[darth-vader000]

I'd hold off and see if your MB runs hot.

I'm starting to see some reports that the newer Macbooks are running cooler.

Its a cool idea that your willing to produce a more scientific approach to this. I'd suggest you take some pictures.

[jokell82]

I'd still like to see a step by step process in pictures. I'm contemplating doing it myself but I'm hesitant to open this thing up.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

I'd hold off and see if your MB runs hot.

I'm starting to see some reports that the newer Macbooks are running cooler.

Its a cool idea that your willing to produce a more scientific approach to this. I'd suggest you take some pictures.

Ok so what are we considering cooler or hot?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by mavherzog

So, if you are at all interested in the results, give me a test plan. What before and after measurements/temps do you want to see? And under what conditions? What, specifically, would you like to see photographed?

I'd be interested, especially since you're volunteering to be the sorry guinea pig.

Get an infrared temp sensor and take bottom, port side top, and palm rest temps for different load conditions (idle, safari browsing, 100% load) at different times (right after booting the cold MB, right when the temps seem to have stabilized after booting and idling, after prolonged heavy use). Detail the ambient temperatures, the surface on which the MB was sitting (yeah, take temp measurements of that surface as well) and the specs as well as build week. Do all of that before you destroy your warrantee.

The do the job and document with photos (and please don't do blurry close-ups). I'd like to see before and after close-ups of the ICs with thermal paste, the heat pipe and the temperature sensor connections.

Then repeat the measurements after you're finished and closed it up again.

Hey, I know that's a whole lot to do, but you asked for it.

[mavherzog]

I'll have to see if I can rent an infrared temp sensor.

[mavherzog]

Originally Posted by Simon

Get an infrared temp sensor and take bottom, port side top, and palm rest temps for different load conditions (idle, safari browsing, 100% load) at different times (right after booting the cold MB, right when the temps seem to have stabilized after booting and idling, after prolonged heavy use). Detail the ambient temperatures, the surface on which the MB was sitting (yeah, take temp measurements of that surface as well) and the specs as well as build week. Do all of that before you destroy your warrantee.

I will take all the temps at idle (letting it warm up for an hour first) and during heavy load (2 iterations of "yes > /dev/null" should do it). I don't much see the point in getting the temps at initial start up.

This will be in a climate-controlled environment, so the ambient temparature will be the same (but I will make sure and note it)

[Simon]

You're right the cold temp is not important, but what is important is to start up from a cold MB and measure the time until you reach temp equilibrium.

[darth-vader000]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Ok so what are we considering cooler or hot?

I'm not getting your point

My point I was conveying that some of the newer Macbooks are running cooler then the older ones and doing the surgery may not be needed.

Originally Posted by jokell82

I'd still like to see a step by step process in pictures. I'm contemplating doing it myself but I'm hesitant to open this thing up.

Check out my link it has step by step directions for disassemby. If your not sure what to do, I'd reconsider the process.

Mike

[mavherzog]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

Check out my link it has step by step directions for disassemby. If your not sure what to do, I'd reconsider the process.

Just took another look at the disassembly instructions. That is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than tearing apart my old 12" iBook. (and that was just to replace the hdd!)

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

Check out my link it has step by step directions for disassemby. If your not sure what to do, I'd reconsider the process.

Mike

I must've missed that link - that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll probably give it a try myself next weekend.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

I'm not getting your point
Mike

Hot and cool is subjective. What temperature is considered cool and which is hot?

[Guy Kuo]

Take a peak at http://www.rospa.com/productsafety/a...mperatures.htm. Scroll down to appendix II - a table of recommended temperatures and safe contact times. Of particular interest is that for plastic surfaces. My MacBook's case bottom reads 57 deg C with my IR thermometer. That makes it okay for fairly limited skin contact times.

[darth-vader000]

Originally Posted by Skywalkers new Hand

Hot and cool is subjective. What temperature is considered cool and which is hot?

Ok, and your right but reports are starting to trickle in that the temps are in the 40 and 50 range so that is indeed an improvement,.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

Ok, and your right but reports are starting to trickle in that the temps are in the 40 and 50 range so that is indeed an improvement,.

Absolutely. But both my week 20 and 23 are both at 65 degrees.

[mavherzog]

Originally Posted by mavherzog

I'll have to see if I can rent an infrared temp sensor.

Is this acceptable??

[TiDual]

Originally Posted by Skywalkers new Hand

Absolutely. But both my week 20 and 23 are both at 65 degrees.

