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jeff k · Dec 24, 2009, 04:24 PM

Without getting into boot camp or virtual Mac, is there a software or website that could accurately show a Mac user what a windows user sees in internet explorer?

turtle777 · Dec 24, 2009, 04:30 PM

Crossover for Mac.

Or Wine. But, with all due respect, I don't think your level of expertise would be enough to make it work.

-t

jeff k · Dec 24, 2009, 05:02 PM

thanks Turtle.
Yeah, I just want ease and simplicity. In fact I have windows on a laptop, so if it's more complicated that rebooting there and holding option down, waiting for windows then it defeats purpose. I want it simpler than that.
What's complex about it?
How do they achieve real windows without doing emulation?

TETENAL · Dec 24, 2009, 05:47 PM

VirtualBox

turtle777 · Dec 24, 2009, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by jeff k

thanks Turtle.
Yeah, I just want ease and simplicity. In fact I have windows on a laptop, so if it's more complicated that rebooting there and holding option down, waiting for windows then it defeats purpose. I want it simpler than that.
What's complex about it?
How do they achieve real windows without doing emulation?

Nothing's complex if you use Crossover. But it's not free.

-t

besson3c · Dec 24, 2009, 06:11 PM

Crossover Office/WINE, while great in so many ways, can never seem to keep up with Internet Explorer anyway since it is so deeply engrained into Windows. Your best bet is IE 7: WineHQ - Internet Explorer . However, I wouldn't bother with this solution since the imperfections may also lead to you not getting an identical experience to Windows users, esp. when it comes to ActiveX stuff. I often recommend WINE for stuff, it's great for games for instance, but IE is just a complete PITA.

Virtualbox is a great and free solution for running Windows on your Mac without leaving OS X. Others are VMWare Fusion and Parallels, although these cost money.

Note that Wine/Crossover Office is *not* a form of emulating Windows, it provides you with a reverse engineered Windows environment by devising a new site of reverse engineered Windows APIs that work in a Unix environment. Virtualbox/VMWare/Parallels are emulators, although since the CPUs that drive OS X and Windows are identical now, the only thing that is emulated is video, sound, and network access, which unless you are playing video games can provide you with very fast usage. Even for video games some of these virtualization solutions are making inroads into DirectX support for DirectX based games.

Boot Camp is neither an emulator or a reverse engineered Windows, it is simply a set of Windows drivers so that you can boot into Windows on your Mac and for all of your Mac's hardware to be fully supported. Once you are booted into Windows, you are *completely* out of Apple territory and outside of any sort of environment that Apple has any part of - you are in a complete, native, fully functioning Windows environment just like any other PC.

Just wanted to clear up the differences between these various solutions in hopes that this helps!

besson3c · Dec 24, 2009, 06:15 PM

Also, Crossover just gives you an easy GUI install to setup WINE and preconfigure the most ideal settings for you depending on what app you use. If you are content to follow the recipes provided for getting an app to work in the WINE app database, you don't really need Crossover. Many apps, esp. games, run just perfectly out of the box anyway with no tweaking necessary. It's always worth trying your app/game in WINE first before committing yourself to paying for Crossover.

turtle777 · Dec 24, 2009, 06:18 PM

I agree with Besson, none of the virtual solutions (Crossover, Wine) will give you exactly the same IE experience as Windows users get.

Why don't you give Virtualbox a try, since it's free.

-t

besson3c · Dec 24, 2009, 06:28 PM

Virtualbox doesn't seem to be discussed around here a whole lot because while it has been a strong solution under Solaris and Linux for a while (it's actually front and center in Sun's entire big enterprise virtualization product offerings), it has been missing some things on the Mac side, I think. However, most recently it has gained a lot in the way of features and support for stuff, and I've always found it slightly faster than VMWare.

Virtualbox is really a very good solution. I've only found one bug with it involving running it on multiple monitors, but otherwise it has been very solid for me in running Solaris, FreeBSD, and Windows XP.

jeff k · Dec 24, 2009, 08:21 PM

thanks Besson,
with Virtual, do you need to own a copy of windows?

ghporter · Dec 24, 2009, 08:51 PM

You do need a copy of Windows for things like Virtualbox, Fusion or Parallels to work.

mdc · Dec 24, 2009, 09:27 PM

Cross Browser Testing. Pick an OS, Pick a Browser, Test website

jeff k · Dec 24, 2009, 09:52 PM

MDC,
nice idea, don't use this enough to spend $20/month.

thanks GH, need a copy on windows for Cossover. Honestly, once I get a copy, I'd just get bootcamp and I'm done.

ghporter · Dec 24, 2009, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by jeff k

thanks GH, need a copy on windows for Cossover. Honestly, once I get a copy, I'd just get bootcamp and I'm done.

