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Trump's Cabinet of Deplorables: Now with 33% fewer memes! (Page 3)
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Paco500
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Nov 29, 2016, 02:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh, I'm not disputing per child costs may be higher at public schools. The question is where are the differences in costs? I mean, aren't private school teachers better paid?
I don't believe this to be universally true. In my experience, public school teachers are better paid, sometimes by a large degree, than private school teachers.

Particularly those with many years of service.
     
Doc HM
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Nov 29, 2016, 05:16 AM
 
So, we've been watching a documentary on BBC TV over here following a year in the lives of the senior class at a large (I assume) public school in rural South Carolina. As a point of interest my partner works in a large FE college here with children of the same age so we have been comparing and contrasting. Our area here is not rural (large town), not poor but not great either (goolge Swindon, Wiltshire if you are interested).

From our perspective we were hugely impressed with the US school in terms of funding. The school looked very well maintained. Classrooms were large and bright, equipment was plentiful. The sports dept seemed to have everything you could need. Cafeteria? yup looks good. Modern, clean, well looked after. There seemed plenty of staff, and they all seemed committed and highly motivated for their students to achieve. The school was 97% coloured. The principal was highly visible to his pupils each and every day.

Compared to the college here, which is so decrepit that visitors assume the building is abandoned and scheduled for demolition, with huge staff shortages, low wages, demotivated lecturers who are continually sacked in cost cutting excersises. Management that hide in large offices giving themselves huge pay rises, no equipment, no sports facilities AT ALL

And yet it seemed an impossible task to educate the American students. On one occasion only 6 out of 2,000 parents turned up to a parent/teacher meeting!! From what they showed the students seemed to come from what amounted to a wasteland of burnt out trailers, and slum housing with massive over crowding. Add in large doses of absent parenting and a feeling that there's nothing in the future for them unless they go $200,000 dollars into debt to gain a mediocre college degree that may or may not help future prospects.

One student managed to get to Florida university to study engineering and she had the total support and commitment of her single parent dad. The only other avenue that seemed open to students were sporting scholarships.

It seemed obvious that the school was doomed to fail as the students education was seen as operating in a vacuum. With so many other issues in play, graduating from high school seemed the least of their worries.

Barely a few miles away the same town had a (97% white) private school. I can't imagine the private school had more in the way of funding or facilities, indeed it looked broadly the same as the public school, but the pupils were a universe away in terms of academic achievement and future potential.

I'd love to hear any US based comments but it seems to me that funding education needs a broader remit otherwise it's just wasting money.
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Nov 29, 2016, 05:25 AM
 
Part of the issue with the funding difference is that public schools will tolerate long serving sub-standard teachers who end up miserable and jaded and worthless but on fat salaries. The private schools headhunt the best younger teachers so they get enthusiastic, talented teachers with new, innovative ideas who cost a lot less than the old rubbish ones.
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subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 06:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
The school was 97% coloured.
As an aside, somewhere in the 70s it was decided this term should fall out of favor.
     
subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I would even question the logic of using too much economy in schools, because you only see returns to society (but not necessarily this particular school) in several decades. Smaller classes are better than larger classes for students, but also more expensive. Having up to date equipment is better for schools, but it is an expenditure with which you can do without. That's why not all things are best optimized by privatizing them, and schools are just an example.
My instincts tell me it is most appropriate not to approach this as an either/or situation.

I don't think education should be strictly privatized, but there are serious flaws in the current public model which could be fixed by judicious cribbing from the private model.
     
subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 07:24 AM
 
Honest question... are any of these appointments that way out there for a Republican?
     
Doc HM
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Nov 29, 2016, 07:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As an aside, somewhere in the 70s it was decided this term should fall out of favor.
odd as it was frequently self used in the documentary. I figured it was back in usage in the US? I am out of touch obviously, or insufficiently in touch.
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Nov 29, 2016, 07:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Part of the issue with the funding difference is that public schools will tolerate long serving sub-standard teachers who end up miserable and jaded and worthless but on fat salaries. The private schools headhunt the best younger teachers so they get enthusiastic, talented teachers with new, innovative ideas who cost a lot less than the old rubbish ones.
This did not seem to be the case in the documentary. In any case there aren't enough private schools to hoover up all the talent. I suspect this is a placeholder argument for some other issue?

