[jamesa]

Goddammit Apple piss me off sometimes.

I've been waiting to get a decent 12" powerbook since they came out.

When I say 12'' powerbook, I'm not talking about one of the glorified iBooks in a metal case, but actually a 12" powerbook. One with a backlit keyboard (even as an option). One with the same graphics card as the other Powerbooks. One with Firewire 800. One with gigabit ethernet.

Instead, we keep on getting re-cased iBooks at a huge markup. I'm getting incredibly sick of waiting!

-- james

[sbdaigo]

Watch your language - for some of us using God�s name like this is highly offensive and we are here to discuss Macs - so please be careful.

By the way, I have a revb - and I have to say, it has held up to my tiBook in every way except the brightness of the screen.

[Troll]

Originally posted by sbdaigo:
By the way, I have a revb - and I have to say, it has held up to my tiBook in every way except the brightness of the screen.

Watch your language - for some of us implying that light is better than dark is highly offensive - so please be careful.

You have 12 posts to your name and you're already going around telling people to "be careful" and "watch their language!" My God*, how puritan. If you are offended that easily then the Internet is no place for you. Can I recommend some correction fluid (white out) for your next visit to MacNN? Apply it to the relevant part of the screen every time something offends you. Within a few hours, you'll find that you are no longer offended by anything you see.

*I'm taking my own God's name in vain here, not yours, so I trust you aren't offended.

[Troll]

As for the original post, I think that one of the issues is with fitting all of the features into that small space and still keeping it cool. I had a look at 12 inch PC notebooks this weekend and they are all severely crippled, even the high end ones. I think that is less a marketing strategy than it is a design restriction.

[The Placid Casual]

My grandmother always joked that she wanted a nice house, with a garden, at the sea side, on a beach, with no sand, in the middle of a major city, with parking, while maintaining some peace and quiet...

What I mean to say is, there is no perfect machine for everybody. Someone will find fault.

You can't have a 12" machine with all the spec of a 17" machine. Space and design restrictions won't allow it.

Jamesa, you may be waiting a long time.

[fisherKing]

i gotta say, i agree. some of us want small, light...but also backlit keyboards, better specs.

if you compare specs across the board, the apple philosophy IS bigger is better.

would be great to see a "pro" 12...

[RooneyX]

Most of us hardly ever use the backlit keyboards on the bigger models anyway. I never have. But yes, the 12 inch should have the same graphics and FW800.

But think about this. The new 12 has received a 330Mhz increase compared to a 167Mhz increase for the 17. In terms of performance the gap between the two has shrunk. The 867Mhz 12s were sluggish and hot.

[dwood]

in regards to the backlit keyboard..... where exactly would they put the light sensors? There really isnt any play to put them.

Aside from that im happy they moved to 64mb vram.

[The Placid Casual]

So the 12" doesn't have backlit keyboard? That hardly makes it hamstrung... it is not like it a major feature that effects how the machine works. It is a nice extra but nothing more. Unless you work in the dark for 90% of the time.

Having a Rage 128 in there, that would be hamstringing!

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by fisherKing:
i gotta say, i agree. some of us want small, light...but also backlit keyboards, better specs.

What would you use a backlit keyboard on a 12" for? So you can be the cool guy in town?

but seriously I'd assume if typing in the dark or something, but if you can't see the keyboard on the 12" well enough from the light of the screen in dark/dim conditions, you might want to go see an eye doctor. You probably have bigger things to worry about than having a backlit keyboard.

[sbdaigo]

Hey Troll,

Since when does the amount of posts make someone special around here? I may not post a lot, but I read the forum a lot. I tried to be honest and to many it does matter. I did not �judge� the person, just made a comment. So, let�s try to keep the name slinging and lableing out until you know the person - and even then it isn�t very cool.

[iomatic]

Back to the subject...

If it doesn't suit your needs, don't buy it. On top of that don't come trolling on the boards; come back with something constructive and go here and voice your opinions:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/powerbook.html

If you think the PowerBook is a repackaged iBook, whoa Nelly, go friggin' design one for yourself.

...


sbdaigo, it's the 21st century, man; didn't you learn anything about Mesopotamia and Africa, agricultural societies and the birth of (man-made) religions?

MODS, LOCK THIS THREAD!

[Troll]

Originally posted by sbdaigo:
Hey Troll,

Since when does the amount of posts make someone special around here? I may not post a lot, but I read the forum a lot. I tried to be honest and to many it does matter. I did not �judge� the person, just made a comment. So, let�s try to keep the name slinging and lableing out until you know the person - and even then it isn�t very cool.

