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badidea · Nov 12, 2004, 07:52 AM

...then read this great story about the history of Audion!

They stopped the development!

PurpleGiant · Nov 12, 2004, 08:47 AM

Ah yes. I loved both SoundJam and Audion. Seems that I bought both of 'em too, which is serving me well these days...

Sarc · Nov 12, 2004, 09:10 AM

I stilled have a copy of Carbon SoundJam MP somewhere. It was a very good player. Plus ... it supported WinAmp Skins, some of wich are very nice.

I never really got around with Audion though, makes me sad however that Panic stopped developement, it was a good thing to have a player on the same league as iTunes, at least for the sake of competition.

So long, Audion.

ManOfSteal · Nov 12, 2004, 09:34 AM

R.I.P

Mithras · Nov 12, 2004, 09:38 AM

All those programs that used playlists instead of a "library" approach drove me nuts, personally. I just want to pick an album and play it, not run around fiddling with playlists and saving them and loading them and...

eventually that 'playlist linked to disk' thing helped, but iTunes was like a breath of fresh air for me.

badidea · Nov 12, 2004, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Mithras:
All those programs that used playlists instead of a "library" approach drove me nuts, personally. I just want to pick an album and play it, not run around fiddling with playlists and saving them and loading them and...

Yep, that was the main reason why I jumped from Audion to iTunes!

GoGoReggieXPowars · Nov 12, 2004, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Mithras:
All those programs that used playlists instead of a "library" approach drove me nuts, personally. I just want to pick an album and play it, not run around fiddling with playlists and saving them and loading them and...

I'm the opposite, which is why I liked SoundJam. 99% of the time I'm going to go into the Finder and start dragging things to the playlist, and go with that.

I always hated Audion.

DeathToWindows · Nov 12, 2004, 10:41 AM

Loved soundjam when it was an active app... really pissed it never made it over to X in any real way... used Audion for two years... quite good.

I use iTunes now... Audion just didn't seem worth it.

RIP

kikkoman · Nov 12, 2004, 10:43 AM

that was a great read! i really admire the guys at Panic!

demograph68 · Nov 12, 2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by kikkoman:
that was a great read! i really admire the guys at Panic!

They got my respect alright. They could have been responsible for iTunes if it weren't for the crap with AOL.

The Godfather · Nov 12, 2004, 11:07 AM

When iTunes did not exist, I used to play my music with Winamp in a PC.
You suckas

Mithras · Nov 12, 2004, 11:24 AM

Loved the story. That Steve Jobs, what a charmer!

Jobs wanted to know how big we were, and how long we've been doing this. He wanted to know a few more things that I can't even really remember. I remember he asked, "Do you have any other ideas for apps you want to work on?" I replied, genuinely, "Well, we've got an idea for a digital photo management program..." and he replied with a simple, "Yeah. Don't do that one." Everyone in the room laughed but I had no idea why — remember, my head was still exploding — so Steven Frank had to explain to me that he meant, basically, it was already being made and, of course, it would be called iPhoto. Oh. I get it now.

We also seem to remember Jobs painted us a vibrant (but genuinely honest) picture of how he viewed Audion fairing against iTunes:

"It's like you guys are a little push-cart going down the railroad tracks, and we're a giant steam engine about to run you down."

Powaqqatsi · Nov 12, 2004, 12:13 PM

Before iTunes I didn't care about playing music on my computer. I downloaded music from the internet and recorded it to MiniDisc and deleted the music from my computer. And I played the music through my MiniDisc deck. Or CD's of course. I still use CD's a lot these days.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Nov 12, 2004, 12:27 PM

I find that most Panic Apps are very crashy for the first couple YEARS. Audion looked neat but I hated the library interface. I preferred soundJam and HATED that damn MacAmp or whatever it was called because it stayed in beta forever.

Apple has a Monopoly on iTunes, luckily it is awesome and they are not competing with anyone on the Mac platform but rater trying to get windows users to switch.

GoGoReggieXPowars · Nov 12, 2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
When iTunes did not exist, I used to play my music with Winamp in a PC.
You suckas

Winamp didn't work on my 386.

Eriamjh · Nov 12, 2004, 01:17 PM

I didn't have nay music on my Mac until iTunes.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Nov 12, 2004, 01:38 PM

"Hi Steve, it's Cabel, from Panic."

"Oh, hey Cabel! Nice to meet you. So tell me, what'd you think of iTunes?"

"Well, I think it looks great! You guys have done a great job with it. But, you know, I still feel we'll do all-right with Audion."

"Oh, really? That's interesting, because honestly? I don't think you guys have a chance."

Yep, sounds like steve and he was right in the end.

The Godfather · Nov 12, 2004, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by GoGoReggieXPowars:
Winamp didn't work on my 386.

For 386, you use Fraunhofer's player and Windows 3.1.
Back in the day (1990), the 68030's could not play MP3s.

Stradlater · Nov 12, 2004, 02:32 PM

enjoyable read

Nov 12, 2004, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
For 386, you use Fraunhofer's player and Windows 3.1.
Back in the day (1990), the 68030's could not play MP3s.

