[badidea]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

He also pretty much single-handedly drove away all the people who actually made the Lounge worthwhile, years ago.

I know what you mean and I really don't want him back but I think that MacNN became really boring sometimes around his bannination.
I don't think that it's directly related to him but it just seems that discussions changed. Maybe more people left....

Ok, it's just coincidence!

And you were probably even talking about the times before I was here...I don't know what I'm talking about...I'm ill anyway...I'll get myself another tea...and back to bed

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Regarding dwindling traffic, I am not sure what the cause is. vmarks, I think, has a point when he's saying that the demographics of the Mac community is changing rapidly these days, from a small, tightly knit community. Most of the community was in a few niches of IT: publishing, education, etc.

I can't pinpoint it either, but I do feel very strongly that the well meant splitting of the forums aren't helping.

If the mac-community is growing, so should MacNN don't you think? Instead we see a great decline in discussion related solely to the community part of it. On topic tech / mac / iPhone discussion might still be as strong as ever for what I know, but the lounge, and consequently the community, is suffering.

I don't think banning Kevin specifically had much to do with it - but forums do need contrarians. I think the blanket ban of Ca$h's threads showed that as well - it's a different way of handling things to old MacNN. We need the odd goofball/looney/troll - it keeps things interesting.

It might be a cornucopia of reasons: widened user base, more spread of social media or just lack of interest. Whatever it is, this factioning of topics isn't helping build it back up again. MacNN is currently spread too thin for its weakening base. It is time to consolidate and weather the initial chaos that would probably ensue. It is time to inject some life into this place again.

I say:

Clear out old grudges - remove permabans for the likes of Kevin and Rob.
Remove arbitrary separation of "sensitive"1) and "geeky"2) topics.
Bring back the fun and zaniness of the MacNN Lounge community.

1) Politics/War/Religion
2) Gaming

I'll say one thing: Dakar(n) for all his (seemingly) superfluous participation has really contributed in a good way of keeping the MacNN glue continuing. We need more of that. We need the Chris_v's and MindFads of old. The ones that tried disappearing into a Lifeboat (and bring whoever they could with them). We need a reason to resurrect the Demonhood appreciation thread. We need the nonsensical photoshops and the light cheeky sarcasm (as opposed to the heavy cynical sarcasm). In short: We need MacNN back. Its people and its culture.

Right now I don't know what we have. All I know is I don't like it.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I say:
Clear out old grudges - remove permabans for the likes of Kevin and Rob.

How do you propose to clear out old grudges, the mods have tried for years but some people just don't get a long. Just saying it and accomplishing it are two different things. As for the permabans, I think Rob continues to show why he's persona non grata. Just look at his last threads before his banning. If anything his antics detract from 'NN and make it less fun and remove the zaniness you so desire.

Remove arbitrary separation of "sensitive"1) and "geeky"2) topics.
Bring back the fun and zaniness of the MacNN Lounge community.

the separation of topics did not result in the lack of fun and zaniness of the lounge. In fact it brought quite a bit of civility with regards of moving topics to the PL

I agree that the Lounge has gotten more quiet and less active as it had in the past, some of that is a good thing (see my comment about Rob's behavior) some of it isn't. You cannot make the conclusion that separation of politics/religion and gaming are the cause of the lounge being less fun however.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

I agree that the Lounge has gotten more quiet and less active as it had in the past, some of that is a good thing (see my comment about Rob's behavior) some of it isn't. You cannot make the conclusion that separation of politics/religion and gaming are the cause of the lounge being less fun however.

Some of that is a good thing? Only if you are of the "get off my lawn you meddling kids" persuasion!

In my last post I tried arguing that they were not a direct cause, but rather that the consolidation of those would bring back some needed life into the lounge. But I guess if you are really looking for a peaceful and quiet retirement type of forum, then I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree with that one…

[Maflynn]

I'm just responding to your recommendations and stating that removing permabans isn't a good thing, having the politics/religion threads segregated is a good thing. If you consider acerbic inflammatory threads fun and zany then yes you are barking up the wrong tree, I don't and that's why I believe the overall health of the Lounge improved with those topics being going into the PL.

If you miss them so much perhaps you should frequent that forum (or perhaps you already do)

[- - e r i k - -]

If you have ever visited the PW Lounge you know that it is far from "zany" and "fun".