I have observed that people who have lots of posts think they somehow become entitled to enforce rules around here. I was merely making an observation that in your case you resorted to trying to censor people despite not having many posts. I wasn't implying that number of posts makes you special - quite the contrary.

Virtually any post is offensive to someone. Heck, you used the word "God" which some Jews find offensive (it should have been G-d); you used it without qualifying it with an "if he wills it," as some religions would require. This is a secular website AFAIK and for good reason because accomodating all of you religious types would be impossible.

The rules of the forum are enforced by the *moderators*. You aren't a moderator yet. If you have a problem with a post, report the person to the mods don't patronise the poster by moralising and publically rebuking them. I respect your private beliefs but grandstanding your morality/religion is just not cool.

And here I am doing precisely what I accused you of. Enough of this.

[freakboy2]

12 inch powerbook can't have faster proc and other stuff b/c its too small, heat restrictions and the like.

also it has a smaller battery, so to stay on even battery life it needs to use less power.

good luck getting the pb you want. maybe next year.



just get one of the new ones. they're pretty nice.

[happyware]

The problem is that the 12" powerbook if it had all the features of the 15" or 17" would be much more expensive.

The only thing it is missing is the lighted keyboard which is way overrated. The thing in the past that it was missing before Rev B was cache and DVI. rev B solved both these things.


It's basically the missing ibook 1.25Ghz 12" that is missing in the configuration with DVI output and a few other goodies.

It's a great laptop for the price performance ratio.

[gator]

As far as the video goes, I'm not sure what kind of power requirements the FX5200 has vs. the MR9700. I'd imagine that power/size constraints would prevent the MR9700 from getting into the 12" PB, but I can't find any information on eitehr of those items.

I'm not convinced that one could get the MR9700 in a 12" notebook... heck over on the PC side I don't think any 12" notebook even has anything like a 64MB FX5200.

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by jamesa:
Goddammit Apple piss me off sometimes.

I've been waiting to get a decent 12" powerbook since they came out.

When I say 12'' powerbook, I'm not talking about one of the glorified iBooks in a metal case, but actually a 12" powerbook. One with a backlit keyboard (even as an option). One with the same graphics card as the other Powerbooks. One with Firewire 800. One with gigabit ethernet.

Instead, we keep on getting re-cased iBooks at a huge markup. I'm getting incredibly sick of waiting!

In some cases (like the kb), it's marketing. As for FW 800, I think it's because only one FW port comes on the machine (see pic). Until 800 is in 90% of FW products, sers would rather have a 400 port so they don't need to drag around an adapter. There's just not enough room for a second FW port. It could also be that Apple is waiting for when they have to completely redo the logic board for the PB G5.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by JHromadka:
In some cases (like the kb), it's marketing. As for FW 800, I think it's because only one FW port comes on the machine (see pic). Until 800 is in 90% of FW products, sers would rather have a 400 port so they don't need to drag around an adapter. There's just not enough room for a second FW port. It could also be that Apple is waiting for when they have to completely redo the logic board for the PB G5.

What share of devices are FW800 versus 400?

FW800 sounds great in theory but does anyone use it? If so post and share your thoughts?

[RooneyX]

Originally posted by gator:
As far as the video goes, I'm not sure what kind of power requirements the FX5200 has vs. the MR9700. I'd imagine that power/size constraints would prevent the MR9700 from getting into the 12" PB, but I can't find any information on eitehr of those items.

I'm not convinced that one could get the MR9700 in a 12" notebook... heck over on the PC side I don't think any 12" notebook even has anything like a 64MB FX5200.

That's right. For the first time Apple's notebooks have caught up and surpassed the graphics chipsets in PC notebooks. Even Alienware and Dell are still offering the 9600 (the Pro version. I don't know how much faster it is over the standard 9600).

[macintologist]

Originally posted by Troll:
Watch your language - for some of us implying that light is better than dark is highly offensive - so please be careful.

You have 12 posts to your name and you're already going around telling people to "be careful" and "watch their language!" My God*, how puritan. If you are offended that easily then the Internet is no place for you. Can I recommend some correction fluid (white out) for your next visit to MacNN? Apply it to the relevant part of the screen every time something offends you. Within a few hours, you'll find that you are no longer offended by anything you see.

*I'm taking my own God's name in vain here, not yours, so I trust you aren't offended.

He registered in Oct 2001 you idiot. Post count means nothing. Someone could have 2000 posts built up over 3 years but most of the those posts could have just been "+1" and "in before the lock" and other meaningless things. Look at Zimphire. He was averaging 26 posts a day, he had more than 10000, but he got banned. High post count doesn't give you any respect IMO, it's what you say.

