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In Design 3 (beta) in da house!
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Eug
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Jul 30, 2003, 08:58 AM
 
In Design 3 (beta) in da house...

Well, not my house, but check out this thread.

Quark needs to get off its @ssets and update 6 or else Adobe is gonna take over (eventually).
     
MacGorilla
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Jul 30, 2003, 09:11 AM
 
Originally posted by Eug:
In Design 3 (beta) in da house...

Well, not my house, but check out this thread.

Quark needs to get off its @ssets and update 6 or else Adobe is gonna take over (eventually).
I wish would happen but I have little hope. Let's face it, in DTP, people think think "Quark" like for word processing people think "Microsoft".
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Severed Hand of Skywalker
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Jul 30, 2003, 11:23 AM
 
Originally posted by Eug:
In Design 3 (beta) in da house...
Quark needs to get off its @ssets and update 6 or else Adobe is gonna take over (eventually).
Well almost all PRINT shops still use Quark 4 as the standard not even Quark 5. Design houses have to use what the printers use.

Quark 6 sounds like a total desaster. Quark 5 works almost perfectly in Classic.

I would love to move to inDesign but I know for a fact that all the big print shops we print at are all still OS9 and Quark 5/6.

Really this is like saying if MS doesn't get off its ass and update Windows XP OSX is going to take over the market.

So it is not going to happen for a LOOOONG time.

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benb
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Jul 30, 2003, 02:51 PM
 
Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Well almost all PRINT shops still use Quark 4 as the standard not even Quark 5. Design houses have to use what the printers use.


Think that one through for a moment.
     
gorickey
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Jul 30, 2003, 02:54 PM
 
Sweet, I look forward to some more "indexing" features and bug fixes...
     
JLL
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Jul 30, 2003, 03:27 PM
 
Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Design houses have to use what the printers use.
When I worked in prepress, we had to have what design houses had.
JLL

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Skywalkers new Hand
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Jul 30, 2003, 03:54 PM
 
Originally posted by JLL:
When I worked in prepress, we had to have what design houses had.
If you are a good designer you designer for the lowest common dominator.

If you design in Quark 6 and expect everyone to have it you are a typical egotistical designer.

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JLL
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Jul 30, 2003, 03:57 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
If you are a good designer you designer for the lowest common dominator.

If you design in Quark 6 and expect everyone to have it you are a typical egotistical designer.
What happened the last couple of years?

Has service bureaus forgotten the service part?

Design studios are their customers and they should adjust to that.
JLL

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foobars
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Jul 30, 2003, 04:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
If you are a good designer you designer for the lowest common dominator.

If you design in Quark 6 and expect everyone to have it you are a typical egotistical designer.
No, if you are a good designer you use the tools to make the best design and you find a printer that caters to you. Where are you getting this mentality? You don't sacrifice workflow for software incompatibilities. That's what we did, and that's wat everyone else is doing: switching to ID.
     
Skywalkers new Hand
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Jul 30, 2003, 05:13 PM
 
Originally posted by foobars:
No, if you are a good designer you use the tools to make the best design and you find a printer that caters to you. Where are you getting this mentality? You don't sacrifice workflow for software incompatibilities. That's what we did, and that's wat everyone else is doing: switching to ID.
When print shops start up they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in software and hardware. It is totally ridiculous to assume that they all have the most up to date hardware unless you like paying a ton.

Since when does one design a website to look the absolute best and screw the bandwidth it eats up?

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JLL
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Jul 30, 2003, 05:46 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
When print shops start up they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in software and hardware. It is totally ridiculous to assume that they all have the most up to date hardware unless you like paying a ton.
Don't printers have maintenance costs on their machines, buildings and so on? Why not have maintenance on their software? They don't have to have 20 licenses of each app!

We had to have the newest versions of at least Quark, PageMaker, Illustrator, FreeHand, Photoshop and CorelDRAW - plus an insane amount of different drives (44, 88, 200, 270MB SyQuest, 3.5 and 5.25" MO, Jaz, Zip and so on).

You don't tell your customers how they should run their business - if you do, they start looking for another printer.
JLL

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benb
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Jul 30, 2003, 05:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
When print shops start up they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in software and hardware. It is totally ridiculous to assume that they all have the most up to date hardware unless you like paying a ton.

Since when does one design a website to look the absolute best and screw the bandwidth it eats up?
And if they want to stay current, they must continue to invest in their equipment. To suggest that these costs are one-time setup costs, and that expenses should not be incurred every year or two is insane. There are very few professions that do not require upgrading the tools every few years.

Hm? Print does not require that the end user has something other than eyes and the ability to read. The Internet is a totally different meduim. Not only does it require the same as print, it also requires a computer and internet access. You analogy would work better saying that a designer created a website using PHP, but a limited selection of hosting companies support it.
     
