[Athens]

Im starting to understand why so many Californians bitch about Mexicans. In the last 3 weeks there have been about 200 Mexican guests, half from the US, the rest from Central America. NOT A SINGLE WORD OF ENGLISH out of any of them. For the 50% from the US mostly California, how can they live there and not pick up even the simpliest words like numbers even. It seems to me they just dont want to learn english at all. Ether way I guess I should start learning Spanish. At least the Germans, Dutch and French can speak some english when they visit.

[loki74]

heh... this type of post is not something I would expect from you, but I totally agree. I mean, everyone complains about us Americans only knowing English, but (and I can only speak for myself) if I visit a foreign country, even if they speak English, I'll try to learn some of the language. At the very least get one of those books that troubled travellers are always frantically flipping through and misreading in funny movies.

btw, Athens, I guessing you can probably speak French as well?

[Millennium]

I'm with the two of you on this one. I view trying to at least learn a little of the language of the nation you're visiting (or moving to) as a matter of courtesy more than anything else. Everywhere I go that I've done this, people have appreciated the effort, and I can't say I blame them; I appreciate it too.

I understand that English is a difficult language to learn, and despite my relatively grammar-Nazi-esque attitude towards native speakers I cut those for whom it's a second language a lot of slack. Then again, it seems that a lot of the people I know who speak English as a second language speak it better than most of the native speakers nowadays.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by loki74

heh... this type of post is not something I would expect from you, but I totally agree. I mean, everyone complains about us Americans only knowing English, but (and I can only speak for myself) if I visit a foreign country, even if they speak English, I'll try to learn some of the language. At the very least get one of those books that troubled travellers are always frantically flipping through and misreading in funny movies.

btw, Athens, I guessing you can probably speak French as well?

I can count to 10 in french, and say a couple words otherwise no. For this job I have been thinking about learning German, Spanish and French because of the big groups we get from the 3 places.

BTW you both missed my point. Half of them are US Citizens and they cant speak a word of english. Its more you figure they would learn a little of the lang of the place they call home over visiting. Unless southern US only speak spanish then im wrong eh hehe.

[TETENAL]

If half of them were US-Hispanics and half of them were Mexicans why should they speak English? When I meet an Austrian in France I don't speak French with him. Seems silly to me.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If half of them were US-Hispanics and half of them were Mexicans why should they speak English? When I meet an Austrian in France I don't speak French with him. Seems silly to me.

you figure some one who lives in California for at least 5 years will at least learn some english, they didn't even understand numbers in english, room 506 huh oh let me write that down for u, huh ohhh ok

[RAILhead]

I HATE it when a Mexican woman or man has to have her CHILD ask questions because the adult can't speak the language.

If I go visit Italy, do I expect everyone to speak English for me?
If I go visit Germany, do I expect everyone to speak German for me?

No. If I want to communicate, I should learn THEIR language.

Of course, being in the capitalist construction industry of South Texas, we employ hundreds of Mexicans -- but I'm all for the Work Visa idea.

Maury

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

I HATE it when a Mexican woman or man has to have her CHILD ask questions because the adult can't speak the language.

I think that is at least a little more understandable -- in many cases, the parent is the immigrant, and the child was born here or spent enough of their lives here to have grown up speaking English with friends. Some people just don't have enough confidence in their English-speaking abilities, and if their kid knows English better why not let them speak?

I agree that as a matter of courtesy, people living in the U.S. should know at least enough basic spoken English to interact with others -- knowing numbers so they buy stuff, knowing how to recieve basic directions, and basic communication phrases. But that's just to make their lives easier in this country when they interact with the average American. Nobody can force them to learn basic English, and there are entire communities in the U.S. where English is rarely spoken, and they don't have as much of a pressing need to learn basic English. If they're more comfortable that way, good for them!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

I HATE it when a Mexican woman or man has to have her CHILD ask questions because the adult can't speak the language.

If I go visit Italy, do I expect everyone to speak English for me?
If I go visit Germany, do I expect everyone to speak German for me?

No. If I want to communicate, I should learn THEIR language.

Of course, being in the capitalist construction industry of South Texas, we employ hundreds of Mexicans -- but I'm all for the Work Visa idea.

Maury

In Germany, many people can actually speak English and do so, unlike in France or Japan, for instance.

But I agree, most people appreciate if the visitor makes an effort to speak their language.

[ghporter]

When I lived in Panama and Honduras, I always tried to speak as much Spanish as possible, depending on the charity of the locals to go along with my poor vocabulary and atrocious grammar. They were always happy to help me out, correct my grammar and teach me new words. My behavior was what I thought of as being a "good guest" in their country, and they seemed to agree.

