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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi (Page 4)
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OreoCookie
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Jun 11, 2018, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The writers put in the theme as an indictment of the male gaze.

It was thus intended as a message both to those who suffer from it and those who inflict the damage, whether it be unconsciously or supernerd style.
Again, I would argue that's just you starting from a conclusion and working backwards.
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subego
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Jun 11, 2018, 08:42 PM
 
Based on what?
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 11, 2018, 09:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Based on what?
Based on your preconceptions.
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subego
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Jun 11, 2018, 09:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Based on your preconceptions.
The only applicable preconception I can think of here is the one where directors make choices, such as who they cast, with purpose.

A director who doesn’t cast the role of the sister based on the themes they intend to explore is wasting a huge opportunity.
     
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Jun 11, 2018, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The only applicable preconception I can think of here is the one where directors make choices, such as who they cast, with purpose.
I was talking about your preconceptions, not the director's.
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subego
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Jun 11, 2018, 10:05 PM
 
My preconception is directors make choices with purpose.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 11, 2018, 10:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My preconception is directors make choices with purpose.
You were the one who has been talking about SJW, the male gaze and other things being the motivation for casting choices.
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subego
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Jun 11, 2018, 11:03 PM
 
They made the choice to cast someone significantly more attractive than Tran as her sister.

Why was this decision made?

The most obvious answer is it’s a theme they intended to explore, no?
     
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Jun 11, 2018, 11:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
They made the choice to cast someone significantly more attractive than Tran as her sister.

Why was this decision made?
You again start from your preconceptions that looks were the decisive factor here rather than other things. Tran's styling emphasizes that she is a mechanic/engineer and is more in line with how e. g. women in the military or in professional environments dress. This is part of a larger pattern that spans other women, most notably the main character Rey (have a close look at her clothing, too).
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The most obvious answer is it’s a theme they intended to explore, no?
But depending on your frame of mind, you arrive at a different theme. You apparently think that the theme you see is the theme the writers and director had in mind.
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subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 12:54 AM
 
Provide an alternate explanation for the discrepancy in appearance.

I don’t understand the uniform comment. Rose’s sister wasn’t dressed in a bikini. She was dressed like a space B-17 pilot flying over space Normandy.
     
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Jun 12, 2018, 03:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Provide an alternate explanation for the discrepancy in appearance.

I don’t understand the uniform comment. Rose’s sister wasn’t dressed in a bikini. She was dressed like a space B-17 pilot flying over space Normandy.
I already have: Rose is supposed to look and act like a deckhand, an engineer, and not a pilot. People who spend time in the guts of a ship look different than hot shot pilots. That's why it makes sense to me that Rose is shier and less extroverted than the pilots around her.

When I saw Rose and her sister, I didn't think about “the male gaze” or any such non-sense. I thought that this is a character that many men and women in the audience can identify with, because she shows that shy introverts can be brave.
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subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 07:50 AM
 
I’m talking about the discrepancy in their physical attractiveness.

Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality is the startling beauty of the actress playing her.

This either serves a purpose, or it doesn’t.

I’ve presented my best guess as to the purpose it serves. As I said, I’m open to alternate explanations

If a character’s most memorable quality serves no purpose, then the artist has really, really ****ed things up.
     
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Jun 12, 2018, 08:13 AM
 
I remember her sister lying on grates and kicking a ladder or something to get the remote trigger to fall. And that necklace pendant. Perseverance sticks in my mind as her primary quality. No idea what she looked like.

I remember Rose well.

This is after having seen the movie once when it came out,
     
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Jun 12, 2018, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
When I saw Rose and her sister, I didn't think about “the male gaze” or any such non-sense. I thought that this is a character that many men and women in the audience can identify with, because she shows that shy introverts can be brave.
Rose = Finn. Someone the audience can identify with.
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 02:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I remember her sister lying on grates and kicking a ladder or something to get the remote trigger to fall. And that necklace pendant. Perseverance sticks in my mind as her primary quality. No idea what she looked like.

I remember Rose well.

This is after having seen the movie once when it came out,
A refresher...



She looks like a model. Funny story... she is a model.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 12, 2018, 03:09 PM
 
Most/many actors model on the side.

But, er: That person is a "stunner"? And Rose somehow isn't?

Huh. If you say so.
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 04:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Huh. If you say so.
What I say doesn’t figure into it.

If both these women were full-time models, one would be far more successful than the other.