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Jul 30, 2003, 05:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
When print shops start up they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in software and hardware. It is totally ridiculous to assume that they all have the most up to date hardware unless you like paying a ton.
That's funny I thought we were talking about software here. Last time I checked the printer we worked with didnt have to lay down another half mil to migrate away from Quark.

EDIT: I assume you're talking about changing presses just to upgrade from Quark. Unless you are talking about buying faster machines to run ID, which is even more retarded.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jul 30, 2003, 06:37 PM
 
I would love to move to inDesign but I know for a fact that all the big print shops we print at are all still OS9 and Quark 5/6.
How hard would it be to find a place that supported ID2,? I note that in Canada all new Power Macs were coming with a FREE copy of ID2 for quite a while. (Just asking, since I don't do this stuff.)

Really this is like saying if MS doesn't get off its ass and update Windows XP OSX is going to take over the market.
Except that XP does not suck anywhere near as bad as the reports for Quark 6. Your argument might make sense if XP ran worse than Win ME.

And as for ID 3 speed, I thought you were gonna get some dual G5s anyway. Should be speedy enough with 1.5 - 2 GBs of memory for your work.
     
mishap
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Jul 30, 2003, 08:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
If you are a good designer you designer for the lowest common dominator.

If you design in Quark 6 and expect everyone to have it you are a typical egotistical designer.
The thing is ...you dont need to use InDesign documents

almost all the printers i know take PDF files...what's the problem with InDesign (or Photoshop & Illustrator for that matter?
     
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Jul 30, 2003, 09:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug:
Except that XP does not suck anywhere near as bad as the reports for Quark 6. Your argument might make sense if XP ran worse than Win ME.
Ok fine, how about I.E that has been suck at 6.0 for PC for ages, if they don't update that are people all going to move to netscape and Safari?

I didn't say anything about Quark being slow. It runs fine on a Dual 1.25 G4, it only chokes on a page with lots of picture clippings.

We do send our magazine as PDF's. Problem is the printer we use is an hour out of town (they are the only ones who handle that many issues close to Toronto for a good price) BUT, in just about every issue something is wrong by the time it come off the printer. Colour or last minute changes, what we do then is go on one of the many computers that have Quark 5 on OS9 open the quark file and edit it, then print it again.

If we were using InDesign we would be in trouble.

Don't get me wrong I HATE quark, it is so limited and dated. We would love to move to InDesign but because of the printer we can't.

Not to mention most of the ads we receive are all quark files and telling all of our advertisers that they need to upgrade to InDesign also is ridiculous.

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Zimphire
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Jul 30, 2003, 09:24 PM
 
I know what the SWF is talking about. Plus, you ever try paginating classifieds in Indesign?

Take some files to a printer that they don't support and you will either get laughed at, or charged out the ass for.

PDFs however are great. If the person who is making them, knows how to make it work.
     
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Jul 30, 2003, 11:44 PM
 
Since when does one design a website to look the absolute best and screw the bandwidth it eats up?
If you're a descent web designer you know how to code well and not HAVE bandwidth hogging designs... ever heard of CSS? It cuts load times by a TON if used correctly.

As for the printer issue, WE are THEIR clients, if they want to exist and make money, they must use what we use, a TON of the designers I know use InDesign and have printers that have ID and know how to use it as well...

You don't tell your customers how they should run their business - if you do, they start looking for another printer.
RIGHT ON!!!

Take some files to a printer that they don't support and you will either get laughed at, or charged out the ass for.
How about, if I bring in a document that they cannot print, I leave and find someone who can... and if I get laughed at or anything else equally rude, I tell everyone I know not to use said company (we personally shut down a print house two years ago for being rude and many other things simply by spreading word of mouth... it's not hard, update and prosper.

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Socially Awkward Solo
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Jul 30, 2003, 11:56 PM
 
Hey Mac Guru, you forgot to mention how if a client that is paying to put ads in your magazine submits all the ads in Quark you are supposed to laugh at them and tell them they have to use inDesign.

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JLL
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Jul 31, 2003, 03:59 AM
 
Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Hey Mac Guru, you forgot to mention how if a client that is paying to put ads in your magazine submits all the ads in Quark you are supposed to laugh at them and tell them they have to use inDesign.
When did this become a Quark - InDesign discussion? I thought we were discussing new vs. old versions of software (Quark and/or InDesign).

But to address your post: The magazines that we advertise in tell us in what format we should deliver the ads in - we don't tell the magazines how they should produce their work.

