[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

Ouch you cut me deep... though I am curious as to how my religious beliefs that are fundamental to Christianity, or rather accepted by all groups that claim to be Christian (I mean... that's what Dogma means...) are easy to grasp. I didn't even mention the divinity of Christ, His virgin conception and birth. Or the Trinity.

Though if you're using dogma improperly... you can think of my phrase the same way when my mom asks me why using a Mac would be better than her PC. It would be faster, Exposé would help her, Safari would keep viruses out, but explaining that to her with her limited frame of reference is very difficult. I don't mean it as an insult.

Dogma:

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

Passion:

4 a (1) : EMOTION <his ruling passion is greed> (2) plural : the emotions as distinguished from reason b : intense, driving, or overmastering feeling or conviction c : an outbreak of anger
5 a : ardent affection : LOVE b : a strong liking or desire for or devotion to some activity, object, or concept c : sexual desire d : an object of desire or deep interest


You may not be able to pick it out from these definitions, but one generally is used in a negative connotation, while the other isn't.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

Facts rarely win people to a saving faith.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make when we were debating rationalism vs. post-modern philosophy, which you seemed to sort of blow off.

If you think that you can't rationalize your faith to somebody, why do you try? Is it purely self-serving?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by DeathMan

Quoted for emphasis. I couldn't read your last post all the way through. Please try to read through it before you hit the post button.

I usually do... I've edited that post. Sorry!

[Salty]

Simply because the dictionary will help those who have chosen to use a word improperly doesn't mean that I should do the same.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by besson3c

That's exactly the point I was trying to make when we were debating rationalism vs. post-modern philosophy, which you seemed to sort of blow off.

If you think that you can't rationalize your faith to somebody, why do you try? Is it purely self-serving?

It's not self serving. It lets someone else know. And sometimes you can fill in the blanks they don't understand. Nobody comes to faith in a box either. Simply because I can't make you fully understand every concept in my faith doesn't mean i shouldn't try. Cause on a few things I might get it right and it might click.
Or you might hear something that doesn't make sense one day, and years after you've accepted Christ, what someone said will help.

But in some cases yes sharing one's own faith often helps the sharer more than anyone else in that instant. However the person may be honing their skills and some day will actually be able to have made corrections by trial and error and be able to communicate the gospel effectively to someone who actually wants to know.
Not to mention being a closet Christian sucks.

[DeathMan]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I usually do... I've edited that post. Sorry!

Sorry besson, that was directed toward superchicken.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Salty

Not to mention being a closet Christian sucks.

But imposing your belief system on others is rude as well.

It's the same thing as if a gay guy, for example, starts telling you about the joys of sex (from his pov) with another dude. He may think it's what you want to hear but in reality, you don't want to read about buggery and other stuff here and there.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

Simply because the dictionary will help those who have chosen to use a word improperly doesn't mean that I should do the same.

To spell it out:

There is a difference between your dogmatic viewpoints, and something you are passionate about. Me evangelizing the Mac is simply far less intimidating than you, or anybody else, pushing dogmatic one-size-fits-all religious beliefs.

Obviously, we have hit a stopping point. I don't have much more to say, I don't think I'll pursue this conversation much further...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

It's not self serving. It lets someone else know. And sometimes you can fill in the blanks they don't understand. Nobody comes to faith in a box either. Simply because I can't make you fully understand every concept in my faith doesn't mean i shouldn't try. Cause on a few things I might get it right and it might click.
Or you might hear something that doesn't make sense one day, and years after you've accepted Christ, what someone said will help.

But in some cases yes sharing one's own faith often helps the sharer more than anyone else in that instant. However the person may be honing their skills and some day will actually be able to have made corrections by trial and error and be able to communicate the gospel effectively to someone who actually wants to know.
Not to mention being a closet Christian sucks.

This argument is extremely circular and is starting to tire me.

I suggest picking up a history book, you might learn about the dangers pushing political dogma has done in our history. Even if you aren't pushing your beliefs at gunpoint (like during the Inquisitions), pushing dogmatic ideology is almost as bad.

How does the Christian church approach religious wars? Do they view them as tragic mistakes, or in a righteous light?

