[Parky]

Do you think the delay in releasing iLife '07 is due to the fact that it might be included as the 'secret' part of Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard).

It would make a great deal of sense to me to merge the two together, after all they come together when you buy a new Mac.

It would also sell a lot more copies of Leopard and get more users on the latest version of iLife in one move.

With such tight integration between the OS and iLife being more and more required, it might be that you must have Leopard to run iLife '07, hence sell them as one richly featured OS.

Steve also did say in a Keynote "We are giving you more things included with Leopard", and he referred specifically to 'Front Row' and 'Photo Booth' which are machine specific rather than OS specific. In effect you can't have either unless you have a Mac with the capabilities. Steve did seem to indicate that both would be in Leopard and therefore can be used by all. Maybe this will be the same with iLife.

Just a thought,

Ian

[Chuckit]

In the sense that it will require Leopard, yes. In the sense that you won't have to pay extra money, I doubt it.

[Parky]

Personally I think it will be 'included' with Leopard.

[Eug]

Not a chance.

iLife '07 will be included on new Leopard Macs, but not with Leopard itself. IMHO of course.

[besson3c]

On top of all of the businessney sorts of decisions here, it does not make sense for Apple to start supporting and thinking of iLife as an OS component, because iLife is a series of standalone applications. If they bundle iLife, they will have to support iLife as a part of the OS.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

On top of all of the businessney sorts of decisions here, it does not make sense for Apple to start supporting and thinking of iLife as an OS component, because iLife is a series of standalone applications. If they bundle iLife, they will have to support iLife as a part of the OS.

Maybe, but on the other hand every single Mac ships with iLife, so that means they support it for all new Mac buyers anyway.

[Parky]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Maybe, but on the other hand every single Mac ships with iLife, so that means they support it for all new Mac buyers anyway.

My point exactly and they support it every time it is purchased.

So what is the difference if they support it when purchased with Leopard. They would only offer the same support levels they do now, there would be no more extra demand.

Maybe they will increase the price as well to $199. Giving users a saving overall.

Ian

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Parky 

My point exactly.

Yes, but that still doesn't the fact that they've seen no reason to bundle until now so why change? Not including iLife means:

1) They continue to generate revenue selling copies of iLife. Those software revenues are not insigificant.
2) They don't have to include an extra dual-layer install DVD for iLife in every copy of the OS they ship.
3) The latest iLife being bundled with new machines provides an added incentive for consumers to buy new hardware, instead of paying to upgrade an old machine.

[mitchell_pgh]

The trick is... if you simply charge $200 for iLife, you are going to have two types of people. Those happy about the "cheap" OS + Application bundle and those (like me) that only use iTunes (Free) and iPhoto (or one other application). $70 for one application seems a little excessive. I guess you could say the same thing for Office, but you can always choose to pay the crazy price of JUST Word or Excel... but they usually make it worth buying the package.

[mac128k-1984]

I think iLife will be rolled out at the same time as Leopard but it will not be part of or included with Leopard. Why - well why should apple eliminate a revenue stream.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

The trick is... if you simply charge $200 for iLife, you are going to have two types of people. Those happy about the "cheap" OS + Application bundle and those (like me) that only use iTunes (Free) and iPhoto (or one other application). $70 for one application seems a little excessive. I guess you could say the same thing for Office, but you can always choose to pay the crazy price of JUST Word or Excel... but they usually make it worth buying the package.

Yes, a $199 price for Leopard single-user would p!ss off a LOT of people.

[Parky]

Originally Posted by mac128k-1984 

I think iLife will be rolled out at the same time as Leopard but it will not be part of or included with Leopard. Why - well why should apple eliminate a revenue stream.

Because it may actually increase revenue :-

More sales of Leopard because people get more for their money.
Better customer offering
Because Microsoft have included similar apps in the Vista OS, which makes Apple look less competitive.

By just tying iLife '07 to Leopard you are already locking out many users who won't buy Leopard and iLife.

[Parky]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yes, a $199 price for Leopard single-user would p!ss off a LOT of people.

Even if it came with iLife '07?

Maybe they will not increase the price, but just be more competitive.

What we need to consider is :-

1. How many people by iLife but don't upgrade the OS
2. How many people update the OS but don't buy iLife.

Ian

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Parky 

Even if it came with iLife '07?

Of course. iLife is worth about $0 to many people, especially when they have a perfectly functioning previous edition, or if they don't use iLife at all.

1. How many people by iLife but don't upgrade the OS

I dunno.

2. How many people update the OS but don't buy iLife.

Tons.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Parky 

1. How many people by iLife but don't upgrade the OS

Probably very few. People who want to upgrade iLife are already upgraders, so they'll tend to want their OS up-to-date as well (especially since iLife isn't backwards compatible very far, as a rule).

Originally Posted by Parky 

2. How many people update the OS but don't buy iLife.

Probably many. They'll just get a new version when they buy a new computer.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by Parky 

2. How many people update the OS but don't buy iLife.

I skipped iLife '06. There was absolutely no point getting it over iLife '05 for me. I will be upgrading to iLife '07 (should it actually be called that), but as a part of a new Mac purchase only.