Yeah, I get 66C on mine (black book with 120HD + 2GB Ram), and must say I'm finding that to be a bit much. Anyone else get "mooing fans", by the way? When mine hits that temp, the fans don't come on properly, but rather whirr-up and back down again at 20 second intervals. Kind of irritating.

[mavherzog]

My new macbook (low-end model) should be at my doorstep sometime today. I've got 2GB of ram and a 120GB hdd waiting for it...but I will probably do all my testing completely stock and upgrade once that process is complete.

[freakboy2]

you know what always kills me about these discussions about thermal paste X being better than therma paste Y..

i had a p3 1.4 and i had thermal paste on it. it ran at a decent temp. I took OFF the thermal paste and replaced it with nothing, the contacts were perfectly flat. The temps went WAY down.

thermal paste is an insulator compared to the metal parts it connects. The less of it the better. You only want the smallest amount to get rid of air pockets. otherwise, you want the metal on direct contact with the metal.

I'm sure that people are getting great temp improvements with their re-dos of a thermal compound. They're taking overheating machines (most likely with excess paste) and replacing them with the minimum paste for the job. That will always improve the cooling rates.

[mavherzog]

Ok, here's what I got so far. This was all performed in a climate-controlled room (A/C) at 75 F.

Idle after 15 minutes:
pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5

Idle after 30 minutes:
pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5

Max temp at full CPU utilization (both cores ala two instances of "yes > /dev/null"):
pic1

Stabalized temp at full CPU utilization once fans kick in and do their job:
pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5, pic6

Stabilized idle temp after 100% CPU test was completed:
pic1

(let me know if any of these pics look off in relation to the descriptions...I threw them up pretty quick)

[mavherzog]

I've got a class to attend tonight. I should get home around 10pm CDT. If there are no objections, I will start the process to reapply the thermal paste at that time. I will not document much other than what the current "goop" looks like when I remove the heat sink (and a few pics of my application of AS5) as there are several documents on disassembly. I will upload those pics then start documenting the post temps (mirroring what I did above).

[mavherzog]

Originally Posted by freakboy2

you know what always kills me about these discussions about thermal paste X being better than therma paste Y..

i had a p3 1.4 and i had thermal paste on it. it ran at a decent temp. I took OFF the thermal paste and replaced it with nothing, the contacts were perfectly flat. The temps went WAY down.

thermal paste is an insulator compared to the metal parts it connects. The less of it the better. You only want the smallest amount to get rid of air pockets. otherwise, you want the metal on direct contact with the metal.

I'm sure that people are getting great temp improvements with their re-dos of a thermal compound. They're taking overheating machines (most likely with excess paste) and replacing them with the minimum paste for the job. That will always improve the cooling rates.

Well then. You should be all on board in regards to THIS thread...as it is all about the APPLICATION of the thermal paste by Apple and not really a debate about the QUALITY of the paste used.

[mavherzog]

Ok, here are the AFTER photos/measurements.

Idle after 15 minutes:
pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5

Idle after 30 minutes:
pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5

Max temp at full CPU utilization (both cores ala two instances of "yes > /dev/null"):
pic1

Stabalized temp at full CPU utilization once fans kick in and do their job:
pic1, pic2, pic3, pic4, pic5, pic6

Stabilized idle temp after 100% CPU test was completed:
pic1

Gee, that was a blast. now to throw in my new hdd and ram, reinstall OS X, and actually start USING this bad boy!

(BTW, I am not going to make any conclusions regarding these results. You make up your own mind.

[mavherzog]

Oops, almost forgot the other pics.

Thermal grease on the heat sink (sorry, these are a bit blurry):
pic1, pic2, pic3

Thermal grease on the CPU and GPU:
pic1

Fresh coat of AS5!
pic1

Clean heatsink:
pic1

[greenamp]

Why does your left RAM slot have a sticker on it that says "Good?"

[mavherzog]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Why does your left RAM slot have a sticker on it that says "Good?"

Good question! I didn't even notice that. Hmmm...

[Simon]

mavherzog, congrats on the job. Very nice documentation, too. You demonstrated very nicely that although the heat output doesn't change, the power dissipation to ambient air has obviously been improved.

[jokell82]

So it looks like idle temps are way down, but load temps are the same. Hmm....

[darth-vader000]

Originally Posted by jokell82

So it looks like idle temps are way down, but load temps are the same. Hmm....