I have direct experience of state FE, state secondary schooling and high end public schooling in the UK and (here) it does not seem to me that state education is a sink hole for the useless teacher and I suspect it is not in the US either.
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subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 07:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
odd as it was frequently self used in the documentary. I figured it was back in usage in the US? I am out of touch obviously, or insufficiently in touch.
For me it was one of those "now that's a word I haven't heard in a long time... a long time" type situations.
     
Chongo
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Nov 29, 2016, 08:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Charter schools aren't private schools.
They aren't public schools either.
     
Paco500
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Nov 29, 2016, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
They aren't public schools either.
The State of Arizona doesn't appear to agree with you.
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Originally Posted by Arizona Dept. of Education
Created by the Arizona State Legislature in 1994, charter schools are state funded public schools.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 29, 2016, 09:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My instincts tell me it is most appropriate not to approach this as an either/or situation.

I don't think education should be strictly privatized, but there are serious flaws in the current public model which could be fixed by judicious cribbing from the private model.
No, it is not an either-or. Some counties in Colorado have made such deep cuts that they introduced 4-day school weeks. Of course, the curriculum is not cut by 20 %. If money is that tight, I don't think it's fair to blame schools for failing because they are public. And that is despite the relatively low pay teachers can expect (despite their student loans). The starting salary in the US is in the low to mid-30s so that many teachers have a second job to make ends meet.

Personally, I think one of the biggest flaws is the lack of innovation in teaching methodology and the curriculum. Some schools in Norway have a long history of experimenting with multidisciplinary studies where you look at one and the same problem from different angles (e. g. you consider issues like slavery from historical and economic points of views to get a fuller picture).
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subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by oreocookie View Post
personally, i think one of the biggest flaws is the lack of innovation in teaching methodology and the curriculum.
...

Originally Posted by subego View Post
as an aside, the real problem with education, and this applies to every class of school, is that they are boring af.

     
Chongo
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Nov 29, 2016, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
The State of Arizona doesn't appear to agree with you.
Source
They are operated by private groups,
From the FAQ's
Some charter schools are organized as non-profit corporations, for-profit corporations and still others have different structures. To learn more about the structure of a charter school, consider:

asking to see bylaws and articles of incorporation
obtaining a description of board members and their respective backgrounds
reviewing the school’s charter
attending a board meeting
Pardon my example, they are like the "private prisons" that are operated via state and federal funds.
     
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Nov 29, 2016, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, it is not an either-or. Some counties in Colorado have made such deep cuts that they introduced 4-day school weeks. Of course, the curriculum is not cut by 20 %. If money is that tight, I don't think it's fair to blame schools for failing because they are public. And that is despite the relatively low pay teachers can expect (despite their student loans). The starting salary in the US is in the low to mid-30s so that many teachers have a second job to make ends meet.

Personally, I think one of the biggest flaws is the lack of innovation in teaching methodology and the curriculum. Some schools in Norway have a long history of experimenting with multidisciplinary studies where you look at one and the same problem from different angles (e. g. you consider issues like slavery from historical and economic points of views to get a fuller picture).
What happened to all that revenue from marijuana sales that is supposed to go to the schools? That was one of the selling points.
     
subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 10:06 AM
 
If it's anything like Illinois, it works like our state lottery, which was sold on the canard all proceeds go to education.

Lottery makes $X, this is put into the school budget.

$X is taken out of the school budget and put in the general fund.
     
Chongo
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Nov 29, 2016, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If it's anything like Illinois, it works like our state lottery, which was sold on the canard all proceeds go to education.

Lottery makes $X, this is put into the school budget.

$X is taken out of the school budget and put in the general fund.
The same thing here in AZ.
I guess we need more gamblers and Colorado need more pot smokers.

Side note: Hillary Care™ was going to be funded by a $1 a pack cigarette tax. That would require a steady supply of smokers to maintain a consistent revenue flow, while at the same time attacking big tobacco.
( Last edited by Chongo; Nov 29, 2016 at 10:32 AM. )
     
subego
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Nov 29, 2016, 10:18 AM
 
And **** over broke smokers in the process.

Brilliant!
     
