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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Applications > Upcoming Taskbar application.. Suggestions wanted

Upcoming Taskbar application.. Suggestions wanted
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BrandonCorbin
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Feb 28, 2004, 03:43 PM
 
I wanted to take a second to show a sneak peak of an application we are currently building, and get your suggestions, and take on it. Right now (code name Dockbar) is still in pre-alpha stages, however, I want to get suggestions on what this application would need to do to make it perfect! We have taken the great features of the dock, menubar, Windows and KDE taskbar and combined them all in to a feature rich, and expandable application. You can see a sneak peak here.

http://www.bcorbin.com/Dockbar.jpg

Please feel free to leave any suggestions, features you would like to see, or general bashing.

Thanks for your help, brandon.
     
Judge_Fire
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Feb 28, 2004, 04:23 PM
 
What would you emphasize as major advantages in your app, when compared to other, already established software such as DragThing?

J
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 28, 2004, 04:46 PM
 
Currently no other application was all of the uses that the dock currently has, because of using undocumented API's. Our application displays every WINDOW open, not just applications, but really the window list is only a single module. We will also be adding additional modules like the menu module which will allow you to add .menu items to the dockbar instead of always taking up space in the menubar.

Just to name a few things, I dont want to give away all of the secretes.

Dont get me wrong, dragthing is a great application! There are just little things that it doesn't do, that could make everyones life a lot more productive.
     
iOliverC
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Feb 28, 2004, 04:49 PM
 
So if I minimize a window, it goes straight into the taskbar?
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 28, 2004, 04:53 PM
 
We are trying to figure out the best way of dealing with that, right now it will just hide the window, instead of really minimizing, but Im open for suggestions.
     
Macanoid
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Feb 28, 2004, 04:58 PM
 
Looks promising. One thing though I'd like to have optional, and that the ability to chance the word 'Go'!
     
Moonray
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Feb 28, 2004, 06:50 PM
 
"Taskbar" sounds so windowsish.

-
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 28, 2004, 08:21 PM
 
Taskbar is Windowish, as well as Linuxish both OS's have some features that lack in the mac world for power users, now dont get me wrong, both OS's fail in comparison to our beloved OS X, I just want to make it better for power users. And dont think that I would ever call it Taskbar... because your right it is mainly known for Windows.



Originally posted by Moonray:
"Taskbar" sounds so windowsish.

-
     
Moonray
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Feb 28, 2004, 08:44 PM
 
Originally posted by BrandonCorbin:
Taskbar is Windowish, as well as Linuxish both OS's have some features that lack in the mac world for power users, now dont get me wrong, both OS's fail in comparison to our beloved OS X, I just want to make it better for power users. And dont think that I would ever call it Taskbar... because your right it is mainly known for Windows.
Good. I hope you find a nice name.

-
     
foobars
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Feb 28, 2004, 08:56 PM
 
You'll need skins if you want this to really take off...
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 28, 2004, 09:12 PM
 
We have talked about skins, originally I was kind of against them, from a standpoint of using applications like shapeshifter. If you are really into themes wouldnt it be fair to say that you would use an app like SS? If so would you want the bar to be the same style as your SS Theme? If Im nuts, please just let me know, because we want this to be the most enjoyable and useful app around... And if that means skins, well then skin-able it shall be.

Originally posted by foobars:
You'll need skins if you want this to really take off...
     
djohnson
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Feb 28, 2004, 10:23 PM
 
Originally posted by BrandonCorbin:
We have talked about skins, originally I was kind of against them, from a standpoint of using applications like shapeshifter. If you are really into themes wouldnt it be fair to say that you would use an app like SS? If so would you want the bar to be the same style as your SS Theme? If Im nuts, please just let me know, because we want this to be the most enjoyable and useful app around... And if that means skins, well then skin-able it shall be.
Skins it is! Anyone else for skins? Oh and programs that mess with the skins of the OS are unstable. It crashed my system once already... Oh and just to let people know, I can answer questions too

What kind of skins would you like? IE colors/themese/etc...
     
Slayer-X
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Feb 29, 2004, 12:11 AM
 
Have the ability to orient the taskbar on any of the 4 sides of the screen. If it is at the bottom/top of the screen it should be thin the way the windows taskbar is. Make it resizeable. Give it a "quicklaunch" kind of thing too. Oh and make it so that other programs cannot be "behind" or on top of it, so it would be always on top, and nothing could be behind it so that windows wouldnt get stuck and content would not be hidden away. And a customizable "Start" menu type of thing would be great. And a menu item to disable and enable the dock. Yes I know it seems like I want the windows taskbar itself, but it really does have some advantages over the OSX dock.
     
