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So confused!!! Audio Engineer can't decide
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rupis33
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Jul 28, 2003, 07:33 PM
 
Hello, I am new to the site, but have spent quite a few nights reading posts untill my eyes went cross. I have learned a lot from this site so far, and I know the hot topic and quickly getting old topic is which to get the cream of the crop G4 for a reduced price or go for the G5's. Well, to make this quick,, I am a DJ/Producer going to start my studio. I have $2500 right now, and can finance another $2500 with no interest for a year. Perfect time to start the project studio. I still can't tell what is my better option. I hear what people are saying about the first rev of the G5, and that the G4 are at an all time low. I plan to use Reason, Live, and a recording/editing software (Logic,Performer) Will the dual G4 work better for recording and plugins than a 1.8 G5. I am hearing that waiting for the second set of G5's to come out, but how long can one put off actually diving in and getting my feet wet. I like how the G5 is supposedly a lot quieter than the G4, with the new drives and PCI slots,, but how long will it take the audio companies to make cards to utilize the new PCIX slots. And the one thing I don't hear many people talking about are the advantages to 64 bit processing. Please if anyone out there is an audio guy, please help me out. I just want to do it right the first time. Thanks,, and sorry such a long winded post. I promise this is the first and last time for it.

     
Ramey Skies
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Jul 28, 2003, 08:39 PM
 
I am not an audio engineer but I would go with the G5 because...

1. New peripherals will make use of the PCIX and AGP 8X slots.
2. 64 bits allows you to address more memory.
3. You may not need it today, but what about next month / year ?
4. It's a chunk of change either way, invest for the future.

Hope this helps and good luck with your enterprise!
     
mikemako
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Jul 28, 2003, 08:56 PM
 
I'd say to get a reduced price dual processor G4.. then in a year or two get a mid -high range G5 at 3GHz dual processor or higher (once G5 has had a revision).
My Computer: MacBook Pro 2GHz, Mac OS X 10.4.5
     
awcopus
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Jul 28, 2003, 09:55 PM
 
rupis, when is it mission critical that you get this computer? If "now", get a dual 1.42 G4 from http://www.smalldog.com. This will cover you for the next 12 months. Plenty of seasoned audio pros I know are extremely productive with lesser G4s than this machine. Get this rig and get to work making money so you can eventually buy into a second/third generation G5 that's more mature, has more third party cards to support your work, et cetera.

You place an order for a G5 tonight, you'll be receiving it some time in September. Can you wait that long? Even if you can, I'd wait for reasons already mentioned.

For video or audio work, it does not pay to be a spec-freak. It's less important to be on the cutting edge of technology and more important to have a robust, reliable solution. The dual 1.42 G4 is solid and it's extremely affordable. The G5 is going to be that way in a year. It's an open question as to what the first gen of this machine will be like for users. My guess is that the machines will have extremely fast real-world performance, will blow the G4 out of the water when running apps (especially when optimized to take advantage of the G5).

Still, I am thrilled with my recently acquired dual 1.42 G4. I'll happily get a more refined, faster version of the G5 in a year or so, at a more compelling price point, too.

64 bit, for all practical purposes, just means the machine can address more memory than 32 bit systems. My dual 1.42 is maxed out with 2GB of RAM. You can quadruple that with the G5. Awesome!

Good luck!
     
rupis33  (op)
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Jul 29, 2003, 12:31 AM
 
Thank you for the feed back fellas. I am a PC guy, my father has always used Mac for his business. Are the first generation computer put out by apple really that problematic? I am not a up and running producer yet. I have been doing my research, I waited for OSX to get up and running, allowing the audio software companies to catch up. I am willing to wait untill september if the first G5's are stable.

Is the dual G4 1.42 that you got really as loud as they say it is? Cause I don't want to have to drop the $$ I saved on the G4 on a custom box to keep it quite. I am ready to just say the hell with it go with the new generation and hope that the catch up with the software and hardware are affordable and speedy.

