[Eug]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Dude, you don't believe what you write. You just can't. People on here are smarter than what I'm seeing written. I think there's just too much trolling going on.

Indeed.

It's unfortunate that there is someone here so willing to troll everyone else continuously in this thread.

Now for why what you've written has no basis in reality. Apple climbed to the top of heap in the world... one of the most valuable publicly traded companies in the world. And they sell premium priced products, not cheaply priced junk. They climbed to the top during the recession. Apple Retail Stores were one of the only chains to show growth at the height of the recession.

Apple did well by selling great products. However, it's not as if Apple actually has the majority market share in everything. In computers it still struggles to reach the top 5 makers in many markets. Obviously, not everyone buys into Apple's vision of its products.

Heck, I even keep both a Mac and a Windows 7 PC in the same room, because although I prefer the Mac, I need the Windows 7 PC. Actually, for 95% of what I do, that Windows PC would be perfectly fine, despite the fact it cost only 1/4 of what I paid for the iMac. One-quarter. And in fact, for the good part of a year that sub $500 PC (including monitor) was my primary machine. The i7 iMac was actually the secondary machine.

In other words, it's not price. People are willing to pay more for better products.

Since you continue to ignore facts, I will have to repeat it: Now that my next tablet may not be subsidized by my workplace, I probably won't get another iPad. It does have some disadvantages, but much of it is because it costs more than I think it's worth for what I do with it.

So my options now are A) Buy nothing or B) Buy a lower priced non-iOS device. The iPad isn't even a consideration because I'm just not interested at $519. Make the entry level $369, and I might be interested.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

You know, having never played with one before, I had no idea that the Kindle readers weren't backlit. The pictures make it look like it is! And $60 for a leather case with a built-in light?! Holy crap.

They make almost nothing off the readers, so the accessories are really high. Best to grab one off ebay.

[Shaddim]

So, Fire proponents in this thread are saying, "it's really cheap, it basically does what it's supposed to do, and it pushes Amazon products". Right?

We can then state, with certainty, that the thread title is incorrect. Good, I'm glad this has all been worked out.

Kindle Fire — a worthy iPad challenger at last?

No, it isn't. `Nuff said.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

So, Fire proponents in this thread are saying, "it's really cheap, it basically does what it's supposed to do, and it pushes Amazon products". Right?

We can then state, with certainty, that the thread title is incorrect. Good, I'm glad this has all been worked out.



No, it isn't. `Nuff said.

Well said.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

You know, having never played with one before, I had no idea that the Kindle readers weren't backlit. The pictures make it look like it is! And $60 for a leather case with a built-in light?! Holy crap.

This is a major shortcoming of eInk readers. I started using them years ago... Got on the Sony bandwagon, owned a few of their readers. Very nice designs, well made, and they pioneered touch eInk screens.

The problem with all eInk readers is that they're only good in constrained lighting conditions. Bright sunlight outside with some hazy shade is best. Natural light. They suck in most other environments. And having tried lit leather cases, those suck too. Screen is washed out, lighting not uniform' and the cases are unweildly. Then there's slow refresh rates, no color, limited depth spectrum... Good for Americans reading novels in Mexico.

LCD, while crappy in bright sunlight, is the clear winner because it's more robust and practical for the user. EInk thus has a place in the world but it's niche.

There was 1 solid eReader with a built in backlight that became kind of sought after. That's the Sony Touch PRS-700. I think that's the model number. Owned it. While the touch screen made things a bit blurry on it, that eReader is amazing. It's over 3 years old now but it's cool. Check it out on YouTube. Even has a built in stylus for drawing and taking notes on the screen. It's not perfect, but very sexy with lots of ambitious tech built in.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

So, Fire proponents in this thread are saying, "it's really cheap, it basically does what it's supposed to do, and it pushes Amazon products". Right?

We can then state, with certainty, that the thread title is incorrect. Good, I'm glad this has all been worked out.

