[cornetet]

Hi... I'm brandnew to this forum.

I'm a PC Repair Tech and I recently decided to LEARN the ins&outs of the MacWorld. I've been schooled on PCs my whole tech-career....so I really really NEED your advise:

G4 PowerMacs are way too EXPENSIVE for me to buy just to mess-around with. I'm seeing quite a few PowerMac G3 Towers on EBAY selling for around $75 - $100. Its usually the Blue&White PowerMac G3 at 400Mhz, with 128mbz+ RAM and a 6GB+ Hard Drive

IS THIS AN OKAY MACHINE JUST TO LEARN THE MAC? OR IS THIS MACHINE A REALLY DOG & SHOULD BE AVOIDED?

Also....if I buy a cheap G3 @ 400Mhz:

>>> can Mac OS 10.x run on it?
>>> can I upgrade the HD to something like 40GB? can I use a standard IDE/ATA hard drive like Maxtor or WesternDigital

>>> I'm totally ignorant on hardware & software issues on the G3s and Macs in general SO YOU REALLY REALLY NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR ME!!

Thanks!!

[budster101]

Not to flame but:

You are a PC Tech guy. Can you read the basic requirements to run OS X?

http://www.apple.com/

Mac OS X Version 10.4 requires a Macintosh with:

PowerPC G3, G4, or G5 processor
Built-in FireWire
At least 256MB of physical RAM
A built-in display or a display connected to an Apple-supplied video card supported by your computer
At least 3.0 GB of available space on your hard drive; 4GB of disk space if you install XCode 2 developer tools
DVD drive for installation (get CD media for $9.95)

It's just a computer running a different operating system. A better one. By far.

Good luck, enjoy, welcome to the club, you'll never want a PC running Windows again.

Better yet, why not spring for a few more hundy and get one of these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/15-APPLE-POWERBO...QQcmdZViewItem

Just a thought...

[Link]

Originally Posted by cornetet

Also....if I buy a cheap G3 @ 400Mhz:

>>> can Mac OS 10.x run on it?

Yes, Upwards of 10.4 will run just fine. The *single most important thing* is to have enough ram: At least 512mb. The G3s use PC100 SDRAM, so it shouldn't be hard or expensive to get.

>>> can I upgrade the HD to something like 40GB? can I use a standard IDE/ATA hard drive like Maxtor or WesternDigital?

Yes, the G3s use ATA drives. Any G3 400 or 450 will probably have no problems at all with however many drives either (the early blue&whites did, though, so be careful)..

For more info on the PowerMac G3 you're looking at, you might want to consult http://www.apple-history.com -- they list all macs made in the last 20 years or so, including what kind of expension slots they have.

>>> I'm totally ignorant on hardware & software issues on the G3s and Macs in general

It's not that often that you see a hardware<>software conflict with a Mac because the OS is made specifically for the platform, not to work with a bunch of white box computers.

Please keep in mind though, the B&W G3s were made in 1998 and 1999, so these are 5-6 year old machines and sometimes 7 year old machines (though rarely). They won't run OS X very snappy, but they will run it.

Welcome aboard! I wish you luck, and I'm sure that others here will provide tons of assistance too OS-wise, things should be pretty straight forward -- the biggest difference is you have a dock, the "systray" is replaced with menu icons at the top right, and the window controls are on the top left. There are an *immense* amount of shortcuts and hotkeys you'll find that can save you time as well, but those aren't necessary just yet.

[cornetet]

Thanks for your quick responses.

I was looking for some REAL HANDS-ON advise...and you gave me that. I didn't want to read some basic requirement outline when I knew you guys would give me the inside scoop.

[EFFENDI]

Join the club man! I'm also a PC-Tech guy (hey, thank Microsoft and PC hardware conflicts for giving us work!) that is getting into Apple computers. The only thing I find myself asking myself is why I didn't just get an Apple earlier.

I'm kind of gald this thread is here because I didn't want to be the one to start it, but I was wondering if the PowerMac G4 Cube is at all worth getting. I know that these computers are highly upgradeable, but I was wondering specifically If I should buy one (cheaply) and spend several hundred dollars upgrading it to a dual processor machine, or just hold out and get a (much more expensive) PowerMac G5?? The work I intend to do would be graphic design using Photoshop. A lot of Audio Production (Reason, Logic Pro), and some light digital video editing (with the capability to do HD video, once I get a HD camera).

[sworthy]

if you're looking to do HD video, you're only option is to go with a G5 - Cube's are sexy looking, but not really up to that kind of work.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by sworthy

if you're looking to do HD video, you're only option is to go with a G5 - Cube's are sexy looking, but not really up to that kind of work.

Agreed.

I would get one to connect to a home theater projection or something or for casual stuff, but not serious work.

[Eriamjh]

Exactly what do you want to learn? How to use OSX? How to repair Macs? The specs and capabilities and bugs of each system?

I switched to Mac back in 2000 and have been using OS9 and OSX since then (starting with 10.1). My advice is to get a couple books on Macs and the OS and learn about the OS (OSX in particular). Read everything you can like you were a student going to take a test.