MacGorilla
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Feb 29, 2004, 12:36 AM
 
Interesting!
Power Macintosh Dual G4
SGI Indigo2 6.5.21f
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 29, 2004, 09:56 AM
 
Slayer-X great suggestions, luckily all of those are on the top of the todo list!
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 29, 2004, 12:22 PM
 
The way we have built this application, allows us to add "modules" to the dockbar pretty easily. Right now we have the window list, and a few others. But I would like to know what other people would like to see done.

Other modules for the dockbar that we have been thinking about:

Virtual Desktops,
System Monitoring,
Expose clickers
iTunes, iCal, AddressBook integrated Modules

Would love to know what else people would want.
     
suthercd
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Feb 29, 2004, 07:04 PM
 
Good idea. I have tried several dock-like replacements and other window managers and one problem stood out beyond their basic design and functionality. Performance. It seemed like their interface needed to filter or pass through all keyboard and mouse inputs. Clicks became less responsive as well as key input. It was as if the app would get the i/o first then pass it on the the System frameworks. Response of other apps seemed to be affected in a similar way. Actions seemed to develop a viscosity- lost their crispness. It is almost as if people work around or on hack the SystemUIServer and WindowServer without addressing how to use their core capabilities. Is this part of OS X still undocumented and private?

There are a couple Menu/launcher type apps, DragThing and DropDrawers, that perform well and are stable. I used them when I was working with a larger monitor, but now that most of my work is on a 15" PB, the screen real estate doesn't allow it.

Anything you can do to keep is simple and streamlined.... and stable. How well do *nix UI concepts transfer or adapt to Aqua?

Craig
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Feb 29, 2004, 07:13 PM
 
Performance is a huge factor in my opinion, I am not concerned that the thing be so fast that its insane, but if it would affect ANY other applications, well then that is not acceptable.

As far as *nix GUI features, there are some ui elements that do not match up. but we can do anything really. I am taking a lot of the features from KDE's bar... What did you have in mind?

Brandon Corbin
     
mitchell_pgh
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Feb 29, 2004, 07:54 PM
 
It looks interesting, but I'll be honest, I would never use it.

At one point in my life, I would install such applications, but I have learned over the years to stick with what the OS has. It's very difficult for me to learn how to maximize a UI element only to not have it on every other computer out there.
     
djohnson
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Feb 29, 2004, 10:15 PM
 
Originally posted by suthercd:
It is almost as if people work around or on hack the SystemUIServer and WindowServer without addressing how to use their core capabilities. Is this part of OS X still undocumented and private?

Craig
Yes, completely undocumented and private Doesn't stop us from using them though!!!!!!!!!
     
phrenzy
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Mar 1, 2004, 12:47 AM
 
Well, I just want to let me know you have my money the minute this is available.

I was one of those people who installed 'goMac' on every OS9 mac I set up. The one thing goMac *never* could do was to list all available WINDOWS (as the Windows task bar could) - It appears that you have solved that. Awesome

The only thing I would have to have is being able to have it along the bottom of the screen as the taskbar is. I assume you probably have this ability in mind already.

Also, what would be GREAT is if you could have the items on the taskbar reflect dock icon info. For example when 'Mail' is open it could say 'Mail (2 unread)' or flash the iChat item when a message comes in. Stuff like that to link it with applications that use the dock for feedback.

Oh and also, will there be a way to have this actually 'replace' the dock? I kind of would like to be able to just disable (not just hide) the dock if I switched to something like this. It would be cool if it had an option to kill the existing dock all together.

In any case, I can't wait until this comes out - do you need beta testers? I'd love to help get this thing developed.
     
TC
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Mar 1, 2004, 06:17 AM
 
It would be great if you could display the Windows of open Apps in a similar way that Omniweb displays tabs. Not sure if you can easily get access to that data for other apps though. The dock does it but I'm not sure if Apple uses a private API to do that.
Nothing to see, move along.
     
suthercd
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Mar 1, 2004, 08:35 AM
 
Reference to 'private and undocumented' is to question how effectively these bits can be hacked without knowing the full scope of how they work. Unintended consequences.

Craig
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Mar 1, 2004, 09:21 AM
 
Ultimately we would love to build a complete dock replacement, however until we figure out how ALL of the features of the dock work, we wont be able to. I would like this app to be able to control Expose like the dock does as well as grabbing application dockling features, but I will not say that will be done in the first release. If you are interested in being a beta tester, just email me. Eventually we will have the site up where you will be able to sign up for it. but until then, just email me at cold AT bcorbin DOT com

Thanks for all the great feedback!