No, it isn't. `Nuff said.

Exactly. But, it doesn't need to be an iPad contender; it just needs to fill a market gap that the iPad ignores.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Exactly. But, it doesn't need to be an iPad contender; it just needs to fill a market gap that the iPad ignores.

You ignore reality.

Are you buying a fire? Or, are you taking me up on the $100 bet that the Fire will flop? I'll bet you too.

Unless you're prepared to put your money on the table, there's no point In posting the same thing over and over and over and over. We get it man. Niche market. And what I'm saying is that niche market is so small it'll flop. Amazon fanboys and geeks are the only people who will buy these. Android tablets are POS. Look for high return rates and low sell through to consumers. $100 can add you on. Must do PayPal.

Trust me when I say I wish these tablets were contenders. It's way better for my business. But they just suck. All of them. I just spent an hour today with a brand new Acer Iconia 7" Tablet. Probably one of the best Android tablets I've used. Totally took me by surprise. Tegra 2 Dual Core... More responsive than most others out there. Overall, it's still a POS though. Cheap plastic, still sluggish, tweener screen size. It's not good at anything which is why we're just not spending money developing content for these things.

There's a cool geek factor to these things, but reality sets in really quick. Ya, the 7" tablet... You love how thin and light it is... Until you realize you have a full blown, mutli touch tablet in your pocket: your smartphone. And you realize how much better the iPad really is for content with the bigger screen and way better performance.

I've used and tested over 25 of the latest and greatest tablets over the past 4 weeks. 7" tablets are tweeners man, tweeners. The only 2 tablets I can recommend are the iPad and the TouchPad. This post is being typed with an HP TouchPad.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You ignore reality.
And what I'm saying is that niche market is so small it'll flop.

The only 2 tablets I can recommend ........ and the TouchPad. This post is being typed with an HP TouchPad.

Its rare that you see someone say things that verifies that their parents were first cousins.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

Its rare that you see someone say things that verifies that their parents were first cousins.

Suck it.™

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The only 2 tablets I can recommend are the iPad and the TouchPad. This post is being typed with an HP TouchPad.

The Fire had more pre-orders in 5 days than the HP Touchpad had over it's entire (short) product life. Are you saying that the TouchPad has more consumer appeal than the Fire, even after the TouchPad was dropped in price to $399? Is that really what you want to hang your hat on as some sort of super tech analyst?

[Wiskedjak]

From The Economist, another ignorer of reality:

"the Fire is not an iPad killer. But nor does it need to be. Mr Bezos has built a clever little gizmo which, especially at its low price, may yet put a dent in Apple's dominant, even overweening position. Consumers can only benefit."
Tablet computers: Fire in the hole! | The Economist

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

The Fire had more pre-orders in 5 days than the HP Touchpad had over it's entire (short) product life. Are you saying that the TouchPad has more consumer appeal than the Fire, even after the TouchPad was dropped in price to $399? Is that really what you want to hang your hat on as some sort of super tech analyst?

First, the reviews of all major tech sources are skewed to the negative. The Fire has gotten generally terrible reviews from media. Jeff Bezos is paying for positive reviews and astroturfing. I'm pretty sure this is happening. No reasonable person would rate the Fire as a good device after actually using it. I was blown away with how horrible it performed. Guys, I wanted to like it. I had high hopes. It's a POS.

Now, the TouchPad. As you're aware, I'm recommending to anyone to buy an iPad if they are to buy a tablet. The form factor there is nailed. Apple cracked that code flawlessly. The TouchPad is basically the only other tablet with literally the exact same form factor number 1. Number 2, webOS is decent on a tablet. If you overclock, etc. It's got lots of polish and speed. And finally, because they can be bought for so cheap, they offer a tremendous value. Fro all these reasons, I recommend it. But most people probably wouldn't be able find one. But first and foremost, number 1 pick is iPad 2. Kills any other tablet.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

Its rare that you see someone say things that verifies that their parents were first cousins.

