[decursive]

Originally posted by danielsh:
Hell, I'd buy it: speed and a cool lap in the summer months!

actually, based on how refrigeration works, your lap would be (give or take) incinerated.

[iDaver]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:

Oh did you notice that these also have 9 fan's and a case with so much cooling it is stupid... Good luck putting one in a PB...

Not knowing what I'm talking about but guessing anyway...

I'll bet all those fans and the intense cooling design in the new PowerMacs are for the dual 2Ghz processors (and eventually faster/hotter processors). I would imagine single slower G5s run pretty cool, comparatively.

[morbit]

I tend to think that ppc970 is designed to work in laptop and we will get powerbook g5 very soon. Some technical facts that support my optimism.

The LATEST IBM presentation [http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/a...hp?storyid=592] informs us, that the planned power consumtion of the chip is more or less met in actual silicon. So ppc970 at the current manufacturing process consumes 20w@1Ghz. This is as much as Mot ppc7455 at the same clock which is currently used in the top of the line powerbooks [http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDF...PC7455FACT.pdf]

More importantly, according to the IBM presentation the chip will be optimized to have a wide voltage/Hz operability band. So the cpu MHz is changed and consequently power consumtion also changes on demand. So once again, we have opportunity to be on bar with latest laptop cpus from INTEL (speedstep) and AMD (power-now). For example, INTEL Banias, a Centrino CPU consumes max. 24W@1,6MHz but only 1W average thanks to Speedstep and other power management tech. [http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.html?i=1800].

Interestingly, the same was rumored a while ago on Powerpage [http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/Web...y?newsID=10087]. They reported that technology called "variable bus timing" is in works in Apple labs.

To sum up, we saw yesterday that apple and ibm are really committed to develop the chip. So i would not be surprised to see this chip with advanced power management in apple laptop very soon.


Some additional remarks. I would consider EETimes assumption that each cpu at 2Ghz dissipates 97 watts careless, very wild guess [http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20030623S0092]. From the same IBM presentation, ppc970 dissipates [email protected]. So something should be terrible wrong with the cpu design, if increasig clock speed 200Mhz the power leakage increases at the same time 50W.


Otherwise, apple&ibm could wait for 90nm process which will decrease power consumption at the SAME CLOCK SPEED. And apple using Mot ppc7447/7457 is not the bad thing at all from my point of view. According to Mot [http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps...p?code=MPC7457] it dissipates less than 10W while running at 1 GHz.

So this way or another, laptop users should not be pessimistic at all :-)

[ingeniero]

thanks for that research, it really makes sense that the 970 chip would be geared toward a portable..I still feel that we should see a new 15 inch PB either later this year or in the first macworld in 2004 in January. I don't see why Jobs would say "this is the year of the notebook" just to release a 12 & 17 in early 2003 and do nothing but maybe a speedbump later on. That phrase denotes more than that.

[Powaqqatsi]

Originally posted by morbit:
For example, INTEL Banias, a Centrino CPU consumes max. 24W@1,6MHz but only 1W average thanks to Speedstep and other power management tech.

1 Watt, are you serious ?? Or is it a typo and should read 10W ?

[morbit]

Actually, it is not typo. But it is just marketing number and in real life it should be higher depending on things you do on you computer. At the same time, Inquirer wrote once that one is actually able to touch the cpu while the system is playing a dvd. But I do not want to comment this.

[chrisutley]

Amazing... So many relatively compelling predictions on rumor sites, and yet Apple came out today and said the PowerBooks won't have a G5 in them anytime soon.

[iDaver]

Originally posted by chrisutley:
Amazing... So many relatively compelling predictions on rumor sites, and yet Apple came out today and said the PowerBooks won't have a G5 in them anytime soon.

Interesting. Where did you hear/read this?

[mbperk]

Originally posted by iDaver:
Interesting. Where did you hear/read this?

From this article.