But yes, I can see why we are opposed on this issue. You seem to enjoy an insulated existence.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

If you have ever visited the PW Lounge you know that it is far from "zany" and "fun".

but yet you believe by merging the two, it will produce the fun and zaniness you desire - doesn't make sense. I generally don't go into the PL because its so caustic[/QUOTE]

But yes, I can see why we are opposed on this issue. You seem to enjoy an insulated existence.

Yes you are correct, I prefer not seeing inflammatory posts and threads and the lounge is a better place without the threads/posts that now reside in the PL

[- - e r i k - -]

Let me guess you prefer your radio with the bad words bleeped out and the no nakedness on TV too?

Nothing inflammatory meant, just trying to understand your point of view better.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Kevin?

He also pretty much single-handedly drove away all the people who actually made the Lounge worthwhile, years ago.

Nicks ?

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Why would that be so? How did Kevin drive anyone away?
Where did our stars go, btw?

To me, banning our colorful members (Kevin, Rob) made the Lounge tame and somewhat a bit more boring.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

If you have ever visited the PW Lounge you know that it is far from "zany" and "fun".

Maybe you should stop projecting.

Most people are very different than you. Your experience is not automatically how the average user would see things...

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I don't think banning Kevin specifically had much to do with it - but forums do need contrarians. I think the blanket ban of Ca$h's threads showed that as well - it's a different way of handling things to old MacNN. We need the odd goofball/looney/troll - it keeps things interesting.

I say:

Clear out old grudges - remove permabans for the likes of Kevin and Rob.
Remove arbitrary separation of "sensitive"1) and "geeky"2) topics.
Bring back the fun and zaniness of the MacNN Lounge community.

With this I can agree.

Permabans are not a good way of dealing with members acting up.

Give them a two week ban everytime they do it, if they don't change, they'd be temp-banned all the time. But give them a chance to come back and change.

-t

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

but yet you believe by merging the two, it will produce the fun and zaniness you desire - doesn't make sense.

That's precisely what I'm trying to say. If you don't like the PL, all that will happen if we merge it with the normal Lounge is that then you'll not like the normal Lounge either.

By the way, on the topic of MacRumors: It also has a separate PL.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

That's precisely what I'm trying to say. If you don't like the PL, all that will happen if we merge it with the normal Lounge is that then you'll not like the normal Lounge either..

Agreed, I wasn't making a case for that but rather stating what you just did. I don't like the behavior in the PL and while that does spill over into the lounge the moderation in the regular lounge is good.

[Railroader]

I think the simple creation of the gaming forum weakened the lounge forum quite a bit. Also, the demanding that anything electronics related go into the Consumer Hardware & Components forum weakened it substantially as well. I started a thread about a camcorder purchase and it was moved there and immediately died. All non-computer electronics discussions should be in the Lounge.

I suggest that MacNN should eliminate the general Gaming forum, but have a Macintosh Gaming forum in the Software forums. Then all non-Macintosh gaming discussions moved back into the Lounge. Also, move the Networking forum into the Hardware forums. Lastly, move the Art & Graphic Design forum into the Community forums. Having a "Other Topics" forum seems like poor design to me.

[subego]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

We need a reason to resurrect the Demonhood appreciation thread.

Well, the creator of that thread (perhaps one of my favorite posters in this forum ever) came back, started a vastly entertaining thread in the lounge about cheese, got it locked for "no semantic content" within the hour, and then told this place to **** off.

Can't really blame him. I was very close to not coming back myself after that one.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I think the simple creation of the gaming forum weakened the lounge forum quite a bit. Also, the demanding that anything electronics related go into the Consumer Hardware & Components forum weakened it substantially as well. I started a thread about a camcorder purchase and it was moved there and immediately died. All non-computer electronics discussions should be in the Lounge.

I suggest that MacNN should eliminate the general Gaming forum, but have a Macintosh Gaming forum in the Software forums.

Agree with all that.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Well, the creator of that thread (perhaps one of my favorite posters in this forum ever) came back, started a vastly entertaining thread in the lounge about cheese, got it locked for "no semantic content" within the hour, and then told this place to **** off.

You may have found that thread to be vastly entertaining. I suspect that a number of people who aren't in on the ongoing cheese joke would have found it as dull as sh!t and found themselves somewhat alienated.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I'd like to know why almost every single time somebody here dares to suggest a change be made to the forum, there are a handful of people who think it's appropriate to start attacking that person.