I suppose that's better than yours being siblings, right? Do you actually have a purpose around here, aside from being a prime example of forum caricature?

[Shaddim]

A great Fire alternative, if you still want the 7" form factor. Many more features, a lot more flexibility, and same price.

Lenovo - IdeaPad A1 Tablet with 16GB Memory - Black - 22282EU

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

First, the reviews of all major tech sources are skewed to the negative. The Fire has gotten generally terrible reviews from media. Jeff Bezos is paying for positive reviews and astroturfing. I'm pretty sure this is happening. No reasonable person would rate the Fire as a good device after actually using it. I was blown away with how horrible it performed. Guys, I wanted to like it. I had high hopes. It's a POS.

Now, the TouchPad. As you're aware, I'm recommending to anyone to buy an iPad if they are to buy a tablet. The form factor there is nailed. Apple cracked that code flawlessly. The TouchPad is basically the only other tablet with literally the exact same form factor number 1. Number 2, webOS is decent on a tablet. If you overclock, etc. It's got lots of polish and speed. And finally, because they can be bought for so cheap, they offer a tremendous value. Fro all these reasons, I recommend it. But most people probably wouldn't be able find one. But first and foremost, number 1 pick is iPad 2. Kills any other tablet.

You keep accusing people of ignoring reality, and then you go on talking about the TouchPad as though anyone actually bought one and as if it hadn't been cancelled and tossed in the trash bin by HP.

[Eug]

Anyone recommending the TouchPad has NO credibility as far as I'm concerned.

[ort888]

As a cheap $150 device for someone without an iPad, the TouchPad is a fine recommendation.

As a computing platform though, it's toast. Maybe if HP stuck to their guns and kept improving it and got more app support it could have been a nice option, but that never happened and will never happen.

This is all anecdotal, but amongst many non-techie people I know, the Kindle Fire has really made a big splash. Everyone seems to want an iPad, but doesn't want to pay for an iPad and now sees the Fire as a half-priced iPad. I know about 5 people who all see the Fire as a very desirable iPad stand in.

So far, I'm finding the reviews of the thing to be scathing. It sounds like you are really getting your $200 bucks worth with it... as in, you are getting something that's about 40% as good as a low end iPad.

Here's the thing though. The iPad is a fairly silly device. No one really needs it. People love iPads because iPads are a delight to use. They are fun to interact with. Everything is so smooth and slick and easy. It makes up for the fact that it does a lot less then a traditional computer.

Remove that slick interface and smooth experience, make the device do even less and what do you have? A much less fun, much less capable tablet for much less money.

You get what you pay for.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Anyone recommending the TouchPad has NO credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Even with no credibility, a person still has more than you.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Even with no credibility, a person still has more than you.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

You lose.

Another review I posted in another thread:

A human review of the Kindle Fire
By Marco Arment, Creator of Instapaper

I expected the Kindle Fire to be good for books, great for magazines and newspapers, great for video, and good for apps and games.

In practice, it’s none of these. Granted, I’ve only spent two days with it, so I can’t share any long-term impressions. But I’m honestly unlikely to have any, because this isn’t a device that makes me want to use it more. And that’s fatal.

It’s not an iPad competitor or alternative. It’s not the same kind of device at all. And, whatever it is, it’s a bad version of it.

A human review of the Kindle Fire – Marco.org

[ort888]

If you're watching a movie with the Netflix app and want to turn the volume up, you have to quit the netflix app, launch the music app, adjust the volume, quit the music app and then relaunch the Netflix app.

No, seriously.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Here's the thing though. The iPad is a fairly silly device. No one really needs it. People love iPads because iPads are a delight to use. They are fun to interact with. Everything is so smooth and slick and easy. It makes up for the fact that it does a lot less then a traditional computer.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The majority of my friends and family would find the iPad to be the perfect computing device. It does everything they need a computer to do. I think the iPad/tablet is the future for the average consumer.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You lose.

