[PerryP2]

The gospels 'culminated in the Holocaust' apparently.
http://www.sobran.com/columns/040302.htm

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by PerryP2:
The gospels 'culminated in the Holocaust' apparently.
http://www.sobran.com/columns/040302.htm

More like "Net Kook Writes Editorial"...

[Zimphire]

So tell me Perry. Are you going to go on another Jew thread spree?

haven't you curved your obsession yet?

[voodoo]

When push comes to shove, are you a Christian or a Jew Zimphire?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
When push comes to shove, are you a Christian or a Jew Zimphire?

I am a follow of God.

I am a Christian. That doesn't mean I have to hate Jews.

I have only one enemy. And he isn't Jewish.

When push comes to shove, you'll probably see the Christians and Jews working together.

Much like America and Israel.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
More like "Net Kook Writes Editorial"...

Indeed.

BTW Perry, do you even care about Jesus?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
When push comes to shove, you'll probably see the Christians and Jews working together.

It is hard to take you seriously.

You claim to be a Christian yet find kinship with the only religion that actually denies that Jesus is God's only son.

[itai195]

Originally posted by voodoo:
It is hard to take you seriously.

You claim to be a Christian yet find kinship with the only religion that actually denies that Jesus is God's only son.

I wasn't aware that Hindus or Buddhists thought Jesus was God's son.

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by voodoo:
It is hard to take you seriously.

You claim to be a Christian yet find kinship with the only religion that actually denies that Jesus is God's only son.

Because Jesus taught tolerance. I thought you libbies believed in that, too.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by itai195:
I wasn't aware that Hindus or Buddhists thought Jesus was God's son.

Irrelevant.

They don't say either way OR it isn't applicable for their religion. In Judaism it is fundamental that Jesus is *not* the son of God.

That is kinda what separated Christians from Jew in the first place (duh)

[voodoo]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
Because Jesus taught tolerance. I thought you libbies believed in that, too.

Sure whatever man. I was asking Zimphire specifically because he doesn't preach tolerance anyway. :/

He's also very fond of the Old Testament - unusually so for a Christian. Then again I've never seen anything that indicates he is actually a Christian other than him claiming to be so.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
It is hard to take you seriously.

Try harder.

You claim to be a Christian yet find kinship with the only religion that actually denies that Jesus is God's only son.

Only one? No.

I do it because I feel in my heart that is what is right.

Again, I have only one enemy.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Sure whatever man. I was asking Zimphire specifically because he doesn't preach tolerance anyway. :/

Ah tolerence isn't accepting ideals. Tolerance is the way you treat others that disagree with you.

Sometimes I don't practice tolerance even though I should.

He's also very fond of the Old Testament - unusually so for a Christian.

Jesus came to replace sacrificial and dietary laws. He never came to replace God's word. The OT is full of God's word. Most Christians know this as well.

Then again I've never seen anything that indicates he is actually a Christian other than him claiming to be so.

Sorry, hard to see the cross tattoo on my forehead from there.

Why would I say I was a Christian if I was not? To be treated better in this forum? Heh.

[benb]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Jesus came to replace sacrificial and dietary laws. He never came to replace God's word. The OT is full of God's word. Most Christians know this as well.

Oh yea.

[James Christ]

Originally posted by itai195:
I wasn't aware that Hindus or Buddhists thought Jesus was God's son.

Actually they do see Jesus as a Boddhisatva. But they have their own gods born of virgins. They even turned blue trying to squeeze past the hymen. lol

[Developer]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Jesus came to replace sacrificial and dietary laws.

Bwahahaha!

Sometimes you're too funny.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Developer:
Bwahahaha!

Sometimes you're too funny.

What is funny about that?

Care to disprove what I say instead of just posting tripe like you did above?

I'll be waiting.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
What is funny about that?

Care to disprove what I say instead of just posting tripe like you did above?

I'll be waiting.

Maybe because you said: DIETARY, not DEITARY.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Jesus came to replace sacrificial and dietary laws.[/B]

Umm...This is like saying Salk invented the polio vaccine because he wanted to change the shape of the syringe.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
Umm...This is like saying Salk invented the polio vaccine because he wanted to change the shape of the syringe.

Of course that wasn't the only reason.

But leave it to you to attack the petty.

Typical.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Maybe because you said: DIETARY, not DEITARY.

