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Trump's Cabinet of Deplorables: Now with 33% fewer memes! (Page 2)
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 22, 2016, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
This Jeff Sessions?
In Alabama, Jeff Sessions Desegregated Schools and Got the Death Penalty for KKK Murderer (Updated) | The Weekly Standard

Did he praise a KKK kleagle and call him a mentor? Did he give the eulogy for a known segrationist who signed the "Southern Manifesto?"
So you agree he's establishment?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 22, 2016, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I'll be happy when Planned Parenthood no longer receives $500,000,000 a year from the tax payers. Getting Roe overturned does not mean abortion will be illegal. It means it will be back in the hands of individual states
yeah, I'm sure the GOP won't try to outlaw abortion while they control every federal branch. And if by some miracle they don't, enjoy your rights as a woman being determined by which state you were born in.
     
subego
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Nov 22, 2016, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So, the Trump voters got nothing? Tell me how establishment politician and racist Jeff Sessions will make America Great Again.
I honestly know very little about him.
     
Laminar
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Nov 22, 2016, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
BTW Snopes says unproven.
Yes, I read the link I posted. I could have very easily posted any of the many news stories that claimed After Texas Slashed Its Family Planning Budget, Maternal Deaths Almost Doubled, but I'm not dishonest like that, which is why I specifically stated "potentially an uptick."

So are you going to address my question directly or are you going to redirect and reply with more memes?
     
subego
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Nov 22, 2016, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
yeah, I'm sure the GOP won't try to outlaw abortion while they control every federal branch. And if by some miracle they don't, enjoy your rights as a woman being determined by which state you were born in.
More accurately whether you have the means to travel.

This is the kind of thing which puts the brakes on my libertarianism, which is of course partial to state's rights.
     
Chongo
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Nov 22, 2016, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yes, I read the link I posted. I could have very easily posted any of the many news stories that claimed After Texas Slashed Its Family Planning Budget, Maternal Deaths Almost Doubled, but I'm not dishonest like that, which is why I specifically stated "potentially an uptick."

So are you going to address my question directly or are you going to redirect and reply with more memes?
This post abortion ban study says that's another "big abortion" myth.
Abortion Ban Does Not Mean More Maternal Deaths, Chilean Study Finds
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 22, 2016, 07:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is the kind of thing which puts the brakes on my libertarianism, which is of course partial to state's rights.
Indeed, state's rights for a lot of people are crucially important when it comes to their pet issue. If your support for state's rights is that you'd like to abolish abortions (or maintain segregation) and you know you can't realistically do that on the federal level, then state's rights are just a thin veil, a rhetorical device to bolster your argument. On that note, it'd be interesting to see what VP-elect Mike Pence's policies on marijuana, given that he is a strong self-proclaimed proponent of state's rights and many ballot initiatives to legalize marijuana (for medical or even recreational use) have gone through.
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besson3c
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Nov 22, 2016, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
More accurately whether you have the means to travel.

This is the kind of thing which puts the brakes on my libertarianism, which is of course partial to state's rights.

I appreciate your candidness and openness about a potential vulnerability of your general perspective. Everything exists in a balance and compromise, I get tired of people presenting their politics as black and white righteousness.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I honestly know very little about him.
Pardon the snark, but there were an assload of articles about him the second the nom was made. Feel free to start there, if you're interested.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:20 PM
 
GUYS

with all due respect let's not derail this into another abortion thread. The topic is Trumps staff, and I don't see any supporters rushing to defend or celebrate his picks so far.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Pardon the snark, but there were an assload of articles about him the second the nom was made. Feel free to start there, if you're interested.
The idea was more a declaration there is no agenda behind my lack of response.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The idea was more a declaration there is no agenda behind my lack of response.
Will there be a response in the future?
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
yeah, I'm sure the GOP won't try to outlaw abortion while they control every federal branch.
...

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
GUYS

with all due respect let's not derail this into another abortion thread.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Will there be a response in the future?
I make no promises, but one can assume I'll come up with something within the next four years.

As a tease, there's never been an Attorney General I've liked.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:37 PM
 
People seem to like the Marine guy he's talking about as SoD, though he sounds like he may be more suited to the JCS.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 23, 2016, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I make no promises, but one can assume I'll come up with something within the next four years.

As a tease, there's never been an Attorney General I've liked.
That's disappointing. This guys history with civil rights is a bit of a red flag for a guy who will be overseeing people not getting ****ed over by the states.

Edit: Which is to say I like using you as a sounding board for how my liberal reality matches up with your libertarian one.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
That's disappointing. This guys history with civil rights is a bit of a red flag for a guy who will be overseeing people not getting ****ed over by the states.