Last quetion, I promised to make this less wordy than the first on. Can anyone give advise on the pros and cons of each audio app. (Logic, Cubase SX, DP4)

Thanks again for the advise,, I have found a home
     
idyll
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Jul 29, 2003, 02:50 AM
 
The first generation computers put out by Apple aren't really as problematic as people make them out to be.. I've bought a few first generation goodies from Apple and have not encountered any problems with one of them!

I'd recommend waiting three weeks to see a few of the benchmarks on the new G5 and then decide. However, if you cannot do so, I'd still recommend getting the G5 over the G4. It is a much better investment.
     
docholiday
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Jul 29, 2003, 03:18 AM
 
Apple has had plenty of time to test the G5 system in house. I am sure that they will have it running very well...

I would recommend getting a G5. It's a system that you can utilize (and add modern peripherals to) for several years to come.
It's sound chips are far superior to those of the G4 (also it's audio device connectivity). Furthermore, the G5 would easily beat the G4 in terms of performance in a program like logic.

If you have the money: Go with the G5, and you can't go wrong.

Good luck making a decision,
Doc Holiday
     
awcopus
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Jul 29, 2003, 09:09 AM
 
Honestly, in your position, I would simply wait. You've been doing the right thing in waiting for OSX to get hardware and software support. You may as well wait for the G5 to emerge and get reviewed so that you can make your purchase with more information than is currently available. You don't seem to be in a rush, just eager. So wait. The G5 is worth waiting for.

Is a 250 GB drive going to provide you with enough storage for your work? That's the largest your internal scratch disc can be. Wasn't big enough for me, but might be fine for you.

BTW, audio engineers who use the 1.42 don't hear it because they put it in a cabinet under their desks and/or wear monitoring headphones that pretty much render any noise it makes unnotibeable. Remember, the G5 doesn't run "silentlly", just quieter than the MDDs. Thing is, most of the time you'll be wearing HPs like the Sennheiser HD280s, full ear-covering jobs that really knock external sound levels down.

Sorry I can't list pros and cons on those Apps. Can say that most of my friends work with Logic primarily, but also keep other apps around for specific reasons.

p.s., If you're getting into this professionally, why don't you call the manufacturers of hardware cards that you would want to use and ask them about their plans vis-a-vis ramping their products up for PCI-X compatibility? Also, you should look up the addresses of some audio engineering professional companies in your area and ask them what Macs they are using and how they deal with sound issues and, of course, what they think of the G5 (how costly it will be for them to replace legacy systems dependent on PCI hardware, etc.). Let your fingers do the walking in the phonebook as well as the internet. And then share with us what you find out.
     
foobars
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Jul 29, 2003, 09:14 AM
 
I'd go G4 since you're gonna need the extra disk space... or wind up spending a good deal on some sort of external array with your G5.
     
G-mac
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Jul 29, 2003, 10:53 AM
 
If you have the time, I'd wait for the G5s to emerge before plunging into a purchase. They may be cracked up to be all they've been touted as and more (superfast, silent, stable), or they could be a big dissapointment (slow, loud, buggy). If you need an immediate solution and would like to save cash, I think the Dual 1.42 could serve you just fine for a few years. You can invest any leftover money back into your business.

Personally, I would go for the Dual 1.42 and wait a year or so for faster, more refined G5s. I'd use the extra money for software, peripherals, expansion, and business costs. The G5 will most likely be fast, but do you truly need all that speed or will the Dual be good enough? Keep searching these forums. I know there are a good number of audiophiles that frequent these forums.

Regarding noise, I've got a SP 1.25 currently and it's actually very quiet. My PowerBook G4 seemed to have been much louder when in use. The new fans in the G4s make them much more silent. Plus, if you've got great headphones or a sound system running, chances are you'll barely hear it anyway.

Good luck with your biz and Mac search and welcome to the forums!
     
silverlode
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Jul 29, 2003, 10:58 AM
 
First, some questions/rebuttals of earlier posts:

docholiday: What makes you think that the G5's "sound chips are far superior to those of the G4"? I haven't seen this info anywhere. It does have optical audio in and out, which is amazing, but I haven't seen anywhere that the actual circuitry has been improved.

docholiday: "the G5 would easily beat the G4 in terms of performance in a program like logic." This may be true, but what we're not sure about is whether it'll beat a daul G4 machine when running three apps simultaneously, like Logic, Reason, and Live. Dual processors make a huge difference when running multiple apps at the same time. We'll have to wait and see how the 1.8 G5 measures up.