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Randman

But imposing your belief system on others is rude as well.

It's the same thing as if a gay guy, for example, starts telling you about the joys of sex (from his pov) with another dude. He may think it's what you want to hear but in reality, you don't want to read about buggery and other stuff here and there.

I'm responded to you yes, but please don't take everything written bellow as directed towards you, a lot of it isn't I just got on a rant.

There's a difference between being upfront with who you are and imposing one's beliefs. I have been accused in the past of trying to force my beliefs on people. Never mind the fact that I can't really force you to believe anything, most of the time I have never even been trying to make that other person decide to try and live a life better. I have occasionally yes tried to push people towards making good choices. I do this in all kinds of ways, I have a friend who is a Christian right now who is trying to get her life back on track, she's probably going to get an iBook at my recommendation, as well today I tried to convince her to come to prayer meeting with me because she hasn't been to many Christian times of worship recently which offer a time of refreshment and reflection. Today she decided to ignore me despite me strongly pushing her towards what I feel is a right decision for her. Am I wrong to do so? No. And she knows I do it because I care about her, and she often will thank me for it because I have often pushed her towards ideas that she wouldn't have readily picked that were actually good for her, IE maybe you shouldn't invest so much emotionally in one guy because honestly he's not good for you and I think you know that.
Fact is sure there are some people that live in bubbles and don't interact with other people. But for those of us that do interact with people. Pushing others towards certain decisions is part of showing you care about someone. Think of your best friends, odds are they try and influence you in some way, and odds are you try and influence them in some ways. This is not bad!
Often people who have chosen to simply not to align themselves with one religion will view others trying to help them make up their mind as PUSHING something. Which in some cases is true. However it has become incredibly common in today's world to accuse others of having wronged you simply because they wanted to steer you in one direction. Granted some people do not know their place and don't know when to let you walk on your own two feet and what not. But there are far fewer of those people pushing Christianity than is often pretended. Sure there are a few loud mouths that are rude, and don't care about the people they're talking to. But I get really frustrated when I hear other people accuse people of trying to push Christianity on someone as soon as they hear the name of Jesus. It's bloody stupid. And to be quite frankly if you cared at all about a person you probably shouldn't mind hearing what they believe, odds are you've already told them what you believe

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

I'm responded to you yes, but please don't take everything written bellow as directed towards you, a lot of it isn't I just got on a rant.

There's a difference between being upfront with who you are and imposing one's beliefs. I have been accused in the past of trying to force my beliefs on people. Never mind the fact that I can't really force you to believe anything, most of the time I have never even been trying to make that other person decide to try and live a life better. I have occasionally yes tried to push people towards making good choices. I do this in all kinds of ways, I have a friend who is a Christian right now who is trying to get her life back on track, she's probably going to get an iBook at my recommendation, as well today I tried to convince her to come to prayer meeting with me because she hasn't been to many Christian times of worship recently which offer a time of refreshment and reflection. Today she decided to ignore me despite me strongly pushing her towards what I feel is a right decision for her. Am I wrong to do so? No. And she knows I do it because I care about her, and she often will thank me for it because I have often pushed her towards ideas that she wouldn't have readily picked that were actually good for her, IE maybe you shouldn't invest so much emotionally in one guy because honestly he's not good for you and I think you know that.
Fact is sure there are some people that live in bubbles and don't interact with other people. But for those of us that do interact with people. Pushing others towards certain decisions is part of showing you care about someone. Think of your best friends, odds are they try and influence you in some way, and odds are you try and influence them in some ways. This is not bad!
Often people who have chosen to simply not to align themselves with one religion will view others trying to help them make up their mind as PUSHING something. Which in some cases is true. However it has become incredibly common in today's world to accuse others of having wronged you simply because they wanted to steer you in one direction. Granted some people do not know their place and don't know when to let you walk on your own two feet and what not. But there are far fewer of those people pushing Christianity than is often pretended. Sure there are a few loud mouths that are rude, and don't care about the people they're talking to. But I get really frustrated when I hear other people accuse people of trying to push Christianity on someone as soon as they hear the name of Jesus. It's bloody stupid. And to be quite frankly if you cared at all about a person you probably shouldn't mind hearing what they believe, odds are you've already told them what you believe

You can argue the definition of pushing your beliefs on people, rationalize it, argue semantics, turn it upside down and examine it in all sorts of ways, but at the end of the day the effect is still the same.