Edit: Which is to say I like using you as a sounding board for how my liberal reality matches up with your libertarian one.
I'll admit, part of my reason for not taking up the research at this moment is I can certainly hear the gnashing of teeth about this guy happening in the other room, and I'm not looking forward to walking in and wrestling with everyone's cognitive bias.

My own included. Such as being predisposed to hating all prosecutors.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 01:07 PM
 
I mean, if you have to have an Attorney General, it should be someone like Dershowitz.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 23, 2016, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll admit, part of my reason for not taking up the research at this moment is I can certainly hear the gnashing of teeth about this guy happening in the other room, and I'm not looking forward to walking in and wrestling with everyone's cognitive bias.

My own included. Such as being predisposed to hating all prosecutors.
Maybe a good starting point would be a critique of our last two under Obama.

Maybe I should start a new thread for this.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 04:09 PM
 
I looked over Sessions' wiki.

This guy's way too ideological to be part of the swamp. If you want to know how the alt-right want to think of themselves, this guy is the definition.

He's on the vanguard of the crusade for Christian, European culture.
     
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Nov 23, 2016, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
He's on the vanguard of the crusade for Christian, European culture.
Hey, leave Europeans out of it! We are way, way more progressive than this guy.

(I agree, his appointment together with Bannon's and Flynt's is among the most problematic.)
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subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Hey, leave Europeans out of it! We are way, way more progressive than this guy.
That would likely be his fundamental criticism, and to what he'd attribute the precipitous drop of Europe's overall importance in world affairs.
     
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Nov 23, 2016, 09:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That would likely be his fundamental criticism, and to what he'd attribute the precipitous drop of Europe's overall importance in world affairs.
Shows what he knows … 
So what's your opinion of Trump's appointments overall? It seems to me that he wants to make “everyone happy”, he appoints Brennon to make his alt right constituency happy and Priebus to appease the GOP establishment. But I can't really see any clear line here, neither ideologically nor in terms of policies. (Although you could say it is consistent with Trump's inconsistencies.)
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subego
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Nov 23, 2016, 09:59 PM
 
I'm almost positive Trump's thought process has very little to with making people happy.

Rince isn't there to appease, he's there to break the kneecaps of everyone in his Rolodex.

Sessions is there to make people illegally crossing the border very unhappy.

Bannon is Rove 2.0. Look at the barrel of laughs he turned out to be.


Do you consider Europe to be in decline? If so, what would you point to as the most important factor?
     
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Nov 24, 2016, 02:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm almost positive Trump's thought process has very little to with making people happy.
The ultimate motivation isn't, that I agree with, but IMHO he thinks that making as many people happy now gives him an advantage and leverage.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Rince isn't there to appease, he's there to break the kneecaps of everyone in his Rolodex.
I don't know, Preibus strikes me as a beta whereas Bannon is an alpha.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do you consider Europe to be in decline? If so, what would you point to as the most important factor?
That depends on the region of Europe you are talking about. Germany is doing quite well, especially with the recent wave of immigrants. That'll be a boon to the economy in a few years, and we'd have more workers in areas where it is difficult to find workers (e. g. in the care and health care sector). I'm quite sure that will cement and lead to a new era of German dominance (albeit not out any desire to do so, Germany is one of the most pro-European countries, certainly the most pro-European big country inside the EU). Other regions are in decline, though. Also spiritually, many European seem to be heading towards the ideas of yesteryear, isolationism, nationalism and fear of the other to compensate for other, home-made problems.

Our solutions (and I include the US) to new and not-so-new problems is mostly motivated by (misplaced) romanticism of the past, we cower in fear of terrorists even though we have much more substantial problems. Terrorism only works because we choose to be terrorized, instead of showing that our culture is better because we do not reject 1,000 people because 1 or 2 might be terrorists, instead of showing that we follow the rule of law and execute or torture people who do not even have the option to defend themselves. Our culture also hasn't had time to adapt to new technologies, e. g. what our notion of privacy is in the 21st century, and what we will do when automation takes away more and more jobs. We should ask these questions now.

Personally, though, I am convinced that in 100, 200 years, the period we will go through is a blip where people briefly went in the wrong direction. Technology and its new possibilities are the big driving forces behind internationalization, dissolving the significance of borders and national institutions in the process. It's inevitable.
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Nov 24, 2016, 06:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That depends on the region of Europe you are talking about. Germany is doing quite well, especially with the recent wave of immigrants. That'll be a boon to the economy in a few years, and we'd have more workers in areas where it is difficult to find workers
.
Are you sure about that?
German court lets off 'Sharia police' patrol in Wuppertal - BBC News
A German court has ruled that Islamists who patrolled a city's streets as "Sharia police" did not break the law and will not be prosecuted.
Nine were arrested in September 2014 after patrolling streets in Wuppertal, western Germany. They wore bright orange jackets with the words "Sharia police". They told passers-by not to frequent discos, casinos or bars.
The court said they had not violated laws on uniforms and public gatherings.
Prosecutors have now lodged an appeal.
     