Let's talk about the apps in question. All of the apps you mentioned (logic, Cubase, DP) have loyal followings, and people who will trumpet their virtues. With Live and Reason, you're going to need rock-solid ReWire implementation. I don't know about DP, but Logic and ProTools LE have good ReWire functionality. I am a ProTools LE user. I love the fact that I can go to a professional studio anywhere in town, lay down some drums, and then bring the session home and open it right up on my machine without any translation. Then I can take my session back to the studio for more work, or mixing. ProTools is ubiquitous. Very few pro studios have anything else, although it seems Logic is showing up more and more. It seems like MOTU makes great hardware, but I'm not too sure about DP. They were the last of the bunch to release an OSX version, so they're probably behind in development. I don't know much about anything Steinberg. Here's the pros/cons as I see them:

ProTools PROS: it's everywhere. great ReWire implementation. Simple, useful interface. CONS: friggin' Digidesign makes you use their hardware...you're locked into the mBox, 001, or 002 interfaces. No VST or AU support.

Logic PROS: owned by Apple!...means great and continued integrated development...fast updates, etc. Good ReWire implementation. Supports AU. CONS: not in every pro studio. I've heard that the interface is complicated...steep learning curve.

DP PROS: MOTU has been around for a very long time. I've heard it said that DP has the best sounding internal mixer...can't confirm. CONS: Kind of isolated...DP has been Mac-only since day one. Not too sure about ReWire. DP MIDI system is whacked. Late development.

If I were you I'd get the G4. You'll then have that much more for other gear, like microphones, preamps, midi controllers, perhaps a MIDI timepiece, near-field monitors, etc. The G4 will serve you well for a long time. The best thing you could do, though, is wait for 1.8 G5 real-world benchmarks...then decide.

Silverlode.
( Last edited by silverlode; Jul 30, 2003 at 12:06 PM. )
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CubeWannaB
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Jul 29, 2003, 11:42 AM
 
Originally posted by foobars:
I'd go G4 since you're gonna need the extra disk space... or wind up spending a good deal on some sort of external array with your G5.
That's just silly. 160GB should be enough for audio - that's about 200 hours of audio. In a few months you'll be able to get a 250GB SATA HD and a grand total of about 500 hours of audio, more than enough for any audio project.

You video kids really need to get over the two hard drive thing. I bet you were the same guys whining that the g3 didn't have a diskette drive.

My advice to anyone looking for suggestions on what mac to buy is don't look for it here. The MacNN forums are full of fear mongers and old school Apple geeks resistant to change.
( Last edited by CubeWannaB; Jul 29, 2003 at 12:08 PM. )
     
CubeWannaB
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Jul 29, 2003, 12:04 PM
 
Here's my advice. I run a small studio out of my home so you might think that I have some practical experience.

The 1.8ghz as configured is the machine I'd get, for the 900mhz system bus alone. Also, PCI-X will probably make the next generation of ProTools hardware cheaper and more powerful. Imagine not having to upgrade your machine for four or five years because you can just pop in the latest PCI-X ProTools card. That's not an option with the G4.

Of course I'd be using Logic instead of ProTools but the point is the same.

I wouldn't worry about noise level. If you're serious about having a studio you're going to have to put the box in a different room anyways. I've got my box shoved in a closet with cables snaking out to my desk.

One thing I'm not sure about from your post is whether the $5k you have available is for your Mac alone or the whole studio. If it's the whole studio then I'd guess your budget is going to be tight, unless you have some existing equipment. The G4 may be the the only option that fits your budget.

