[dividend]

ok, i love my alu15 and i try to be nice to my friends and try to convince them to buy mac, but pricing can sometimes make it very difficult to convince people to by mac, compare these two deals:

HP compaq nx7010 1674 euro
15.4 screen wxga
pentium mobiel 1.6 ghz
512 mb ram (max 2 gb), 40 GB hd
combo. 3 x usb
ati 9200 64 mb
wlan, bluetooth, firewire
win xp pro
356*254*35 mm and 2.9 kg
battery: 5 hours

Apple Alu 15 (edu-prices) 2190 euro
15.2 screen
G4 1 ghz
256 mb ram, 60 gb hd
combo
bluetooth, firewire + fw 800, 2x usb
gigabit ethernet + switch for crossed cables
348*241*28 mm and 2.5 kg
battery: 4 hours

price difference: 516 euro

how does one justify the price difference. i try to do it with the following:

looks better, x is more productive and easier to run/adjust, smaller and lighter, bluetooth works better, built-in switch for cross-over cables is really good while on the go, better networking (yes, my expericne is that x networks far easier than anything else)
- extra usb not that important, speed not really relevant (mac might actually be faster), the same for battery.

price for software is not really an issue when people pirate them, but i also say that office for mac is really good, and ilife is too.

anything else i can say to justify 500 euros? ok, this might be a sell-out, but there are always pc laptops being sold-out like this.

thankfull for any help here

[fizzlemynizzle]

No matter how cheap the HP is it can't run Panther.

Crap in crap out.

[BkueKanoodle]

For me the powerbook makes sense for how I work. The Gigabit ethernet is awesome. The ease of hooking up to a external monitor is awesome. (try hooking up a pc laptop to a montior;

PC: Plug in, right click on the desktop choose properties, click settings, click on advance, click on the video card specific driver tab, click extended desktop, choose video resultion. Hit ok Arrange monitors. Click OK. Hope it works, you might have to restart. Do this everytime you plug and unplug the external monitor

Mac; Plug in the monitor. Hit detect displays. Done. The mac then remembers these settings everytime you plug the monitor in.

Firewire. Most PC use a 4 pin firewire. This means they have to carry around extra ac adapters for external hard drives, and have an extra cable to plug in. Not to mention 4 pin firewire ports are much flimsier then 6 pin. Powerbook's have the firewire 800 which is rated much faster then the original firewire spec. You won't find firiewire 800 on most pc Laptops.

Cheap plastic versus Nice aluminum.

When I buy an apple, its not loaded with programs running in the background trying to sell me something (AOL, realplayer, etc) Its not loaded with programs running at startup trying to duplicate functions built in the OS. (Why does toshiba have 3 different Wireless card managmenet programs running?

Virus's are not nearly a problem on the Mac. As a computer professional, I can manage my windows system just fine, but the Mac is my insurance policy. If something were to come out tomorrow that wiped out my Windows Systems, even with good antivirus protection, I know I'd still have atleast one machine immune to it that I could use to get it back up. I can have users send my suspicious files and open them on my machine without worrying about whether or not I'll be reloading it that afternoon


Easier network roaming. I love the fact that I can have predefined Locations in the menu. Makes it much easier when I'm switching between different subnets.


Wake from sleep that works reliably. On a pc laptop I have to open the Unit, press power wait 5-10 seconds and then hope the it works. (windows XP is much better then previous versions of Windows in the iregard, but it still can't touch the Mac.


Expose


Better Screens then HP laptops

Better battery life.

X11 and Virtual PC. I can run just about any program from the 3 dominate OS's (Windows, Linux, and Mac) from one computer. As a Network engineer who used to carry 2 or 3 laptops with him to do this, this has been a godsend)

Linux while certainly usable, is no where near ready in terms of desktop use. (Ok maybe for the geeks, but they generally no jack **** about interface design, or they know the theory, but can't pull it off.) Windows feels clunky.

No Product activation. I hate be treated like a criminal for using something I paid for. (Why sould I have to register with Microsoft to use a laptop that I paid for? Even if its only once, that's not something I'm interested in. Registering with the "authorities" is something you make a sex offender do, not your customers.