In the Summer of 2003 I visited North Little Rock, Arkansas and got a real shock. I came across people working there in food service and other low-level jobs who spoke NO English, only Spanish. Now let me point out that I live in San Antonio, Texas; I am used to being around people who are more comfortable in Spanish than in English, and those who have recently immigrated and have not yet picked up enough English to depend on. These workers in Little Rock were different-they weren't even TRYING to learn English, and they took my Spanish as an offense. It blew my mind.

My wife's great-grandfather decreed that his family would no longer speak German anywhere. They had settled in America and they would need English to succeed, so a clean break was needed for them to "think American" and begin to fit in. This was the model most immigrants followed up through the middle of the last century.

Since then many immigrant groups have fallen into two camps; a small one that believes in retaining their culture and language while adapting to the local culture and learning the local language, and a much larger one that eschews the local language and culture. This larger group seems to want all the benefits of America without the cost of learning English or the effort needed to at least coexist with American culture. I firmly believe that the benefits of living here SHOULD AT LEAST cost trying to learn English and cooperating with American culture. It is what I would do-AND HAVE DONE-in other countries, and I see any other behavior as offensive.

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by ghporter

In the Summer of 2003 I visited North Little Rock, Arkansas and got a real shock. I came across people working there in food service and other low-level jobs who spoke NO English, only Spanish. Now let me point out that I live in San Antonio, Texas; I am used to being around people who are more comfortable in Spanish than in English, and those who have recently immigrated and have not yet picked up enough English to depend on. These workers in Little Rock were different-they weren't even TRYING to learn English, and they took my Spanish as an offense. It blew my mind.

I would blame the employers, not the workers. Immigrants can elect to learn English or not; they can get by without knowing English, but their opportunities in this country will be limited. that's not discrimination, that's the simple fact that many jobs require communication skills in English. The employers, on the other hand, are lax in enforcing that people who interact with customers ought to be able to understand the basics of the language they are interacting in. Of course, the reason they do it is because they can get non-English speaking workers cheaper.

There's a relevant situation going on here in Rochester. Apparently, a hospital hired some cleaninfg staff that didn't understand English very well to work on a shift of a Puerto Rican supervisor, stuff happened, and some sort of "English-Only" policy (which was either binding at all times or not, depending on who you talk to) was instituted. Now, both sides are saying different things, and there's an issue of whether speaking English is a required part of cleaning rooms in a hospital. But if it is, why were these people hired in the first place?

[zwiebel_]

Literally translated:

The more languages you sepak the more you are worth.

No?

My 100 post! YAY

[loki74]

Originally Posted by ghporter

Since then many immigrant groups have fallen into two camps; a small one that believes in retaining their culture and language while adapting to the local culture and learning the local language, and a much larger one that eschews the local language and culture. This larger group seems to want all the benefits of America without the cost of learning English or the effort needed to at least coexist with American culture. I firmly believe that the benefits of living here SHOULD AT LEAST cost trying to learn English and cooperating with American culture. It is what I would do-AND HAVE DONE-in other countries, and I see any other behavior as offensive.

couldnt agree more. This reminds me of that whole situation a while back with some Middle Eastern/Muslim kids wanting to wear some sort of clothing that violates a school dress code or something like that. I suppose what I mention is a bit off topic, but it did come to mind when reading this...

Athens; yes that is quite true as well... I think its the same point actually, just made a whole lot stronger by what you point out--a lot of them are citizens... they definately should learn the language of (what is now) their own country

[Sky Captain]

I speak pretty good German and Spanish. And enough French to piss off a Frenchman.
I had to learn Spanish as I fly in Mexico and Central America sometimes.

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by zwiebel_

Literally translated:

The more languages you sepak the more you are worth.

No?

My 100 post! YAY

Probably the most insightful 100th post here.

There will always be jobs that involve knowing multiple languages. If you have the ability to become proficient in the several, you will always have a job. This hs a Good Thing.

[nonhuman]

At least here in California, the Spanish speakers are well on their way to being the majority (probably already are, really). Seems to me that it's the minority English-only speakers who should be accommodating them by learning Spanish.

[UNTeMac]

In an ideal world, Americans would learn Chinese and Spanish as well as English growing up. We'd avoid situations like this entirely. I bet we'll see Spanish overtake English in the U.S. by the end of the century.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

In an ideal world, Americans would learn Chinese and Spanish as well as English growing up. We'd avoid situations like this entirely. I bet we'll see Spanish overtake English in the U.S. by the end of the century.

that would be a tragic thing, i think.