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Nov 24, 2016, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Are you sure about that?
Yeah, I am. The sharia police was an isolated incident that has received a lot of media attention, and has nothing to do with immigrants.

Germany has dealt with at least three waves of mass immigration over the last 25 years alone:

(1) After the fall of the iron curtain 1.8 million people immigrated from the former East between 1992 and 2015 (almost half of the grand total of 4.5 million who immigrated between 1950 and 2015).
(2) When Yugoslavia fell into civil war Germany took in 350,000 people.
(3) Lots of people from other EU countries came to Germany, especially from Romania (which had a German-speaking minority), Italy, Spain and several other countries.
(4) And now due to the trouble in the Middle East >1 million people have entered Germany (I can only find numbers for 2015.

During each of these waves, there were short-term effects that were all but forgotten a few years later, including flare-ups of right wing attacks and populism. When I was in primary school, the “Spätaussiedler” (point (1)) came, and the sizes of classes ballooned, many children could not speak German properly, etc. Now I doubt many people even remember all this. Ditto for former Yugoslavians, of which now over 900,000 live in Germany, many of them have German passports. (And yes, quite a few of them are muslims.) Many of them have taken jobs Germans were no longer willing to do. My mom's hospital is starting partnerships with nursing schools in Poland in a desperate attempt to fill vacancies. Another example: each Romanian that came into Germany effectively lowered the unemployment rate, and had a better level of education that the German average. That's why economists are usually quite positive about immigration.

So yeah, on a historical time scale, none the earlier waves of immigration, (1)–(3), have caused a negative net effect on the long-term, even though on a short time scale, you had some chaotic periods. And no, nothing is perfect, Germany is still coming to grips with the fact that it is and has been a country of immigration. They are implementing policies now that should have been implemented 60 years ago. But better late than never. It took my (Japanese) wife ~1 week to get her work permit in Germany (which means she has the right to work in the whole of the European Economic Area). As a point of comparison, it took my American colleague with Japanese wife >1 year, and she had to stay in Japan for the meantime whereas my wife just entered Germany with me. In 20 years the majority of Germans will look back with pride at taking in all these refugees, and wonder what the big deal was.

PS Germany's immigration and asylum policies are not just a result of German atrocities during WW2, but also due to the mass exodus of Germans from formerly German territories to the remainder. Both of my grandmothers were refugees, which is why Germany's rather tolerant attitude towards asylum seekers is baked in the DNA of post-WW2 Germany.
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I looked over Sessions' wiki.

This guy's way too ideological to be part of the swamp. If you want to know how the alt-right want to think of themselves, this guy is the definition.

He's on the vanguard of the crusade for Christian, European culture.
That's an interesting analysis. So one can be in congress for 20 years and not be 'establishment'? I don't think the people who worry about the term look at it that way.
     
Laminar
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Nov 28, 2016, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
with all due respect let's not derail this into another abortion thread.
But no one gets unborn fetuses the respect that they're due!
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 05:41 PM
 
For all those who scoffed at Gary Johnson and libertarian ideas of private enterprise taking over public services, or who berated Hillary for Pay for Play, or who thought Trump would never settle Trump University lawsuit...

Trump's Secretary of Education pick DeVos: Does not believe in public education.

     
subego
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Nov 28, 2016, 06:00 PM
 
Some of these criticisms are odd, and I suspect others take a complex question and boil them down into a self-serving sentence.

My basic observation on education is this. I went to private school. It was an excellent education.

Chicago public schools get 80% of the money per pupil my grade school now asks in tuition. The quality of a Chicago public school education isn't even close to 80% of what I got.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 06:39 PM
 
Isn't private school self-selecting?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
berated Hillary for Pay for Play
That might matter if one believed Trump supporters actually care about conflicts of interest. Everything points to it being a partisan talking point.


Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Trump's Secretary of Education pick DeVos: Does not believe in public education.
Best summary I've seen:
Quick recap: the new ed secretary is anti-public schools, the new HUD sec'y is anti-Fair Housing, and the new AG is anti-Voting Rights Act.
On the plus side, I imagine Trump voters are ok with at least two those, with the rich being ok with a different two.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Isn't private school self-selecting?
In what sense?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In what sense?
For one the schools get to set the standards of entry.
For two you gotta have the $$$.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Some of these criticisms are odd, and I suspect others take a complex question and boil them down into a self-serving sentence.

My basic observation on education is this. I went to private school. It was an excellent education.