There are a lot of little things that make the PB the system for me. In regards to to actual use, pc's and macs are very similar, (Stability, programs, etc) but it's the attention to details in user interacton that wins it for me.

Need More?

[James L]

HYUNDAI:
4 wheels
steering wheel
blue paint
CD stereo
Air conditioning
Power steering
Power locks
4 seats
trunk for storage


BMW:
4 wheels
steering wheel
blue paint
CD stereo
Air conditioning
Power steering
Power locks
4 seats
trunk for storage



hmmm... both the same technically, so what is the difference that justifies the extra $$$$? In my mind it is factors that can't really be put into words. Call it the OSX experience, the ease of use, the comfort, the reliability.

Ironically, this is the information that you can't explain, nor should you have to justify, to others. They get it, or they don't.

All of the points people listed above are valid and true, but until people use the machine they won't get it... once they get it, they won't ever go back!

[BkueKanoodle]

Originally posted by James L:
HYUNDAI:
4 wheels
steering wheel
blue paint
CD stereo
Air conditioning
Power steering
Power locks
4 seats
trunk for storage


BMW:
4 wheels
steering wheel
blue paint
CD stereo
Air conditioning
Power steering
Power locks
4 seats
trunk for storage



hmmm... both the same technically, so what is the difference that justifies the extra $$$$? In my mind it is factors that can't really be put into words. Call it the OSX experience, the ease of use, the comfort, the reliability.

Ironically, this is the information that you can't explain, nor should you have to justify, to others. They get it, or they don't.

All of the points people listed above are valid and true, but until people use the machine they won't get it... once they get it, they won't ever go back!

Hey wait a minute I drive a Hyundai

[Daracle]

I had a good experience with a friend who didnt buy the apple due to its price....
He just got hooked up with a new Seanix running XP....Moved into a new house and just got hooked up with high speed and wanted to go wireless.

We went out and bought a Linksys wireless router., plugged it in and then proceeded to take about 20mins to configure his machines (Laptop and Desktop) to see this wireless connection. Finally after we are done, he looks at me and says "Imagine how long it would take you with your apple"

I went up and turned my airport on and it jumped right on in about 30secs....He couldnt belive it.

[CrackedButter]

Nobody has talked about the software either. The temptation should be more now since Apple will be shipping iLife 04 with the machines.

How much is this worth?

I'm not including the fact that Apple software is virus free, popup free and general crash free.

[NYGEO18]

I know its been said....
but OSX is the difference...It makes the decision a no brainer.
G

[PowerTower Fan]

Originally posted by dividend:
HP compaq nx7010 1674 euro
15.4 screen wxga
pentium mobiel 1.6 ghz
512 mb ram (max 2 gb), 40 GB hd
combo. 3 x usb
ati 9200 64 mb
wlan, bluetooth, firewire
win xp pro
356*254*35 mm and 2.9 kg
battery: 5 hours

Apple Alu 15 (edu-prices) 2190 euro
15.2 screen
G4 1 ghz
256 mb ram, 60 gb hd
combo
bluetooth, firewire + fw 800, 2x usb
gigabit ethernet + switch for crossed cables
348*241*28 mm and 2.5 kg
battery: 4 hours

price difference: 516 euro

Hardware Differences:

-The HP weighs 6.5 pounds vs. 5.6 for the PB (with a laptop, this is a HUGE difference)
-The wireless card it comes with is 802.11B, while the PB can accept an 802.11G
-The video card in the HP is a 9200 while the PB uses a 9600
-As you mentioned, Gigabit Etherent in the PB while 10/100 in the HP
-In your configuration, the PB also has 20Gigs of larger hard drive space
-Both of those battery lives are extremely generous. The PB would get around 2:30 - 3:00 on normal use while the HP would be around 3:30.

On these hardware specs alone, I'd go with the Powerbook. The quality of Apple's laptops are vastly superior than most PC ones and if you could compare them visually side by side, I think you'd have a hard time chosing the HP.