It's called conversation. It's what people do.

I'd like to know why, if you're not interested in anything other than the technical aspects of Macs, do you spend so much time in here observing the non-technical social interactions of other people? Not an attack - valid question.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I suspect that a number of people who aren't in on the ongoing cheese joke would have found it as dull as sh!t and found themselves somewhat alienated.

Was there an ongoing cheese joke at that time? Considering the moderation stance, I would imagine that would have been shut down too.

I've got to go, but I'll dig it up when I get back so you can judge for yourself. If you don't feel like waiting, the user in question is maxelson. It shouldn't be hard to find because the cheese thread (and I believe a fight in feedback) will be the last posts he made.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Kevin?

He also pretty much single-handedly drove away all the people who actually made the Lounge worthwhile, years ago.

I for one don't mind seeing him gone. A one man spam machine.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Was there an ongoing cheese joke at that time? Considering the moderation stance, I would imagine that would have been shut down too.

I've got to go, but I'll dig it up when I get back so you can judge for yourself. If you don't feel like waiting, the user in question is maxelson. It shouldn't be hard to find because the cheese thread (and I believe a fight in feedback) will be the last posts he made.

Wasn't the thread in question simply the last of the cheese threads? I'm sure there was some kind of cheese culture/in-joke going on way before that particular thread.

Edit: There ya go. Search for Max posts with keyword "cheese". And then try and deny that there was a dairy thing going on.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Oh please. Number one: My comment was a statement of fact, not snide.
Number two: This is completely unrelated. While spurred by the double standards of the lounge (religion can be brought up in a positive context, but when it is put in a negative light it is shut down), this is part of a much larger problem: The fact that the quality of discussion here has gone down since the well meant split and the current NN environment is hostile and dull.

The problem is that in the case of the Cohabitation thread, religion being "put in a negative light" was in the form of snarky comments like "Spoiler: No one listens when you pray."

The discussion was proceeding fine without those kinds of comments. They were irrelevant to the topic and unnecessary.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Wasn't the thread in question simply the last of the cheese threads? I'm sure there was some kind of cheese culture/in-joke going on way before that particular thread.

Edit: There ya go. Search for Max posts with keyword "cheese". And then try and deny that there was a dairy thing going on.

I never tried to deny that, thus my qualifier "at the time".

Max hadn't been around for months.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

The problem is that in the case of the Cohabitation thread, religion being "put in a negative light" was in the form of snarky comments like "Spoiler: No one listens when you pray."

Where's that I tried searching the thread, but couldn't find it. I certainly posted nothing of the kind.

I merely corrected a biblical misinterpretation from shif.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Wasn't the thread in question simply the last of the cheese threads? I'm sure there was some kind of cheese culture/in-joke going on way before that particular thread.

Edit: There ya go. Search for Max posts with keyword "cheese". And then try and deny that there was a dairy thing going on.

My memory of this was apparently a little hazy. Though there was a cheese thread I recall being locked immediately beforehand, the meltdown occurred over this thread.

Discussion continues here, and here.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego 

My memory of this was apparently a little hazy. Though there was a cheese thread I recall being locked immediately beforehand, the meltdown occurred over this thread.

Discussion continues here, and here.

Bizarre.
Thread shouldn't have really been locked, but then Max went all panty-wadded in the aftermath. <shrug>

Any way up, back on topic, I don't believe the place was more interesting when everyone was talking about cheese than it is now. Like I said, the cheese obsession (and all the in-jokes of the cheese crowd) could be seen as extremely alienating - as newcomers to the BBQ would generally discover.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Simon

I'd like to know why almost every single time somebody here dares to suggest a change be made to the forum, there are a handful of people who think it's appropriate to start attacking that person.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's called conversation. It's what people do.

Actually people do not attack each other when they have a conversation. That's called a fight.

If you disagree with an idea you debate that idea. Attacking the person behind the idea instead is immature and has nothing to do with a conversation. Usually it is a good indication that although somebody doesn't like an idea he lacks a good argument against it.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I'll say one thing: Dakar(n) for all his (seemingly) superfluous participation has really contributed in a good way of keeping the MacNN glue continuing. We need more of that. We need the Chris_v's and MindFads of old. The ones that tried disappearing into a Lifeboat (and bring whoever they could with them). We need a reason to resurrect the Demonhood appreciation thread. We need the nonsensical photoshops and the light cheeky sarcasm (as opposed to the heavy cynical sarcasm). In short: We need MacNN back. Its people and its culture.