That makes sense, the thermal pastes doesn't cool the CPU just helps conduct the heat to the heat sink. Once its there, there's no difference in how the MB evacuates the heat out of the computer. I suspect (as I noticed it on my MB) that once the cpu load is removed, the cooling of the MB is going to be marginally faster with the improved application of AS5 since it is able to migrate the heat more effeciently to the heat sink.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by darth-vader000

That makes sense, the thermal pastes doesn't cool the CPU just helps conduct the heat to the heat sink. Once its there, there's no difference in how the MB evacuates the heat out of the computer. I suspect (as I noticed it on my MB) that once the cpu load is removed, the cooling of the MB is going to be marginally faster with the improved application of AS5 since it is able to migrate the heat more effeciently to the heat sink.

It makes sense to me as well. It's actually made me want to open this baby up even more, as I hardly ever see 100% usage so my average temperatures should be much lower.

[j0nkatz]

I "did the deed" last night. I can tell no difference in idle or load temps in CoreDUOTemp. I'll give it a few days to "cure" then report back.

I did use AS5 also. I will try to include pics of my heatsink and CPU before I removed the factory thermal paste.

[ghporter]

j0nkatz, yours doesn't look like it got as goo-coated as a lot of others, so maybe you won't see anything dramatic in terms of temp changes.

[j0nkatz]

Originally Posted by ghporter

j0nkatz, yours doesn't look like it got as goo-coated as a lot of others, so maybe you won't see anything dramatic in terms of temp changes.

Me either. I have never thought that the paste was an issue on these machines. I think it is a combo of a normally hot CPU and buggy firmware. I just like taking **** apart!

Oh yeah, mine is a 4H620 machine too. A Black one.

[harrisjamieh]

Looking at that picture, it looks as though either a) thermal paste has never been a problem, or b) Apple has realised that they were using too much, and has fixed this.

[j0nkatz]

Starnge.

I look at my (and others') pics of the internals of this thing. I then feel where it's getting hot at and it really feels like a GPU heat issue or maybe the Airport card.

[SHNAKE]

jonkatz: What were (and are) your cpu temperatures and case temperatures?

mavherzog: I know that your cpu temperatures dropped nicely but what kind of change in temperature of the bottom of the case did you notice? Is it cool enough to put on your lap now? it seems to me like the outside of the case is almost hotter when the fan is off and the cpu is cool than when the cpu is hot and the fan is on so I am just scared that if i properly apply thermal paste I might lower the cpu temperature but end up making the outside of the case HOTTER on my lap during normal use

[j0nkatz]

70c CPU and 45-49C on the case measured with a IR Thermometer.

[ghporter]

I do not see an AirPort card getting hot at all. The GPU, on the other hand, might just get quite toasty.

[chadseld]

Here is MY story...

I too replaced the thermal compound on my macbook. I used Arctic Silver 5. The results were horrible.

First, I have used Arctic Silver many times before on my AMD systems. I followed the Arctic Silver instructions exactly.

I must have replaced the compound on my macbook at least 8 times. Each time, the CPU temperature was higher than the original temps from the factory. I saw temperatures rapidly rise above 100C -- which is the highest reading Core Duo Temp can report. I tried thin coats, thinner coats, thick coats and everything in between. I tried every combination of application and the best result came from following the apple service manual and putting about 1cc of paste per die. I can now run both cores at full load and stay under 100C (barely)

MEASURE THE TEMP UNDER LOAD .. NOT AT IDLE!!

Idle temps rise very very slowly, so a measurement 10 min after boot is not the same as 20 min after boot. You should measure your CPU temp when both cores are at 100%. (I.E. run 'yes > /dev/null' twice, or run 'openssl speed' twice).

Using Core Duo temp, when you measure your temperature, note the CPU MHz. If your CPU gets too hot, it will slow itself down. For instance, if your temp is > 100C at 2GHz, then it will run at 1.5GHz or even as low as 1GHz. Your goal is to keep the chip cool at full speed.

MEASURE TEMPERATURE WITH THE BATTERY INSTALLED

If your battery is removed, the CPU speed is set to 1GHz. This will cause abnormally cool temperature readings.

My own theory is that on some macbooks, the heat sync does not lay flat against the CPU die. The heat sync is one solid piece of metal which rests against the CPU and the Northbridge chip. Because of the way the chips are installed, or because of the way the heat sync is manufactured, it is impossible for the heat sync to rest exactly flat against both of the chips if one of the chips is slightly out of alignment. This is why a thick coat of thermal compound is required. With a very thin coat, part of the CPU is not in contact with the heat sync.

[SHNAKE]

Originally Posted by chadseld

Here is MY story...

I too replaced the thermal compound on my macbook. I used Arctic Silver 5. The results were horrible.