That must have been it!

[fizzlemynizzle]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Sure whatever man. I was asking Zimphire specifically because he doesn't preach tolerance anyway. :/

Having read your thinly veiled anti-semitism I'd say you're no better.

[itai195]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Irrelevant.

They don't say either way OR it isn't applicable for their religion. In Judaism it is fundamental that Jesus is *not* the son of God.

That is kinda what separated Christians from Jew in the first place (duh)

Um, Judaism does not define itself in Christian terms, either, just as Hinduism and Buddhism do not. Christianity began as a Jewish sect, after all, and only began separating after Paul's teachings/philosophies.

[Zimphire]

Also it would be kinda silly for me to dislike Jews considering I worship one.

Jew hating Christians crack me up.

[PerryP2]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Also it would be kinda silly for me to dislike Jews considering I worship one.

Just one? And He only came to change dietary laws? Why didn't they send a chef?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by itai195:
I wasn't aware that Hindus or Buddhists thought Jesus was God's son.

They don't. Some other religions believe he was enlightened (some sects of Buddhism consider Jesus to have been a bodhisattva), but these do not claim that he was the son of God either. In any case, the idea of "the son of God" doesn't fit well into either of these religions, most sects of which believe in multiple gods, no god at all, an impersonal force which wouldn't have a human child anyway, or simply don't focus on what form a higher power -assuming there is one at all- would take.

Islam is an interesting case; they consider Jesus to have been a true prophet, but nothing more than that. The Qu'ran says that God has no son at all; Mohammed was the last of the prophets, but not a divine being himself. So they, too, deny that Jesus was God's only son.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by fizzlemynizzle:
Having read your thinly veiled anti-semitism I'd say you're no better.

You are missing the point and making up a new one.

Sad.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by itai195:
Um, Judaism does not define itself in Christian terms, either, just as Hinduism and Buddhism do not. Christianity began as a Jewish sect, after all, and only began separating after Paul's teachings/philosophies.

You realize that Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to come true? That they regard Jesus as at best a misled fanatic and at worst a false prophet?

There is no other religion where it is fundamentally VITAL that Jesus was NOT God's son like Judaism. It would therefore be the LAST religion for Christians to feel kinship with.

This is about people who have lost their way. Like Zimphire who claim to have tattooed a cross on their forehead to show their "true belief in Christianity" while preaching hate, ignorance and intolerance all the while undermining what Christ actually said or did on this Earth. Now true Christians do not denounce Christ like Zimphire does. That is my point. I am not slamming other religions here as SOME have wanted me to be doing, rather I am slamming a person that is giving my religion a false meaning for people who don't know better (many people reading this forum).

[stupendousman]

Originally posted by voodoo:
You realize that Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to come true? That they regard Jesus as at best a misled fanatic and at worst a false prophet?

There is no other religion where it is fundamentally VITAL that Jesus was NOT God's son like Judaism. It would therefore be the LAST religion for Christians to feel kinship with.

I don't believe that it's "fundamentally VITAL" that Jesus was not God's son in Judaism. The disagreement over Jesus' divinity is one of the few major differences between it and Christianity, but I think that if you go attend synagogue for several weeks in a row, you're probably not going to hear ANYTHING about a messiah, false or otherwise. Surely something so "VITAL" would be focused on more specifically. You'll probably see though them worshipping the same God as Christians, studying much of the same scripture as Christians, and sharing most of the same values as Christians

Originally posted by voodoo:
I am not slamming other religions here as SOME have wanted me to be doing, rather I am slamming a person that is giving my religion a false meaning for people who don't know better (many people reading this forum).

Sounds like the "pot calling the kettle black". According to the Christian Bible, Jews are God's "chosen people", regardless if they accept his son as their savior or not. And God's son is himself a Jew. It's hard to understand why a Christian WOULDN'T have great respect for this religion regardless of the differences in ideology. Jesus himself loved the Jews, despite knowing that some of them were to help ensure his death.

"Forgive them, for they know not what they do". As far as Christianity goes, it should always go back to "what would Jesus do?". He loved the Jews, worshipped their God, and studied in their Temples despite the fact that their leadership did not believe him to be the divine. If it's good enough for Jesus...it's good enough for me.