Brandon Corbin
     
djohnson
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Mar 1, 2004, 10:41 AM
 
Originally posted by phrenzy:
It would be cool if it had an option to kill the existing dock all together.
This is a possibility. Closing the dock while our program is running would not be hard. If we do this, it would only be an option.
     
djohnson
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Mar 1, 2004, 10:50 AM
 
Originally posted by suthercd:
Reference to 'private and undocumented' is to question how effectively these bits can be hacked without knowing the full scope of how they work. Unintended consequences.

Craig
Well, from what I can tell they work pretty good!
     
Basilisk
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Mar 1, 2004, 02:02 PM
 
Currently no other application was all of the uses that the dock currently has, because of using undocumented API's. Our application displays every WINDOW open, not just applications
A correction, DragThing 5 does in fact have an option to display every open window, likely using the same CGS routines you're using.

Not that I intend to discourage you, just wanted to be sure there's truth in advertising :-)

We will also be adding additional modules like the menu module which will allow you to add .menu items to the dockbar instead of always taking up space in the menubar.
Another developer posted screenshots of his working SystemUIServer replacement a few months ago. Though AFAIK his never came to be publicly released, let me post the same requests to you as I did to him...

If you're going to try to host NSMenuExtras please be sure to supply developers with:

- An API so they can know they are hosted inside your app instead of SystemUIServer.
- An external API for adding/removing/checking for extras loaded in your app. This can be an AppleEvent model or code we link. If its code you need to make it BSD-license compatible or else we won't be able to use it in open-source projects.

Why are these necessary? The first one is just good practice, the second one is mirroring services we already have with SystemUIServer.

Its inevitable that MenuMeters users are going to ask me questions about your NSMenuExtra hosting. Without these services I and other MenuExtra authors are going to have real trouble with your system.

Alex
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Mar 2, 2004, 09:12 AM
 
You are right DragThing does have the window list, while its not nearly perfect enough for me, it does a decent job. And it helped me decide on a few things to change in our application. Thanks for your information!
     
mishap
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Mar 2, 2004, 01:03 PM
 
Just make sure it auto-hides.
     
djohnson
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Mar 2, 2004, 02:18 PM
 
I plan to make that an option
     
djohnson
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Mar 2, 2004, 08:26 PM
 
How about a module that tells you if you have new mail or a new IM??? Oh yeah, the best part is that it would display on top of the screensaver!
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Mar 3, 2004, 12:37 PM
 
What about price points? What would people be willing to pay for an application like this?

Obviously free would be nice, but for us to make this GREAT that is not an option right now, but we do want to make this something that anyone wants, and we dont want to break the bank for people who already pay a good amount for OS X updates

Take care
Brandon Corbin
     
phrenzy
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Mar 3, 2004, 03:23 PM
 
I'd say $10 - $15 is cool.
     
Jowy
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Mar 3, 2004, 05:38 PM
 
Yes the ten to fifteen range sounds about right. Any more than that and I'm always more likely to just live without the shareware instead of paying for it.
     
iOliverC
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Mar 3, 2004, 06:17 PM
 
I'd pay $20 if it allowed 3rd parties to create modulars.
     
phillryu
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Mar 3, 2004, 07:43 PM
 
I'd review it for free at MacThemes if it comes with skins!

MacThemes.net Editor in Chief
     
ambush
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Mar 3, 2004, 10:15 PM
 
Originally posted by BrandonCorbin:
I wanted to take a second to show a sneak peak of an application we are currently building, and get your suggestions, and take on it. Right now (code name Dockbar) is still in pre-alpha stages, however, I want to get suggestions on what this application would need to do to make it perfect! We have taken the great features of the dock, menubar, Windows and KDE taskbar and combined them all in to a feature rich, and expandable application. You can see a sneak peak here.

http://www.bcorbin.com/Dockbar.jpg

Please feel free to leave any suggestions, features you would like to see, or general bashing.

Thanks for your help, brandon.
You need DOCUMENTED plugin APIs... a BETTER interface
cool built-in modules
why not some kind of uh... notifification center � la Longhorn?
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Mar 3, 2004, 10:27 PM
 
There will be a documented module API. The interface is not set in stone, We are still trying to figure out the best way to "group" windows with the application while still giving people a 1 click way of getting to windows... The modules will be COOL, IMHO. And im sure the mac developers out there will rock!

We just started writing down how the notification center will work, we are thinking of making it accessible via applescript so any application can use it.




