[C33]

President Bush called on Isreal to immediately cease fire and pull out of Palestinian controlled territories. As we know Israel hasn't complied and is continuing it's incursion. How should we react to that?

[deeg]

Originally posted by C33:
<STRONG>President Bush called on Isreal to immediately cease fire and pull out of Palestinian controlled territories. As we know Israel hasn't complied and is continuing it's incursion. How should we react to that?</STRONG>

here's an idea..the same way the US reacted to isreal ignoring the various U.N resolutions which have required it to withdraw from occupied lands..by continuing to give them $2 billion in aid each year..

one approach for iraq..bomb them into the stone age...one approach for isreal...give them more money/weapons

which one do you think has the strongest lobby organisation

[clRagnarok]

well we can't switch support to the palestinians, because they really are terrorists. the sad thing is israel has become their own version of nazi-germany, i.e. if you're not jewish they can do whatever they want to you.

i think we should just totally ignore the middle east for about 25 years, then when they all kill themselves off we can swoop in and take their oil.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by C33:
<STRONG>President Bush called on Isreal to immediately cease fire and pull out of Palestinian controlled territories. As we know Israel hasn't complied and is continuing it's incursion. How should we react to that?</STRONG>

Why should we react at all? Israel is a sovereign nation and doesn't owe us any obeisance. The only justified reaction that I can come up with is to stop trying to meddle with the internal affairs of other nations and let them sort our their own damned problems.

[C33]

Originally posted by clRagnarok:
<STRONG> the sad thing is israel has become their own version of nazi-germany, i.e. if you're not jewish they can do whatever they want to you.</STRONG>

I was wondering when someone would mention that. I was beginning to think i was the only one who felt this way. a few weeks after the 911 attacks i said basically the very same thing to the guy i was seeing at the time; well he is half jewish (if such a thing exists) and accused me of being a nazi and anti-semitic because i dared even question Isreal or its intent.

that was the last conversation we ever had with each other ... i had lost interest in him anyway.

[macthelastredman]

if israel asked the us to stop its war on terror in the mideast would we? no. so why should they stop trying to protect their people?

[theolein]

Originally posted by C33:
<STRONG>President Bush called on Isreal to immediately cease fire and pull out of Palestinian controlled territories. As we know Israel hasn't complied and is continuing it's incursion. How should we react to that?</STRONG>

Bomb the **** out of them like you did to Iraq.

[deeg]

Originally posted by clRagnarok:
<STRONG>well we can't switch support to the palestinians, because they really are terrorists. </STRONG>

one persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter.. how would you define a terrorist and how do mosad or the "christian" militia's used by israel in lebanon measure up to that defiition....

[vmarks]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
<STRONG>

Why should we react at all? Israel is a sovereign nation and doesn't owe us any obeisance. The only justified reaction that I can come up with is to stop trying to meddle with the internal affairs of other nations and let them sort our their own damned problems.</STRONG>

Thank you for the most reasonable response yet.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
<STRONG>

Why should we react at all? Israel is a sovereign nation and doesn't owe us any obeisance. The only justified reaction that I can come up with is to stop trying to meddle with the internal affairs of other nations and let them sort our their own damned problems.</STRONG>

Normally, I would agree. Standard Westphalian order and all that.

But does Westphalian order apply even when it comes to genocide? And make no mistake; if left to his own devices, Sharon would do just that.

In fact, that may be the biggest reason for the US to keep giving aid. While it's certainly not the mindset of all Israelis, the group that's currently in in power is driven by three principles: greed, racism, and paranoia. They really do think it's Them Vs. The World. We're really the only ally they have left. If we were to withdraw our aid, they would very likely decide that everyone truly was against them. Their most likely reaction would be to sweep over the entire occupied area "in an act of self-preservation" "since no one would help them anymore." There's a possibility that they might even use nuclear weapons (which, it should be pointed out, the US did not give to them). A few would probably even believe that the final judgement was coming. Again, not all Israelis believe this; in fact, a large majority don't. But the group in power does believe this way, and unfortunately, when it comes to national policy, that's the only mindset that matters.

It's sick. It could well be that by continuing to give them money and weapons, we're actually keeping them from doing even worse damage. It doesn't make anything even remotely resembling sense that this would be the case. But then, dealings with the insane seldom do.

And yet, I almost think it might be for the best to withdraw aid. In the fallout of an Israeli genocide, Israel would likely fall too, from "vengeance" delivered by every nearby nation that has even the slightest grudge. And in the end, both sides of the conflict are basically reduced to oblivion. Maybe that would finally teach people that religion is all well and good, but it just isn't something worth fighting over. A shame, as so many innocents would die in the process, enough to make 9/11 pale by comparison. But I'm half-convinced that the world won't learn any other way.