Chongo
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Nov 29, 2016, 10:31 AM
 
     
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Nov 29, 2016, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What happened to all that revenue from marijuana sales that is supposed to go to the schools? That was one of the selling points.
Schools shouldn't be paid for as a second-tier priority, we shouldn't scramble and try and levy new taxes to pay for something that fundamental. The problems predate the legalization of pot.
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 30, 2016, 05:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What happened to all that revenue from marijuana sales that is supposed to go to the schools? That was one of the selling points.
They spent it on Nachos.
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 30, 2016, 09:50 AM
 
I haven't visited on my desktop lately, but stopping by to mention we're getting a Goldman Sachs Wall Streeter for Treasury. Irony.
     
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Nov 30, 2016, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I haven't visited on my desktop lately, but stopping by to mention we're getting a Goldman Sachs Wall Streeter for Treasury. Irony.
And Mitch McConnell's wife for Transp. Sec.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 30, 2016, 10:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
And Mitch McConnell's wife for Transp. Sec.
Right. Another swamp pick.
     
Chongo
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Nov 30, 2016, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Right. Another swamp pick.
Dr. Price sounds like a swamp drainer.
     
subego
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Nov 30, 2016, 11:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Right. Another swamp pick.
What is the actual concern here?

I'm talking about any given cabinet member's "swamp drain" quotient.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 30, 2016, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What is the actual concern here?
That the non-establishment pres is a ****ing phony?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 30, 2016, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Dr. Price sounds like a swamp drainer.
He's a six term congressman. What's your definition of swamp drainer?
     
subego
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Nov 30, 2016, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
He's a six term congressman. What's your definition of swamp drainer?
I think this may be the problem.

Is it at all possible when the Republican was discussing "draining the swamp" he was referring to... the other party?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 30, 2016, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I think this may be the problem.

Is it at all possible when the Republican was discussing "draining the swamp" he was referring to... the other party?
Still giving Trump the benefit of the doubt? There are quotes mocking Cruz and Clinton for being in the pocket of Goldman Sachs.
     
Chongo
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Nov 30, 2016, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Dr. Price sounds like a swamp drainer.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
He's a six term congressman. What's your definition of swamp drainer?
He has been the main force behind repealing Obamacare. He also has Planned Parenthood's collective panties in a bunch.

Addendum: Chucky doesn't like him.
( Last edited by Chongo; Nov 30, 2016 at 01:57 PM. )
     
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Nov 30, 2016, 01:52 PM
 
This should be fun!
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 30, 2016, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
He has been the main force behind repealing Obamacare. He also has Planned Parenthood's collective panties in a bunch.

Addendum: Chucky doesn't like him.
If your baseline for swampdraining is being against Obamacare, that's a pretty easy hurdle to clear. In that case Mitch McConnel is a swamp drainer..
     
subego
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Dec 1, 2016, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Still giving Trump the benefit of the doubt? There are quotes mocking Cruz and Clinton for being in the pocket of Goldman Sachs.
Dude, the mother****er actuality went out there and somehow became the goddamn ****ing President of the United States. I apparently wasn't giving him enough benefit of the doubt.
     
The Final Dakar
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Dec 1, 2016, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Dude, the mother****er actuality went out there and somehow became the goddamn ****ing President of the United States. I apparently wasn't giving him enough benefit of the doubt.
You're conflating trusting polls with character. Anyway, it's the WWC we underestimated.
     
subego
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Dec 1, 2016, 02:47 PM
 
Trusting the polls has little to do with it. I was the one who stuck with Nate.

With all the benefit of the doubt I gave him during the campaign, and despite how loathsome I find Hillary, I still couldn't get within a million miles of voting for the guy.

I did not expect what amounts to half the country giving him more benefit of the doubt than that. As pivotal as they were in securing the electoral college, the WWF are only a small slice of this overall group.

Going back to my original assertion, my "benefit of the doubt" analysis of the meaning behind "Drain the Swamp" is it was a counter-government slogan meant to be of more use after he lost, because no one, including Trump himself, thought there was any way on God's formerly green Earth he could ****ing become President of the United States.

There are better avenues of attack against Trump and his cabinet than holding him to an invented metric for a meaningless slogan.
     
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Dec 1, 2016, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post

There are better avenues of attack against Trump and his cabinet than holding him to an invented metric for a meaningless slogan.
He is a no win situation with his appointments. If he picks someone from the outside they will be labeled unqualified racist ____phobics. If he picks someone that has experience for the position they are swamp gators.
     