Just as you understand that you need to open up your heart and mind to understand God, in this case, you need to open up your mind and recognize the effect your preaching has on people here.

I've obviously been incredibly outspoken on this issue, I'll let somebody else take over for a while... I'm assuming I speak for several others here, maybe I shouldn't...

[Salty]

Originally Posted by besson3c

You can argue the definition of pushing your beliefs on people, rationalize it, argue semantics, turn it upside down and examine it in all sorts of ways, but at the end of the day the effect is still the same.

Just as you understand that you need to open up your heart and mind to understand God, in this case, you need to open up your mind and recognize the effect your preaching has on people here.

I've obviously been incredibly outspoken on this issue, I'll let somebody else take over for a while... I'm assuming I speak for several others here, maybe I shouldn't...

I would hardly suggest that what I do here is preach... actually to suggest that I preach here really... skews the meaning of the word.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

I would hardly suggest that what I do here is preach... actually to suggest that I preach here really... skews the meaning of the word.

Why don't you ask others here what they think? I'm just basing my assumptions upon my observations, I could be wrong. If I'm the only one that feels this way, I'll shut up so that I don't annoy others.

Start a poll.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Why don't you ask others here what they think? I'm just basing my assumptions upon my observations, I could be wrong. If I'm the only one that feels this way, I'll shut up so that I don't annoy others.

Start a poll.

No posts about forum members sorry

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Salty

I would hardly suggest that what I do here is preach... actually to suggest that I preach here really... skews the meaning of the word.

Before this conversation winds down, I am actually curious to here what you have to say about religion's contributions to the various wars in our history, and how Christian ideologues look at these wars from a historical stance (i.e. travesty/mistake vs. righteous)

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by Salty

...frick...)

You say "frick," but God knows you mean "f*ck."

[greenamp]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Before this conversation winds down, I am actually curious to here what you have to say about religion's contributions to the various wars in our history, and how Christian ideologues look at these wars from a historical stance (i.e. travesty/mistake vs. righteous)

12 pages, a move to the political lounge, 3 members swearing off the political lounge for ever, 12 new forum identities, and an eventual thread lock.

Gee thanks for going there.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I've obviously been incredibly outspoken on this issue, I'll let somebody else take over for a while... I'm assuming I speak for several others here, maybe I shouldn't...

I think many here agree.

Most of us have just completely given up on reading his posts.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Before this conversation winds down, I am actually curious to here what you have to say about religion's contributions to the various wars in our history, and how Christian ideologues look at these wars from a historical stance (i.e. travesty/mistake vs. righteous)

Depends on which war. The wars that Israelites fought in against the occupants of the land of Canna I would say were justified wars, and ultimately good. The wars we fight today are stupid in the sense that all humanity should be able to get along and not oppress one another. Though that's expecting a lot more than we'll see this side of a near earth.
Wars like the crusades, I have a prof that likes to point out that the Muslims actually started it, which from what I understand is true. Most likely he's done some reading from the era and has decided that he wants to at least defend the genuine Christians of the time (though much of the behaviour of the people involved in those wars I imagine was far from Christian). I think hundreds of years ago wars had a lot more civility to them, partly because countries weren't the same way they were. I favour those types of wars where you saw someone's face before you ended their lives. I think today's wars are a reflection of the hearts of today's people. A war far away out of sight out of mind, pushed by people who will never see the faces of the dead, for reasons far from just. I don't think Americans should be in Iraq, at the same time I don't think that Americans should have needed to go to Iraq. And I think that very much someone did need to go and stop what was happening there.
In other words. The ideal is something we don't have, and won't have until Christ returns. Until then you're going with what is the deepest shade of black.
As a Christian I hate the idea of an unsaved person dying. Be that in a war of somewhere else. I hate the idea of someone ruling someone else's life for them, be that as an occupying government, or as an ungodly boss at a fast food joint.
I look at things like the fact that as a Canadian if I go to Holland and tell some people that both my Grandfathers died in the war where Canada helped liberate them, I will be treated kindly as good in the sense that they remember a justice, and sad that the justice was needed to rectify an injustice.