[djjava]

Originally posted by mbperk:
From this article.

again, I TOLD YOU SO!!!

[Crusoe]

I don't care what comes out, I need one before September.

The very old 15"ers wont do cause of bad airport range, spongy keyboard, and easily scratchable $2500 piece of merchandise.

[rambo47]

With 9 fans in the new G5 PowerMac, do you really think this chip can work in a laptop? A mobile version might be in the works, but it's nowhere near ready. Look for the new IBM G3 with AltiVec at much better clock speeds, or more likely still, the MPC 7457 G4 from Motorola.

Apple's emphasis has to be on battery life. Centrino has the upper hand as far as performance/battery life and the Wintel world is marketing the hell out of it. I'd look for a new low-voltage chip with aggressive processor cycling ala "speedstep".

[mrtew]

Originally posted by chrisutley:
.....Apple came out today and said the PowerBooks won't have a G5 in them anytime soon.

The Desktops won't even have G5s in them anytime soon according to the Apple store here. (Unless you consider 'Early in September' to be soon.) There will probably be new Windoze computers that beat it by then.

[djjava]

Originally posted by mrtew:
The Desktops won't even have G5s in them anytime soon according to the Apple store here. (Unless you consider 'Early in September' to be soon.) There will probably be new Windoze computers that beat it by then.

new windows computers??? dell comes out with new "models" all the time. define new computer.

[Crusoe]

All the "9 fans = no way into a powerbook" are quite silly. Just breeze over (pun intended) a whitepaper of the 970 chip and you'll see they run as cool as current G4s than and consume less power.

Of those 9 fans a max of 6 are used to create optimal airflow through the processor(s) area. Smaller localized fans are quieter and ...IT'S A DESKTOP, if you have the space put tons of fans in it, the cooler the better.

Putting one in a PB today at 1.4Ghzish max, with temperature regulated step down shouldn't be an issue.

I hope apple is just planning on releasing all three PB models at the same time with 970s in them say . . . September.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Crusoe:
All the "9 fans = no way into a powerbook" are quite silly. Just breeze over (pun intended) a whitepaper of the 970 chip and you'll see they run as cool as current G4s than and consume less power.

At the same MHz, the 7455 should run at significantly lower power than the PPC 970. The G4 7457 should be even lower power than the 7455. And this is not even including the new low-k technology Motorola will be using.

G5 PPC 970 1.2 GHz - 19 W typical
G4 7455 1.0 GHz without low-k - 15 W typical
G4 7457 1.3 GHz without low-k - 18.7 W typical

Motorola says low-K will reduce the G4s wattage even further. Mind you, the PPC 970 is faster MHz for MHz.

I wonder if the PPC 970 will require a lower voltage, and more optimizations for use in laptops.

[Proudest Monkey]

What i've heard from my campus computer store, is that the G5 powerbooks are due in a month or so. I wouldn't cite them as a credible source, except that they have been adversiting new PowerMacs running OS X with the ability to quickly switch users since April. So they knew about Panther, officially, since at least April. They have already placed orders for the Library and Art department for PowerMac G5's. The reason i say this about the Powerbooks is that our computers run on 3 year cycles, the last PowerMacs were G4/466, and the laptops that the Library borrows to students are macs and are being replaced this summer. At the time of ordering the PowerMac G5's, they were ready to order the 12" and 15" G4's, but Apple told them to give it some time if they didn't need them immediately. I think this points towards a Powerbook G5 release near August, and hopefully my library will have them by October in time for midterms.

[Eug Wanker]

From The Register:

Motorola hurries release of 0.13� G4
By Tony Smith
Posted: 25/06/2003 at 14:11 GMT


Motorola appears to have brought forward volume production of the next major G4-class PowerPC processor, the MPC7457, from Q4 to Q3.

The 7457 remains the leading contender for upcoming Apple PowerBooks. While some Mac users hoped IBM's 64-bit PowerPC 970, which Apple is calling the G5, would make it into PowerBooks, the chip's significant heat dissipation prevents it from taking on such a role.