If you are going to need to stretch that budget to include other equipment I've got some tips. I started my place out with just two mics and the built in audio jack for recording. So I could only do two tracks at once. I picked up a small behrenger mixer that was basically just to run the mics and allow monitoring. I picked up my first mics and cables from one of the bigger DJ places in town. They weren't advertising that they had used equipment for sale, I just asked. They dig it because it might help them get the latest stuff and you get a good deal. I got some Shure 57s which I prefer to the 58s for the studio.

The latest mics I got were non-Shure mics by Marshall electronics (not the guitar company). I've been very happy with them and at a much more reasonable price than even the used Shure stuff it might be something you'd like to check out, especially in the begining.

Good luck.
     
awcopus
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Jul 29, 2003, 12:30 PM
 
Originally posted by CubeWannaB:
My advice to anyone looking for suggestions on what mac to buy is don't look for it here. The MacNN forums are full of fear mongers and old school Apple geeks resistant to change.
My advice to you is to chill out. We're all on the same side. I haven't read anything "fearful" or "resistant to change" in the comments here. Just thoughtful feedback.

And just what the hell is the rush to order a computer that recent purchasers have noted won't be shipping until the middle/end of September?

If he has the time to wait for a G5, he can and should wait. It's an amazing machine. I salivate over its front side bus speeds.

If he had to bust a move today, there are solid dual G4 options right now that are very affordable, very effective solutions that will serve him well for a while.

But by all means you go and order your G5, CubeWannaBe. You place that order and sit there.... patiently..... doing nothing.... while other people earn their living using actual tools over here in the real world.

P.S. I agree with you that HD needs for pure audio work are far less strenous than they are in the video realm. An extra 250gb HD probably would be enough for most audio engineering needs.
     
rupis33  (op)
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Jul 29, 2003, 02:33 PM
 
Thank you all so much. I think I am going to sit tight untill people get there hands on the G5. I didn't mean for my post to get anyone upset with one another. To be more specific about my studio needs. I plan to start it off as a music production suite. Running Reason, Live, and using a Midi-Man Radium controller. I was going to get the M-Audio BX-8 stuido monitors. I know there is much better out there, but can't afford that yet. I heard the BX-8's and they are nice, they pump the low end. Which is good for my electronic style music, I can tell they are a bit bright, but nothing a spectral analyzer can't fix. So, with the G4/G5, extra ram, a audio only hard drive, the software and controller and the monitors, puts me at my $5000 budget. I figure I can take my time, get more familiar with the software, and with the Mac way of doing things. Then by the time I am ready for more of a challange I can afford some mics, and Logic or something like it. That is the plan. I want it to be my instrument but can whore it out to make $$$


     
Commodus
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Jul 29, 2003, 06:56 PM
 
My inclination is to go with the G5. Did you see the WWDC keynote test where they compared Logic on a G5 to Cubase on a dual-Xeon system? That was obviously an extreme test, but the fact was that the G5 was able to handle lots of simultaneous tracks without even blinking. Even if this was a skewed test it still seems impressive.

As an audio person, the sheer volume of space probably doesn't matter as much to you as the speed of access to that volume, and that's where the G5 would have the edge. Serial ATA has a little bit of extra headroom that may help out.

You can wait until September if you'd like, of course, and it might not be a bad idea (not the least of which is the fact that you may be able to squeak out a cheaper upgrade to OS X Panther). What I've heard from people who've sampled G5s is that... well, they haven't had any immediate problems. No sudden kernel panics or apps unexpectedly quitting. As for noise, MacBidouille had someone go to a FNAC store and noted that you had to put your ear right up to the case to hear the fans during moderate use. That's a good sign even if you factor in potential store background noise.
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Superchicken
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Jul 29, 2003, 09:22 PM
 
a 1.6Ghz G5 should out profform a Dual 1.4Ghz G4. Even the low end G5 is more future proof than the top end G4.
     
MattiMattMatt
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Jul 29, 2003, 09:31 PM
 
Stuff about me: I've had a lot of experience in music and audio production, write about this crap for magazines when I have the time, and am a lousy speller:

First, debunking some falacies stated above:

NOT TRUE about the headphones -- most of the time you'll be using active nearfield monitors.