And usually they prefer EPS or PDF files.
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Jul 31, 2003, 09:52 AM
 
Originally posted by JLL:

And usually they prefer EPS or PDF files.
All about the PDF
     
foobars
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Jul 31, 2003, 10:23 AM
 
Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Hey Mac Guru, you forgot to mention how if a client that is paying to put ads in your magazine submits all the ads in Quark you are supposed to laugh at them and tell them they have to use inDesign.
Or you just export them out of Quark to PDF and into ID...
     
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Jul 31, 2003, 11:29 AM
 
Originally posted by foobars:
Or you just export them out of Quark to PDF and into ID...
Just means WE get to do an extra step and have to own both Quark and inDesign.

In theory it will work but many clients still submit there work as word files. Since they are paying us to be in the magazine we have to cater to them.

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Jul 31, 2003, 12:32 PM
 
If you are a really good designer, you'll have a Production Artist or two to get your files in a format that will work best for the Printer you want to use. You won't have to worry about what you use or how you use it, you just worry about the design.

Believe me, Printers work for Designers. If you work for a good Design firm (ie - bring them good money), Printers will bend over backwards to satisfy you. Which is what they should do because Designers pay them, not the other way around.

I can tell you from personal experience that if a Printer doesn't support the software we use here at our Design Firm, we go somewhere else. It's simple business. We design in software that best suits our designs and workflow. We simply use Printers that support our software. Those Printers who don't, lose money. Very simple.
     
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Jul 31, 2003, 01:28 PM
 
.
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Jul 31, 2003, 02:24 PM
 
Originally posted by ::maroma:::
We simply use Printers that support our software. Those Printers who don't, lose money. Very simple.
Amen to that.

Btw, the pre-press companies who never even considered offering ID2 services or just claim that QuarkXPress is the only way to go, tend to be rather rude and difficult to work with anyway. Another reason not to put up with them. If I want a difficult relationship I go out and find a girl.
     
Skywalkers new Hand
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Jul 31, 2003, 04:24 PM
 
Originally posted by ::maroma:::
If you are a really good designer, you'll have a Production Artist or two to get your files in a format that will work best for the Printer you want to use. You won't have to worry about what you use or how you use it, you just worry about the design.
Yes we have that. I am a good designer because I have 2 other people working below me.... we also all have top of the line g4's, drive BMW's and a gold plated toilet set and a million dollers to throw around each issue

That is what good designers have right and if they don't it is the printers fault.

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SomeToast
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Jul 31, 2003, 04:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
In theory it will work but many clients still submit there work as word files. Since they are paying us to be in the magazine we have to cater to them.
Well that's nutty. Every magazine I've ever submitted ad files to has had clear and specific mechanical requirements for electronic files. They specified acceptable file formats, not me.
     
Skywalkers new Hand
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Jul 31, 2003, 04:38 PM
 
Ok i **** you not the second I posted that message Abobe called me and ask me about the interest I expressed in InDesign a while back.

I told him that both the printer does not support it and we still get many files from clients as quark files.

He said he understands and if the situation changes that I should call him.

Not one word about "dump your printer and get one that supports InDesign".

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SomeToast
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Jul 31, 2003, 04:42 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
Not one word about "dump your printer and get one that supports InDesign".
They let their website handle that task.
     
::maroma::
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Jul 31, 2003, 04:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
Yes we have that. I am a good designer because I have 2 other people working below me.... we also all have top of the line g4's, drive BMW's and a gold plated toilet set and a million dollers to throw around each issue

That is what good designers have right and if they don't it is the printers fault.
Sorry, I said that first part of my post somewhat in jest. (I guess I should've included the required smiley... ) I didn't mean to seriously suggest that the only good Designers have Production Artists working for them. I was trying to get across that there are a lot of Designers out there who never even think about production issues. And most of those Designers work for large Design Houses with a Production crew that takes care of that stuff. And lets face it, if it's a good Design House, said Designers are really good.

Anyhow, are you going to argue that Printers don't work FOR Designers? The moment you let the Printers dictate how you get your work done, you lose. A Printer's job is to produce exactly what the Designer wants. If they can't produce this, then they lose. If you compromise your design by being forced using inferior tools to get it done by your Printer, then the Printer no longer works for you, but you work for them. Funny part about that is, they don't pay you, you pay them.
     
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Jul 31, 2003, 05:16 PM
 
Originally posted by ::maroma:::
Anyhow, are you going to argue that Printers don't work FOR Designers? The moment you let the Printers dictate how you get your work done, you lose. A Printer's job is to produce exactly what the Designer wants. If they can't produce this, then they lose. If you compromise your design by being forced using inferior tools to get it done by your Printer, then the Printer no longer works for you, but you work for them. Funny part about that is, they don't pay you, you pay them.
Personally I would LOVE another printer. I would also love thicker paper to print the magazine on and one that supports InDesign.