[James L]

Athens,

If this truly surprises you, I can only conclude that you have spent very little time speaking with a big chunk of the people who live in Surrey and Richmond. There are MANY that have no English skills whatsoever.

Cheers!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by James L

Athens,

If this truly surprises you, I can only conclude that you have spent very little time speaking with a big chunk of the people who live in Surrey and Richmond. There are MANY that have no English skills whatsoever.

Cheers!

I lived in Richmond for a Year, and I currently live in Surrey right now. I have not meet any one that didn't have the very basics of English, like Hello, sorry, numbers, what is called functional English. These Mexicans with US citizenships spoke NOTHING, saying Room 204 I had to write it down, they didn't even understand 2 0 4.

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by loki74

that would be a tragic thing, i think.

I think tragic only because it might make it harder on us old farts (by then) to keep up. The English language may be part of our history, but diversity is really our heritage and hopefully our aim. America's current days of economic dominance will be ending soon as the next wave of modernization sweeps the globe and so our brand of English may fall behind in this country. English may be spoken throughout the world, but its origin country doesn't hold much of the world anymore.

Can anyone think of any more natively English speaking countries?
Britain
Ireland
Canada
The U.S.
Australia
New Zealand

[Athens]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

I think tragic only because it might make it harder on us old farts (by then) to keep up. The English language may be part of our history, but diversity is really our heritage and hopefully our aim. America's current days of economic dominance will be ending soon as the next wave of modernization sweeps the globe and so our brand of English may fall behind in this country. English may be spoken throughout the world, but its origin country doesn't hold much of the world anymore.

Can anyone think of any more natively English speaking countries?
Britain
Ireland
Canada
The U.S.
Australia
New Zealand

Every dutch man I ever spoke to speaks english, every east indian ive meet speaks english, every Chinaman Ive meet speaks english, the people on my MSN list are from Russia, Netherlands, Japan, India, Brazil they all speak english. Every guest from France, Germany and so forth speak enough english to understand room number, the bill, and directions. Why are Mexicans unable to learn this?

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by Athens

Every dutch man I ever spoke to speaks english, every east indian ive meet speaks english, every Chinaman Ive meet speaks english, the people on my MSN list are from Russia, Netherlands, Japan, India, Brazil they all speak english. Every guest from France, Germany and so forth speak enough english to understand room number, the bill, and directions. Why are Mexicans unable to learn this?

My point was that of all the natively-English-speaking countries in the world, far more nations speak it as a second language. Why is this burden placed on other nations? Why don't we learn it for others too. Many Americans who have to deal with hispanics on a regular basis just learn Spanish. It's not hard. Just spend enough time around it and you just pick it up. Even attempting someone's native tongue shows respect so I think mutual respect would be a good thing to aim for, no?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by UNTiMac

My point was that of all the natively-English-speaking countries in the world, far more nations speak it as a second language. Why is this burden placed on other nations? Why don't we learn it for others too. Many Americans who have to deal with hispanics on a regular basis just learn Spanish. It's not hard. Just spend enough time around it and you just pick it up. Even attempting someone's native tongue shows respect so I think mutual respect would be a good thing to aim for, no?

And how is that any different from this

Many Hispanics who have to deal with Americans on a regular basis just learn English. It's not hard. Just spend enough time around it and you just pick it up. Even attempting someone's native tongue shows respect so I think mutual respect would be a good thing to aim for, no?

[TETENAL]

It's not different.

Which languages do you speak?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

It's not different.

Which languages do you speak?

English, why?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Athens

English, why?

Because you complain about people who speak only one language and speak only one language yourself. That's odd.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Because you complain about people who speak only one language and speak only one language yourself. That's odd.

My compaint is not about people who speak one language, I don't understand how people cant pick up the basics of the language of the place they live and have citizenship in. If I moved to Mexico, it wouldn't take me long to pick up enough Spanish so I could function, same goes if I moved to Quebec (Montreal Excluded) I would have to pick up enough French to get by. Are you telling me that every one speaks Spanish in the United States and you dont have to know enligsh to be functional, that Spanish is the offical language? I think its odd people cant speak the offical language, even the basics like ONE, TWO, THREE, HI, BYE of the place they call home. Don't you?

[dreilly1]

Originally Posted by Athens

I think its odd people cant speak the offical language, even the basics like ONE, TWO, THREE, HI, BYE of the place they call home. Don't you?

