elements does not make them any less a document. The fact that they're documents does not make them any less the interface to an application.

Do I need to break this down into smaller concepts that you can understand? Perhaps words of no more than one syllable?

The only instance i agree with this behavior is mostly on flash sites. You can't fill flash ina browser so most design to a size like 600x800 or smaller and then to make it look nice wnat the browser window to perfectly frame the site design they created. Another time is when popping an image (or content) in a new window and having the window a certain size or fitting the size of the image. Thos instances there should be no resizing needed and a scroll bar just adds to clutter on a clean looking window.

jan van- they don't yet.

[RevEvs]

this version isnt an officialy released version. someone on macrumors.com was hosting it earlier... if its still being hosted it shouldnt be too hard to find...

revs

[kovacs]

Originally posted by Ilja:
*tries to grab some attention among all these nice constructive replies *

Probably a stupid question, but where can I download this version? On the apple site you still can only download version 0.60...

Please be gentle with me

You can find a link to this not so offical version of safari on the forums of macrumors...

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
That would be the end of the Mac OS experience.

This would be like the equivalent of the Windows Taskbar integrated into every app.

The "Mac OS experience"? Where's that today? Maybe in some more eye-candy elegance, and a few "a little more intuitive" interface elements (and, above all, probably in the new UNIX-like OS) - but there isn't really anything sooooo compelling about the "Mac" today (also considering that OS X probably cannot continue be considered a "Mac OS" for too long, anymore).

The real problem, IMHO, is to adopt reasonably good and practically useful things - such as tabs, etc... - on an as wide as possible level (optimisation): of course, your claim that Apple should try to invent the best possible solution is quite a reasonable one - but I think that some - extended! - variation of "Hyatt's tabs" seems to be good enough (and even rather elegant!) for the time being...

[Millennium]

Originally posted by macmike42:
Pepi is not only a troll, but a user interface Nazi as well.

Dammit, Mike; did you have to invoke Godwin's Law? And this debate was going so well...

[nforcer]

Tabs are here, and they work well for now, despite what Pepi (aka Guy Incognito?) or anyone else says. I'd obviously like to have some preference option for not switching to the next tab when a new one is opened, but other than that, they will do for now.

It would be great in the future if Apple decided to "innovate" and add some interesting things for the tabs. Perhaps add an option to use one of the drawer snapshot interfaces shown here before (not so sure I want to take up THAT much screen area when the current implementation works for me), and perhaps a way of dragging and dropping content between tabs (if you have something selected, you can drag and drop it over another tab, and then after a few moments that tab becomes the foremost tab and you can drop the conent of your selection upon any field or anything else within the content of that tab... kind of like spring loaded tabs). But I'm glad the feature in rudimentary form is there.

[Hi I'm Ben]

I have a great use for tabs.
lets say you're cruising around a a p0rn site and it's one of those free movie or picture sites where they hvae galleries and you want to surf through a bunch you see.

so you open like 30 new tabs and cruise through them like a book rather then having a million windows all over the world.

Or i guess all that could work on a message board too...

I don't live by tabs, infact i could have lived without them being in safari, but i think i'll use them since i can.

[simifilm]

As fair as I am concerned I only use a browser wihtout tabs if I have to. I got so used to it, it feels strange now to use a non tabbed browser. For people like me Safari got much more attractive. For everybody else it hasn't lost anything...

[Developer]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Don't deceive yourselves. You all run into these problems with tabs but don't want to admit it because you want to be part of this 'cool fad'.

- Tabs force a one-size window on websites that do not necessarily play well with a certain website forcing you to resize the window.

- Tabs favors the window size to be fairly large and makes are impossible to use with small browser windows.

- Tabs have truncation problems when the tab limit is reached.

- Tabs are moving targets.

- An accidental clicking of the Red close widget in v62 makes you lose all your tabs instantly.

- Management of tabs is crippled compared to management of windows.

- Tabs provide a more singletasking aspect to browsing. You might aswell browse pages 1-by-1 because you can't interact with 2 pages at the same time (side-by-side comparison, drag'n'dropping of elements, feedback of updated pages)

- Popups don't handle well with tabs.

These are all very real problems and you've all experienced the majority of them. For the love of God, stop denying it and stop being masochists.

Very well said.

[codywalton]

jeez... would you all like some cheese with your whine? get over it....the tabs in Safari are an OPTIONAL feature. you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. or better yet, use one of any number of other browsers. we don't need to hear you complain about some optional feature you're not even going to use. Do whatever helps you work the best...think tabs are bad, ok, i think they're good. no big deal. it's ok if different people like different things.