NOT TRUE about DP having the best souding internal mixer (they're all fine, with slight preferences/differences here and there, often based on hardware issues. I could point you to tons of stuff about this, but it would just be a waste of time -- tiny differences in software summing does not keep you up at night, and is not the problem it used to be).

NOT TRUE about 160GB = 200 hours of audio. In audio production, audio may include 1) many simultaneous tracks (multitrack), not just two tracks as in stereo, and 2) higher resolutions that require more storage than garden variety red book audio CDs. In fact, in pro studios, engineers often use single firewire drives in the way they used to use a roll of tape -- the project gets recorded and delivered on the drive (added to client's cost -- no more than tape, btw). External Firewire drives will become a part of your life.

NOT TRUE that you will buy a ProTools PCI card, this generation or next. It's just not your thing. For now, you can get pretty much everything you want at M-Audio: Reason. Live, Spectrasonics, etc. Then, you'll get Logic (not DP -- the stuff about Logic above is outdated -- people like you buy and love Logic) and a MOTU 828 MK II or RME Multiface for Audio I/O. Two things to keep in mind from the beginning: consider Edirol controllers (Apple recently chose Edirol controllers, I believe, NOT M-Audio controllers, to demo REASON in their stores), and be wary of M-audio MIDI drivers.

NOT TRUE that you have to worry about the noise of the G5 (it's low enough that you can live with it for now), and if it's a problem, you can stick your mic, singer, and bongo player in an adjacent room and run an audio cable to your computer. Bathrooms work fine, and have built in reverb. As I recall, the mic in the bathroom in Def Jam's studio on Elizabeth street wasn't just to hear the **** coming out of Russel and Lyor. Stepping up a level, you may want to eventually buy a soundproofing box (e.g. Raxxess is decent bang for the buck) or a Gefen Extender (a more elegant and often costly system used to banish noisy hardware out of sight, sound, and mind).

NOT TRUE that 5k-7k is not enough bucks for a great studio with a G5. For 6K, you'll have a serious studio. George Michael spent a million bucks on a 16-track hard-drive recording system (maxed out synclavier, circa a while ago), that is not as good as an iMac.

A lot of the reluctance to buy G5s in the audio community has to do with investments in pre-existing software that may be orphaned by the new chip, or an OS X-only machine. You will not have that problem, since you will only buy stuff that would work on the G5 and OS X. As in computer-based audio, as in JetBlue, as in life itself: starting from scratch has its advantages.

In audio recording, speed is a necessity not a luxury, and WILL be an issue for you for many reasons ("latency," number of plug-ins, plug-in quality (good plug-ins are processor hogs), number of simultaneous tracks, etc.). This would argue FOR the G5 over the G4.

In fact, G4s typically require 3rd party cards (either TDM for ProTools or DSP from Mackie or TC Electronics) to help record and process multiple streams of audio. Many in the industry anticipate, hope, and pray that the speed of the G5 will make these cards and their expense unneccessary (this also argues for the DUAL G5, even given your budget!)

Of course, those who express caution over version 1 rev a are wise -- there is a lot to still argue for the G4, not the least of which is that the G5 may break software that currently works just fine on the G4. However, even with potential problems, I would lean towards the G5 because, as compared to typical rev a Macs, this one represents a MAJOR jump worth the gamble. The G5 typically has audio folks spewing fluids from every orifice on their bodies.

Since you're in no actual rush, I agree with those who advise waiting to at least see some feedback from the bleeding-edgers. Although I have heard of a change in RAM spec for rev b of the G5 in the works, I don't think it's that big of a deal. In fact, if you get one, I'll get one. Hell, I'll probably get one anyway.

-MattiMattMatt
( Last edited by MattiMattMatt; Jul 30, 2003 at 12:09 AM. )
     
rupis33  (op)
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Jul 30, 2003, 12:39 AM
 
Originally posted by MattiMattMatt:
Stuff about me: I've had a lot of experience in music and audio production, write about this crap for magazines when I have the time, and am a lousy speller:

First, debunking some falacies stated above:

NOT TRUE about the headphones -- most of the time you'll be using active nearfield monitors.