Don't judge by post count.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by macintologist:
He registered in Oct 2001 you idiot. Post count means nothing. Someone could have 2000 posts built up over 3 years but most of the those posts could have just been "+1" and "in before the lock" and other meaningless things. Look at Zimphire. He was averaging 26 posts a day, he had more than 10000, but he got banned. High post count doesn't give you any respect IMO, it's what you say.

Don't judge by post count.

His point still stands.

[Troll]

Originally posted by macintologist:
He registered in Oct 2001 you idiot.

Hey, at least this idiot reads all the posts in the thread before he replies. Like this one:

Originally posted by Troll:
I have observed that people who have lots of posts think they somehow become entitled to enforce rules around here. I was merely making an observation that in your case you resorted to trying to censor people despite not having many posts. I wasn't implying that number of posts makes you special - quite the contrary.

[Commodus]

Okay, could we try to keep this thread on topic?

My observation is that there's always a contingent who makes it their mission - nay, duty - to complain to Apple that their exact needs in a computer need to be met the way they'd like them to be met, no matter how unreasonable.

The 12" PowerBook is perhaps the best example. DVI was a reasonable request, simply because we knew Apple could design a port that would fit on the case as they had the VGA adapter. But for some reason there's a legion of people who won't quit until every exposed surface of the PowerBook has a port on it, or until it's feature-for-feature a match to even the 17" PowerBook. I've actually heard people demand a PC Card slot!

It's called heat and space, people. The sides are already crowded with ports, and there's not much room inside. I don't know the exact thermals of a Mobility Radeon 9700, but something tells me that they're higher than that of an FX 5200 Go. And it's already been discussed as to why FW800 isn't going to show up on a 12" model for awhile yet.

Sometimes you just have to accept that cost or practicality considerations may reduce the feature set.

[jamesa]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
My grandmother always joked that she wanted a nice house, with a garden, at the sea side, on a beach, with no sand, in the middle of a major city, with parking, while maintaining some peace and quiet...

What I mean to say is, there is no perfect machine for everybody. Someone will find fault.

You can't have a 12" machine with all the spec of a 17" machine. Space and design restrictions won't allow it.

Jamesa, you may be waiting a long time.

At Apple's present rate, then yes, I might be. I can't really see much of an advantage of going for a 12" PB over a 12" ibook, especially with the price differential.

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
So the 12" doesn't have backlit keyboard? That hardly makes it hamstrung... it is not like it a major feature that effects how the machine works. It is a nice extra but nothing more. Unless you work in the dark for 90% of the time.

It by itself is not making it hamstrung. But I know that keyboard can fit - it's just the same reason Apple don't offer it on the combo drive 15"; they're doing it for marketing reasons.

What's crazy is that the it should be there (along with a heap of other stuff) to differentiate the powerbook from the ibook! 300mhz alone isn't going to cut it!

Originally posted by madmacgames:
What would you use a backlit keyboard on a 12" for? So you can be the cool guy in town?

but seriously I'd assume if typing in the dark or something, but if you can't see the keyboard on the 12" well enough from the light of the screen in dark/dim conditions, you might want to go see an eye doctor. You probably have bigger things to worry about than having a backlit keyboard.

Absolutely fair comment. But I ask why have the option on the big powerbooks, and not the little ones? If it's a useless feature, why not scrap it altogether and save money?

Originally posted by iomatic:
Back to the subject...

If it doesn't suit your needs, don't buy it. On top of that don't come trolling on the boards; come back with something constructive and go here and voice your opinions:

I won't buy it, and I'm not trolling. Or is discussing anything you're not in agreement with "trolling", is it?

I think you'll find I'm not the only one here that shares the opinion I outlined above.

Originally posted by freakboy2:
12 inch powerbook can't have faster proc and other stuff b/c its too small, heat restrictions and the like.

also it has a smaller battery, so to stay on even battery life it needs to use less power.

If you noticed I never once mentioned the processor speed. I accept that in a smaller enclosure heat will beome an issue.

I just want feature parity. That's all. Just fixing the graphics card would have probably been enough for me to bite at this model.

Originally posted by happyware:
The problem is that the 12" powerbook if it had all the features of the 15" or 17" would be much more expensive.

You're looking at it the wrong way! What it is, is a 12" iBook - yet what features make it worth all the extra $$$? The 15" and 17" top of the line are effectively the same machine, and yet still there is a significant price gap! They can manage the same with the 12".

Originally posted by gator:
As far as the video goes, I'm not sure what kind of power requirements the FX5200 has vs. the MR9700. I'd imagine that power/size constraints would prevent the MR9700 from getting into the 12" PB, but I can't find any information on eitehr of those items.