I for one started using v62 this morning and think it rocks harder than tenacious D.

[Peter]

using the new safari ... its cool just needs two buttons, new tab and close tab Oh and the autofill out form needs options, I cant find them ...

[Sharky K.]

I agree with Pepi.
Tabs are horible... There are better ways to do this

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
I agree with Pepi.
Tabs are horible... There are better ways to do this

I am still trying to get used to them. They are...odd. I noticed that after closing a tab the window doesn't get resized back. Weird. Viva La Beta!

[Developer]

Originally posted by codywalton:
jeez... would you all like some cheese with your whine? get over it....the tabs in Safari are an OPTIONAL feature. you don't like 'em, don't use 'em.

If they are there, people will use them. And that will cause them all the trouble outlined above, making their lifes more complicated than it could be.
That's the opposite of what the Mac once stood for - ease of use.

[Peter]

sweeeetness, just found a menu that brought back memories of my peecee (its a good thing, I loved Opera ... )
Find a link, right hand click it second one down "Open Link in New Tab"
*coughs* sorry.
How odd, the tabs are there but I have not actually tried them out yet, odd

[MusicMan]

I noticed that after closing a tab the window doesn't get resized back. Weird. Viva la beta!

Odd ... it does on my machine. Oh well, as you said.

I think if we're really going to have tabs — and it sure looks like we are — Safari should one-up Chimera/Camino by listing the names of the pages as submenus wherever the window names are listed, i.e. in the Dock menu, or in the window menu.

I like how urls from other apps get loaded in the current tab only if that tab is empty. I don't like how urls from other apps are loaded in a new window, contrariwise. I do like how the tabs act almost exactly like Chimera/Camino's, especially the Cmd-Shift-Right/Left Arrow shortcut — what's up with the bracket stuff in Chimera/Camino?

Those who say tabs are bad UI are probably right .. but I'm used to them now, and won't make a browser without them my primary one. I do a LOT of web editing, and between keeping FTP windows, BBEdit windows and multiple web browsers open, I like to consolidate where I can. Here's to the Safari team ... and NOT NECESSARILY HYATT, gimme a break!

[foamy]

Originally posted by Developer:
If they are there, people will use them. And that will cause them all the trouble outlined above, making their lifes more complicated than it could be.

{sarcasm}
Tabs might confuse someone! The Horror. The Horror!

Wow! I'm so happy you're looking out for my best interests. Thank you for saving me from the treachery that tabs espouse. I'm also happy you saved my little brain from undertaking any more complcation and confusion; I'm sure it couldn't have handled it and it might have exploded! Thank you.
{/sarcasm}

I don't think people will continue to use them if they don't like them. Case in point, my girlfriend. I've tried on numerous ocassions to show her the benefits of tabs (as perceived by me), but she just says, "That's too complicated, I'll never use it." And that is that. She doesn't use them and has completely forgotten they are even there. She happlily surfs along in Chimera with 10 windows open and I happily surf along next to her with 2 windows, each with 5 tabs, open. We're both happy as clams.

I am very happy that Safari has implemented tabs. I hope they are off by default when Safari ships. I hope they make them better. And finally I hope that Guy Incognito, aka Pepi whaterver, aka Latex Babe of something or other, can just turn/leave them off when Safari is finally released and let all of us who prefer tabs, choose to turn them on.

[Sharky K.]

Apple could be really innovative at this area.

I really would like to know how OmniGroup is going to solve this problem.

[Visnaut]

Originally posted by Developer:
If they are there, people will use them. And that will cause them all the trouble outlined above, making their lifes more complicated than it could be.
That's the opposite of what the Mac once stood for - ease of use.

For the love of God, who is anyone to decide whether a feature they do not use will cause grief for people who do? You and others like yourself seem to have the misguided notion that your personal preferences, no matter how you justify them, are just that: personal choice.

Myself, and i'm sure others who like tabbed browsing, respect people for their preferences. However, you and others who oppose tabbed browsing at any cost make me sick with your be-all and end-all rhetoric.

[drainyoo]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
Apple could be really innovative at this area.

I really would like to know how OmniGroup is going to solve this problem.

Innovative about what? Its Tabs for crying out loud. What else do you want them to do with it? I think it works perfectly. If you dont like them dont use em.

[gorickey]

Safari has tabs?

I hate them.

I like them.

I will use them.

I won't touch them.

Don't like? Don't use.

Okay, that sounds up this thread...WOO HOO!