When Motorola unveiled the 7457 back in February, it said the chip would sample in March followed by full production in Q4. Today, Motorola customer Synergy Microsystems, which produces motherboards for the embedded market, said it had begun shipping evaluation boards supporting single and dual 7457s.

Final 7457 boards will ship in Q3, says Synergy, "when production quantities of the [7457] become available".

The 7457 is Motorola's follow-up to the current top-of-the-line G4, the 7455. It not only doubles the G4's on-die L2 cache to 512KB, but expands its external L3 cache support to 4MB (though only 2MB can be used as cache per se; the rest is available as "private memory"). The clock speed will max out at 1.3GHz, but the extra cache sizes should improve performance even on the 1GHz version compared to current G4-based PowerBooks. So too will its 200MHz frontside bus, which paves the way for 400MHz DDR SDRAM support.

The 7457 will be fabbed at 0.13 micron, and Motorola claims the chip consumes just 16.6W at 1.3GHz, compared to the 0.18 micron 7455's 15W at 1GHz. By contrast the G5 consumes 42W at 1.8GHz. All three chips have a core voltage of 1.3V.

With new, 15.4in PowerBooks said to go into production during the second half of the year, the 7457 remains the most likely candidate for that machine's processor, possibly in dual-CPU configurations, if some rumours are to be believed.

Hints from a variety of sources that Apple might be refreshing the ageing Titanium 15.2in PowerBook this week appear to have proved unfounded. However, the machine is due an upgrade as it lacks not only the other PowerBooks' DDR SDRAM-based architecture but support of AirPort Extreme, Apple's second-generation, 802.11g-based wireless networking system and integrated Bluetooth.�

Hmmm... The Register says that Motorola is claiming 16.6 W for the G4 7457 1.3 GHz, instead of my 18.7 number. Either one of us has got the number wrong, or Motorola has revised its numbers (possibly because of low-k implementation?).

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
From The Register:

Motorola appears to have brought forward volume production of the next major G4-class PowerPC processor, the MPC7457, from Q4 to Q3.

Yay! The 7457 lives after all! So if we combine this news with the rumors that Compal would be producing a 15.4-inch PowerBook in the second half of this year...could we see a new PowerBook in, say, September?

[y2kerr]

This is good news -- as long as new PB's come out BEFORE September! I need a laptop to bring to Japan, and I'm leaving early in September. Hey Jobs! You gotta get these things to stores by August at the latest!

(He reads these forums, right?)

[dlindsay17]

G5s in powerbooks would be nice, but don't get your hopes up too soon...a story over on MacCentral quotes a guy from apple:

"Motorola is huge for us," said Joswiak. "Our partnership with Motorola is not going away, G4s are in every other part of our product line. As you can see, [the G5] is not going in a PowerBook anytime soon. Motorola remains very important to us, but IBM is the one that can take us to the next level."

story link: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/06/24/future/

(edit: looks like someone beat me to this a few posts up...oh well)

[Alpha-sphere]

Originally posted by dlindsay17:
G5s in powerbooks would be nice, but don't get your hopes up too soon...a story over on MacCentral quotes a guy from apple:


story link: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/06/24/future/

(edit: looks like someone beat me to this a few posts up...oh well)

it's possible that there putting the G4's in the iBooks so our hope is not gone just yet. Can somebody remember how long it took before apple put the G4 in a laptop after the desktop was announced?

[Esquare]

Can somebody remember how long it took before apple put the G4 in a laptop after the desktop was announced? [/B]

A LOOONGG time: first PowerMac G4 in Sep 1999, first PowerBook G4... Jan 2001. At that rate the first PB G5 can be expected around Jan 2005! Which would be my guess anyway.

Don't hold your breath, folks!