First, I have used Arctic Silver many times before on my AMD systems. I followed the Arctic Silver instructions exactly.

I must have replaced the compound on my macbook at least 8 times. Each time, the CPU temperature was higher than the original temps from the factory. I saw temperatures rapidly rise above 100C -- which is the highest reading Core Duo Temp can report. I tried thin coats, thinner coats, thick coats and everything in between. I tried every combination of application and the best result came from following the apple service manual and putting about 1cc of paste per die. I can now run both cores at full load and stay under 100C (barely)

MEASURE THE TEMP UNDER LOAD .. NOT AT IDLE!!

Idle temps rise very very slowly, so a measurement 10 min after boot is not the same as 20 min after boot. You should measure your CPU temp when both cores are at 100%. (I.E. run 'yes > /dev/null' twice, or run 'openssl speed' twice).

Using Core Duo temp, when you measure your temperature, note the CPU MHz. If your CPU gets too hot, it will slow itself down. For instance, if your temp is > 100C at 2GHz, then it will run at 1.5GHz or even as low as 1GHz. Your goal is to keep the chip cool at full speed.

MEASURE TEMPERATURE WITH THE BATTERY INSTALLED

If your battery is removed, the CPU speed is set to 1GHz. This will cause abnormally cool temperature readings.

My own theory is that on some macbooks, the heat sync does not lay flat against the CPU die. The heat sync is one solid piece of metal which rests against the CPU and the Northbridge chip. Because of the way the chips are installed, or because of the way the heat sync is manufactured, it is impossible for the heat sync to rest exactly flat against both of the chips if one of the chips is slightly out of alignment. This is why a thick coat of thermal compound is required. With a very thin coat, part of the CPU is not in contact with the heat sync.

Measuring the temperature at idle is far more useful for the average consumer than measuring the temperature at full load. Full load might measure how well the thermal paste has been applied better, but there is another aspect that you have not mentioned. Part of the problem of why macbook pros and macbooks have problems with temperature is that an overly thick layer of thermal paste can interfere with the cpus temperature sensor that can impair its ability to properly initiate fan startups in order to control temperatures. Idle temperature is different at 10min than at 20min which is why idle temperature should be measured after an equilibrium is reached. This should happen by 30min-1hr.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by chadseld

MEASURE THE TEMP UNDER LOAD .. NOT AT IDLE!!

Why, I think looking at what my MB is doing while sitting there is just as important as seeing it under a load. I typically note the temps while idling and they don't rise slowly. I see it sitting there in the high 50s. If your going to do this type of operation taking all the measurements you possibly can is a prudent action as you can see how the thermal grease has helped (or not).

MEASURE TEMPERATURE WITH THE BATTERY INSTALLED

Good point

As for replacing the thermal grease, I wonder if its needed on later MacBooks. It seems based on reports that the newer macs do infact run cooler then the first models so the risk vs. the reward his higher,i.e., the possible savings don't outweigh the risk. Also I wonder if Apple was having thermal grease issues with the first run of MBs wouldn't they have corrected this problem and so reapplying the stuff wouldn't really yield too much? Just some points to ponder.

bummer on your experience tho

[chadseld]

The reason I say to measure temp at load and not at idle is because the idle temps rise so slowly. My computer may only be 50C after 1hr but 67C by the end of the day. Which idle temp is valid? Also, you want to know if your computer will overheat when being fully used. A reapplication of paste does you no good if your computer shuts down (or destroys itself) the next time you export an iMovie project.

[mac128k-1984]

Originally Posted by chadseld

The reason I say to measure temp at load and not at idle is because the idle temps rise so slowly. My computer may only be 50C after 1hr but 67C by the end of the day.

I'm not seeing that in my Macbook. for what ever reason the sleep in my MB hasn't worked and so leaving the lid up keeps the computer running. I did not notice this phenomenon for a while, other then saying "gee why isn't this sleeping" Anyways having it idle for extended periods had no real appreciable increase in temps. They were in the high 50s to begin with (for the most part) and stayed there.

The computer's heat is going to reach equalibrium, that is the heat evacuation vs. the heat generation is going level off and its going to sit at a certain point - unless its a dell and then it will catch fire My MB seems like the high 50s (celsius) and doesn't really budge from that temp.

[Simon]

Yeah, idle temp measurement definitely makes sense. You just have to make sure you measure it in thermal equilibrium. If you let your MB or MBP sit there and idle on the same table, in the same room, at the same ambient temp and its temp remains constant for longer periods of time you know that you have reached thermal equilibrium and the value you then measure is just as meaningful as the peak temp.