NOT TRUE about DP having the best souding internal mixer (they're all fine, with slight preferences/differences here and there, often based on hardware issues. I could point you to tons of stuff about this, but it would just be a waste of time -- tiny differences in software summing does not keep you up at night, and is not the problem it used to be).

NOT TRUE about 160GB = 200 hours of audio. In audio production, audio may include 1) many simultaneous tracks (multitrack), not just two tracks as in stereo, and 2) higher resolutions that require more storage than garden variety red book audio CDs. In fact, in pro studios, engineers often use single firewire drives in the way they used to use a roll of tape -- the project gets recorded and delivered on the drive (added to client's cost -- no more than tape, btw). External Firewire drives will become a part of your life.

NOT TRUE that you will buy a ProTools PCI card, this generation or next. It's just not your thing. For now, you can get pretty much everything you want at M-Audio: Reason. Live, Spectrasonics, etc. Then, you'll get Logic (not DP -- the stuff about Logic above is outdated -- people like you buy and love Logic) and a MOTU 828 MK II or RME Multiface for Audio I/O. Two things to keep in mind from the beginning: consider Edirol controllers (Apple recently chose Edirol controllers, I believe, NOT M-Audio controllers, to demo REASON in their stores), and be wary of M-audio MIDI drivers.

NOT TRUE that you have to worry about the noise of the G5 (it's low enough that you can live with it for now), and if it's a problem, you can stick your mic, singer, and bongo player in an adjacent room and run an audio cable to your computer. Bathrooms work fine, and have built in reverb. As I recall, the mic in the bathroom in Def Jam's studio on Elizabeth street wasn't just to hear the **** coming out of Russel and Lyor. Stepping up a level, you may want to eventually buy a soundproofing box (e.g. Raxxess is decent bang for the buck) or a Gefen Extender (a more elegant and often costly system used to banish noisy hardware out of sight, sound, and mind).

NOT TRUE that 5k-7k is not enough bucks for a great studio with a G5. For 6K, you'll have a serious studio. George Michael spent a million bucks on a 16-track hard-drive recording system (maxed out synclavier, circa a while ago), that is not as good as an iMac.

A lot of the reluctance to buy G5s in the audio community has to do with investments in pre-existing software that may be orphaned by the new chip, or an OS X-only machine. You will not have that problem, since you will only buy stuff that would work on the G5 and OS X. As in computer-based audio, as in JetBlue, as in life itself: starting from scratch has its advantages.

In audio recording, speed is a necessity not a luxury, and WILL be an issue for you for many reasons ("latency," number of plug-ins, plug-in quality (good plug-ins are processor hogs), number of simultaneous tracks, etc.). This would argue FOR the G5 over the G4.

In fact, G4s typically require 3rd party cards (either TDM for ProTools or DSP from Mackie or TC Electronics) to help record and process multiple streams of audio. Many in the industry anticipate, hope, and pray that the speed of the G5 will make these cards and their expense unneccessary (this also argues for the DUAL G5, even given your budget!)

Of course, those who express caution over version 1 rev a are wise -- there is a lot to still argue for the G4, not the least of which is that the G5 may break software that currently works just fine on the G4. However, even with potential problems, I would lean towards the G5 because, as compared to typical rev a Macs, this one represents a MAJOR jump worth the gamble. The G5 typically has audio folks spewing fluids from every orifice on their bodies.

Since you're in no actual rush, I agree with those who advise waiting to at least see some feedback from the bleeding-edgers. Although I have heard of a change in RAM spec for rev b of the G5 in the works, I don't think it's that big of a deal. In fact, if you get one, I'll get one. Hell, I'll probably get one anyway.

-MattiMattMatt
That was the best advise I have been given by ANYONE in the past 18 months,,, I have talked to Sweetwater, Wavedigital, any and everyone I know that has there hand in this business. You are the man! I would love to hear more about what you do? I am an audio engineer in DC at the moment. I played at raves and clubs back in college, but now want to produce, not mix for teens on drugs. I hope to dive into the big pool and go to LA at the end of the year. Thank you so much for the "audio" advise I needed. How was my choice of gear? I want a synth, but just can't overcome the advantages of the softsynth. Thanks again, and I hope to learn more.