[kman42]

Originally posted by drainyoo:
Innovative about what? Its Tabs for crying out loud. What else do you want them to do with it? I think it works perfectly. If you dont like them dont use em.

I think his point was simply that most people like the functionality of tabs, but aren't necessarily tied to the implementation. Instead of tabs, Apple could have used a drawer with thumbnails or a list of open pages. There have been lots of ideas proposed.

I personally don't have a problem with using tabs for the implementation of these features, but I also probably wouldn't care if they did it some other way.

I love tabs because they allow me to open many bookmarks simultaneously with just a single double click and they allow me to organize my work by categories. Plus, they eliminate clutter. When I switched to Safari I found myself with a ton of windows open and lots of duplicates. Never happens with tabs.

I'm really annoyed by the flame war over tabs. Where do people get off saying that just becuase they don't like tabs that no one else should have the opportunity to use them? The argument that users will get confused is specious at best and I have never run into any issues with tabs that have made me wish I didn't use them. People have different needs and behaviors and the functionality of tabs suits many people. I can't believe that there are people here who are actually trying to convince me that tabs aren't useful for me. They are. Period. Otherwise I wouldn't use them. It's like trying to tell someone their opinion is wrong.

If you have a better IMPLEMENTATION idea for the functionality that tabs offer, then that is a legitimate topic and I would love to hear about it. But telling me that I am wrong for finding the functionality useful is just ridiculous. The argumentative attitudes on these forums is getting quite tiring.

kman

[Peter]

Originally posted by gorickey:
Safari has tabs?

I hate them.

I like them.

I will use them.

I won't touch them.

Don't like? Don't use.

Okay, that sounds up this thread...WOO HOO!

he summed up the thread.
Hopefully Safari will have the option for tabbed, also when you open a link in a new tab, Safari shouldn't switch to it. Personal preference.

[curmi]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
I just want someone to come up with a better alternative. Apple has come up with some very cool interfaces such as iTunes and iPhoto (the concept at least...the speed of the interface is a different story), I don't see why they can't come up with some better idea than the lame tab idea that's been following Hyatt's wake since he's been in browser dev.

This is exactly my point from way back at the start of this discussion.

I'm not against tabs at all. I find them very useful in a browser. I just want to see something better because it is very clear that the textual tabs as implemented don't work well with more than a few open sites, and go against HI guidelines in general.

Apple seem to have just gone with what everyone else is doing. It is GREAT that we finally have tabs, it just isn't great that Apple didn't try to innovate and improve on the idea.

This thread by the way is very funny. Some of Pepi's comments are classic.

[JLL]

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
Hopefully Safari will have the option for tabbed, also when you open a link in a new tab, Safari shouldn't switch to it. Personal preference.

Cmd-Shift-Click

[Ed De]

Here's a simple idea for improving tabs that i've not seen mentioned elsewhere. How about, rather than showing the page title (which is often too long to fit without being truncated), the tab shows the bookmark name for the page.

Obviously, the page needs to have been bookmarked at some point in the past, and the bookmark name has to be shorter than the page title for the whole thing to be worthwhile.

I suppose the main benefit would be for a window of those pages that you regularly visit - as these will already be bookmarked, and you will have chosen short names so they fit neatly on your bookmarks bar / menus...

As an example, Slashdot would go from "Slashdot: Ne ... hat splatters" to "/.", which is how it is bookmarked on my machine.

[Homer1946]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Hopefully this tired concept will stay dormant in the debug menu or removed completely from the code.

This always amazes me. Apple releases a browser, gets lots of feedback with many users saying how useful tabs are and how it improves there productivity and browsing experience, but with a few users responding that tabs are the worst idea ever.

Hmmm, what IS Apple to do. They want to respond to their users, want to give them the best browsing experience possible....(a lone voice from the back of the room...I've got it, why don't we put tabs in, but make them optional, that way the people who like them can use them, but the people who hate them never have to use them, sort of like adding and option for wood trim for a new car, people who hate wood trim will not order it, but the ones who like it will have the option...see, we can please everybody, I mean, who could possibly have a problem with that!)

Another guy, the guy still wearing his pirate shirt from the original Apple days speaks up, "Does anybody here have a new, different, and better idea about how we can do tabs"...nobody speaks..."then I suggest that we don't include tabs, even as an option. If it's not a new Apple way of doing things, its not good enough, who cares if many of our users like the way tabs are currently implemented, if nobody has in brilliant, better idea. Tabs were not invented at Apple, so we shouldn't use them!"

Two guys at the front of the room talking, "I thought we fired all those guys"..."We did, but we keep him around to fetch pizza"."