Start with the most recent stuff and work your way backwards as you need to. Read the questions and visit this forum frequently and even you will know what a CUDA switch is!

If you really want experience, sell your PC and buy a G5 Mac now (or just buy a G5). Using it is the easiest way to learn. Dive in, the water's fine!

[bowwowman]

Dude.....your gettin a Mac
welcome to "real" computing!

The rev 2 B&W G3's were really a turning point for macs as far as using mostly standard peecee parts like ATA HD's, RAM, pci slots, ect ect. Even though some things like video cards need specific mac roms, that trend continues even today....

As for learning & tinkering around inside, a B&W would make an great starter system, but an AGP based G4/Sawtooth would be just a bit better, and for only a few more $$, you would gain several more upgrade options in the long run

[OreoCookie]

Just keep in mind that Windows XP is also not that much fun with a 400 MHz-class pc. Depending on what you do, your mileage may vary.

[Thade]

A Sawtooth is a great starter system. They are decent performers stock and also a lot more worthy of upgrades that a G3. IF you later decide to put a few bucks into it, a CPU upgrade, video card & RAM will transform a Sawtooth 450-500 into somewhat of a powerhouse.

[Lateralus]

Indeed.

I adore B&W G3s because among other things, they're probably going to end up enjoying full software support from Apple longer than any other Power Mac because they were the first Power Macs to be based on UMA. They're also incredibly reliable, especially the Rev 2 models, and expansion possibilities are great.

That said, Sawtooth prices have dropped quite a bit in recent months and the difference in cost between a B&W and a Sawtooth on eBay is now as little as $50.

With the Sawtooth, you get to enjoy video cards that support Core Image (namely the 9800 Pro) and continued processor upgrade releases, with 7448 G4 upgrades expected to ship this fall at 2GHz+.

[G5power]

Cornetet - Welcome to the world of Apple. I would second most of the advice that you've been given. I started lurking on this and a few other Apple forums late last year. My initial approach was to learn a broader overview of the Apple side and build my knowledge to select an Apple system. I have owned/built/networked PC's since the late 80's and am very comfortable with PC hardware and the various Windows OS.

Even before you get an Apple system, I would encourage you to buy a copy of David Pogue's Mac OS X: The Missing Manual - Tiger Ed. For $20 you will have an awesome book that will help you make the transition to Apple.

Also give some thought to how you plan to use the hardware. If you are looking for the Apple to be a 2nd or 3rd system, then performance won't be as much of an issue. I would still encourage you to look for at least an early G4 Powermac with AGP. It will have decent performance and have good options for upgrading. The site http://www.apple-history.com/ that Link mentioned is an awesome resource for learning the Apple hardware specs and keeping the various models straight.

For what it's worth after looking for a 400 MHz G4 to use as a 2nd computer, I found a great deal on an 867MHz dual processor and have been using it as my primary computer. As mentioned above - plan on at least 512MB of memory for OS X. With my system I've bumped the memory to 1.5GB and am very happy with the performance.

As far as upgrades and parts - for my G4, I have purchased Centon PC3200 memory from CompUSA and it has worked great plus it's been very reasonable in price. For additional hard drive space I have added a Seagate 7200 RPM IDE drive. I replaced the original CD drive with a Pioneer DVR-109 from Newegg.com at a reseanable price.

Good luck and have fun.

[Thade]

Hmmm this aint bad for a G3:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-G3-B-W-Rev...QQcmdZViewItem

[EFFENDI]

"Sawtooth"is referring to the PowerMac G3s that have AGP instead of PCI video cards, correct?

I plan to get a new G5 PowerMac within the next two months, but in the meantime I want something to play around on to learn OSX and do some basic graphics work. ubid.com has some of the blue and white PowerMac G3s for less than $100.00, would it be worth it??

here is the link: http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage...onId=601457255

[Colonel Panic]

Yes, the PCI graphics version was called "Yikes!", but both were early G4s, not G3s.

[Lateralus]

$89 for a 450MHz B&W with 256MBs of RAM is really not that bad of a deal at all. I ran Panther on a 450MHz B&W last year for a few months and the speed was more than adequate.

Plus, all 450MHz models are Revision 2 machines, so you wouldn't have to worry about any IDE wonkiness.

[EFFENDI]

Should I go for it?

[Kyros]

I would say yes. Then upgrade the RAM and probably the hard drive. It will be a little sluggish since it's only 450, but you'll still see what the OS is like and all that.

[marc]

If what you want to learn how to fix Mac's, and you want a cheap machine you can mess around with, then an old machine is fine. However, to be a Mac Tech you have to be familiar will all the models. Having one old machine will not help that much (you will notice that they are generally easier to get around inside). I suggest you go to http://www.apple.com/training/ and learn about Apple's training programs.

As a former tech who supported thousands of Mac's (one person can do that in Macland), I can tell you that user support is often more important than hardware support. If you want to learn about OS-X and Mac software then I suggest buying the bottom of the line mini, an Apple keyboard (because the keys are laid out differently) and using your own monitor and mouse. The mini is not a machine designed to be easily taken apart, but they are cheap and a good introduction to current Mac hardware and software.