I think the loss of life and the oppression of others is always a bad thing. Which is one reason why I will always make an effort to change the minds of others to a way of thinking that focuses on God instead of themselves, sees others as co-image barers, worthy of the love we would want to have given to us. And which is why I hate to see other people carelessly hurt or even try and hurt someone else. That is my view on not just war, but man made pain in general.
On the flip side, I view it as good because it helps me see how much better God is than what I would have without Him.

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Before this conversation winds down, I am actually curious to here what you have to say about religion's contributions to the various wars in our history, and how Christian ideologues look at these wars from a historical stance (i.e. travesty/mistake vs. righteous)

If you are speaking of The Crusades™, you have to understand the pressure being put on Christendom by Islam. The Islamic hordes had conquered all the previously christian lands in North Africa, Southwest Asia, Asia Minor, Spain, and there was a very good chance they would strike into the heartland of Europe next (indeed, there had been a few attempts).

The Crusades started as defensive wars, to reverse some of the gains made by Islam and liberate some of the christian lands conquered by the jihadists. Of course, there were some bad apples, people that used the cause as an excuse to burn, pillage, rape, etc.

And IMHO, to excuse the Islamic wars of conquest while simultaneously condemning the crusdades is pretty ignorant. Not that I'm accusing anybody here of that, but it IS a pretty common attitude.

[Salty]

Originally Posted by jcadam

If you are speaking of The Crusades™, you have to understand the pressure being put on Christendom by Islam. The Islamic hordes had conquered all the previously christian lands in North Africa, Southwest Asia, Asia Minor, Spain, and there was a very good chance they would strike into the heartland of Europe next (indeed, there had been a few attempts).

The Crusades started as defensive wars, to reverse some of the gains made by Islam and liberate some of the christian lands conquered by the jihadists. Of course, there were some bad apples, people that used the cause as an excuse to burn, pillage, rape, etc.

And IMHO, to excuse the Islamic wars of conquest while simultaneously condemning the crusdades is pretty ignorant. Not that I'm accusing anybody here of that, but it IS a pretty common attitude.

Glad someone knows what they're talking about... you sound kinda like Tim... (only he's a bit more plump and overly well spoken). I hate it when people ask about the crusades... I have done like no reading on the subject... I should just take a course.

[Kevin]

Till I read this thread. I've never seen anyone peer pressured into trying being gay.

"Come on... you know you want to.. come on just one time, I wont tell your mom..."

Buncha noodle gazers!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by greenamp

You say "frick," but God knows you mean "f*ck."

How do you know if God even cares?

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Kevin

How do you know if God even cares?

Now now Zimph, everyone knows swearing makes baby Jesus cry!

[Salty]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Till I read this thread. I've never seen anyone peer pressured into trying being gay.

"Come on... you know you want to.. come on just one time, I wont tell your mom..."

Buncha noodle gazers!

Apparently if you have a carrier in theatre or dance there's lots of guys that'll try and pressure you into it... those dang evil gays, always trying to force their beliefs... and penises on you!

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Salty

always trying to force their beliefs... and penises on you!

Never had it happen to me.

Been hit on many times at gay bars.

But nothing annoying.

[Salty]

We had someone speak in chapel once (I swear chapel was more a time of day that the school thought they should have and later decided to try and fill it with singing and... whatever the heck they could find to fill the space so it seems Christian) who graduated as a theatre major. Apparently he's found it really frustrating because there are sooo many forceful gay guys that will not get off his back about at least, "trying it'. I think part of this comes from the mentality that straight guys just haven't realized that they'll enjoy gay sex. Which of course if you turned it around on the same guys that they just haven't tried the right kind of sex with a woman... well that's just rude and offensive.
It's nice to know that no matter what kind of person you are... odds are there are at least a few traits you share with someone who's stupid. Be you gay, straight, black, white, mac user, windows user, fat, skinny, or even Steve... wait... I mean... Steve is perfect... all hail the mighty Steve...