Actually, Crossover runs Windows programs. I use it for a few nice little utilities that aren't available on Mac OS, like the Treasury Department's Savings Bond Wizard.

But if you're going to get a copy of Windows anyway, Boot Camp is the way to go, because you will be running all the Windows apps in a real Windows environment.

jeff k · Dec 24, 2009, 10:34 PM

Not sure 100% going to have real windows yet, so I'm inquiring.
Crossover -- don't need copy of windows and runs real apps?
How complex? How fast does it get rolling?
(I'm remember virtual PC was was too sluggish and convoluted....)

ghporter · Dec 24, 2009, 11:44 PM

Crossover takes a little time to set up an "environment" for your apps, and doesn't necessarily run all of them. Once set up, a Crossover-hosted app will run pretty fast, but I've found that they start relatively slowly. Crossover will not provide an accurate version of what IE will show a Windows user, though there's no specific oddities with this combination-it just won't be right.

The Windows emulators like Virtualbox and Fusion run Windows in a simulated hardware setup which takes more effort to set up, but once you have it set, it's much faster.

turtle777 · Dec 24, 2009, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by jeff k

Not sure 100% going to have real windows yet, so I'm inquiring.
Crossover -- don't need copy of windows and runs real apps?
How complex? How fast does it get rolling?
(I'm remember virtual PC was was too sluggish and convoluted....)

Seriously, if Virtual PC was too convoluted for you, you need to stay away from Wine or Crossover.

Virtualbox, Fusion or Parallels is your options, al of those require a copy of Windows.

-t

besson3c · Dec 24, 2009, 11:55 PM

Any speed gains you notice in running in a virtualized environment are likely due to bugs in WINE/Crossover, as in theory the exact opposite should hold true: apps should run faster in Crossover/WINE. A virtualized environment needs more resources for running the entire OS, the hyperviser (the software that allows you to run an OS within an OS), and for reserving RAM for this environment (an OS does not run smoothly at all when it is RAM starved).

If you do wish to run virtualization software such as Virtualbox you'll need to have a lot of spare RAM. Crossover/WINE is the most lightweight way to run certain apps, but like has been said, the results vary. Check your app compatibility in the WINE app webpage/database if you'd like to know in advance what to expect. The link to this page for Internet Explorer is in one of my last posts.

besson3c · Dec 25, 2009, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Seriously, if Virtual PC was too convoluted for you, you need to stay away from Wine or Crossover.

Virtualbox, Fusion or Parallels is your options, al of those require a copy of Windows.

-t

I agree with Turtle, but if your app runs right out of the box in WINE without fiddling, this would be extremely easy to setup too. Check the app database. If it doesn't run without tweaking, I agree with sticking with Virtualbox or one of the others. You'll get predictable results running them this way - it will work perfectly if you can get Windows setup (and it's not a game that requires 3D support).

hookem2oo7 · Dec 25, 2009, 12:35 AM

I have used ies4osx before it was integrated into the wine package database and it worked, albeit slowly. It'd be worth a shot, just give it a quick search.

King Bob On The Cob · Dec 25, 2009, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by jeff k

Not sure 100% going to have real windows yet, so I'm inquiring.
Crossover -- don't need copy of windows and runs real apps?
How complex? How fast does it get rolling?
(I'm remember virtual PC was was too sluggish and convoluted....)

Parallels, VMWare, or Virtualbox are all nice solutions, but they run like Virtual PC, in that they are actually running a copy of Windows side by side with OS X. Comparing them to Virtual PC on the Mac is not really fair though. Virtual PC is going to be way slower than any of these solutions because they work in fundamentally different ways to get to the same end (Running Windows). If you thinking about Boot Camp, I would strongly recommend one of these virtualization clients instead, as they will allow you to run windows without the restart and flip back and forth between the two environments.

You need a full copy of Windows to verify that the site looks correctly in IE, no way around it. Crossover doesn't emulate IE's rendering engine perfectly, so that's out.

besson3c · Dec 25, 2009, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

You need a full copy of Windows to verify that the site looks correctly in IE, no way around it. Crossover doesn't emulate IE's rendering engine perfectly, so that's out.

Not to sound like I'm contradicting you, but I'd say that IE's rendering engine isn't the problem (with exception to providing all of the most recent Windows fonts which are important for testing pages), but in supporting all of the other stuff that IE does, ActiveX plugin installation, etc. Last I tried IE it was also very quirky, but that being said, when it did render pages it rendered them as expected.

Then again, you can remove all doubt by adhering to your fine suggestion!

ibook_steve · Dec 25, 2009, 03:03 AM

Let's move this to Alternative Operating Systems where it belongs.

Steve