Luke Luquasious
     
Thinine
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Jul 30, 2003, 02:04 AM
 
Yeah, people who know what they're doing rock.
     
Superchicken
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Jul 30, 2003, 02:54 AM
 
Originally posted by Thinine:
Yeah, people who know what they're doing rock.
Most quoteable quote in the power mac forum in a long time.
haha

GO FOR THE G5!

Seriously Apple knows they're gona sell a wack of these and they wouldn't wanna make a bad impression. And it's not like they havn't had extra time to work on it, look at the MDD case... obviously Ives wasn't JUST busy on the power book
     
booboo
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Jul 31, 2003, 06:23 PM
 
Originally posted by rupis33:


I'm also an audio engineer/musician.

I say go for a G5 for the following reasons.

Memory bandwidth: a real limitation in the current architecture, and also the reason why the original 400 MHz TiBooks performed better with audio applications than the 667MHz models that superseded them.

Apple made some serious booboos with the first generation of G4 MDD's in terms of the noise that these machines generated (absolutely horrendous from a musician's point of view, the high pitch whine wavering between - what was it F# and G? I don't remember, I sent mine back...) and also various audio problems which resulted in dirty digital signals finding their way onto the audio earth and noticeably degrading the sound quality of the built-in audio, but also, to a lesser degree, PCI card audio.

Not everyone suffered from this (to some degree the quality of your mains supply earth will have determined your experience.

The second generation (current) G4 MDD's have much quieter fans, but some people claim that not all the audio problems have been fixed.

Personally, the MDD is the first Apple release I have not - and will not - own.

Also, the internal temperature of these machines is quite high. I wouldn't want to put an expensive ProTools card in there, for example.

So my advice, wait for the G5 - even the entry model will be better for you than a current G4. Plus, if you're waiting until September anyway, you might want to look at the Yamaha 01X which to me looks like the perfect controller/interface/mixer for the next-generation software studio.

No PCI cards, just mLAN over FireWire. Simple, future-proof, and just around the corner...

Finally, I know Apple bought Emagic, and a lot of people swear by Logic; I myself bought it but despite all the incentives, I really don't like it. I can appreciate that the fact it's the same in OS X as OS 9 is great for those who are transitioning, but for me that's part of the problem. Logic feels old. It doesn't directly support the greater number of VST plug-ins that are out there, and it works in a way that is alien to me, despite having given it my best shot I end up being as frustrated by it now as I was the last time I attempted to jump ship (sometime around 1994...)

Why do I mention this? Well, despite the well documented limitations of the 1.0 release of Cubase SX, this is the application for me. Version 2.0 - or at least 1.5 - should be out by September, hopefully addressing the bigger bugs....

SX, like OS X, is a program for the new millenium, without legacy code, and with a very smooth and well-considered workflow. Yes, AU support is required (and Steinberg would be dumb not to include it in the next release) Yes, USB Core Audio support is flaky - and maybe that will be fixed - but audio over USB was always a stop-gap solution anyway... mLAN is the future!

So there you have it. In case you hadn't guessed, my next (home) project studio will be built around a G5, Cubase SX, and a Yamaha 01X... By some strange coincidence, a commercial studio I'm involved with will be using the exact same configuration...

You've been great, thanks for listening...
     
booboo
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Jul 31, 2003, 06:29 PM
 
Originally posted by rupis33:
I played at raves and clubs back in college, but now want to produce, not mix for teens on drugs....
Luke Luquasious
And what's so wrong with teens on drugs ;-)
     
moreno
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Aug 2, 2003, 09:58 PM
 
bah, buy a PC with a pro card.

When the G5 arrive at stores, it won't be the supercomputer that Apple claims. ?

Also, you save money.
     
MattiMattMatt
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Aug 4, 2003, 05:16 PM
 
Luquasious --

Glad you found the advice helpful.