That observation isn’t based on what I personally find attractive, it’s based on what I’ve observed society finds attractive.

It’s also not really a debatable observation.
     
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Jun 12, 2018, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Most/many actors model on the side.
I may regret joining this discussion, because I quite enjoyed spectating, but...

I would bet most actors in the new Star Wars trilogy do not model on the side, or at least did not do so until they became famous. The contrast to the pretty-people prequels in particular was something I noticed when watching TFA. Subego does have a point that Rose’s sister is an exception.
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The Final Dakar
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Jun 12, 2018, 05:56 PM
 
I'm going to say that wearing a pilot helmet kills attractiveness by a good amount. Not an equalizer, but a deflator
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 12, 2018, 09:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m talking about the discrepancy in their physical attractiveness.

Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality is the startling beauty of the actress playing her.
That's the most memorably quality of these two actresses to you, and this is what shapes your thinking on the matter. I think a large share of people don't think of that primarily when recalling these characters. I certainly don't.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If a character’s most memorable quality serves no purpose, then the artist has really, really ****ed things up.
The fact that you seem to think of beauty first in these actresses is my whole point. The looks of both actresses didn't matter much to me, the character of Rose as a shy but ultimately brave and loving person is what sticks in my mind today. I don't have much of a recollection of her sister, apart from the feeling that she was killed off way earlier than I had expected. But ultimately, her sister's character was forgettable, including her looks, because the story never fleshed out her character.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 12, 2018, 10:03 PM
 
I forgot Rose even had a sister. Hell, i forgot about Rose until I read this thread.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality...
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's the most memorably quality of these two actresses...
Exchanges like this are enormously frustrating.
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I forgot Rose even had a sister. Hell, i forgot about Rose until I read this thread.
She’s probably the best thing about the movie that isn’t a gorilla AT-AT or green titty milk.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 12, 2018, 10:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Exchanges like this are enormously frustrating.
Sure, it is frustrating, because even when you quote me, you leave out the most important bit, which are the two words just after you stop quoting me (in bold):
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's the most memorably quality of these two actresses to you [...]
Just looking at what you quoted makes it seem as if I am contradicting myself. I'm not.

You think of these actresses's looks first, other people, including me don't. That's two different preconceptions.
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subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 11:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Rose’s sister’s
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
these two actresses
Since apparently bold doesn’t have any meaning either.


Rose’s sister is not two actresses.
     
subego
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Jun 12, 2018, 11:22 PM
 
To be clear, there was no attempt to make it look as if you contradicted yourself. My apologies for making it seem that way.

What’s frustrating is I explicitly qualify a statement to be about Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality, and the argument comes back I’m saying this is also Rose’s most memorable quality.

I’m not saying that. I have never said that. I took great care to make sure the subject of that sentence was explicitly declared.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 13, 2018, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Since apparently bold doesn’t have any meaning either.

What’s frustrating is I explicitly qualify a statement to be about Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality, and the argument comes back I’m saying this is also Rose’s most memorable quality.
I don't think I was misreading you. If you had quoted both, the bit of your post that I quoted and my reply in its entirety, it is clear that you were indeed comparing the physical attractiveness of both actresses with one another:
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m talking about the discrepancy in their physical attractiveness.

Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality is the startling beauty of the actress playing her.
You deleted the first sentence in your re-quote and that omits the important context for my reply. So I don't think I am misunderstanding what you wrote.
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subego
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Jun 13, 2018, 12:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's the most memorably quality of these two actresses to you.
I am not saying this is Tran’s most memorable quality. Full stop.
     
subego
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Jun 13, 2018, 03:54 PM
 
@Oreo

And to clarify my frustration, which mea culpa, I didn’t do well initially...

I’m arguing her attractiveness is Rose’s sister’s most memorable quality.

The counter-arguments to this in our discussion mostly consist of examples of how Rose has more memorable qualities.

I can’t do anything with that. It’s a (presumably unintentional) straw man.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 13, 2018 at 04:18 PM. )
     
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Jun 13, 2018, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm going to say that wearing a pilot helmet kills attractiveness by a good amount. Not an equalizer, but a deflator
It’s a balancing act. You can’t just throw one on and assume it’ll work, like with a pair of Aviators. I think they nailed it here, but that’s just my opinion.

They tried to split the baby by giving her two helmets. The standard one, and the padded one underneath. The second does double duty of evoking WWII, and being a more easily digestible look.
     