[itai195]

Originally posted by voodoo:
You realize that Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to come true? That they regard Jesus as at best a misled fanatic and at worst a false prophet?

There is no other religion where it is fundamentally VITAL that Jesus was NOT God's son like Judaism. It would therefore be the LAST religion for Christians to feel kinship with.

It's in no way vital, and there are Jewish sects that believe Jesus was the messiah though that is not the mainstream belief. Like I said, Judaism does not define itself in contrast to Christianity, which I'd think would be obvious since it predates Christianity.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by PerryP2:
Just one?

So do you think ALL the Jews hated Jesus? That he had friends that were Jewish?

And He only came to change dietary laws?

I never said he ONLY came for that.

Stop being dishonest.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Millennium:
They don't. Some other religions believe he was enlightened (some sects of Buddhism consider Jesus to have been a bodhisattva), but these do not claim that he was the son of God either. In any case, the idea of "the son of God" doesn't fit well into either of these religions, most sects of which believe in multiple gods, no god at all, an impersonal force which wouldn't have a human child anyway, or simply don't focus on what form a higher power -assuming there is one at all- would take.

Islam is an interesting case; they consider Jesus to have been a true prophet, but nothing more than that. The Qu'ran says that God has no son at all; Mohammed was the last of the prophets, but not a divine being himself. So they, too, deny that Jesus was God's only son.

He was either the Son of God, or a complete Loon.

There is no middle ground.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
You realize that Jews are still waiting for the prophecy to come true? That they regard Jesus as at best a misled fanatic and at worst a false prophet?

Indeed. They will get their prophet too.

There is no other religion where it is fundamentally VITAL that Jesus was NOT God's son like Judaism. It would therefore be the LAST religion for Christians to feel kinship with.

You are thinking in a secular sense voodoo. This is the spiritual world. I don't understand it all. I just know what I feel.

This is about people who have lost their way. Like Zimphire who claim to have tattooed a cross on their forehead to show their "true belief in Christianity"

While I am not perfect, I have no lost my way. And the cross comment was a joke.

while preaching hate, ignorance and intolerance all the while undermining what Christ actually said or did on this Earth.

1. You are being dishonest voodoo. I do not teach hate. I DO however teach intolerance to sin. That doesn't mean I think people should be stoned for sinning of course. I just don't think it should be justified.

2. If you can please show me how I am undermining what Christ has said on this Earth I would be grateful.

Now true Christians do not denounce Christ like Zimphire does.

I do not denounce Christ. Not once. You are being dishonest.

That is my point. I am not slamming other religions here as SOME have wanted me to be doing, rather I am slamming a person that is giving my religion a false meaning for people who don't know better (many people reading this forum).

Well please, tell me what I am doing wrong. Show me the way voodoo. I am all ears.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
He was either the Son of God, or a complete Loon.

There is no middle ground.

No, because his teachings were fundamentally good (love thy neighbor as yourself and the bit about forgiveness to name a couple) regardless of whether or not you believe he was actually the son of god.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by stupendousman:
Sounds like the "pot calling the kettle black". According to the Christian Bible, Jews are God's "chosen people", regardless if they accept his son as their savior or not. And God's son is himself a Jew. It's hard to understand why a Christian WOULDN'T have great respect for this religion regardless of the differences in ideology. Jesus himself loved the Jews, despite knowing that some of them were to help ensure his death. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do". As far as Christianity goes, it should always go back to "what would Jesus do?". He loved the Jews, worshipped their God, and studied in their Temples despite the fact that their leadership did not believe him to be the divine. If it's good enough for Jesus...it's good enough for me.

You said it better than I.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by paully dub:
No, because his teachings were fundamentally good (love thy neighbor as yourself and the bit about forgiveness to name a couple) regardless of whether or not you believe he was actually the son of god.

That may be so. But he claimed to be the son of God. That was one of the reason he was crucified.

So either he was, or he was a loon.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That may be so. But he claimed to be the son of God. That was one of the reason he was crucified.

So either he was, or he was a loon.

Ah yes, I spoke rather hastily. Indeed he would have had to been a loon - but this doesn't make him irrelevant.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by paully dub:
Ah yes, I spoke rather hastily. Indeed he would have had to been a loon - but this doesn't make him irrelevant.

David Koresh taught some good things too. He made good points.

He also claimed to be the son of God.

He was a loon. These people only speak half truths.