As some may have pointed out before:

Simply petulantly repeating the same things over and over with complete disregard for ANYTHING anybody else has said doesn't make them true; it just makes you look four years old and deaf.

Which is why I chose an appropriate and unmisunderstandable response to your awesome comeback to Eug (who, if you have the slightest bit of sense, you will have to admit has a point).

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ort888 

If you're watching a movie with the Netflix app and want to turn the volume up, you have to quit the netflix app, launch the music app, adjust the volume, quit the music app and then relaunch the Netflix app.

No, seriously.

It looks like the Netflix app needs to be updated.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It looks like the Netflix app needs to be updated.

You're missing the point. The review is scathing. The entire device is a failure in the reviewer's eyes.

Moreover, there are no physical volume buttons. None. Lots of usage scenarios where it's a pain to change the volume when limited to doing it only by software.

Amazon cut every single corner they could to try to meet the $199 target manufacturing cost.

I've got 1 person taking me up on the $100 bet that the Fire will be a flop. I'll take on more people, because I know I'm going to make money on this.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It looks like the Netflix app needs to be updated.

It's not just the Netflix App... every app that plays sound will have to be custom developed to have special volume controls on the Fire.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

As some may have pointed out before:

Simply petulantly repeating the same things over and over with complete disregard for ANYTHING anybody else has said doesn't make them true; it just makes you look four years old and deaf.

Which is why I chose an appropriate and unmisunderstandable response to your awesome comeback to Eug (who, if you have the slightest bit of sense, you will have to admit has a point).

Shut up Spheric.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ort888 

It's not just the Netflix App... every app that plays sound will have to be custom developed to have special volume controls on the Fire.

Not necessarily custom developed. Updated to include it.

A better solution though is that the Fire OS should get an update to support it. I don't see this is a big deal though since it doesn't require a hardware update (even if a hardware update to include volume buttons would be preferred). That assumes an update comes quickly though. If Amazon drags its feet, then that would be lame.

[ort888]

You can't just make bets on a subjective term like "flop". You need to have some sort of actual tangible thing to bet against. The term "flop" means too many different things.

There needs to be some sort of concrete measurable metric and a concrete date for checking this metric.

[Eug]

I bet it will do better going forward than the TouchPad.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I bet it will do better going forward than the TouchPad.

It'll do better by being put inside a burning inferno to melt away and disappear from the world. Then we'd all be better off.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ort888 

You can't just make bets on a subjective term like "flop". You need to have some sort of actual tangible thing to bet against. The term "flop" means too many different things.

There needs to be some sort of concrete measurable metric and a concrete date for checking this metric.

6 months post-launch. Return rates above 4%, low consumer sell through (less than 750 k units SOLD and kept by consumers). Headline news articles and reports discussing sluggish sales, concern from investors, etc.

[Big Mac]

We're going to hold you to this freudling. You greatly underestimate Amazon's consumer reach. What happens when you're invariably shown to be wrong? The Fire is the first decent competition for the iPad, and if Apple doesn't act fast to counteract it, iPad market share will fall.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

6 months post-launch. Return rates above 4%, low consumer sell through (less than 750 k units SOLD and kept by consumers). Headline news articles and reports discussing sluggish sales, concern from investors, etc.

By those criteria, the TouchPad is a massive flop, and yet you recommend it to people.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

By those criteria, the TouchPad is a massive flop, and yet you recommend it to people.

The TouchPad failed at its original price point. At fire sale prices, they would have likely sold millions if they had the stock. If it really wasn't worth anything, people wouldn't pay a dollar for it...

The difference between the TouchPad and the Fire is that the Fire is a POS and the TouchPad isn't. Because it's a POS, I predict that the Fire will end up flopping, even though it's dirt cheap.