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Jun 13, 2018, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Subego does have a point that Rose’s sister is an exception.
Thank you.

Ridley could model, but in the stuff I’ve seen her do, she doesn’t look a goddamn thing like she does in the movies.
     
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Jun 13, 2018, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
Not familiar with the website...but the headline caught my eye.

"“These actors aren’t very beautiful, which may deter a lot of Chinese from seeing the recent films,” said Chen Tao, a Chinese Star Wars fan forum manager consulted for the report. “We fans often joke that if Finn were played by Will Smith, Chinese people might be more inclined to watch it — because he’s very handsome.”"
This just reminds me of the YouTuber who lived in China talking about how often he was called "fat," despite only being about 5'10", 180 lbs. He said perfect strangers would wrinkle their nose and tell him he should lose weight.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I remember her sister lying on grates and kicking a ladder or something to get the remote trigger to fall. And that necklace pendant. Perseverance sticks in my mind as her primary quality. No idea what she looked like.
The bizarre thing for me is I didn't recognize the disparity in looks between the siblings until it was pointed out in this thread. Not once in my only viewing of TLJ did I think, "Wow, Rose's sister was much more attractive."

Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Rose = Finn. Someone the audience can identify with.
I think you're right about that, which might make it less palatable when Rose:

1. Was wasted in the whole Canto Bight storyline.
2. "Rescued" Finn due to some of the most misguided writing in Star Wars history.
3. Kissed Finn, which no one bought, finding it more awkward than endearing.

I enjoyed Tran's performance, and I thought she could be a really good character. I just think Rian Johnson ruined her story (along with Finn, Luke, Poe, and Snoke).

This writer summed up my problem with Rose's biggest moment:

Perhaps the most frustrating Rose scene was during the battle on Crait, when she rams into Finn’s ship to stop him from sacrificing himself to destroy a the “Battering Ram Cannon” (or whatever it was called.) Finn didn’t know that Luke or Rey were coming. Finn thought, justifiably so, that he had to die to buy the Resistance valuable minutes.

And Rose is just like nah.

(“What the hell, Rose,” muttered someone in the audience.)

“Why did you do that?” Finn demands.

“You don’t fight to destroy what you hate. You fight to save what you love,” Rose says, or something to that effect. Then she kisses him. Then she promptly passes out.

First, uh, saving what he loved was precisely what what Finn was trying to do. It’s not like Finn just hates battering ram cannons.
     
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Jun 13, 2018, 11:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
This just reminds me of the YouTuber who lived in China talking about how often he was called "fat," despite only being about 5'10", 180 lbs. He said perfect strangers would wrinkle their nose and tell him he should lose weight.
If we add this angle to the discussion, we quickly get into the weeds: having a more multi-ethnic casting certainly has a very different feel for someone who is white or lives in a country where whites are in the majority. The casting makes the movie more approachable to a world-wide audience. Plus, there is the rabbit hole of male and female personality and beauty ideals that I will not get into.
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
The bizarre thing for me is I didn't recognize the disparity in looks between the siblings until it was pointed out in this thread. Not once in my only viewing of TLJ did I think, "Wow, Rose's sister was much more attractive."
Same here: since Rose's sister died so early, I honestly didn't remember much about her other than that she existed and the manner in which she died.
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I think you're right about that, which might make it less palatable when Rose:
As far as the story goes, you are right, and I could add a whole bunch of things here. (Why do they remember when they are down to the last ship that they can just hyperdrive ram the dreadnaught?)
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Jun 13, 2018, 11:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
The contrast to the pretty-people prequels in particular was something I noticed when watching TFA. Subego does have a point that Rose’s sister is an exception.
Perhaps because it is a minor role that you can just fill in with someone from central casting? As an aside: people here make much fuss about how really beautiful Rose's sister is. As someone living in Asia, judging from the photo that subego posted, she's not standing out as much as some people here believe she does.

Also, I think depending on where you are, you have different expectations in terms of beauty: if I compare, say, CSI Miami, where the morgue is littered with models, guys have six packs and broad shoulders, women are in their early to mid 20s, with the people you find in the morgue of a German Tatort, you may get a very skewed impression of what average Americans and average Germans look like. Ditto for sex scenes, by the way.
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Jun 14, 2018, 12:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
As an aside: people here...
What do you mean, “people”?
     