So either Jesus was a loon Koreshian style. Or he was the son of God.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
David Koresh taught some good things too. He made good points.

He also claimed to be the son of God.

He was a loon. These people only speak half truths.


So either Jesus was a loon Koreshian style. Or he was the son of God.

Hmm... not going spend my entire afternoon defending the relevance of Jesus, but I think comparing him to David Koresh is a little far fetched.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
David Koresh taught some good things too. He made good points.

He also claimed to be the son of God.

He was a loon. These people only speak half truths.


So either Jesus was a loon Koreshian style. Or he was the son of God.

And someone with the awesome burden of being the son of God, charged with saving humanity. Amazing!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by paully dub:
Hmm... not going spend my entire afternoon defending the relevance of Jesus, but I think comparing him to David Koresh is a little far fetched.

I was showing how Either he was the Son of God, or he was a loon. No in betweens.

No "He was a good prophet" etc.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
He also claimed to be the son of God.

Actually, a fairly minor nitpick, but one with interesting implications.

Jesus himself never actually claimed to be the son of God (he did, however, call himself the "son of Man" often). There were three major entities which make this claim:

• At his baptism, a voice is said to have called out from the heavens, "This is My Son". From a Christian standpoint this could only have been God.
• Legion, the collective name for the multitude of demons possessing one particular man Jesus met in his travels, is said to have screamed "You are the Son of God" at Jesus just before he cast them out (it is worth noting that Jesus not only commanded them to leave, but to be silent as they did so). Other demons are said to have made this claim as well, but only Legion is ever named.
• The apostles started using the title for him later in his ministry and after his death.

[fizzlemynizzle]

At his baptism, a voice is said to have called out from the heavens, "This is My Son". From a Christian standpoint this could only have been God.

naw, it was just bob uecker

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Actually, a fairly minor nitpick, but one with interesting implications.

Jesus himself never actually claimed to be the son of God (he did, however, call himself the "son of Man" often). There were three major entities which make this claim:

• At his baptism, a voice is said to have called out from the heavens, "This is My Son". From a Christian standpoint this could only have been God.
• Legion, the collective name for the multitude of demons possessing one particular man Jesus met in his travels, is said to have screamed "You are the Son of God" at Jesus just before he cast them out (it is worth noting that Jesus not only commanded them to leave, but to be silent as they did so). Other demons are said to have made this claim as well, but only Legion is ever named.
• The apostles started using the title for him later in his ministry and after his death.

First I want to tackle this legion fellah. He was mocking Jesus. Secondly the holy ghost came to Marry and said she was to bare God's only son. The Holy Ghost also told Joseph this.

And Jesus did indeed say he was the son of God. That is why the Pharisees claimed he needed to be crucified. It was Blasphemy to them.

Here are some more scriptures.

John 4

25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

Now is not the Messiah the son of God that God himself promised his people?

Matthew 16

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[1] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

He admitted it right there.

Mark 14

61But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[1] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Meaning he indeed was. He came from man and God.
[quote][b]
Matthew 26

63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[1] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Obviously in this context Son of Man doesn't mean what you think it does. Either that, or Jesus just contradicted himself.

Luke 22

70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

More admitting.

So to say Jesus never claimed to be the son of God is wrong.

Fact is, he would HAVE TO BE the son of God for him dying for our sins to have worked.

He had to be born without sin.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
First I want to tackle this legion fellah. He was mocking Jesus. Secondly the holy ghost came to Marry and said she was to bare God's only son. The Holy Ghost also told Joseph this.

And Jesus did indeed say he was the son of God. That is why the Pharisees claimed he needed to be crucified. It was Blasphemy to them.

Here are some more scriptures.

Now is not the Messiah the son of God that God himself promised his people?
[/b]
He admitted it right there.
[/b]
Meaning he indeed was. He came from man and God.
[/b]
Obviously in this context Son of Man doesn't mean what you think it does. Either that, or Jesus just contradicted himself.
[/b]
More admitting.

So to say Jesus never claimed to be the son of God is wrong.

Fact is, he would HAVE TO BE the son of God for him dying for our sins to have worked.

He had to be born without sin. [/B]

Actually Jesus never said he was the son of God - but the voices he heard told him so. And it's certainly clear from his statements and actions that he believed he was the Messiah.