[gator]

You'd have to sell it on either style, or the more intangible aspects that you don't see until you really sit down and use the computer for a while. The best approach I guess would be the whole user experience of OS X and iLife.

The Powerbook does have a much more powerful graphics chip in the Mobility Radeon 9600, in case the person needs that graphics power.

[song]

Originally posted by James L:
HYUNDAI:
4 wheels
steering wheel
blue paint
CD stereo
Air conditioning
Power steering
Power locks
4 seats
trunk for storage


BMW:
4 wheels
steering wheel
blue paint
CD stereo
Air conditioning
Power steering
Power locks
4 seats
trunk for storage



hmmm... both the same technically, so what is the difference that justifies the extra $$$$? In my mind it is factors that can't really be put into words. Call it the OSX experience, the ease of use, the comfort, the reliability.

Ironically, this is the information that you can't explain, nor should you have to justify, to others. They get it, or they don't.

All of the points people listed above are valid and true, but until people use the machine they won't get it... once they get it, they won't ever go back!

Apple can't be compared with BMW. Apple is also just one of computer manufacturer. BMW has a reason to be expenisve, but Apple doesn't.

[SEkker]

"Apple can't be compared with BMW. Apple is also just one of computer manufacturer. BMW has a reason to be expenisve, but Apple doesn't."

A very interesting and completely unsupportable statement. And in this forum, I'm not even going to honor it with anything more than... NOT.

In terms of HP vs Apple notebook --

I consider the build factor to be worth 5-10% difference in price alone, maybe even up to 20%. An example in the US are appliances -- a Maytag will typically garner this same difference for one reason -- it will last longer, hold its value longer, have fewer repairs, etc. AND it will get the clothes about as clean (or cleaner) than any other washing machine. In addition, the arrangement of doors, access for addition of laundry detergent, etc., is superior to most of the manufacturers.

If you need an electronics manufacturer comparison, I'd put Apple for computers where Sony at least used to be for Camcorders -- able to command a higher price because the customer knew the product was going to still be functional beyond the original warranty.

Fast forward to computers. Apple has a long-standing history of the fewest repairs and DOA machines in the industry, according to Consumer Reports. They also have the highest resale value -- because they last longer (i.e. my 4 year old PIsmo runs Panther just fine). A 4 year old PC laptop would choke on most of the latest software.

Finally, the form factor of the HP is really not in the same league as the Apple. The better comparison is a Sony, and the last time I compared feature for feature, the Apple was still cheaper.

The Apple machine will have a better keyboard, better video, probably a better screen (brighter or sharper), lighter form factor, bluetooth, FW800, gigabit ethernet, and comes with iTunes (worth $50 US all on its own). I consider the 60 GB HD and only 256M Ram also better than the 512MB and 40GB HD. It's simple to add some more RAM, difficult to add HD space.

[James L]

Yup

[song]

Originally posted by SEkker:


A very interesting and completely unsupportable statement. And in this forum, I'm not even going to honor it with anything more than... NOT.

Apple used to be compared with BMW "before", but not "now". Their build quality and subsequently quality control are not better than other manufacutures. Other than OSX or Windows argument, Mac may be a different computer, but not a better computer.

Don't get me wrong. I'm also a Mac user as well as a PC user. Someone may have a different opinion as a more faithful mac user than I am.

[TiDual]

Originally posted by song:
Apple used to be compared with BMW "before", but not "now". Their build quality and subsequently quality control are not better than other manufacutures. Other than OSX or Windows argument, Mac may be a different computer, but not a better computer.

I'm not denying that Apple has occasional difficulties (white spot, latches ...) ... just as BMW does (my last 2 cars have been beamers). But you can't be serious in suggesting that an average windows notebook is as well-built as a PowerBook ... I've got the 15"Alu, and I cringe when I look at current windows laptops ... even Sony's feel cheap once you pick them up. Machines that are as well-built (ThinkPads) cost about as much ... and still can't run Panther.