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Jun 14, 2018, 01:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What do you mean, “people”?
Not one thing escapes you
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Jun 14, 2018, 04:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Perhaps because it is a minor role that you can just fill in with someone from central casting?
Except that actress isn't a twenty-something Californian of Asian descent from central casting, she appears to have a movie career in her native Vietnam (with reservations that I don't read Vietnamese, and she might be "Girl #3" in all those movies). Now, it could be someone who Rian Johnson is friends with, it could be someone who was in the US anyway to promote something and this was done as a cross-promotion thing, it could be the local equivalent of Daniel Craig being a stormtrooper, but it could also be what subego thinks. For all its flaws, TLJ is not a movie that leaves the details to chance.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
As an aside: people here make much fuss about how really beautiful Rose's sister is. As someone living in Asia, judging from the photo that subego posted, she's not standing out as much as some people here believe she does.
I know. I didn't react when I saw her directly in the movie, but I can see the argument here.

Also, I think depending on where you are, you have different expectations in terms of beauty: if I compare, say, CSI Miami, where the morgue is littered with models, guys have six packs and broad shoulders, women are in their early to mid 20s, with the people you find in the morgue of a German Tatort, you may get a very skewed impression of what average Americans and average Germans look like. Ditto for sex scenes, by the way.
What sticks in my mind is what people look like in TFA and TLJ compared to, in particular, the prequels (but also to the original trilogy to some extent). I don't think that that is a mistake - I think that they tried to cast more everyday people, with the only real exception is the resident flyboy, who has more misses than hits for the rebellion so far. Rose's sister is a big exception to this, and I wonder why.
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Jun 14, 2018, 08:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Except that actress isn't a twenty-something Californian of Asian descent from central casting, she appears to have a movie career in her native Vietnam (with reservations that I don't read Vietnamese, and she might be "Girl #3" in all those movies). Now, it could be someone who Rian Johnson is friends with, it could be someone who was in the US anyway to promote something and this was done as a cross-promotion thing, it could be the local equivalent of Daniel Craig being a stormtrooper, but it could also be what subego thinks. For all its flaws, TLJ is not a movie that leaves the details to chance.
I of course didn't mean to imply that I knew she was from central casting, I just had the impression that she could be. I have no idea about the back story here, but you are right, it might as simple as her being someone with a little pull who wanted a quasi-cameo in a Star Wars movie.
Originally Posted by P View Post
What sticks in my mind is what people look like in TFA and TLJ compared to, in particular, the prequels (but also to the original trilogy to some extent). I don't think that that is a mistake - I think that they tried to cast more everyday people, with the only real exception is the resident flyboy, who has more misses than hits for the rebellion so far. Rose's sister is a big exception to this, and I wonder why.
No idea, but my feeling is that the story behind it is far less interesting and significant than we expect it to be. Rose's sister is not an important character and only gets to live for the first few minutes.

The more interesting aspect here is Poe. That part of the story I enjoy very much, because it goes against the grain of well-established action movie logic, just like the scene that to me made Episode 3 (I mean Episode 6): when Luke is winning against the emperor in the duel, instead of killing him, he lays down his weapon. Genius. In the same vein, Poe does what an action hero is “supposed to do”, but gets taught the important lesson that sometimes the war is more important than the battle and that sometimes some prices are too high to pay.
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Jun 15, 2018, 03:11 AM
 
I‘m with Oreo.
     
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Jun 15, 2018, 06:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The more interesting aspect here is Poe. That part of the story I enjoy very much, because it goes against the grain of well-established action movie logic, just like the scene that to me made Episode 3 (I mean Episode 6): when Luke is winning against the emperor in the duel, instead of killing him, he lays down his weapon. Genius. In the same vein, Poe does what an action hero is “supposed to do”, but gets taught the important lesson that sometimes the war is more important than the battle and that sometimes some prices are too high to pay.
I agree with this, which is also why I'm so split on TLJ. I really like subverting the tropes, but the story has so many holes.
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Jun 15, 2018, 06:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I agree with this, which is also why I'm so split on TLJ. I really like subverting the tropes, but the story has so many holes.
I agree. To me episode 8 did not seem to mesh with episode 7. Take the (early) death of the emperor as an example: he is built up as the mega villain, but is killed with relative ease at by Kylo Ren. I had the impression that the writers of episode 7 put a lot of set pieces on the board and the writers of episode 8 disagreed with the rules of the game and brushed off the majority of the pieces in one fell swoop. Also the chase for the hacker/code breaker seemed bolted on and ultimately led nowhere.