FRICK I NEED TO GO TO BED!

[ManOfSteal]

Originally Posted by MindFad

Blog Comments:

23+4 days, 2 minutes/M/Floor'duh

u?

Posted by: MindFad at 12:55AM, 08/08/05

Blog Comments:

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Posted by: Poker online at 08/08/05, 2004 11:03 AM

Crap, we have no SPAM protection filters on the blog?

[turtle777]

I posted in this legendary thread.

-t

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by ManOfSteal

Blog Comments:

Visit Poker online http://casino.rtq2.com/poker-online.html Poker online for fun and pleasure. Go over and play Poker online http://casino.rtq2.com/poker-online.html Poker online.

Posted by: Poker online at 08/08/05, 2004 11:03 AM

Blog Comments:

Dang, but you would know what my hand is. Your time machine is a few hours better than mine.

Posted by: MindFad at 08/08/05, 2004 10:47 AM

[d4nth3m4n]

there we go.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Salty

Now now Zimph, everyone knows swearing makes baby Jesus cry!

I thought that was lying that made him cry.

Is that where rain comes from?

[Randman]

Originally Posted by turtle777

I posted in this thread.

Fixed™.

[MindFad]

Originally Posted by Randman

Fixed™.

No.

[GranolaBoy]

Why doesn't someone (salty) start a thread "What is your experience with people evangelizing at you?"

I think that's a delightful idea. That way you can get direct feedback about how people feel about it and provide your own views.

My view: I think it's unfair that when a christian provides his opinion on a topic he's "preaching" but when anyone else does it's just their opinion. I know there IS a difference in the way it's presented sometimes, but other times y'all are just too sensitive.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Till I read this thread. I've never seen anyone peer pressured into trying being gay.

"Come on... you know you want to.. come on just one time, I wont tell your mom..."

Buncha noodle gazers!

Not pressured into *being* gay - merely into accepting the obvious.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by analogika

Not pressured into *being* gay - merely into accepting the obvious.

Can't believe anyone could believe we are talking someone into being gay

Idiotic.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Can't believe anyone could believe we would NOT be talking someone into being gay.

Fixinated.

-t

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Fixinated.

-t

Pff, name ONE occurrence.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Pff, name ONE occurrence.

Your sig ?

-t

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Your sig ?

-t

and

"C'mon chicken, come out of teh closet alread!"

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Your sig ?

-t

Actually as you haven't figured it out yet it is making fun of the fact that people say homosexuality is a choice.

So in fact you just re-enfoced my point. nice.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

So in fact you just re-enfoced my point. nice.

Sure.



-t

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

and

"C'mon chicken, come out of teh closet alread!"

Ya but it is based on HIS OWN homosexual remarks over the years. I don't see anyone picking a heterosexual person at random and telling him to be gay.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

and

"C'mon chicken, come out of teh closet alread!"

His sig is sarcasm.

And coming out of the closet means ACCEPTING the fact that one IS gay.

And poor Salty is just confused by Jesus. He'll come to terms eventually, I'm sure.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by GranolaBoy

My view: I think it's unfair that when a christian provides his opinion on a topic he's "preaching" but when anyone else does it's just their opinion. I know there IS a difference in the way it's presented sometimes, but other times y'all are just too sensitive.

Yes, but some people are insecure. And feel EVERYONE is preaching at them.

Originally Posted by analogika

Not pressured into *being* gay - merely into accepting the obvious.

Obvious? What do you really know about him? He could be screwing with you guys!

Seriously, if you think you can tell if someone is gay by reading their posts on the internet. I really don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by analogika

And poor Salty is just confused by Jesus. He'll come to terms eventually, I'm sure.

I think that is a projection if I have ever saw one.

in the true sense.

[ort888]

I also need to stop telling people about MacNN. Now people think I'm a Christian!

[Kevin]

I believe the homosexuals outnumber the Christians here. But I wouldn't bet on it either way.

[turtle777]

So, you're either gay or Christian. How sad this black & white thing has become...

-t

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by turtle777

So, you're either gay or Christian. How sad this blac & white thing has become...

-t

I know tons of guys that are both.