I think one gets a warped perspective on the quantity of problems Macs have by reading these forums: the happy people are silent! As noted above, the industry metrics provide better comparison, and Apple is clearly near the top.

More generally: given how much time many of us spend with our computers (like 1/3 of our lives), I find it odd that people continue to sacrifice the quality, useability and reliability for the sake of a few hundred bucks. This continually astounds me.

[kpne1home]

I bet the resell value on the pb will be higher than the hp also.

[dividend]

hm, good points from all of you, i will take a deeper look and get back with some thoughts.

[nobitacu]

Umm... yea... I don't care if the PC laptops cost a penny, if it doesn't run OS X, I don't want it. Sure, I can run Linux on them which I won't mind using... but once you use OS X, it's hard to go back to anything else. So... no thanks.

Ming

[saranwarp]

After I fried my G4 desktop thanks to some ill-advised extension cord placement in September 2002, I had to use an old PC laptop exclusively until getting a new computer this Christmas...it was hell. The one plus to Windows was Kazaa, and now that I have Acquisition even that's not much of a plus any more. I'm with nobitacu, I'm sticking with Apple and couldn't care less about how much a supposedly comparable PC may cost.

[Link]

Ever hear of poisoned?

I don't care what you say. Apple's build quality is still better than the average PC manufacturer. Take a PB15" out of the box, look at it's cleanness, no sharp edges, cracks, etc.

Take the HP out, you'll find mold lines galore, not to mention magenta, cyan, and blue ports whereas the case is black.

PC companies make the most careless decisions when putting the damn things together.

The fact that macs use different keyboards rather than "Mitsumi generic style A04" (well in keycaps at least), different trackpads (surprise they actually DO have 2 button "boards" but no hardware to support a second button, totally custom cases which usually aren't shared among product sizes (HP and dell have been known to use the same case between a 14" and 16" notebook -- sony too).

The OS is also non standard, I'm betting that a good chunk of that *extra cost* is related to OS X. Since when was windows a unix based OS that's as nicely engineered as OS X?

OS X also = seamless auto detection. One thing that doesn't exist on a PC. Plug in a USB mouse on the PC and watch it go.

Plug in USB mouse on mac, move it.. it moves. PC is still telling you it detected the mouse! OMG how advanced!

Walk into a room with your powerbook that has a wifi network.. little wifi icon in menubar scrolls network name and auto joins it. End of story... do this with a PC laptop

I don't care what PC companies say about battery life however, it's about as bloat a statement as apple's. The powerbook will get anywhere from 2 to 4 hours and the PC anywhere from 45 mins to 2.5 hours. This is common knowledge.

Anyway, push HP to make a well designed aluminum laptop to apple's specs, oh and to top if off have them spend 3 years making a unix based OS like OS X to run on it.

Doubt it's gonna be any cheaper than a powerbook is.

I agree totally with TiDual, If you're going to spend money on something it might as well be something good.

[zanyterp]

Originally posted by song:
Apple used to be compared with BMW "before", but not "now". Their build quality and subsequently quality control are not better than other manufacutures. Other than OSX or Windows argument, Mac may be a different computer, but not a better computer.

perhaps, but for the CPU box, there is apple and alienware for the beamer (or preferred luxury car) of computer cases. but what makes it all worth it is the user experience provided by os x. it makes it all worth it. . .and then some. if alienware could license os x, it could provide some challenge to apple on the market for design, even more so than it does now. ;-) just my $0.00002

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by CrackedButter:
Nobody has talked about the software either. The temptation should be more now since Apple will be shipping iLife 04 with the machines.

How much is this worth?

about $25 USD (dunno what that translates to in Euros).

[neutrino23]

I think this is a hard sell. I understand and agree with most of the posts. I have a 15" Al PB and love it. However, if you want to explain this to a non-Mac user it can be difficult.

What the novice is looking for is some simple, obvious difference. Something like: The Mac has a color screen and windows pcs have black and white screens. The Mac weighs 1 kg and pcs weigh 10 kg. Macs bring you love, windoze pcs bring you herpes. Etc.