EE

[ae86_16v]

Originally posted by Esquare:
A LOOONGG time: first PowerMac G4 in Sep 1999, first PowerBook G4... Jan 2001. At that rate the first PB G5 can be expected around Jan 2005! Which would be my guess anyway.

Don't hold your breath, folks!



EE

But. . . . I heard that the G3 Powerbooks and the G3 Powermacs came out at the same time.

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by ae86_16v:
But. . . . I heard that the G3 Powerbooks and the G3 Powermacs came out at the same time.

I think the G3 has always been a pretty low-voltage, low-heat chip, though. And we're talking about 233MHz on a 66MHz bus.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by ae86_16v:
But. . . . I heard that the G3 Powerbooks and the G3 Powermacs came out at the same time.

They did, but this doesn't prove anything at all.

Comparing a very low voltage G3 with the 970 is like comparing Apples and... umm.

[yoyoman]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
Yay! The 7457 lives after all! So if we combine this news with the rumors that Compal would be producing a 15.4-inch PowerBook in the second half of this year...could we see a new PowerBook in, say, September?

Its all about battry power. The centrino can have up to 8 hours and with_a movie going on at least 5 hours or something like that. If the new powerbook can get more than 8 hours something that will blow our minds away like 15 to 20 hours. Something we can look forward to. with 0.13 micron that is a nice update. Higher cache is nice as well.

[Crusoe]

I believe the reason we didn't see a 15" powerbook at WWDC is Apple is waiting on the 7457 chip. At which point they'll likely release all 3 models with the new chip.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Crusoe:
I believe the reason we didn't see a 15" powerbook at WWDC is Apple is waiting on the 7457 chip. At which point they'll likely release all 3 models with the new chip.

Are the 7457 and the 7455 pin compatible?

Does the 7457 use the MaxBus as well just at a higher clock or does it have a different (new) bus?

[nsxpower]

No they are not! Now, who made this thread sticky?

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by Simon:
Are the 7457 and the 7455 pin compatible?

Does the 7457 use the MaxBus as well just at a higher clock or does it have a different (new) bus?

Yes, and Maxbus (unfortunately). There was a 7457-RM on the Moto roadmap that would have fully utilized DDR RAM but it seems to have disappeared.

[Simon]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
Yes, and Maxbus (unfortunately). There was a 7457-RM on the Moto roadmap that would have fully utilized DDR RAM but it seems to have disappeared.

So basically the 7457 is just a 7455 capable of running on a 200MHz MaxBus?

What speeds will it run at? Is it smaller fab'ed or will it have similar limitations like the 7455?

Or in simple words: Could we possibly see 1.6GHz 7457s running on 200MHz boards in the next PowerBooks? What dissipation is to be expected? Will it make this CPU possible in the narrow enclosure of the 12" PowerBook?

[ae86_16v]

Originally posted by Simon:

Or in simple words: Could we possibly see 1.6GHz 7457s running on 200MHz boards in the next PowerBooks? What dissipation is to be expected? Will it make this CPU possible in the narrow enclosure of the 12" PowerBook?

"The 7457 is Motorola's follow-up to the current top-of-the-line G4, the 7455. It not only doubles the G4's on-die L2 cache to 512KB, but expands its external L3 cache support to 4MB (though only 2MB can be used as cache per se; the rest is available as "private memory"). The clock speed will max out at 1.3GHz, but the extra cache sizes should improve performance even on the 1GHz version compared to current G4-based PowerBooks. So too will its 200MHz frontside bus, which paves the way for 400MHz DDR SDRAM support.

The 7457 will be fabbed at 0.13 micron, and Motorola claims the chip consumes just 16.6W at 1.3GHz, compared to the 0.18 micron 7455's 15W at 1GHz. By contrast the G5 consumes 42W at 1.8GHz. All three chips have a core voltage of 1.3V. "

- The Register

[Scooterboy]

Might not the new G4's go into the the iMac and eMacs, and maybe the 12" PowerBook (with L3 cache I hope), and the new 15" and 17" PowerBooks get the G5? Is this possible?