I'm not convinced that one could get the MR9700 in a 12" notebook... heck over on the PC side I don't think any 12" notebook even has anything like a 64MB FX5200.

It's not power. The new ones have special power saving features - they can adjust their clock speed on the fly. They actually use less power than the predecessors overall because of this.

I doubt it's size, because most of these graphics cards are pin-compatible.

Originally posted by Commodus:
Okay, could we try to keep this thread on topic?

My observation is that there's always a contingent who makes it their mission - nay, duty - to complain to Apple that their exact needs in a computer need to be met the way they'd like them to be met, no matter how unreasonable.

... and my observation is that there's always a contingent who makes it their mission - nay, duty - to apologise for Apple whenever someone makes some constructive criticism. Because that's exactly what you're doing! What I'm asking is not unreasonable, nor physically infeasible - simply use the same graphics card as the other powerbooks! Instead, Apple changes the case, up the processor a bit (not a lot) then gouges their customers!

Yes the DVI was a reasonable request, but so too is the same graphics card. The gigabit ethernet is unlikely to take up significantly more space (though I'm willing to stand corrected on this). There's no reason they can't put the backlit keyboard in.

Originally posted by Commodus:

It's called heat and space, people. The sides are already crowded with ports, and there's not much room inside. I don't know the exact thermals of a Mobility Radeon 9700, but something tells me that they're higher than that of an FX 5200 Go. And it's already been discussed as to why FW800 isn't going to show up on a 12" model for awhile yet.

There have been some significant advances in the mobile graphics chip technologies that allow chips to scale, thus using a lot less power and putting out a lot less heat.

I'm willing to bet that Apple traded customer needs for keeping a vendor happy, in installing a graphics card that's not as good.

Sometimes you just have to accept that cost or practicality considerations may reduce the feature set.

I'll be the first to do that; i've not once complained about clock speed. The rest is inexcusable though.

-- james

[rag on a muffin]

well, for me upgrading to the pbg4 from an ibook g4 was because i thought that apple put in more effort to the powerbooks than the ibooks. i have a bit of proof that show that too. MANY defective ibooks i got.

PS i signed the petition for half-life 2 mac.

[KidKit]

My $0.02 ... in this rather impassioned thread.

I agree that "feature parity" is something that seems rather lacking in the smallest member of the Powerbook series. I would argue that it is probably a mixture of both technical issues and niche/market segmentation within the PB series that is keeping some of features jamesa mentioned from appearing in the 12". And unfortunately for jamesa, for both technical as well and market issues, Apple is probably not going to resolve them in the near future.

However, I disagree in polarising to an extreme and claiming that the 12" powerbook is simply a recased 12" iBook. I think the niche and market segmentation between the 12" iBook and PowerBook is quite distinct. This has been discussed many times on this forum by posts asking for advice on whether to get the 12" Powerbook over the iBook.

I guess the issue is what you the enduser expects from the 12" powerbook, and what you are going to do about not getting what you want. I personally think that when I opted for my 12", I came to that with already an expectation that its not going to match some of the features on the bigger PBs. Whether Apple "can do it" aside - its basically the old features-vs-size conundrum, Leatherman juice vs Leatherman wave, Hummer vs Wrangler, iPod vs mini, take your pick of analogy

[hldan]

I would like to say something about this idea that the reason Apple won't make a high end 12" Powerbook with a high speed processor is because of heat. That's ridiculous!!
The first 12" Aluminum Powerbook was 867Mhz and it was dubbed "Firebook" because of overheating. Now the latest is the same as Rev B17" which is 1.33Ghz. I agree about the fact that even the smallest machine could have all the features of the larger ones and it should but Apple, like other companies has to have a flagship model and they chose the 17" @ 1.5Ghz.

The Sony Vaio 10.6" even has a PC card slot and an optical drive and a built-in camera and a DVD burner.....but.....it's priced at $2999.99 and it's only a 1Ghz Centrino so size isn't the reason for the lack of features. Apple can easily put in all the extras but it would cost a lot more especially since it's aluminum and not Sony's cheap plastic.
Also, sorry to be rude but I think some of the people that find the backlit keyboard overrated or a waste are pretty ignorant about it.
It's a great feature. You have to use it to appreciate it. Not everyone in the world is a "typist".
When I had my old iBook I kept leaning the screen downward to to furnish light for the keyboard to find certain keys that don't involve everyday typing.
Apple always puts in "usuable" features that PC manufacturers won't.
PC manufacturers spend too much time installing the fastest processor that current apps can't take advantage of and that's a waste of consumer's money.
Be happy Apple "thinks different".

[Simon]

Gigabit Ethernet - should be in the 12"; this is ridculious.