Originally posted by ambush:
You need DOCUMENTED plugin APIs... a BETTER interface
cool built-in modules
why not some kind of uh... notifification center � la Longhorn?
     
ambush
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Mar 3, 2004, 10:37 PM
 
Originally posted by BrandonCorbin:
There will be a documented module API. The interface is not set in stone, We are still trying to figure out the best way to "group" windows with the application while still giving people a 1 click way of getting to windows... The modules will be COOL, IMHO. And im sure the mac developers out there will rock!

We just started writing down how the notification center will work, we are thinking of making it accessible via applescript so any application can use it.
Maybe via a distributed notif. center too.. or via DO.

Anyways, you need kickass graphics.. now just normal buttons.
     
djohnson
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Mar 4, 2004, 12:06 AM
 
Originally posted by ambush:
Maybe via a distributed notif. center too.. or via DO.

Anyways, you need kickass graphics.. now just normal buttons.
What are wrong with normal buttons?

There will be a documented API as stated AND a template to use for the skins! We haven't set it in stone yet, but we will before it comes out!
     
djohnson
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Mar 4, 2004, 02:57 AM
 
Originally posted by ambush:
Anyways, you need kickass graphics.. now just normal buttons.
This is a good idea. Why not let us know what a some cool graphics? The better everyone helps us figre out how it should look, the better we can make it!
     
mac15
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Mar 4, 2004, 03:06 AM
 
Looks nice, will you be able to group documents opened by the one application? Say you have 5 docs open in photoshop. Will they have seperate buttons or will they be availiable via a contexual menus? Also, can it be shrunk to only show icons?
     
djohnson
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Mar 4, 2004, 03:23 AM
 
Originally posted by mac15:
Looks nice, will you be able to group documents opened by the one application? Say you have 5 docs open in photoshop. Will they have seperate buttons or will they be availiable via a contexual menus? Also, can it be shrunk to only show icons?
Hmm good idea. We will build contextual menu's in I think... We could have things like close and show. Possibly show the windows from the main application? That would be a good idea.

It may be possible to shrink to icons. How could you tell what program you would be in though? It might get confusing to have 6 photoshop icons showing with no window names! Thanks for the ideas!
     
mac15
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Mar 4, 2004, 07:30 AM
 
Originally posted by djohnson:
It may be possible to shrink to icons. How could you tell what program you would be in though? It might get confusing to have 6 photoshop icons showing with no window names! Thanks for the ideas!
Its bring me back to my original idea, if it would show a contextual menus. It would be nice to have say a transparent 5 (if there were 5 docs open) over the application icon. To show this.
     
McKee
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Mar 4, 2004, 08:03 AM
 
Some suggestions:
Make it killer by making available to multiple monitors! Also, GoMac was a great app in the OS 9 days because you could add modules to it. One of the best modules, IMHO, was a calculator. Thus, I could use a simple calculator WITHOUT having to launch an app first. I would REALLY love this functionality back.

Thanks for bringing the idea to us and asking for our feedback.
     
Marook
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Mar 4, 2004, 08:31 AM
 
Hi,

As a user of Salling Clicker, AppleScript has come to my attention. And I think you should have that in mind in every aspect of the application. The more we can script, the cooler it gets. You need to have the 'digital hub' in mind...

Also, we need to ab able to assign hotkeys for each 'item'. This is the most used aspect of DragThing, in my usage.
Marook
At least - it's a reply...
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Mar 4, 2004, 09:00 AM
 
We have now heard that a lot of people want this to be "Killer" looking. I can respect that being that my main career is focused around design. Obviously we have to take performance in to consideration, but I would love to see some design ideas that you people have. So if you want post your designs here and we can see if we can take them and make them real, we will give credit where credit is due.

Thanks everyone!

Brandon Corbin
     
macintologist
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Mar 4, 2004, 09:29 AM
 
I was wondering.

Would it be possible to make this compatible with ShapeShifter in that your app uses system interface widgets so that when a theme is applied in SS that it applies to your app as well, therefore making in skinable via SS themes? I hope that makes sense.

-Steve
     
BrandonCorbin  (op)
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Mar 4, 2004, 10:05 AM
 
Steve, that does make sense. And we are currently discussing this. Some people want skins, and others standard widgets so its SS skinnable. First pass will most likely be done with standard UI components, so it will be SS compatible. We plan on being able to do both, standard widgets and custom ones, so we will let you know!

Brandon Corbin


Originally posted by macintologist:
I was wondering.

Would it be possible to make this compatible with ShapeShifter in that your app uses system interface widgets so that when a theme is applied in SS that it applies to your app as well, therefore making in skinable via SS themes? I hope that makes sense.

-Steve
     
h00ligan
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Mar 4, 2004, 10:35 AM
 
stoked, I miss the os 9 go bar.
     
 
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