Nothing you've quoted says unequivicably that Jesus made the statement that he was the son of God. Remember also that much can be warped in the context of language, translation and time passed. Are these the very words that Jesus uttered? We'll never know for sure. But even so, his actions seem to point to the conclusion that he believed to be the messiah and he played the part.

By the way, I looked around and found this, on the psychology of Jesus. Interesting stuff.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by paully dub:
Actually Jesus never said he was the son of God

Did you not read above? At all? Any of it? He indeed did, They asked him, he said yes. I am he.

- but the voices he heard told him so. And it's certainly clear from his statements and actions that he believed he was the Messiah.

Nothing you've quoted says unequivicably that Jesus made the statement that he was the son of God. Remember also that much can be warped in the context of language, translation and time passed. Are these the very words that Jesus uttered? We'll never know for sure. But even so, his actions seem to point to the conclusion that he believed to be the messiah and he played the part.

*sigh* of course the usually excuse.

The dead sea scrolls are 2k years old. The message is still the same.

By the way, I looked around and found this, on the psychology of Jesus. Interesting stuff.

When they tried to understand Jesus through secular ideals, they failed before they began.

[paully dub]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Did you not read above? At all? Any of it? He indeed did, They asked him, he said yes. I am he.

[/b]
*sigh* of course the usually excuse.

The dead sea scrolls are 2k years old. The message is still the same.


When they tried to understand Jesus through secular ideals, they failed before they began. [/B]

This is going in circles...

Please do us all the favor of finding passage where Jesus is quoted as saying "I am the son of God" so we can end this useless debate. Him saying he was the son of man or replying in the affirmative just won't cut it in this kangaroo court.

Doctor one if you have to. You even get to have the last word.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
First I want to tackle this legion fellah. He was mocking Jesus.

True, but are you saying that they didn't happen to be correct?

Secondly the holy ghost came to Marry and said she was to bare God's only son. The Holy Ghost also told Joseph this.

I hadn't counted these, because they took place before Jesus was even born.

And Jesus did indeed say he was the son of God.

That is not a claim he ever made, and in fact he made a point of not making the claim himself. I'll get to that in a second:

Now is not the Messiah the son of God that God himself promised his people?

It was never said that the Messiah would call himself this.

He admitted it right there.

Look again at the words: "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

This is exactly why it was so important to him that he never make that claim himself. He needed people to come to the conclusion themselves, without his telling them beforehand.

Fact is, he would HAVE TO BE the son of God for him dying for our sins to have worked.

I never said he wasn't the son of God; I believe that he was. I am merely pointing out that it was important that he not be the one to make the claim himself. By not making the claim, he attempted to ward off accusations of manipulating people. That seems to have worked in his day, but one need only look at the arguments taking place in this day and age to see that it hasn't worked out quite as well as he probably hoped.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Millennium:
True, but are you saying that they didn't happen to be correct?

Yes, Jesus told them to shush. Not because they were incorrect. But because they were mocking.

I hadn't counted these, because they took place before Jesus was even born.

Still it's saying that indeed Jesus was the son of God.

That is not a claim he ever made, and in fact he made a point of not making the claim himself. I'll get to that in a second:

It was never said that the Messiah would call himself this.

Look again at the words: "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

This is exactly why it was so important to him that he never make that claim himself. He needed people to come to the conclusion themselves, without his telling them beforehand.

Then why when he was asked, did he answer yes, I am indeed who you are referring to.

I never said he wasn't the son of God; I believe that he was. I am merely pointing out that it was important that he not be the one to make the claim himself. By not making the claim, he attempted to ward off accusations of manipulating people. That seems to have worked in his day, but one need only look at the arguments taking place in this day and age to see that it hasn't worked out quite as well as he probably hoped.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood you. I apologize. I thought you were claiming something else.

[UNTeMac]

A relevant point I think needs to be made is that according to fundamentalist Christians, one of the things that needs to happen before the rapture is that the Jews regain their homeland (all of it). One of the reasons fundamentalist American Christians support Israel is they hope that support fulfills the prophecy of Armageddon.

In Armageddon, 1/3 of of Jews will convert and the rest will die, with no eternal salvation. During Jesus's reign on Earth, the will be no Jews left. Sounds like pretty messed up way of supporting people to me.

Someone correct me if I misheard this.