Faster CPU - if possible of course it should be available. Small doesn't equal slow. Seeing that they went from 867->1.0->1.33 however doesn't necessarily mean that heat is a non-issue, since they also used three G4 revisions to make the climb.

Faster GPU - I don't really know how much heat is an issue here. I am guessing that a faster CPU would be a greater heat concern than dropping the 5200 for a 9700. It would really be nice to hear some hard facts from a GPU manufacturer on this heat issue.

FW800 - On the 12" it's either single FW400 or single FW800 with a converter dongle. I'd take the 800 with the dongle just for flexibility sake, but I can already see the bitching about having to use a dongle to use most FW devices, since they are still mostly FW400.

Backlit keybaord - YAWN! To me nothing more than a geek show-off toy. I couldn't care less about it.

[Graymalkin]

While I can understand not everyone is super happy with the new 12" Powerbooks, I think they're pretty impressive. In the year since I bought my 12" they're 463MHz faster with twice the L2 cache, have twice the video RAM along with a much better GPU, and have 20GB more disk space. They also come with AP Extreme built in and costs less than mine did.

I think the 12" Powerbooks are meant to fill the "executive" role the Cube was intended for. An "executive" portable needs a the professional look and a bit more umph than a consumer system but also doesn't need the workstation replacement features of a full on pro system. The 15" and 17" Powerbooks are meant to replace workstations by and large, the 12" is meant to be the highly portable taskmaster. For that role I don't think they're underpowered or overpriced.

[Maflynn]

Unless I missed something, I don't thing anybody mentioned market segmentation.

Who is going to buy this machine and how much are they willing to spend on a 12" laptop.

I believe there had to be sacrifices made due to physical contraints but also for price constraints.

A faster video card would generate more heat then the small enclosure could dissapate but also cost apple more to add (how much more I have no idea) but that increase in cost would have been passed on to the consumer. Apple needed to position this product in such a way that it would not cannibalize their other models.


The stock high-end of the 12" is only 200 dollars cheaper then the low-end 15" stock PB. You need to give the consumers more reasons to shell out the extra 200 for the 15"pb (other then screen size).

All in all I wouldn't say the 12" is not hamstrung, its just not a good fit for the OP, but that doesn't mean its not a good fit for everyone.

Regards
Mike

[WizOSX]

Originally posted by jamesa
At Apple's present rate, then yes, I might be. I can't really see much of an advantage of going for a 12" PB over a 12" ibook, especially with the price differential.

Look at it this way:

The price difference between the two combodrive models is $400 (at ed prices).

Suppose Apple didn't sell the 12" PB but, instead, offered an upgraded combo 12" iBook with the following specs: double the hard drive, double the VRAM, extra 1/3 clock speed and slightly faster system bus as the current base iBook. I think many people would feel that was very good value for $400.

But throw in Airport, built in external monitor support and the aluminum case, and I think that you get a lot for the $400.

I think the current 12" PB is priced very well relative to the iBook. You're right, however, Apple should offer an upgraded "pro" 12" but as one of my friends, an ex-Mac junkie who gave up on Macs about 7 years ago says "Apple always pulls its punches." The idea always is to force buyers in certain directions.

[x user]

Here is the list of iBooks/PB's I've had:

Pb150
Duo230
Duo2300c

iBook366 (DV model)
iBook 500
iBook 800 (DVD/CDRW)

PB G4 Rev. B 12"

From all those I can easily say that the PB12" is not only the nicest (duh), but probably the best designed short of perhaps the Duo 2300c. But that is almost Apples/Oranges since back when the Duo was around people didn't expect it to have an internal optical drive/video chipset.

The 12" is for people who are willing to trade off the features of the 15" or 17" for shear portablity, like the duo of yesteryear. The screen does leave a lot to be desired, but not in resolution, just in brightness and contrast.

The iBooks on the other hand, are definitly designed with a student type application in mind, just look at the difference in trackpad design.

[dennis88]

You just CAN'T put a ati mobility 9700 or 9600 in a 12" notebook!
The whole notebook would heat up like crazy, and damage parts in it, it's just not possible. Yet.

I have a dell inspiron 8600 with the ati 9600 pro turbo, and even this fat brick heats up a lot!
When using a program designed for the notebook, it shows that the gpu (ati 9600 pro turbo) goes up as much as 100 Celsius while playing intense games!
Imagine this card in a 12" powerbook then!
Not just that, but they would have to clock the gpu WAY down to keep it cool, and it would be easily beaten by the fx5200go at those clocks.