However, none of the issues I have with the movies have to do with diversity or “SWJs running amok”, it is just standard problems of movie making and (bad) writing.

Plus, the writers nail a lot of the interaction between characters, breaking with tropes and IMHO the confrontation between Kylo Ren and Luke Skywalker.
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Jun 15, 2018, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No idea, but my feeling is that the story behind it is far less interesting and significant than we expect it to be. Rose's sister is not an important character and only gets to live for the first few minutes.
As in, her appearance is one of the few things the audience is given time to register before she becomes space goo.

She’s not important as an individual, but is absolutely pivotal to Rose’s character development.
     
subego
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Jun 15, 2018, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
it might as simple as her being someone with a little pull who wanted a quasi-cameo in a Star Wars movie.
This is a totally plausible reason why she was cast. Or that the producers wanted to shore-up the eroding Asian market share.

The thing is, to an American audience, for whom the movie was ostensibly made, that's absolutely meaningless. The reason may as well not exist.

If meaning is not provided for a conscious choice like that, the audience will provide it. A straightforward meaning to be drawn is the trope of the “good looking vs. the ugly sister”.

Note, again, this is Hollywood “ugly”. To give another example, the two women from my generation who get cast as the “ugly girl” are Janeane Garafolo and Lili Taylor. Neither of them (or Tran for that matter) are actually ugly. Garafolo is “ugly” because they threw her up against Uma Thurman.
     
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Jun 15, 2018, 11:29 AM
 
I find it pretty hilarious the only thing Solo managed to do was get people to rip twice as hard on TLJ.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 15, 2018, 01:47 PM
 
Just a note:

Both Episode 7 and 8 made about 54% of their money abroad.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 15, 2018, 01:49 PM
 
Also, my initial reaction when i heard that Disney had taken the Star Wars franchise out of Lucas’s hands was gratitude.

Here’s why I was right:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/...-it-was-awful/
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 16, 2018, 12:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The thing is, to an American audience, for whom the movie was ostensibly made, that's absolutely meaningless. The reason may as well not exist.
Hollywood movies are all made for global audiences these days, and both, casting and story are shaped by that these days. Hollywood is about money, and the markets outside of the US are ginormous — especially China. (That's why quite a few movies like Independence Day 2 feature e. g. Chinese so prominently — it is so that they can gain access to the Chinese market.)
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If meaning is not provided for a conscious choice like that, the audience will provide it. A straightforward meaning to be drawn is the trope of the “good looking vs. the ugly sister”.
Again, I'd argue most people didn't think much about this (because Rose's sister was a forgettable character), and the meaning you draw is based on your preconceptions.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Note, again, this is Hollywood “ugly”. To give another example, the two women from my generation who get cast as the “ugly girl” are Janeane Garafolo and Lili Taylor. Neither of them (or Tran for that matter) are actually ugly. Garafolo is “ugly” because they threw her up against Uma Thurman.
I think we have just a very different way of thinking: when I see Garafolo in a movie, I don't think “Oh, look, they cast her as the ugly girl again!”
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Jun 16, 2018, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As in, her appearance is one of the few things the audience is given time to register before she becomes space goo.
Her looks didn't register with me and many others at all, the only detail I remember about her is her pendant and that she died.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
She’s not important as an individual, but is absolutely pivotal to Rose’s character development.
I didn't think so at the time and don't think so now. The writers could have just made the pilot Green 4 instead of Rose's sister, and Rose's sister could have equally well died off-screen — it wouldn't have made a big difference to how the story developed. If anything, I think it would have made the movie a bit better, because it would have avoided shifting the audience's to an unimportant detail.
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Jun 16, 2018, 09:45 AM
 
All movies are made with an eye on the international markets, but not all movies do well there. Star Trek does notably worse than Star Wars, for instance.

Also note that the studio’s cut of the box office is much smaller in China than it is in the US or Europe.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Jun 16, 2018, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Her looks didn't register with me and many others at all, the only detail I remember about her is her pendant and that she died.
“This is one of the few things the audience is given times to register” does not claim or imply all members registered it. It’s a given that audience reaction isn’t monolithic. With the person I watched it with, it didn’t even register she was Rose’s sister.

The word “few” in that sentence is an explicit statement there are other things the audience is given time to register, such as her pendant, or her death.

I don’t know what point I’m supposed to derive from your statement.
     
 
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