There is no official language in the U.S.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by dreilly1

There is no official language in the U.S.

My thought exactly

When I took my (computerized) theoretical test to get my learner's permit, there was a Chinese guy taking his (non-computerized) test with a relative (or friend) as a translator

[UNTeMac]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Because you complain about people who speak only one language and speak only one language yourself. That's odd.

He couldn't have made my point any better.

[osxisfun]

>There is no official language in the U.S

Don't worry, the wingnuts will tell the voters they want a constitutional amendment making it so just in time for the 2006 elections...

'cause hating gays is SOOOO 2004...

[loki74]

WTF? What does gays have anything to do with this... ?

Even if its not "official," English was the original.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by loki74

WTF? What does gays have anything to do with this... ?

Even if its not "official," English was the original.

Original? Where? Certainly not in California. Or New Mexico, Arizona, Louisiana, Florida, Alaska, &c. Just because the English ended up being the dominant country in colonial America doesn't mean they were the only ones.

And even if you were right, what difference would it make?

[loki74]

um... I am right... all those states became part of america, whose original (ok, original primary...)language would be English.

The difference? Well... you become part of a country, you adapt to the culture of that country. Dont go trying to change it. For citizens, its a matter of respect. For visitors, its a matter of courtesy.

I mean, yeah, we Americans really ought to be more multi-lingual. But we shouldnt forget our history. (and what you say about the southweest is true, there is a lot of hispanic influence here. But its still America.)

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by loki74

um... I am right... all those states became part of america, whose original (ok, original primary...)language would be English.

The difference? Well... you become part of a country, you adapt to the culture of that country. Dont go trying to change it. For citizens, its a matter of respect. For visitors, its a matter of courtesy.

I mean, yeah, we Americans really ought to be more multi-lingual. But we shouldnt forget our history. (and what you say about the southweest is true, there is a lot of hispanic influence here. But its still America.)

We don't even speak the same type of english that was spoken back in the day. I really don't see how modern english has anymore privilege over any other language.

Sure, you might be at a disadvantage living here only speaking another language, but its your choice not to learn english. My grandparents came over in the 20s from italy. My grandfather owned a butcher shop in north end of Boston with his brothers. He never learned english, even after he moved into the suburbs when he retired. He never needed to learn english.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by loki74

um... I am right... all those states became part of america, whose original (ok, original primary...)language would be English.

The difference? Well... you become part of a country, you adapt to the culture of that country. Dont go trying to change it. For citizens, its a matter of respect. For visitors, its a matter of courtesy.

I mean, yeah, we Americans really ought to be more multi-lingual. But we shouldnt forget our history. (and what you say about the southweest is true, there is a lot of hispanic influence here. But its still America.)

Um... California was 'originally' part of Mexico along with most of the southwest. We bought Louisiana from the French and Alaska from the Russians. These were all places that had distinct cultures and their own languages well after the US came into existence. Do they not have as much right to their own original languages as those living in former English colonies?

And the influx of spanish-speaking people to the US is hardly a simple matter of someone becoming part of a country. It's the racial and linguistic balance of the entire country shifting. When latinos are the majority throughout the entire country instead of just California and the majority of people in the country speak Spanish at home, what will be the relevance of claiming English was the 'original' language?

History's great and all, and you're right that we shouldn't forget it. But we also shouldn't be ruled by it. The past is the past, and our present situation is nothing like it. Although it's worth mentioning that one part of our history was the decision to not have an official language.

[Weyland-Yutani]

You know, considering where I live, I have met a lot of Californians. I have managed to understand exactly none of them. They are all one card short of a deck if you get my meaning.

Maybe I've just met the weird ones, I don't know, so don't take this personally. It's just an observation.

cheers

W-Y

[ghporter]

1) There is NO official language in the U.S. And there is no grassroots move afoot to establish one, either. No matter what you might think, the actual logistics of establishing an official language are staggering, and that one fact has scuttled three bills that I can recall.

2) English is the de facto standard language of the U.S., and it has all but become the lengua franca of the world, displacing Latin and French as the tongue in which commerce and science are conducted.

3) As I posted earlier, while I can only claim to "speak" English fluently, I can get the basics done in Spanish and probably German, and with a little refresher I can get by in French and Italian as well. It is not asking too much for someone to speak "just enough" to get along in a place.