The ati mobility 9700 makes even more heat, BUT it all depends on the clock settings.
The clock settings on the mobility 9700 in the powerbook 15" and 17" should be much lower than the clock settings on the mobilty 9700 in for example the dell xps, or inspiron 9100.
So one notebook with the mobility 9700 doesn't have to give the same game power as another notebook with the mobility 9700, because of different clocks, remember that.

The powerbook 15"'s mobility card is probby clocked at about 400/200 and the Dell xps at 450/270.
And if the mobility 9700 was going in a 12" pb, it would be like 150/70....

Another thing is that the 12" powerbook, is the 12" notebook with the best gpu so far.
almost every 12" notebook pc have integrated gpu, which sucks hard.

You shouldn't complain...At all.
If you don't like it, then don't buy it, it's that simple.

[dennis88]

One more thing, who knows if the fx5200go in the Rev C 12" is clocked higher then the fx5200go in the Rev B.
I wouldn't be suprised if it is clocked higher, something that will give better performance.

[dividend]

I thought the new updates were pretty good. I am still happy with my 1.25 ghz alu and don't think i missed that much - 250 mhz more is like 10 s faster for importing a cd to iTunes. Not a big deal for me. But I have two questions about the 12' PB:

are the two USB-ports run by a single usb-chip or by two? If you put in a USB 1.1 mouse in one of them, does this mean that the other port is only going to work as a 1.1 usb, or will it still run as a 2.0 USB (400 mbit/s)?

do you still need a crossed ethernet cable if you want to connect the 12' PB to an other computer (other than pb 15' or pb 17')? I find that not needing to worry about type of cable is really convenient.

And a third question that I have not been able to get a proper answer to:
is the 12' PB screen the same as in the iBook 12'?

and fourth:
what is the quality of the screen? Like, do you need to look at in a special angle for colours to be ok?

[Gee4orce]

I've got a 12"-er, and I'm perfectly happy with it.


So's my girlfriend


And if that offended anybody - f*ck you.

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by dividend:
are the two USB-ports run by a single usb-chip or by two? If you put in a USB 1.1 mouse in one of them, does this mean that the other port is only going to work as a 1.1 usb, or will it still run as a 2.0 USB (400 mbit/s)?

AFAIK you can plug both USB 1 and 2 devices into a USB 2 port and both will work at their optimum speed. Supposedly.

do you still need a crossed ethernet cable if you want to connect the 12' PB to an other computer (other than pb 15' or pb 17')? I find that not needing to worry about type of cable is really convenient.

'Still' ? You don't need one on the previous generation 12" PB.

And a third question that I have not been able to get a proper answer to:
is the 12' PB screen the same as in the iBook 12'?

Don't know.

and fourth:
what is the quality of the screen? Like, do you need to look at in a special angle for colours to be ok?

Based on my previous generation 12" I'd say 'a little'. The HORIZONTAL viewing range is good, but the VERTICAL viewing range is not so good, and you do get the feeling you're looking through polarised lenses sometimes. Certainly my previous iBook had a better screen IMO. The new crop undoubtably have different screens to mine, so I suggest you take a look in person.

[dividend]

Gee4orce:

thanx for your answer

- i didn't know that you did not need to have a crossed ethernet cable in the previous pb 12's - there is no information about that at all - very strange. I see this as one of the nice details that Apple makes but which you don't find in cheaper notebooks.

- there is no information about the USB chips neither, but I suspect that many cheaper notebooks actually only have one usb chip... any one can confirm this?

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by x user:
The 12" is for people who are willing to trade off the features of the 15" or 17" for shear portablity, like the duo of yesteryear.

This was not the case for me. Nod doubt some people buy the 12" for the incredible portability; however if they are looking for all the features, the 15 is pretty portable as well.

I bought my 12 because of the price. I could afford it and it was the only powerbook I could afford. If Apple had put in all the extra features found in the 15 and 17, then I'm not sure I could have been able to afford it. I'm sure this is the case for others as well, and more than likely part of the reason some of these extra features Apple is keeping out. Sure they could put some of them in, but then up goes the price and whatever section of their market is buying the 12" because they can afford them may go bye-bye (don't assume if the price was higher they'd have gone with an iBook then. If the price was higher and I could not afford the 12" powerbook, I for one would NOT have gone with an iBook).

[Drakino]

Originally posted by RooneyX:
Most of us hardly ever use the backlit keyboards on the bigger models anyway.

But do you allow the light sensors to change the brightness on the LCD? That to me is the killer feature of getting the backlit keyboard. The lighting around the keyboard just happens to be secondary.

[iomatic]

But there you go-- i mean, if some people find it a novelty (like myself, who have had one), then I would opt for the 12"; I don't want every feature packed in there at the expense of portability -- at some point the threshold gets reached where price: performance topples, and this is where everyone is arguing around. Only Apple can decide this. Whether Apple is forcing you into decisions regarding a PowerBook is ridiculous; you still have a choice. Buy it if you need it; if there's nothing compelling for you, well, wait, or go with a PC.