Incidentally, iLife '05 will be staying as is on my current Powerbook, but I'll probably buy Leopard for it.

$199 for a dual package of OS plus iLife really would piss me off if there was no OS alone option.

[hmurchison2001]

Put me on record for stating that iLife and iWork 07 will both come with Leopard. My reasons are simple.

1. Both heavily require Leopard features. Apple will not backport to Tiger.
2. While Apple is reducing revenue streams they will be able to charge more for Leopard $149.99 is my guess.
3. A new heavily upgraded version of .mac will be delivered this year which offers much more revenue potential for Apple in the packaging of paid services. You notice how keen Apple has suddenly become on AJAX?

iWork needs to get some fast traction and the way to do this is to simply seed it with every Leopard copy. Whatever Apple's Leopard Top Secrets are it's clear that the changes are significant enough to hold them out and iWork/iLife until the last possible moment.

[Too Artificial]

From what I've read, the new iLife will rely heavily on new Leopard technologies, but I expect it will not be included as part of the OS. Just my opinion of course. We'll find out soon.

[Salty]

My guess is

Leopard 129
Leopard + iLife 169
Leopard + iWork 169
Leopard + iWork + iLife 199

It's my guess. I don't know for sure but I would not at all be surprised. The question really comes in whether or not Apple wants to continue iLife as a separate product or roll it all back in as part of the OS? It was part of the OS back in the Jaguar days. And if they see it as being something where they're more likely to sell a few less but at a higher price point, or a few more at a lower price point, you may see Apple go for the higher price point. It really all does depend.
It'd be easier to decide if we knew how many Apple sells each year. The problem with having not introduced it back in January is that a lot of people won't want to spend all that money on software in one shot. 200 dollars would be a LOT compared to planning on spending 130. I know I didn't mind shelling out for iLife, and iWork at the same time last year, I"m not sure that I'd want to shell out for all three at once.
I could see them for just this year rolling all three together and then moving to updating in June instead of January.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

Put me on record for stating that iLife and iWork 07 will both come with Leopard. My reasons are simple.

1. Both heavily require Leopard features. Apple will not backport to Tiger.

Many programs will require Leopard technologies. I don't think TextMate 2 will be included as part of Leopard.

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

3. A new heavily upgraded version of .mac will be delivered this year which offers much more revenue potential for Apple in the packaging of paid services. You notice how keen Apple has suddenly become on AJAX?

How on earth does that prove Apple will bundle iLife?

The only evidence I've seen that Apple might bundle iLife is Steve's statement about wanting to include "the whole package" or whatever it was — though he only named currently computer-specific programs like Photo Booth, Front Row and Comic Life.

[Parky]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Many programs will require Leopard technologies. I don't think TextMate 2 will be included as part of Leopard.


How on earth does that prove Apple will bundle iLife?

The only evidence I've seen that Apple might bundle iLife is Steve's statement about wanting to include "the whole package" or whatever it was — though he only named currently computer-specific programs like Photo Booth, Front Row and Comic Life.

"Comic Life" where did you get that from - it's not a Apple product and it WON"T be part of Leopard!

[Visualize]

Originally Posted by Parky 

"Comic Life" where did you get that from - it's not a Apple product and it WON"T be part of Leopard!

Well, it's part of my 10.4.4 Tiger disc(Intel iMac) Registered even.

[Parky]

Originally Posted by Visualize 

Well, it's part of my 10.4.4 Tiger disc(Intel iMac) Registered even.

It an App that Apple include with new computers along with some games, etc.

It will not be included with Leopard.

Ian

[imitchellg5]

Believe me, iLife '07 is not the "secret" part of Leopard. Something will parallel that coolness (there's a hint).

[Chuckit]

No offense, but how on earth would you know that?

[CatOne]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

No offense, but how on earth would you know that?

Obviously, with his 533 MHz G4, he's way on the inside track for both software and hardware!!!!

[lpkmckenna]

I think Leopard will include iLife. Here's my reasons:

1. Front Row v1 uses iPhoto for slideshows, even launching iPhoto if it's not running. Apple might have eliminated that dependancy, but maybe not.

2. Windows Vista includes iPhoto-like capabilities. Selling an OS with weaker photo skills doesn't sound like Apple's style to me. Steve promised "the complete package." Mac OS X without iPhoto is pretty damn incomplete.

3. Half of the iLife apps were originally free with the OS (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie). I think iLife was designed to increase revenue streams for Apple, which isn't as necessary now.

4. A Leopard + iLife package sounds an awful lot like "Vista Ultimate" to me, in both features and pricing. If Apple bundled iLife into Leopard for $149, it will be a punch to the gut to Microsoft.

5. It would really spur Leopard adoption.

6. I find it unlikely that iLife 07 would not require Leopard tech like Core Animation. Having Apple's most important apps not use that technology seems completely retarded to me. And selling iLife 07 to Leopard-only customers would guarantee low sales for iLife.