I like tabs. I have not heard anybody suggest a better solution (at least that I thought was better) that doesn't introduce huge complications.

Why is this so controversial. The same people who complain bitterly about the OPTION of tabs seem to be the same people who complain bout the lack of options.

So, explain it to me. How is adding an option, that many users love, and that you don't like, and aren't going to use, bad. Don't explain why you don't like tabs, why tabs are bad, or how tabs could be better, but rather why an option, which many users like as is, and is an option, is bad.

-R

[gerbnl]

What an utterly pointless thread is this. Damn, i feel like i'm in the lounge!

Hey brighten up guys!

[Developer]

Originally posted by Homer1946:
I have not heard anybody suggest a better solution (at least that I thought was better) that doesn't introduce huge complications.

Then it's time for you to start listening.

[mishap]

Originally posted by gerbnl:
What an utterly pointless thread is this. Damn, i feel like i'm in the lounge!

Hey brighten up guys!

i second that.
This thread is a mess.

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
My eyes...they burn!!!!

Hyatt managed to convince Apple or whoever that his tab concept is a good one? I can't believe it.

The tabs look like sh!t too. They don't look attached to the page itself but rather to the interface making things look very, very odd.

I was hoping for some smarter tabbing method. Maybe something that would allow to group like-tabs. Movable t. But this? It reeks of unoriginality.

Hyatt is retarded. Thanks Apple.

Why are you calling Hyatt a retard, retard? AFAIK, he had very little to do with the tabs on Chimera (which were borrowed from Opera & Mozilla anyway).

And he doesn't actually work on the UI of Safari. He works on the rendering engine.

The reason they've implemented tabs, is because that's what most people want - not some stupid drawer with snapshots of webpages.

[macmike42]

Guy: shut up.

Anyway, I just got home and tried the new v62. WTF? Those tabs are the ugliest damn things I've ever seen. I sure hope this wasn't an "intentional leak". I mean GOD DAMN, there is nothing right with them. Consider:

1. They are up-freaking-side down! I thought I could be mistaken here for a moment, but these tabs do not seem to manipulate the piece of the user interface to which they are attached, which is the bookmark bar.

2. They use a non-standard brushed metal color for the inactive part of the control, and the standard window background color with no separation of any kind for the active control. What does it *MEAN*?

3. If you thought truncation was bad, how about grey text on a grey control with grey separator lines and a grey background? "But Mike," you say "There are lots of shades of grey!" Tell that to Apple.

4. Speaking of truncation...page names are truncated in the middle! Is this SafariX 10.0? Also, the damn things start out about an inch and a quarter wide, they don't grow, but they do shrink!

5. Why must the window change size when the tab bar first appears and again when it disappears? OK, I have an inkling of why, but no other browser does that, and no one has complained (except Guy, you ass).

6. I don't remember if it was like this before, but the contextual menu has "download link" directly under "open link in new tab". This would cause me to accidentally download several hundred tangent links per day. The menu needs a separator.

...and I FOCKING LOVE tabs.

</rant>

I realize I'm talking about a leaked beta, but seriously, if this is what I have to look forward to, Camino has got nothing to worry about.

[gorickey]

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
The reason they've implemented tabs, is because that's what most people want - not some stupid drawer with snapshots of webpages.

Now that would be an example of "Scrapbook" from IE, a much needed and desired feature IMHO for any browser.

[macmike42]

Originally posted by gorickey:
Now that would be an example of "Scrapbook" from IE, a much needed and desired feature IMHO for any browser.

That IS a much needed feature, but he was talking about the whole "minimize web pages to a drawer instead of tabs idea". Which is obviously such a brilliant idea that you need a pair of peril-sensitive sunglasses to look straight at it.

[OAW]

Personally I would have liked to see Safari implement "multi-page single window" browsing via a vertical pane that slides inward from the right side. This pane would contain icons/thumbnails of the open pages. There could also be a "toggle" switch on the right hand side of the Bookmarks bar to show/hide the pane. This would be a lot more intuitive than the approach Safari appears to be taking as it would "fit" with the way the Bookmarks Window is accessed.

The whole "multi-page single window" feature is very convenient and just as it is when it comes to sex ... you aren't always going to get "supermodel" material so you simply take it as you can get it! So, if Safari implements this feature via tabs ... then oh well. I guess I'd prefer to have a less than stellar implementation of a feature rather than no feature at all!