Look, they don't make every possible configuration for every individual; they have to decide on what will work for most people at certain price points, have a bit of options up and down the range (add a faster hard drive, RAM, etc.), but that's what you get with a single, arguably the best, computer provider (i.e., Apple).

Originally posted by Drakino:
But do you allow the light sensors to change the brightness on the LCD? That to me is the killer feature of getting the backlit keyboard. The lighting around the keyboard just happens to be secondary.

[rag on a muffin]

Originally posted by hldan:

When I had my old iBook I kept leaning the screen downward to to furnish light for the keyboard to find certain keys that don't involve everyday typing.

me 2. i still dont know how to type without looking at keyboard.

[Superchicken]

Originally posted by Troll:
I have observed that people who have lots of posts think they somehow become entitled to enforce rules around here. I was merely making an observation that in your case you resorted to trying to censor people despite not having many posts. I wasn't implying that number of posts makes you special - quite the contrary.

Virtually any post is offensive to someone. Heck, you used the word "God" which some Jews find offensive (it should have been G-d); you used it without qualifying it with an "if he wills it," as some religions would require. This is a secular website AFAIK and for good reason because accomodating all of you religious types would be impossible.

The rules of the forum are enforced by the *moderators*. You aren't a moderator yet. If you have a problem with a post, report the person to the mods don't patronise the poster by moralising and publically rebuking them. I respect your private beliefs but grandstanding your morality/religion is just not cool.

And here I am doing precisely what I accused you of. Enough of this.

Hey Troll SHUT UP!

Hoiba, look if you want he's been registered just as long as you have, or around there, same year whatever, and I have weay more posts than you. And guess what, WE'RE BOTH OFFENDED! Please for goodness sake stop shoving your "right of free speach" in other people's faces. It's rude, plain and simple, and don't give me that BS of oh well I shouldn't be on the internet, no perhaps people like YOU shouldn't be on the internet, then maybe it would be a bit more reasonable and enjoyable to use for those of us who don't get off on conflict.

As to the original post, FW 800 would be nice, but good luck fitting it in, I own a 1Ghz one and to be honet, the ports run almost the entire length of the machine, right up until about the part where the HD goes in. They'd have to drop a USB port or something to fit another port in. As for the back lit keyboard.. no real geek should need his or her keyboard lit up, touch typers all the way baby!

Oh and this Machine is a LOT better than a hyped iBook, trust me I owned an iBook before this (900Mhz) and this is more solid, scratch resistant, the keyboard though not backlit is BEAUTIFUL, and the overall feel of the machine screams POWERBOOK... so yah.

[Commodus]

Originally posted by jamesa:

... and my observation is that there's always a contingent who makes it their mission - nay, duty - to apologise for Apple whenever someone makes some constructive criticism. Because that's exactly what you're doing! What I'm asking is not unreasonable, nor physically infeasible - simply use the same graphics card as the other powerbooks! Instead, Apple changes the case, up the processor a bit (not a lot) then gouges their customers!

Yes the DVI was a reasonable request, but so too is the same graphics card. The gigabit ethernet is unlikely to take up significantly more space (though I'm willing to stand corrected on this). There's no reason they can't put the backlit keyboard in.

I'm not trying to apologize for Apple. The first 12" PowerBook model had a few key flaws (a relatively weak G4, heat, and the VGA-only output), and I think that revision C is where Apple is truly hitting its stride.

However, I would like to think that I'm also realistic about what Apple can do with the 12" PowerBook. Even if a Mobility Radeon 9700 was underclocked to a reasonable level for the case, don't you think that it would add significantly to the cost of the system? Same with the backlit keyboard - assuming Apple even has room for the light sensors as they do on the 15" or 17" models.

Right now, the only thing I think is missing (that Apple could add right now) is gigabit Ethernet. The package as a whole is very much reasonable for what it *should* be doing: placing an emphasis on portability first, with the ability to be used as a light-duty desktop if necessary.

[jamesa]

Originally posted by dennis88:
You just CAN'T put a ati mobility 9700 or 9600 in a 12" notebook!
The whole notebook would heat up like crazy, and damage parts in it, it's just not possible. Yet.

I have a dell inspiron 8600 with the ati 9600 pro turbo, and even this fat brick heats up a lot!
When using a program designed for the notebook, it shows that the gpu (ati 9600 pro turbo) goes up as much as 100 Celsius while playing intense games!
Imagine this card in a 12" powerbook then!
Not just that, but they would have to clock the gpu WAY down to keep it cool, and it would be easily beaten by the fx5200go at those clocks.