I can get on board with that notion.

I agree, the lounge used to be waaay sillier than it is now and generally people were a lot friendlier to eachother as well.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I suggest that MacNN should eliminate the general Gaming forum, but have a Macintosh Gaming forum in the Software forums. Then all non-Macintosh gaming discussions moved back into the Lounge.

I'm down with this too, As it is there are only a handful of gaming threads sticking around and not many new ones are created. But then do iPhone games go in the lounge, or in the Software sub-forum? What about the iPhone forums?

Details....

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I'm down with this too, As it is there are only a handful of gaming threads sticking around and not many new ones are created. But then do iPhone games go in the lounge, or in the Software sub-forum? What about the iPhone forums?

Details....

iPhone games discussions should go in the iPhone/iPod section. I suspect a lot of people looking for iPhone info would never go anywhere else.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Simon 

If you disagree with an idea you debate that idea. Attacking the person behind the idea instead is immature and has nothing to do with a conversation. Usually it is a good indication that although somebody doesn't like an idea he lacks a good argument against it.

Please don't ignore his question.

[Maflynn]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

iPhone games discussions should go in the iPhone/iPod section. I suspect a lot of people looking for iPhone info would never go anywhere else.

I think thats one of those subjects that could possibly go in either forum and to be honest clear statement needs to be made by the mods. You can really make an argument to justify either forum.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Where's that I tried searching the thread, but couldn't find it. I certainly posted nothing of the kind.

I merely corrected a biblical misinterpretation from shif.

It was reported and promptly deleted, best I can tell.

[Dakar V]

I'm just glad I saw it, I loled.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Then all non-Macintosh gaming discussions moved back into the Lounge.

Originally Posted by sek929 

I'm down with this too, As it is there are only a handful of gaming threads sticking around and not many new ones are created.

I wasn't going to comment on the thread, but since you guys had this idea...

It won't work – that is, it won't work without fundamentally changing gaming threads participation yet again. If the Lounge is the bar of MacNN, the Gaming forum is the Frat House. A lot of what goes on in there will never make it in the more public eye of the Lounge.

Yeah, I didn't like being banished to Siberia in the beginning, but we've carved out our own little niche there, and now I don't want to be reintegrated.

...and trust me, at the rate I add info to gaming threads, Lounge people will complain that the gaming threads are dominating the forum and request they get their own area.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

...and trust me, at the rate I add info to gaming threads, Lounge people will complain that the gaming threads are dominating the forum and request they get their own area.

You have a point there. It is about the only reason I peruse the gaming forum.

[andi*pandi]

aw, a max thread.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Bizarre.
Thread shouldn't have really been locked, but then Max went all panty-wadded in the aftermath. <shrug>

Well, if I asked for a reason why my thread that (as you point out) shouldn't have been locked was locked, and received "because it was stupid" as a response, I might get wadded myself.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Yeah, I didn't like being banished to Siberia in the beginning, but we've carved out our own little niche there, and now I don't want to be reintegrated.

I've always gone on the record as being against the split, but at this point, if this is the way you feel it should be played, then that is simply the way it should be played.

You have my full support.

[Dakar V]

Sure there have been casualties... starman drowned when we failed to ford the river, and ::maroma:: died of dysentery, but we're all stronger for it.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Sure there have been casualties... starman drowned when we failed to ford the river, and ::maroma:: died of dysentery, but we're all stronger for it.

You're just pissed because I pwned you in Halo 3.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

..and trust me, at the rate I add info to gaming threads, Lounge people will complain that the gaming threads are dominating the forum and request they get their own area.

Is this the point where I start talking about quality vs. quantity?

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by starman 

You're just pissed because I pwned you in Halo 3.

My only memory of playing with you was an ill-advised 3 v 3 game of multi Flag on Isolation where we were teammates. Every player was engaged in a pretty heavy fire-fight the entire game, except you, who brought in 3 consecutive scores in a sunday-like stroll.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by starman 

Is this the point where I start talking about quality vs. quantity?

No need, we all know my posts are bereft of everything except numbers and letters.