I'd like to see Apple offer up the world's first 64 bit Personal computer and the world's first 64 bit notebook computer in the same year.
PowerBook G5 1.4 GHz on 700 MHz FSB would be a coup for 2003. This is "the year of the notebook" or something, isn't it?

[Eug]

Originally posted by Simon:
So basically the 7457 is just a 7455 capable of running on a 200MHz MaxBus?

What speeds will it run at? Is it smaller fab'ed or will it have similar limitations like the 7455?

Or in simple words: Could we possibly see 1.6GHz 7457s running on 200MHz boards in the next PowerBooks? What dissipation is to be expected? Will it make this CPU possible in the narrow enclosure of the 12" PowerBook?

1) 1.6 MHz? Not likely. I'd expect several hundred MHz slower.
2) 200 MHz? Not likely. The memory only goes up to 167 MHz AFAIK, for laptops.

Thus, my prediction for the higher models is a 1.25 GHz 7457 running on a 167 MHz bus with PC2700. Heat dissipation is likely to be around 16 W, which is slightly higher than what a 1 GHz 7455 puts out at 1 GHz. (Note Motorola's own literature had said 18.7 W at 1.3 GHz, but I think that has changed, possibly due to incorporation of low-k.)

I expect the 12" to go with a 1 GHz (or possibly 1.13 GHz), on a 133 MHz bus, and no L3 cache.

As for PPC 970... Not a chance.

[elmer]

Originally posted by TC:
Steve has already called this the year of the laptop. I think they will have pulled out all the stops to get the new processor in a laptop.

arstechnica links to a story that backs Steve up:
http://arstechnica.com/archive/news/1057194743.html

[Simon]

Originally posted by Eug:
1) 1.6 MHz? Not likely. I'd expect several hundred MHz slower.
2) 200 MHz? Not likely. The memory only goes up to 167 MHz AFAIK, for laptops.

Thus, my prediction for the higher models is a 1.25 GHz 7457 running on a 167 MHz bus with PC2700. Heat dissipation is likely to be around 16 W, which is slightly higher than what a 1 GHz 7455 puts out at 1 GHz. (Note Motorola's own literature had said 18.7 W at 1.3 GHz, but I think that has changed, possibly due to incorporation of low-k.)

I expect the 12" to go with a 1 GHz (or possibly 1.13 GHz), on a 133 MHz bus, and no L3 cache.

As for PPC 970... Not a chance.

Eug, thanks for that info.

Your predictions seem rather realistic to me and I agree.

Although I really think it stinks that Apple believes people that want a slim & small book also want a crippled book. As far as I'm concerned the PowerBooks are all "Power"-machines so they should all get the max board. The "crappy" board is what we should get with the ultra-cheap iBook.

Let screen and size/weight issues decide which user gets what model PowerBook. If Apple wants to slow sales of the 12" they should increase the price (which has the nice side effect of increasing their margins), but I find it incredibly stupid if they believe people who want CPU power also need to want bulky size...

(And please don't give me the thermo problem crap now guys. The L3 doesn't make the box dissipate substantially more heat.)

[slider]

Well, I will be ready to buy a new 15"PowerBook in September, I hope they are available by then at least. The 17" is too big and the 12 a little small, but tempting, I almost bought one, but the lack of a pcmcia slot held me back. If they don't come out by then, then it'll just be a whating game for me.

[elysian]

I think new 15" and 12" powerbooks are coming soon because my campus computer store is deeply discounting 15" powerbooks and 12" powerbooks. They are selling the 867MHz powerbook with airport and 3 year applecare for $1780 and the 1GHz powerbook for $2100 with 3 year applecare. They're selling the 12" powerbook for $1500 with airport extreme and 3 year applecare included.

The last time they did this, the new 12" and 17" powerbooks were announced a month later.