7. High iLife adoption would enable more purchases of AppleTV and/or the iPhone. A new iMovie could really help sell AppleTV.

If Apple continues to charge extra for iLife, QuickTime Pro, and dotMac, they will never shake their reputation for nickel&diming their customers to death. If iLife became part of the OS again, it would do a lot to reverse that.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

4. A Leopard + iLife package sounds an awful lot like "Vista Ultimate" to me, in both features and pricing. If Apple bundled iLife into Leopard for $149, it will be a punch to the gut to Microsoft.

One hundred fifty ****ing dollars for a suite of useless apps? Yeah, where do I sign up?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

One hundred fifty ****ing dollars for a suite of useless apps? Yeah, where do I sign up?

More like $20 bucks really, since the previous OS was $129.

Are you expecting a refund for XCode, SoundTrack Loop Utility, and Chess? You can bet grandpa didn't use those much, either.

Including X11 with Leopard but not including iPhoto = retarded.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Are you expecting a refund for XCode, SoundTrack Loop Utility, and Chess? You can bet grandpa didn't use those much, either.

And the price didn't get jacked up because of those, either. The last time I upgraded iMovie, the new version wound up completely sucking and I realized there was nothing wrong with the old version. I don't want to pay extra for a potentially harmful upgrade.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Including X11 with Leopard but not including iPhoto = retarded.

iPhoto comes with the computer. If it's included with the OS as well, great. If not, I still have it anyway.

[hmurchison2001]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Many programs will require Leopard technologies. I don't think TextMate 2 will be included as part of Leopard.

How on earth does that prove Apple will bundle iLife?

The only evidence I've seen that Apple might bundle iLife is Steve's statement about wanting to include "the whole package" or whatever it was — though he only named currently computer-specific programs like Photo Booth, Front Row and Comic Life.

My endgame isn't to prove anything. If iLife and iWork aren't Leopard only then there's no reason that they shouldn't not have been announced by now. Of course Jobs isn't going to tell anyone about iWork or iLife because both programs will likey utilize Apple's "Top Secret" features.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I think Leopard will include iLife. Here's my reasons:

3. Half of the iLife apps were originally free with the OS (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie). I think iLife was designed to increase revenue streams for Apple, which isn't as necessary now.

4. A Leopard + iLife package sounds an awful lot like "Vista Ultimate" to me, in both features and pricing. If Apple bundled iLife into Leopard for $149, it will be a punch to the gut to Microsoft.

5. It would really spur Leopard adoption.

7. High iLife adoption would enable more purchases of AppleTV and/or the iPhone. A new iMovie could really help sell AppleTV.

These above are my favorite points. I don't think Apple is as dependent on iLife revenue anymore. They're going to make a killing on the iPhone. My problem with iLife is this. Even with a 1.6Ghz DC mini I find iMovie and iDVD just too sluggish to have much fun. From what I've seen of Leopard there is hope that these apps become more responsive. I also think Apple is going to roll out new .mac features and embrace Web 2.0 functionality. I think they should offer a generous amount of "free beer" features and then spice those up with a lot of extra features with the paid version. I expect Apple to monetize iLife better. Push more calendars, offer tiered service for better hosting. There are ways to make money but you can't do this unless people have access to the software.

Apple's goal should be %90 Leopard install base by next summer. If you have to give away iWork and iLife for this goal then do it.

[parsec_kadets]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

If Apple continues to charge extra for iLife, QuickTime Pro, and dotMac, they will never shake their reputation for nickel&diming their customers to death. If iLife became part of the OS again, it would do a lot to reverse that.

One, I'm not even sure Apple has that reputation. I sure haven't seen any publications mention it. Impressions and comments made on internet forums are different than real world reputations, they should have taught you that in forum posting 101. Two, even if they do have that reputation, who says they even want to shake it? Mac sales are starting to take off right now, with Apple seeing solid market share gains just about every quarter. If your business model ain't broke, don't fix it.

These above are my favorite points. I don't think Apple is as dependent on iLife revenue anymore. They're going to make a killing on the iPhone.

Just because other products are successful doesn't mean that Apple will use that money to effectively subsidize other products and reduce their price. Don't forget that Apple, just like everyone else, is in the business of making money. If you're making more money than you have in the last decade you're probably not going to do anything to mess that up. Don't expect any major changes in Apple's pricing model anytime soon.

[Parky]

Seems that others are having the same idea (from ThinkSecret) :-

"Also scheduled for a June release now are new versions of Apple's iLife and iWork suites, which will pack extensive Leopard-dependent features. Sources say Apple continues to toy with the idea of bundling one or both suites with the new operating system free of charge in an effort to further play up the extra value and features Mac OS X offers over Microsoft's new Windows Vista.

In addition, there is a reasonable chance that Apple will drop its yearly naming convention for the software suites entirely, sources report, suggesting "'07" could be replaced with "Leopard Edition", or a similar naming convention that would free Apple from being tied to date-specific versions that appear older in consumer's minds as the calendar rolls over."