[scaught]

Originally posted by theolein:
<STRONG>

Bomb the **** out of them like you did to Iraq.</STRONG>

oooh. ooh. and after youre done with the bombing and the place is a smoking wreck, lay seige to them like its the ****ing 4th century! cut off medical supplies and watch their people (who probably hate their govt as much as we do) to shrivel up and die! wee!

[lenkman]

Well. if it was anyone else we would condemn them and lay on heavy sanctions and/or bomb the cr@p out of them. But the Israeli lobby here is oblivious to the fact that Sharon is shooting himself in the foot with a mortar by invading, and won't let Bush and others say the obvious. (actually they are moving, ever so slightly, in that direction, but still seem unwilling to cross the Rubicon.)

My guess, though, is that when it becomes clear that Sharon's policy is failing, the Israeli public will rise up in opposition (it's already begun, ever so slightly ), and will finally kick the moron out of office. I would give at most a month before people start to realize that Sharon has no plan, other than kill and be killed.

I don't know. I've been accused of being an idealist, but Sharon is a bloody moron (pun intended), and I would like to think that common sense will prevail, eventually.

[clRagnarok]

how many people here actually know what goes on over there?

The world arbitrarily picked a chunk of desert and just gave it to the Jews, without any regard for the people who already lived there. Wouldn't you fight to get your land back? They did fight, using military tactics and all, and they suffered severe losses. Now they've resorted to human sacrafices, suicide-bombing civilians and such. The fight is justifiable, but not the way they're fighting.

Also, I'm glad to see no one has started blaming the muslims for this one: Arafat is Christian.

[C33]

well, the thought of blaming the muslims never crossed my mind. i for one realize that fundamentalism is dangerous no matter what your faith. as horrible as muslim extremists are, christian fundamentalists can be just as dangerous and fanatical, and if you look back through history you can find many examples of that time and time again.

i'm now at the point where i think Sharon has crossed the line from defense to barbarism and my sympathy for Isreal has been greatly diminshed during the last few days. Sharon's tactics border on Genocide and even their greatest allie, the US, is demanding that they withdraw immediately from Palestinian territory. Sharon needs to be taken out, and that very well may happen but he wants to bring Arafat down with him at all costs. He should realize, however, that if he makes a martyr out of Arafat then Arafat will be vastly more powerful dead than alive. And, with Arafats latest statements, it seems he is begining to realize that his death may be the best thing he can offer his people rather than continue to be a prisoner of the Israelies.

[Millennium]

There's a very good Star Trek episode (original series) called "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". It deals with two warring races, fighting for control of the homeworld (both are half-black and half-white; the only difference is which side is which color).

The ship somehow manages to stumble upon one person from each race. Naturally, they are practically at each other's throats during the whole episode, as the ship tries to get them back to the homeworld. When they reach the homeworld, there are no life signs left anywhere on the planet; these two are the last of their respective races. There's a bit of reflection about this, then the two beam down to the homeworld. Within minutes, their life signs no longer register on the ship's sensors: the last two of this species killed each other.

Am I the only one who gets the sinking feeling that the Palestinian/Israeli conflict will turn out just like this episode did? Of course, not every Israeli or Palestinian wants to fight, but how much will that matter, given the methods those who do want to fight are likely to employ? They'll die all the same. And for what? The whole fight is utterly pointless.

[xi_hyperon]

It's hard to say given the outside factors at play now. Colin Powell is going now because this whole outburst has begun to derail Bush's campaign against Iraq. It's now in the Bush Administration's interest to settle things down so that we can return to our previously scheduled episode of Bomb Saddam Part II. Funny how that works doesn't it.

Motivations aside, with the U.S. taking an active role in trying to defuse the situation, there's a chance that Sharon will back off finally. To be honest though, I really think both sides are to blame. Yes, the Israelis clearly have the upper hand and are taking advantage of it, but if the roles were reversed, I have no doubt the Palestians would do the same to the Israelis.

Someone commented on NPR the other day that both Arafat and Sharon should go because they've simply been in the fight too long. Imagine the history these two have- if you don't know, you'd be surprised how long they've been adversaries. I tend to agree though, it would be more constructive to bring new leaders on both sides. At least perhaps there might be the chance of a cease fire, and long term the debacle at Camp David would be less likely to happen again.

[Paco500]

Originally posted by clRagnarok:
<STRONG>Also, I'm glad to see no one has started blaming the muslims for this one: Arafat is Christian.</STRONG>

What are you basing this assertion on? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard that, and after a quick search on Google, I found several articles that identified him as a muslim, and none that suggested he was a christian.

It doesn't matter (well, it does, but it shouldn't), but I'm curious.

Paco

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Paco500:
<STRONG>

What are you basing this assertion on? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard that, and after a quick search on Google, I found several articles that identified him as a muslim, and none that suggested he was a christian.
</STRONG>

...he's not. He is a muslim.

[daimoni]

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