More about me:

I have been a musician all my life, performing, composing and producing in a variety of styles and mediums. My background is mixed, ranging from Juilliard to Def Jam. These days I am spending more and more time in a project that brings together large groups of different types of musicians. I have put together studios for myself and for others, and write about this stuff in magazines from time to time.

Your equipment strategy sounds about right. While virtual instruments are the future, and more and more the present, if you are a keyboard player, you may want a dedicated synthesizer that can also do double-duty as a MIDI controller.

Often the musical style you like can help steer you to the right synth -- I find that Roland, for example, is great for street-wise sounds, whereas Korg synths have more of the "LA / Film-music" sound. Kurzweils are like Volvos -- boxy but good. Yamahas are kind of a mix of everything else.

Given your budget, and how increasingly great virtual instruments are getting (and the power of the G5s), if you do not need an independent synth, it may make more sense to get a cheap-ass controller that can access sounds via software.

booboo offers some great advice -- particularly regarding the Yamaha 01X -- I too think this is a fantastic-looking piece of equipment, a true all-in-one that serves as audio/midi/controller/mixer/effects interface over firewire / mLan. However, Yamaha seems to have delayed its release, and there's no telling how long it will take to be born and play nice with others.

Combining a MOTU 828 MK II (also firewire, but not mLan) plus a control surface (e.g. Mackie Control which, as of last week, will also control Logic -- Mackie has simultaneously discontinued production on the no-longer-needed proprietary Logic Control), gives you pretty much what you'd get in the Yamaha, and then some. However, if the Yamaha is released and works at the time you're looking for an audio interface over 1K, I'd take a serious look at it.

Regarding the DAW wars around the internet (mainly Logic vs. ProTools vs. Digital Performer), you'll see a number of threads about people switching to Logic from whatever DAW the forum is about, never the other way around. Logic is evolving faster than any other DAW, now more so than ever with Apple as it's new parent, and it is very quickly becoming the Final Cut Pro of the audio world. With all the DAWs out there, many are quietly in trouble with the notable exception of Logic, whose star is on the rise.

Sweetwater is often a good place to buy stuff and get advice, provided you get a good salesperson. Don't be afraid to ask for a different salesperson if the one they assign to you sucks.

What are you doing in D.C.? Did you grow up there? Are you working in recording or sound reinforcement? Would you be interested in pursuing internship positions in D.C. (I may have some contacts / suggestions)?

-MattiMattMatt
     
rupis33  (op)
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Aug 4, 2003, 05:55 PM
 
Matt,

Again, I thank you for the advise. I am in DC doing sound reinforcement for high profile special events. It is boring work but pays much better than mixing bands, and more stable. I have been doing this for a little over two years. I graduated from U of Colorado with an audio engineering degree. I have been saving and plan to move to LA by the end of the year or early next year. I would be very interested in any contacts or suggestions you could give. I am not sure if my work schedule would allow for an internship, but would be more than happy to help out on my days off or something like that. I am looking for any help and experience I can get. I too have played music all my life, from piano to tuba to a little bit of guitar. I DJed at clubs and raves in Colorado, using a Roland SP-808. I have a passion for electronic music, but want to bring live instruments into my future productions. If you would like a resume I would be more than happy to email you a copy. Again I can't stress how grateful I am for the help. I have tried contacting people in my area that are in the industry, have even done some free lance work for people with out ever getting paid in hopes of getting to sit in on some sessions or at least get a glimpse of there studios. But people here or in the industry in general are either untrusting or lack the confidence to share there knowledge.

Luquasious Luke
     
MattiMattMatt
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Aug 4, 2003, 11:24 PM
 
Hi,

I agree that you won't find what you are truly looking for in DC; DC studios tend to be closed shops run by buddies, and so may not be as open to newbies as would, say, a New York studio looking to hire studio rats for a graveyard shift who would have the opportunity to bubble up into the real scene, often very quickly. Plus, who wants to record political ads and military bands for the rest of their life?

However, I have a suggestion or two in DC that may be of interest to you. Could you email a resume to [email protected]?

Ultimately, though, you're right -- LA or NYC sounds like where you want to be.

-MattiMattMatt
     
   
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