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Dec 1, 2016, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
He is a no win situation with his appointments. If he picks someone from the outside they will be labeled unqualified racist ____phobics. If he picks someone that has experience for the position they are swamp gators.
What if he picked outsiders that aren't racist ___phobics?

Since you conservatives like to downplay the pervasiveness of racism and ___phobics, shouldn't there be more people that aren't racist or ___phobic than those who are?
     
subego
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Dec 1, 2016, 10:03 PM
 
Is this question serious?

Each side judges pervasiveness based on their own definitions of the term.

Conservatives generally have too strict a definition. As long as it fits the proper intersectionality requirements, Liberals generally have too loose a definition.
     
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Dec 1, 2016, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What if he picked outsiders that aren't racist ___phobics?

Since you conservatives like to downplay the pervasiveness of racism and ___phobics, shouldn't there be more people that aren't racist or ___phobic than those who are?
Not in precious snowflake world™.
     
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Dec 1, 2016, 11:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Not in precious snowflake world™.
Christian empathy?

If there are so many non-racist and non ___phobics, why is Trump in a no-win situation?
     
subego
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Dec 2, 2016, 12:17 AM
 
I don't see any lack of people calling his picks racist. I don't think that's the bind he's in.

If he picks someone with experience, then he's not draining the swamp. If he picks someone without experience, then he's appointing someone unqualified for the job.
     
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Dec 2, 2016, 12:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If he picks someone with experience, then he's not draining the swamp. If he picks someone without experience, then he's appointing someone unqualified for the job.
Experience ≠ experience. Experience could mean working for big banks for decades or having worked in regulatory agencies overseeing banks, but evidently the perspective is very different. And if you point is that, e. g. the way the banking system functions right now is against the interest of the people, then you should hire somebody who has experience and an agenda changing it for the better.

Trump made a bit point of Hillary Clinton's closeness to Wall Street, him hiring a Wall Street insider, literally someone who became a billionaire working on Wall Street, is contradictory to what he argued during his campaign. Clinton would have been hammered if she had made a similar hire — and rightfully so.
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Dec 2, 2016, 12:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Dude, the mother****er actuality went out there and somehow became the goddamn ****ing President of the United States. I apparently wasn't giving him enough benefit of the doubt.
That's not what benefit of the doubt means, what you (and most of us other people, myself included) did was underestimate Trump. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt means that when judging someone you start from the assumption that this person has good intentions.
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Dec 2, 2016, 08:34 AM
 
I don't think it was a matter of underestimating Trump per se. I think it was a matter of underestimating the willingness .... no scratch that .... the ENTHUSIASM of the GOP base to collectively "shit the bed" by supporting a candidate who was so manifestly unqualified and temperamentally unfit to be POTUS. Talk about "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Jeez.

OAW
     
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Dec 2, 2016, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If he picks someone with experience, then he's not draining the swamp. If he picks someone without experience, then he's appointing someone unqualified for the job.
That's what Chongo was trying to say, but he couldn't help but slip in some complaining about liberals and labels, muddying his points and derailing any potential for productive conversation.

As OreoCookie said - there certainly could exist someone who works in a regulatory function for Wall Street and has fought for positive change for many years. But I would fully expect democrats to complain about that person being a corrupt Wall Street insider.
     
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Dec 2, 2016, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Christian empathy?
MEME TIME!!!!!
     
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Dec 2, 2016, 11:15 AM
 
Chongo, does this mean you cannot name one person who has experience and is also not a racist, nepotist, or other -ist? Are you saying that's all Donald has to choose from?
     
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Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Chongo, does this mean you cannot name one person who has experience and is also not a racist, nepotist, or other -ist? Are you saying that's all Donald has to choose from?
Sarah Palin for Interior or Energy.
Why don't you and besson3c come up with a list and send it to Pence? I'm sure you two can collaborate and come up with some selections that will make the alt-left happy.
     
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Dec 2, 2016, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I don't think it was a matter of underestimating Trump per se. I think it was a matter of underestimating the willingness .... no scratch that .... the ENTHUSIASM of the GOP base to collectively "shit the bed" by supporting a candidate who was so manifestly unqualified and temperamentally unfit to be POTUS. Talk about "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Jeez.

OAW
Lady and gentlemen, I present the above as an argument which manages not to call anyone racist trash.
     
 
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