The TouchPad is no iPad, and isn't perfect, but it's one of the best tablets I've used besides the iPad. I use it everyday for at least a few hours. Epicurious for cooking, FaceBook, Email, Web browsing, Video, reading books, a dash of Angry Birds, Forbes Stock Magazine, Skype. Maps. All these Apps and more nicely customized just for the TouchPad. In today's world, the TouchPad works, and is modern. A few years down the road, it won't be. But it doesn't matter. Every year tech gets antiquated in the mobile space because of the pace of innovation. I buy all my mobile stuff knowing that after 1 year it'll be dated. So the TouchPad is a steal as far as I'm concerned. I'll be using it hard for 1-1.5 years, and likely move on. Everybody here really likes it. It's a nice go to device.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

We're going to hold you to this freudling. You greatly underestimate Amazon's consumer reach. What happens when you're invariably shown to be wrong? The Fire is the first decent competition for the iPad, and if Apple doesn't act fast to counteract it, iPad market share will fall.

Actually, no, I don't greatly underestimate Amazon's consumer reach. I think I know quite a bit about them. I've worked in publishing for some years, and lived in different countries. I know exactly what their reach is. Their penetration in other markets besides the US is much less than people think, and part of that is because of 1 major barrier to their entry: government regulation and collusion from existing online/brick and mortar businesses. They've been effectively snuffed out of the Canadian market, for instance, due to government meddling here.

In other countries, laws and regulations have made it so hard for them to sell to people online that they can't in many areas that they want to, or do it fully. Over the past 3 years, they've been working hard on their globalization efforts, and its a big part of why their margins have plummeted from their already weak margins: their profits now only scale at half the rate they used to in proportion to increased revenues. In other words, the costs of doing business, the tooth to tail ratio... the tail is too large.

Amazon is a big brand in the US, no doubt. And they have brand recognition across the world, but their reach isn't really global. Case in point. The Fire is only available to Americans, and the Kindle spent years stuck in the US.

Now, about me being wrong. If I am wrong, what happens to me? I get stoned. What will really happen is I will pay the person who I have a bet with, and the world will keep turning.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The TouchPad failed at its original price point. At fire sale prices, they would have likely sold millions if they had the stock.

I could have sworn you said price didn't matter in tablet sales?

Originally Posted by freudling 

Forget the price. It doesn't matter. And the reasons are plenty... but I don't think you know why it doesn't matter.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I could have sworn you said price didn't matter in tablet sales?

It doesn't matter when what you're selling is a POS. If Apple sold the iPad at $200 no question they'd probably sell more. But they can sell it for higher because it's worth more, not only the parts to build it, but to consumers. There's more value.

The problem that every would-be tablet maker has made now is to try and sell their stuff for less. The problem here is what they're selling is still a POS. People aren't buying them because they're slow, buggy, and generally a mess.

They first tried to sell their crapware at the same or similar price as the iPad. That didn't work. Now they're trying to sell for cheaper. Hurry, get your PlayBook on the $199 fire sale starting soon. Neither will work because their stuff sucks. Cheap Chinese knock offs of the real thing.

What matters is not price, but making a great product. The TouchPad I think is an anomaly. It's failure I would argue is more due to the management problems at HP and marketing than it being a total POS. The product itself in my view is great. But it wasn't given a fair chance by HP. webOS, effectively a new OS in the tablet game, needed more polish and more Apps when they went to market. Rubenstein was rushed to market and it was buggy, with lack lustre reviews.

You could also argue that the Fire was rushed to market and software fixes will make everything right. Except you'd be wrong because it really is a POS. It's totally stripped down to almost nothing so they could sell it for cheap. It lacks too much... and stuck on Android, which already limits it to being an under-performer, and makes too many compromises to be a useful tool to people.