Chicago public schools get 80% of the money per pupil my grade school now asks in tuition. The quality of a Chicago public school education isn't even close to 80% of what I got.
DISCLOSURE: I am also the product of private education. I send my children to a private school.

Do you believe that if the student body of the worst grade school in Chicago was dumped into your previous school and the fee paying students were removed the outcomes would be the same?

I think the student population plays a huge role in outcomes. I assume this is what Dakar was referring to when he spoke of 'self-selecting.'
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
For one the schools get to set the standards of entry.
For two you gotta have the $$$.
Charter schools in Arizona are Tuition free. Catholic schools in the US offer tuition assistance, the diocese of Wichita is tuition free K-12.
     
subego
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Nov 28, 2016, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
For one the schools get to set the standards of entry.
For two you gotta have the $$$.
These are fair points, and I would add private schools generally make more use of charitable contributions.

On the flipside, most public schools have "economy of scale" benefits private schools don't.

Accounting for these, the quick and dirty calculations in my head still come out pretty lopsided, though I most certainly may be wrong.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
DISCLOSURE: I am also the product of private education. I send my children to a private school.

Do you believe that if the student body of the worst grade school in Chicago was dumped into your previous school and the fee paying students were removed the outcomes would be the same?

I think the student population plays a huge role in outcomes. I assume this is what Dakar was referring to when he spoke of 'self-selecting.'
The same? No.

At least a 20% improvement over the school they came from? Almost guaranteed.
     
subego
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Nov 28, 2016, 07:58 PM
 
As an aside, the real problem with education, and this applies to every class of school, is that they are boring AF.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Charter schools in Arizona are Tuition free. Catholic schools in the US offer tuition assistance, the diocese of Wichita is tuition free K-12.
Charter schools aren't private schools.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
These are fair points, and I would add private schools generally make more use of charitable contributions.

On the flipside, most public schools have "economy of scale" benefits private schools don't.

Accounting for these, the quick and dirty calculations in my head still come out pretty lopsided, though I most certainly may be wrong.
Oh, I'm not disputing per child costs may be higher at public schools. The question is where are the differences in costs? I mean, aren't private school teachers better paid?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
I think the student population plays a huge role in outcomes. I assume this is what Dakar was referring to when he spoke of 'self-selecting.'
From what I recall, income class better correlates with results than student IQ. Make of that what you will.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
These are fair points, and I would add private schools generally make more use of charitable contributions.

On the flipside, most public schools have "economy of scale" benefits private schools don't.

Accounting for these, the quick and dirty calculations in my head still come out pretty lopsided, though I most certainly may be wrong.
The point is, its not about the money, its about the kids. If you took the same economic situation and applied it to two colleges for adult education of some kind, then gave the private college a population of adult students taken entirely from the local Google offices, then gave the public college 80% of money but populated it with a random sampling from a medium security prison, what kind of results would you expect?

I've picked extreme examples, but you take my point I'm sure.
I think you're right that there is some inefficiencies with public school spending, but at the same time, metal detectors and armed guards are expensive.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh, I'm not disputing per child costs may be higher at public schools. The question is where are the differences in costs? I mean, aren't private school teachers better paid?
Unless I misunderstand, that's my point. I imagine the teachers at my school are better paid, and there are more of them per pupil, but they're only taking in 20% more cash (plus charity).
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unless I misunderstand, that's my point. I imagine the teachers at my school are better paid, and there are more of them per pupil, but they're only taking in 20% more cash (plus charity).
From what I understand one factor is the resources the child has at home. Be it money for a tutor or free time from a parent. Plus, environment, i.e., stress, nutrition, sleep.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
From what I understand one factor is the resources the child has at home. Be it money for a tutor or free time from a parent. Plus, environment, i.e., stress, nutrition, sleep.
Absolutely.

Still... take a child with poor resources. Give them more and better paid teachers. Is a 20% improvement implausible?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Absolutely.

Still... take a child with poor resources. Give them more and better paid teachers. Is a 20% improvement implausible?
The 20% is contextless figure. Are you talking numerical grades? Is a private school enough to bump someone up a full letter grade? I doubt it.
     
subego
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Nov 28, 2016, 08:48 PM
 
I am willing to accept whatever context to the number you choose.

I can buy a letter grade. Two is pushing it.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 10:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
These are fair points, and I would add private schools generally make more use of charitable contributions.

On the flipside, most public schools have "economy of scale" benefits private schools don't.
I would even question the logic of using too much economy in schools, because you only see returns to society (but not necessarily this particular school) in several decades. Smaller classes are better than larger classes for students, but also more expensive. Having up to date equipment is better for schools, but it is an expenditure with which you can do without. That's why not all things are best optimized by privatizing them, and schools are just an example.
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