4) The "official language" Athens was referring to is English, one of two official languages in Canada, right beside Canadian French (which is nowhere near as similar to French French as American English is to British English-and don't even start thinking abour how Louisiana French fits in with the other two!). In Vancouver, English IS an OFFICIAL LANGUAGE. When I visit a place whose official language is something I don't speak fluently, I at least learn some phrases so that I can at least seem to be trying to cooperate.

The thing Athens is really complaining about is something my wife (especially) and I have noticed a lot: North American Spanish speakers expecting others who do not speak Spanish to accomodate them wherever they are. My wife works in a hospital nursery, and is is appalling how many U.S. born people come in and EXPECT HER to speak Spanish, and get downright angry when she isn't fluent. In the U.S. In a hospital. While she's taking care of their very sick baby. (A coworker of hers with the last name of O'Brien has a MA in Spanish and the angry folks just calm RIGHT down when she lays into them-because these folks do NOT speak Academy Spanish, not even close!)

To me, the people who live in the States and want to get along outside their own neighborhoods should be able to converse in the common tongue of the nation. That's English. I did not establish it as such, and I have had the benefit of learning English from infancy (though I've paid a bit more attention to using it properly than most people I've met). And I would love to be able to use my family's "historical language" every day. But which one is it? Irish Gaelic? Scotts Gaelic? Welsh? German? French? Cherokee? Others I don't know about? A nation of immigrants NEEDS a common language for common intercourse.

[nforcer]

I really hate the lack of English in CA and the related problem with illegal immigrants. Printing all public notices in English and in Spanish. Wasting tax money to hire translators. Special classes in schools for Spanish-only speakers. Spanish-only sections of newspapers. Spanish-only radio stations. Spanish-only TV stations. Spanish-only special benefits and breaks. This government is so screwed up. It's gone beyond being considerate of non-english speakers and illegals and is now about supporting them. The official number of illegals in this state is understated, and I don't know one of them that knows English or is making an attempt to learn English. These people have no incentive to change. There is no threat of deportation, it's just "come on in, the border is open" and that's what happens. Then they expect to be supported for their decisions.

The only thing more annoying than the fact that there are so many people who speak only Spanish and refuse to learn English is the rate at which that mentality is spreading. The first things those types do is have children here so they can have reason for staying. And it's never just one child. The next thing they do is bring over what family and friends they care about from "the land" and help set them up similarly. The children will learn Spanish first and then English in school, but because of their familiarity with Spanish and their parents' situation they will never see a problem with it or think anything is wrong. Not before long you have Spanish-only speaking sections of city where the same types of people live, and they will complain more needs to be done for them and they are being treated unfairly and blah blah blah. Then some idiot politician, likely a democrat, but it could also be an idiot republican president of something, will propose giving them drivers licenses or legalizing them. And then the problem continues to grow.

If I move to another country that does not speak my language, I am going to learn their language, not make them change for me. Even if I sneak into another country illegally, I see the importance of communication. The situation here is a slap in the face to everyone who entered this country legally and learned the language. Learn it or leave. The people who have learned it are already much better off and more self-sufficient than those who have not.

[loki74]

nforcer:

[nonhuman]

Nina

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by nforcer

Spanish-only special benefits and breaks.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally Posted by nforcer

I really hate the lack of English in CA and the related problem with illegal immigrants. Printing all public notices in English and in Spanish. Wasting tax money to hire translators. Special classes in schools for Spanish-only speakers. Spanish-only sections of newspapers. Spanish-only radio stations. Spanish-only TV stations. Spanish-only special benefits and breaks. This government is so screwed up. It's gone beyond being considerate of non-english speakers and illegals and is now about supporting them. The official number of illegals in this state is understated, and I don't know one of them that knows English or is making an attempt to learn English. These people have no incentive to change. There is no threat of deportation, it's just "come on in, the border is open" and that's what happens. Then they expect to be supported for their decisions.

The only thing more annoying than the fact that there are so many people who speak only Spanish and refuse to learn English is the rate at which that mentality is spreading. The first things those types do is have children here so they can have reason for staying. And it's never just one child. The next thing they do is bring over what family and friends they care about from "the land" and help set them up similarly. The children will learn Spanish first and then English in school, but because of their familiarity with Spanish and their parents' situation they will never see a problem with it or think anything is wrong. Not before long you have Spanish-only speaking sections of city where the same types of people live, and they will complain more needs to be done for them and they are being treated unfairly and blah blah blah. Then some idiot politician, likely a democrat, but it could also be an idiot republican president of something, will propose giving them drivers licenses or legalizing them. And then the problem continues to grow.