Problem is convincing the bosses. Since we can do what we do in Quark and the magazine looks good and the printer we use even though they don't support inDesign are the only close printers that can handle our print run, can do it the fastest and cheapest.

So I am supposed to move our entire business to some printer even further out of town, bring the cost up and the time to publish because printers are supposed to cater to me!

Ya, the boss will love that one.

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foobars
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Aug 1, 2003, 12:30 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
Personally I would LOVE another printer. I would also love thicker paper to print the magazine on and one that supports InDesign.

Problem is convincing the bosses. Since we can do what we do in Quark and the magazine looks good and the printer we use even though they don't support inDesign are the only close printers that can handle our print run, can do it the fastest and cheapest.

So I am supposed to move our entire business to some printer even further out of town, bring the cost up and the time to publish because printers are supposed to cater to me!

Ya, the boss will love that one.
You're not making any sense. NO it isn't logical to go out of your way to upgrade a system that is working fine when your printer ONLY takes Quark and your magazine is fine the way it is.

But guess what? Some people have greatly improved workflow thanks to IDs native handling of AI, PSD, better preflighting ect... THESE people should find a printer that does support ID, and in that case the only way a printer will be competative is to support ID, so in effect it is thier responsibility to support that product.
     
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Aug 1, 2003, 01:43 PM
 
Originally posted by foobars:
You're not making any sense. NO it isn't logical to go out of your way to upgrade a system that is working fine when your printer ONLY takes Quark and your magazine is fine the way it is.
Isn't that exactly what I was saying other then the Quark sucks bit so why wouldn't I want to upgrade if quark is so limited?

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Aug 1, 2003, 01:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Isn't that exactly what I was saying...
In your own special SWG way, yes.
     
Shaddim
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Aug 2, 2003, 04:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Eug:
How hard would it be to find a place that supported ID2,? I note that in Canada all new Power Macs were coming with a FREE copy of ID2 for quite a while. (Just asking, since I don't do this stuff.)

Except that XP does not suck anywhere near as bad as the reports for Quark 6. Your argument might make sense if XP ran worse than Win ME.

And as for ID 3 speed, I thought you were gonna get some dual G5s anyway. Should be speedy enough with 1.5 - 2 GBs of memory for your work.
God knows it's laggy with 640MB (ID2), though not too painful. Anyway, it's the main reason I'm getting a dual G5, so I can load up 4GB+ of RAM into the beast.
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killer_735
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Aug 4, 2003, 03:35 PM
 
I'm curious...everybody's talking about needing Quark because their printer has it...do you still send your printer native files?

We've been sending .pdfs to the printer for several years now...and if you think about it, doesn't it make the most sense to use Portable Document Format, rather than mess with quark trying to link things up on a different machine?

The problem that used to exist with .pdfs is that when they go into the rip and need to decompress to postscript, they get huge. Our printer (Banta) solved this with a little app that holds data on the print server until the printer's ready for it.
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Skywalkers new Hand
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Aug 4, 2003, 04:42 PM
 
Originally posted by killer_735:
I'm curious...everybody's talking about needing Quark because their printer has it...do you still send your printer native files?
No we also send PDF's but like I said if there is a problem since we GO to the printer every run we have to open the file, edit it and then print it.

Also, ALL ads are submitted in quark format.

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::maroma::
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Aug 4, 2003, 05:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
No we also send PDF's but like I said if there is a problem since we GO to the printer every run we have to open the file, edit it and then print it.

Also, ALL ads are submitted in quark format.
Yeah, PDF's are great and all, but often times there are changes that the Printer's Production Team will make for us just before they go on Press. It's very common for us, so we don't use PDF's for Press, only for sending layout proofs to clients.
     
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Aug 4, 2003, 06:19 PM
 
Originally posted by ::maroma:::
Yeah, PDF's are great and all, but often times there are changes that the Printer's Production Team will make for us just before they go on Press.
tell me about it. this I've experienced many times.
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Socially Awkward Solo
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Aug 4, 2003, 11:05 PM
 
"The new Preview options should get many printers excited. Whilst Adobe Indesign has proven to be a big hit with designers it is less popular with Printers. One of the problems is that designers are actually using all the features that transparency layers and so on provide. The learning curve for printers is proving to be a bit steep and a few that I have spoken to actually have a collection of "problem" Indesign documents. Adobe are well aware of these issues and the new preview options are designed with this in mind. The Transparency Preview setting window now allows you to preview the transparency flattening and specify the degree of rasterisation and so on. The colour separation preview option is also very easy to use, you can check boxes for the colours you wish to preview."

http://www.macsofa.com/more.php?id=59_0_1_0_M

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