[Wiskedjak]

You're so concerned with how much money Amazon, a company that doesn't rely on hardware sales in its business model, loses on each Fire; any idea how much money HP, a company that relies on hardware sales, would be making per Touchpad at $99?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

It doesn't matter when what you're selling is a POS. If Apple sold the iPad at $200 no question they'd probably sell more. But they can sell it for higher because it's worth more, not only the parts to build it, but to consumers. There's more value.

The problem that every would-be tablet maker has made now is to try and sell their stuff for less. The problem here is what they're selling is still a POS. People aren't buying them because they're slow, buggy, and generally a mess.

What matters is not price, but making a great product.

But, HP couldn't sell the Touchpad at a price that would profitable, and, unlike Amazon, HP actually relies on hardware sales for their bottom line. Clearly the Touchpad was a flop and a POS since no one would buy it for more than 1/3 of HPs cost on it.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

But, HP couldn't sell the Touchpad at a price that would profitable, and, unlike Amazon, HP actually relies on hardware sales for their bottom line. Clearly the Touchpad was a flop and a POS since no one would buy it for more than 1/3 of HPs cost on it.

Oversimplication, and ignoring reality.

We already know why reviewers, including myself, think the Fire is a POS. It has virtually nothing hardware wise, not even a volume button, and it's slow and choppy as hell, with a limited interface and App gateway.

Why is the TouchPad a POS?

Oh, wait, you've never even used one! That's right, you're trolling, because you love to come on here and argue. You live for it. It's like a drug to people like you. Yet, you don't truly believe some of what you write.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The difference between the TouchPad and the Fire is that the Fire is a POS and the TouchPad isn't. Because it's a POS, I predict that the Fire will end up flopping, even though it's dirt cheap.

The ACTUAL difference between the Fire and the TouchPad is that Amazon can afford to sell it at a loss, while HP couldn't.

So, at a price the consumer is willing to pay, the HP TouchPad is dead, while the Amazon Kindle Fire will continue to sell and won't hurt Amazon.

This is because the Kindle Fire isn't the actual product; it's the vehicle for the actual product, which Amazon's content.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Why is the TouchPad a POS?

I never said it was a "POS". You did. It meets all of your criteria defining a "flop"

Originally Posted by freudling 

6 months post-launch. Return rates above 4%, low consumer sell through (less than 750 k units SOLD and kept by consumers). Headline news articles and reports discussing sluggish sales, concern from investors, etc.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Oh, wait, you've never even used one!

Are you sure about that, or are you just making wild assumptions? The software development team I'm working on picked up a Touchpad shortly after launch to test our websites on and to eventually develop apps for. I actually don't mind the Touchpad.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by freudling 

We already know why reviewers, including myself, think the Fire is a POS.

He's a reviewer now.

It's slow and choppy as hell

That's a lot of BS. I've spent a good amount of time using the Fire, and it's not slow and choppy at all. It's quite zippy, in fact, to the extent that it exceeded my expectations and I was shocked by the speediness upon my initial use; my brother said the only time he's seen a slow-down since he got it was when he accidentally pressed the sleep button during a game, which he said doesn't count as a true slowdown. The Fire even provides a better standard of usability than the iPad with one of the most important sites online, youtube, since it supports the Flash content youtube has and doesn't spit you out into a separate app to watch videos.

freudling, everyone sees you have a strong bias against the Fire and Amazon generally. Do you think you're fooling anyone with this rhetoric? Does your mother work at Barnes and Noble or something?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The ACTUAL difference between the Fire and the TouchPad is that Amazon can afford to sell it at a loss, while HP couldn't.

So, at a price the consumer is willing to pay, the HP TouchPad is dead, while the Amazon Kindle Fire will continue to sell and won't hurt Amazon.

This is because the Kindle Fire isn't the actual product; it's the vehicle for the actual product, which Amazon's content.

Show the data/evidence that Amazon can afford to sell the Fire at a loss, where HP cannot afford to sell the TouchPad at the same loss per unit.