Having said all that, the upside down look of the tabs is a bit, uh ... "strange". It's not bad if you don't have a Bookmarks Bar as is seen on the ThinkSecret screenshots. In this case, it appears that the tab is associated with the URL field which sort of makes sense. However, when you have a Bookmarks Bar the tab isn't really attached to anything. I mean, it's functional ... but far from elegant.

If I'm lucky, Apple will reconsider and go with a vertical pane approach as I described above. But if not, I won't lose any sleep over the "tabbed" approach.

OAW

[billybob]

Pepi, shut the **** up already.

[vmpaul]

I like the Tabs in the beta. Very simple.

I have folders of Bookmarks in my Bookmarks Bar. I wish there was a way to select one of those Bookmarks and have it generate a new Tabbed Window.

It always takes the front-most Window.

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by macmike42:
That IS a much needed feature, but he was talking about the whole "minimize web pages to a drawer instead of tabs idea". Which is obviously such a brilliant idea that you need a pair of peril-sensitive sunglasses to look straight at it.

Indeed, that is what I meant. The reasons why tabs work are :-

1. Browsing is different from any other form of computer use in that it generates new windows at a fairly constant rate as you use the application, many of which will stay open.

2. Since it is different, and since it can generate so many windows it needs it's own peculiar form of window management.

3. Any UI used for window management has to take up as little space as possible, and has to be rooted to the main viewer window. Otherwise nobody will use it.

If you consider the above points, it's easy to see that tabs (or something very similar) are the only logical conclusion.

If you have an alternative that doesn't violate my point 3 Guy I'd be glad to hear it.

[OAW]

Originally posted by OAW:
Personally I would have liked to see Safari implement "multi-page single window" browsing via a vertical pane that slides inward from the right side. This pane would contain icons/thumbnails of the open pages. There could also be a "toggle" switch on the right hand side of the Bookmarks bar to show/hide the pane. This would be a lot more intuitive than the approach Safari appears to be taking as it would "fit" with the way the Bookmarks Window is accessed.

The whole "multi-page single window" feature is very convenient and just as it is when it comes to sex ... you aren't always going to get "supermodel" material so you simply take it as you can get it! So, if Safari implements this feature via tabs ... then oh well. I guess I'd prefer to have a less than stellar implementation of a feature rather than no feature at all!

Having said all that, the upside down look of the tabs is a bit, uh ... "strange". It's not bad if you don't have a Bookmarks Bar as is seen on the ThinkSecret screenshots. In this case, it appears that the tab is associated with the URL field which sort of makes sense. However, when you have a Bookmarks Bar the tab isn't really attached to anything. I mean, it's functional ... but far from elegant.

If I'm lucky, Apple will reconsider and go with a vertical pane approach as I described above. But if not, I won't lose any sleep over the "tabbed" approach.

OAW

The more I look at the Safari screenshot the more I dislike the look of it. I really wish Apple would go with a vertical pane (not a drawer) approach. Imagine this ...

1. A "toggle" button on the right side of the Bookmarks Bar. Functions just like the Bookmark Window toggle.

2. You know how when you click the Bookmarks Bar toggle button and show the whole Bookmarks windows? Imagine that window reversed. The small "Collections" column would be on the right side ... closer to the scroll bars and the window resize control. It would titled "Open Web Pages" or something like that.

3. The "Open Web Pages" pane would contain icons/thumbnails and a page title of all open pages. See Preview to see how the visuals can change based upon the width of the pane and user preferences.

4. The remainder of the window would be dedicated to the webpage itself.

5. The "Open Web Pages" pane would have a circle resizer control. Same design here.

6. There would be a "+" button at the bottom to open a new "tab". Same design here.

7. The "Open Web Pages" pane could be left open or closed at the discretion of the user. Maybe even have an "Autohide" preference to close automatically after selecting an icon in the pane. Regardless, you can have multiple webpages open and not sacrifice any space ... vertically or horizontally if you close the pane!

Don't get me wrong. As I said before, I'll use the "tabs" if that's what Apple gives us. I suppose I'll get used to the look. But IMHO, the current look is just plain ugly and counter-intuitive. I don't consider myself to be an interface design guru or anything, but I do know good design when I see it. The Bookmarks Window and it's associated toggle button is good design. I really think Apple should go with that sort of approach for "multi-page single window" browsing as I've described for consistency if nothing else.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this would look and function better than simple tabs?

OAW

[AKcrab]

I don't think that is a better solution. I'll sacrifice 20 pixels of height from my main browser window for tabs, rather than have a drawer opening and closing, moving and resizing my windows.

I think the tabs could be more visually appealing, but I don't think your suggestion is a step forward.