The ati mobility 9700 makes even more heat, BUT it all depends on the clock settings.
The clock settings on the mobility 9700 in the powerbook 15" and 17" should be much lower than the clock settings on the mobilty 9700 in for example the dell xps, or inspiron 9100.
So one notebook with the mobility 9700 doesn't have to give the same game power as another notebook with the mobility 9700, because of different clocks, remember that.

The powerbook 15"'s mobility card is probby clocked at about 400/200 and the Dell xps at 450/270.
And if the mobility 9700 was going in a 12" pb, it would be like 150/70....

Another thing is that the 12" powerbook, is the 12" notebook with the best gpu so far.
almost every 12" notebook pc have integrated gpu, which sucks hard.

You shouldn't complain...At all.
If you don't like it, then don't buy it, it's that simple.

You know what irritates me more? People who get on these boards and act like they know everything, when really they just sound like they know everything.

The ATI Radeon 9700 does not have to be fixed at a set clock speed. The clock speed can be varied on the fly. By the chip. So if temp or battery life is too negatively affected, guess what? Just drop the clock speed, on the fly.

Don't believe me? Go search for PowerPlay on the ATI website.

Originally posted by Commodus:
I'm not trying to apologize for Apple. The first 12" PowerBook model had a few key flaws (a relatively weak G4, heat, and the VGA-only output), and I think that revision C is where Apple is truly hitting its stride.

However, I would like to think that I'm also realistic about what Apple can do with the 12" PowerBook. Even if a Mobility Radeon 9700 was underclocked to a reasonable level for the case, don't you think that it would add significantly to the cost of the system? Same with the backlit keyboard - assuming Apple even has room for the light sensors as they do on the 15" or 17" models.

Right now, the only thing I think is missing (that Apple could add right now) is gigabit Ethernet. The package as a whole is very much reasonable for what it *should* be doing: placing an emphasis on portability first, with the ability to be used as a light-duty desktop if necessary.

That's the other thing about Apple apologists - they only admit Apple mistakes that Apple have admitted themselves!

Look, I'm not going to keep having a go at you because I don't really believe you're a true breed of Apple apologist. I think you differ in opinion to me, but don't fly off at me and say I'm a whining troll. I'm not - I'm just wishing that Apple would offer a Pro powerbook instead of taking the easy route, which is to take the iBook logic board and stick it in an aluminium case.

Finally, I wouldn't mind paying more for the 9700. But at the moment, there's not a heap that Apple's doing to differentiate the cost of the 12" iBook and the 12" Powerbook. Just fixing the graphics card and the ethernet would be enough to totally push me over the line.

Just so nobody even dreams I'm a troll, I think the 15" and 17" are now great machines with the update - especially the graphics card. The 15" is so good that I'm tempted to compromise the portability I need just to get the functionality I'm after.

-- james

[Commodus]

The 12" PowerBook only really started sharing any direct connection to the iBook's logic board as of... well, the newest revision. Before, the PowerBook was always one step ahead: the original had a G4 logic board when the iBook had a G3. Revision B had a 7447 when the iBook was just getting its G4 board (a 7455). Now, they're both using 7447A chips and the corresponding mainboards.

I would argue that there's plenty differentiating the iBook and the PowerBook. Just because it doesn't have the exact same graphics chip or a backlit keyboard that you may only use occasionally doesn't mean that it's no better than an iBook.

Let's count the differences, shall we?

• 33% faster clock speed (including a faster FSB)
• double the hard drive space
• built-in Bluetooth
• Airport Extreme card included
• double the video memory
• desktop spanning officially supported
• DVI-out, not just VGA-out
• audio line-in
• Superdrive as an option on a 12" model
• a considerably smaller and lighter enclosure

I'd consider that a fairly lengthy list of differences, how about you? Sure, you could BTO the iBook to get the 60 GB drive, Bluetooth and Airport Extreme card, but that won't get you a faster processor or better video features.

[JKT]

For those who are interested, here's what a new 12" looks like inside... there really isn't much, if any, room for extra ports.

Here's the 15" PB (it is the previous version) for comparison.

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by dividend:
Gee4orce:

thanx for your answer

- i didn't know that you did not need to have a crossed ethernet cable in the previous pb 12's - there is no information about that at all - very strange. I see this as one of the nice details that Apple makes but which you don't find in cheaper notebooks.

Here's the KB article on which Apple products need and don't need a crossover cable.

[dividend]

thanx a lot!

[dividend]

hmm, on a second thought - do pc notebooks have this as well; how can one tell?