The only thing I agree with you is about the content: Amazon is trying it's damnedest to rope people in, and lock them down to their content. The problem is, the money isn't there. If you read their quarterly and annual reports, you'll see. Apple's got 2 legs up: they make actual, real money on their hardware sales, and they sell a ton of content. Amazon is like a one legged horse in this race.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

He's a reviewer now.


That's a lot of BS. I've spent a good amount of time using the Fire, and it's not slow and choppy at all. It's quite zippy, in fact, to the extent that it exceeded my expectations and I was shocked by the speediness upon my initial use; my brother said the only time he's seen a slow-down since he got it was when he accidentally pressed the sleep button during a game, which he said doesn't count as a true slowdown. The Fire even provides a better standard of usability than the iPad with one of the most important sites online, youtube, since it supports the Flash content youtube has and doesn't spit you out into a separate app to watch videos.

freudling, everyone sees you have a strong bias against the Fire and Amazon generally. Do you think you're fooling anyone with this rhetoric? Does your mother work at Barnes and Noble or something?

Show me the video of you using it. Of how well it performs. Everything you've said smacks in the face of the reality of the device. None of what you're saying is true about the Fire.

Here's a video that shows off Apps and features of the Fire. If you don't think this is slow and choppy... that it's a flawed colour reader... that it's a flawed tablet, you're insane. Jerky animations. Long pauses. Choppy pinch to zoom and scrolling.

Amazon Kindle Fire Review & Specifications - YouTube

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Show the data/evidence that Amazon can afford to sell the Fire at a loss, where HP cannot afford to sell the TouchPad at the same loss per unit.

The loss on hardware is, per last analysis I've read, somewhere around $4 per unit.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to infer that, on average, Amazon isn't going to make a loss on these things—four dollars isn't much content.

Originally Posted by freudling 

The only thing I agree with you is about the content: Amazon is trying it's damnedest to rope people in, and lock them down to their content. The problem is, the money isn't there. If you read their quarterly and annual reports, you'll see. Apple's got 2 legs up: they make actual, real money on their hardware sales, and they sell a ton of content. Amazon is like a one legged horse in this race.

Don't change the goalposts.

A second ago, you were comparing the Kindle Fire to the TouchPad.

We all know how Apple works. That's why they're selling the iPad for $500.

[Eug]

According to Amazon's brass, yes their main driver of profit with the Fire is the content, but their intent is to make a small profit on the hardware as well.

With the 3rd party estimates in November of the manufacturing cost of about $202, that sounds about right. With changing parts costs and increases in manufacturing efficiency, I could see manufacturing costs drop 15-25% next year, while they keep the $199 price constant.

[ort888]

That's the real question though. How much cash do you really make on content?

Apple doesn't make much on content, and they have the largest digital content store in the world many times over. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't digital content sales something like 2% of Apple's total profit?

I know this is pretty anecdotal, but everyone I know who wants a Fire wants it because it's a cheaper iPad. Keyword cheaper... key factor... CHEAPNESS. In other words, these people are cheap. They aren't going to blow a ton of money on movies songs and apps. These are people who make sacrifices to save a buck... and that has to be a big chunk of the people interested in the device.

I don't have a doubt that they can make some money from the device... the question is how much...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The loss on hardware is, per last analysis I've read, somewhere around $4 per unit.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to infer that, on average, Amazon isn't going to make a loss on these things—four dollars isn't much content.


Don't change the goalposts.

A second ago, you were comparing the Kindle Fire to the TouchPad.

We all know how Apple works. That's why they're selling the iPad for $500.

Amazon is losing money on every sale. It's not just hardware costs. There's R&D. Service and Support. And all the rest.

Their margins are razor thin on their content. This may not be sustainable. 16 years worth of profits = 3 months worth of Apple's. Amazon is tettering a fine line.

And now the Fire has to compete with the Kobo Vox and B&N Nook. It's not going to be easy.