Mac's do love RAM, so your first hardware project can be putting in a 1 GB stick. A later project could be putting in a better hard drive. Get the OS and software stuff down first.

HTH

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by budster101

Not to flame but:

You are a PC Tech guy. Can you read the basic requirements to run OS X?

http://www.apple.com/

System requirements are often not really very useful.

Check out that they are for XP (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...n/sysreqs.mspx) and tell me if you'd advise anyone to pick up a machine like that to learn windows.

[OreoCookie]

A G3 400 will be ok. Like running XP on a P3 ~500-600 with enough RAM, maybe better. You'll need at least 512 MB RAM, though, as OS X needs more RAM than XP.

[EFFENDI]

I just have a few questions. Things I couldnt find here on the forum or on Apple's site so here goes:

Does Apple use proprietary RAM in its machines? Do you have to buy "Apple only" memory?

In a PC, using the motherboard BIOS, I like to be able to disable ports that I dont use, and tweak system settings for better performance. What is Apple's approach to this?

What is the OSX equivalent of XP's virtual memory? Some XP tweaks allow you to cache the system kernel in main memory (if you have 512MB+ of RAM), can you do this on OSX?

One more thing, does Apple's, VirtualPC really run Windows???

[EFFENDI]

Originally Posted by GSixZero

System requirements are often not really very useful.

Check out that they are for XP (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...n/sysreqs.mspx) and tell me if you'd advise anyone to pick up a machine like that to learn windows.

Those requirements are awfully vague... I have a couple machines that are that same spec and they run XP very s l o w l y.

I would say if you want to get anything done at all in XP, you need at least 512MB of RAM. a AGP 4X video card with minimum of 64MB of video memory, and a 7200RPM ATA133 harddrive.

[GSixZero]

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

Does Apple use proprietary RAM in its machines? Do you have to buy "Apple only" memory?

Nope, Apple uses off the shelf RAM. Current machines are using PC3200, PC2700, and PC2100 RAM.

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

In a PC, using the motherboard BIOS, I like to be able to disable ports that I dont use, and tweak system settings for better performance. What is Apple's approach to this?

Macs don't have BIOS, they use open firmware which isn't nearly as user accessible or modifiable. It can be tweaked this way and that, but it's not as easy as hitting del at start up and cruising around a setup screen.

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

What is the OSX equivalent of XP's virtual memory? Some XP tweaks allow you to cache the system kernel in main memory (if you have 512MB+ of RAM), can you do this on OSX?

I haven't heard of anything like this, but I haven't tried to do this either.

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

One more thing, does Apple's, VirtualPC really run Windows???

Yep, it's really windows.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

I just have a few questions. Things I couldnt find here on the forum or on Apple's site so here goes:

Does Apple use proprietary RAM in its machines? Do you have to buy "Apple only" memory?

No, all Macs which officially supported any flavor of OS X either used standard SDRAM or standard DDR-SDRAM.

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

In a PC, using the motherboard BIOS, I like to be able to disable ports that I dont use, and tweak system settings for better performance. What is Apple's approach to this?

Apple's approach is that you don't have to touch the OpenFirmware (the equivalent of the BIOS). You usually don't tweak your system at all, it just works. It's basically only for diagnostics and such.

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

What is the OSX equivalent of XP's virtual memory? Some XP tweaks allow you to cache the system kernel in main memory (if you have 512MB+ of RAM), can you do this on OSX?

The equivalent of virtual memory is virtual memory. You do not have to tweak OS X' memory management and you shouldn't, unless you know exactly what you want to do.
On XP systems, most hacks don't result in any improved gains, btw, they rely on the patented placebo effect.

Originally Posted by EFFENDI

One more thing, does Apple's, VirtualPC really run Windows???

Yes. You need a Windows licence, though. VirtualPC is created by a company which is owned by M$, not Apple.

[EFFENDI]

Thanks, you guys are awesome.

I dont know why I asked about the kernel cacheing system, just curious I suppose.

I guess to better understand OSX I should probably read up on UNIX......

I'll probably hang on to my PC system then, sounds like Apple hardware isnt the most easily tweaked.

[OreoCookie]

You don't really need to tweak Apple hardware (I'm not quite sure what you mean by tweak here, overclock?). Also, you don't need to understand Unix to use OS X.

[EFFENDI]

I only meant I'd hang onto my PC to fulfill my tweaking desires (overclocking, yes). Of course I still want a Mac.

I am just the kind of person that likes to get to the nitty-gritty and learn about the underlying structure and learn how things work. I like to tinker and play with things. You find out how something does what it does....and why wouldn't you want to be able to squeeze every last bit of performance out of a system if it doesnt cost you anything??

I understand that I don't need to know UNIX to use OSX. From what little knowledge I have about OSX, it does have a full on command-line interface for UNIX, I don't think its unreasonable to want to take advantages of some of the UNIX bits. Forgive me if you think I am starting e-drama, but I am sincerely interested in purchasing a powermac, and before I spend close to 5 grand, I'd like to learn as much as possible about the product.