Those kinds of differences don't exist.

Both Macs and pcs can be used for email, web surfing, creating text documents, simple word processing, etc. It is the more subtle differences that are important but these take time to discover.

When shopping for almost any product if price is the most important guide then you will likely wind up with junk. The trick is to find the best value. This is the bend in the price/feature curve where adding a small improvement greatly increases the price.

The best way to sell someone on a Mac might be to let them use a very nice one for a month. Remember the guy at zdnet? (David something). He was a windows guy till he got an iMac to review for a month then he became very favorable to Apple. There was another one like that at the Detroit Free Press. A windows journalist pretty much changed to a Mac journalist after extended use of an OS X system.

[John123]

Let me raise a question: why are you trying to "convince" your friends?

Let them play with your laptop for a little while, show them the features, and let them make their OWN decision.

As the saying goes, "Different strokes for different folks." Half the posts in this thread praise OS X as being justification alone for the price difference. Personally, in terms of raw usability, I prefer WIndows 2000 to OS X, although I enjoy some of the nice features that come along with X.

But that's my opinion, based on my usage of both platforms. Different people will have different opinions, and those opinions will be colored by how those people use their computers.

I say rather than trying to do a sales job, tell your friends the pros and the cons and let them decide if it's worth the additional money.

[Lateralus]

Originally posted by Link:
I don't care what you say. Apple's build quality is still better than the average PC manufacturer.

Eh... The latest 'Michael Jackson' iBooks are hurting the validity of that belief.

[dividend]

thanx all for your critical and positive remarks. helps me a lot.

well, i try to encourage people to buy macs because

1. cool company
2. good hardware
3. good software
4. works most of the time much better than xp

and it is not really that difficult to convince people that os x is better than xp; expose, networking, ilife, stability &c are all accepted, but it then comes down to hardware.

hardware-wise macs tend to work better, but people don't really that before something happens. a friend of mine had to work 6-7 hours to get wlan working. it took me less than 2 minutes. and not to mention bluetooth.

but it a matter of prices for laptops that makes people say no. true, speed is not an issue anymore for most people.

selling on better quality i think is impossible - because it is difficult to verify and so on.

people who only work with word still say they need a 15-inch screen, which is preetty silly. games, dv and photoshops requires a larger screen, but otherwise 12 inch is a good size, the rest is just wasted space and wasted money and more to carry.

i normally try to "upgrade" the pc-laptops to mac standards and then the price difference is not that big anymore, except that some are 15 inch and ibooks are 12 inch and lighter. but people don't buy that arguemnt, still buy 15 inch screens that are heavier and more loud.

most people complain about small things here and there witht their pc:s, mac people don't need to. but i find it difficult to convince people.

[John123]

Originally posted by dividend:

and it is not really that difficult to convince people that os x is better than xp; expose, networking, ilife, stability &c are all accepted, but it then comes down to hardware.

Slightly off topic, but I have had fewer crashes under Windows 2000 than I have had kernel panics under OS X. (1 crash in two years under Windows 2000, versus a handful of kernel panics.)

And there's a cheap (like $10) Windows utility that totally rips Apple's expose off and implements it on Windows. Uncool and unethical, but it gets the job done.

[SEkker]

I recently had an Windows-centric employee come to me for a new laptop. I recommended a PB12 because of its excellence in performance and mobility. She insisted she wanted a 15" LCD screen, but I refused to pay for a rev A Apple Al 15 due to the (then) known white spot and other manufacturing issues. We purchased a revB PB12 and I gave her an old CRT monitor to use for a dual display if the screen real estate on the PB12 was not going to be enough.

She has been using the PB12 for ~6 months. We were chatting the other day, and she thanked me for 'making' her buy the 12" -- it's so much lighter than any laptop she's ever used, and the screen is still high quality. She's also only hooked up the external monitor twice for her work.

Right now, I think some windows machines have started to come close to the 'ol 15" Apple machines, but the 12" and 17" PBs are still hard to find in the windows world.

But most folk are going to be similar to this individual -- 'more' must be 'better'.