If I move to another country that does not speak my language, I am going to learn their language, not make them change for me. Even if I sneak into another country illegally, I see the importance of communication. The situation here is a slap in the face to everyone who entered this country legally and learned the language. Learn it or leave. The people who have learned it are already much better off and more self-sufficient than those who have not.

Quite a ridiculous thing, isn't it. Let's say I move to…well…Sweden. The minute I get there I'm at least going to pick up a phrase book. You have the know the important words: 'Shitter' and 'Beer'. I should learn the language. It make it easier for me and it makes it easier for everyone I talk to. Then again, Sweden speak alot of English. Not the best example, but you get my point.

So why is it that when Pablo comes across the border, he thinks 'Eh, I can just speak Spanish only.' My only answer is that he think he can 'get away with it.' And it's not so hard to see why. English/Spanish everything. U-Scan at Wal*Mart is in Spanish, too. Gov't papers are in Spanish, too. Hell, the box of Trix and can of Pringles are in Spanish! It's a bloody cycle! Company X puts out a product in Spanish and English (same box in this example) because a) he will sell product in South and Central America or b) he wants to be 'tolerant.' Spanish-Speker Y comes to the country and sees almost everything essential is in Spanish. And doesn't learn English.

1. Amend the 14th Amendment. It should say 'All children born in the United States & Territories to legal mothers are legal citizens.' Currently, you could pop one out in a car, while comiting a felony without legal status and still have that kid a legal citizen. That's ********.

2. No welfare. It's bad enough when people leech off of others' money. Even worse when they don't pay taxes and refuse to assimilate. While I'd like to end all welfare, the best step is to first end it to all who can't show proof of legal citizenship. If ya can't…tough ****.

3. Legal documents in 40 languages. …Why?

[Athens]

nforcer:

[Athens]

just think in 5 more years you might need a Spanish speaking forum on MacNN

[ghporter]

The Constitution does NOT need a change. What needs changing is the press' whiney attitude about deporting illegal parents who come to the States JUST TO HAVE THEIR KID HERE. It's a back door route to a green card. My wife used to see it a lot at her previous job in the newborn nursery of the "county hospital" here in San Antonio. It's been a "tradition" for a lot of families from WAY south of the border to come to SA to have their kids so the kids are Americans. The kids aren't a big problem, and when the families go home, they take them along. But there are some who come here, have the kid, and THEN apply for assistance. These folks need a nice bus ticket to somewhere near the Yucatan-let 'em WALK home from there.

<diversion>I have no problem with people who want to work so badly that they're willing to put up with the sh*t that contractors, maid services, food vendors, etc. give them. I'm pretty sure many/most of the framing guys that put my house together a few years back would have been worried about "la migra" showing up. I'll also point out that the framers I talked to tried to speak English with me, and between my minimal Spanish and their minimal English, we got along just fine. I really don't think this kind of hard working folks are a problem. It is the people who come here to soak up taxpayer-funded benefits without contributing anything that bug me.

"Guest worker" status sounds great, but making it work would be a royal pain. See how many hours a person worked, and in what conditions, and base how "legal" they are on how much crap they've put up with as compared to their productivity.</diversion>

The "high class Mexican" families here in SA that want to "preserve their heritage" don't seem to get the point that their heritage is one of immigration not "Mexicanness." Refusing to speak English to someone who you don't know speaks Spanish is just downright RUDE. Many of my classmates are from Mexican-American families, and they seem to agree with me; these "heritage preservers" are just rude nuveau riche morons.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Athens

just think in 5 more years you might need a Spanish speaking forum on MacNN

¿Que?

It's worth noting that Spanish isn't the only language that this is done with. Important papers in the Bay Area (like voting handbooks) are all in Chinese as well. There are even parts of Oakland where the street signs are in Chinese.

Yet no one's complaining about that. It's ok to have Chinese alongside English, just not the inferior Spanish spoken by those brown people south of the border I guess.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by nonhuman

¿Que?

It's worth noting that Spanish isn't the only language that this is done with. Important papers in the Bay Area (like voting handbooks) are all in Chinese as well. There are even parts of Oakland where the street signs are in Chinese.

Yet no one's complaining about that. It's ok to have Chinese alongside English, just not the inferior Spanish spoken by those brown people south of the border I guess.

I dont have any complaints with Spanish papers books and signs, as long as the signs are in english as well. Canada most federal signs and all labels are in English and French. I would have a problem if signs where Spanish or in my case up here French only.

The issue is why Spanish people seem to be the only ones in the world unable to learn the most basic english to be able to function with non spanish people.