I'll be damned if I can remember the title, but there was a 68K MP3 player for Macs. Maybe it only worked on the 68040s.

spacefreak · Nov 12, 2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Mithras:
Loved the story. That Steve Jobs, what a charmer!

Jobs could have said the exact same things to a bunch of developers, like the folks from Watson, Konfabulator, etc.

The ironic thing is that if Bill Gates was quoted saying the same thing to the then-Netscape folks regarding Internet Explorer, this same community would be up in arms, crucifying Gates as the devil.

Meanwhile, Steve Jobs tells independent Mac application developers the same thing - that he's going to steamroll over them and take away their livlihood - and he's praised as some sort of supreme God.

On another note, I don't quite get why Cabel and Panic even gave AOL the time of day. If I'm a developer of a Mac application, and the choice as to who to give meeting priority arises, I'd give Apple top billing over AOL every time.

Cabel (or whoever wrote the piece) tries to portray Panic as some sort of romantic operation, where innovation and lifestyle take precedence over money. If this were true, however, I don't see why they stress the $68 million AOL gave to Frankel for WinAmp, or why they were willing to jerk Apple around on meeing with them to try and please AOL.

Huge mistakes were made from a business perspective, and instead of admitting ththat these were indeed mistakes, they try to cover their failings by reiterating that they really didn't want to go bigtime anyway. It sounds extremely disengenuous.

Transmit kicks ass, though. I use it all the time, and I'm glad they have continued their work on it.

E's Lil Theorem · Nov 12, 2004, 02:57 PM

I was a SoundJam type of guy myself.

Originally posted by Stradlater:
enjoyable read

Yup, a bit long, but a good read indeed.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Nov 12, 2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
Jobs could have said the exact same things to a bunch of developers, like the folks from Watson, Konfabulator, etc.

The ironic thing is that if Bill Gates was quoted saying the same thing to the then-Netscape folks regarding Internet Explorer, this same community would be up in arms, crucifying Gates as the devil.

No, the difference is the Watson developer AND Panic employees were both offered jobs in Apple. Apple even wanted to buy Audion but Panic canceled the meeting not knowing what they were doing.

As for Konfab (other then it sucks) it was clear that Apple came up with the idea years ago and even NEXT used it. The developer also once worked at Apple.

GoGoReggieXPowars · Nov 12, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
For 386, you use Fraunhofer's player and Windows 3.1.
Back in the day (1990), the 68030's could not play MP3s.

My last PC, the 386 in question, was long gone by the time I'd found MP3s. As far as I can recall, a PPC was needed on the Mac side, and a Pentium 90 was recommended as a minimum spec on the PC end.

Nov 12, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:

Huge mistakes were made from a business perspective, and instead of admitting ththat these were indeed mistakes, they try to cover their failings by reiterating that they really didn't want to go bigtime anyway. It sounds extremely disengenuous.

Probably because they'll never really know if it was a mistake, and neither will you. If they were planning to base their entire career on Audion, then yes, it was a mistake, but they seem to have other projects too.

Their account seems honest and genuine to me. They were somewhat seduced by corporate dollars, but knew they'd have to give up control. There's conflict in this story and it makes for good reading.

itai195 · 04:25 PM

Originally posted by spacefreak:
...

Agreed 100% with everything in your post. One difference between Apple and Microsoft is that Apple's products are at least significantly better than the 3rd party products they replace. iTunes was/is a much better application that Audion. I'm not a fan of Konfabulator and prefer this kind of function built into the OS, nor do I think desktop widgets were a particularly original idea in the first place. I can't speak for Watson/Sherlock because I never used either one. Another point to be made is that Apple doesn't jack with standards (or de facto standards) as much. Microsoft doesn't just steamroll their competition by releasing a new product, they add proprietary extensions to standards so that they also gain control of the underlying technology.

Langdon · Nov 12, 2004, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by DeathToWindows:
Loved soundjam when it was an active app... really pissed it never made it over to X in any real way...

iTunes = Soundjam
Apple bought it out from C&G and the dev staff went over to Apple to remake it into iTunes.
I always assumed it never went to OSX because there was no time for it to. They were already on v2 of iTunes when OS9 was tossed out so C&G wasn't even working on much OSX stuff when they sold it.

alphasubzero949 · Nov 12, 2004, 05:32 PM

It was all about SoundApp for me.

the_glassman · Nov 12, 2004, 05:33 PM

I remember using it before iTunes came out, was an excellent program. They should open source it and put it on sourceforge.

yukon · Nov 12, 2004, 05:51 PM

Soundapp here as well. I didn't have a massive collection, but the clean and simple interface, along with the speed making it usable on the 6100, kept me using it. Emailed the creator a couple of times asking for an OS X port, no response other than a "keep checking here" message four years ago. Went to Mu and a few other players, iTunes was just too slow for me. Eventually moved to iTunes to get away from the playlist stuff and be able to organize.

100% Agreed with Glassman here, Open Source. iTunes took down Audion, maybe "Freedion" could take down iTunes. For someone who can't use the iTMS and doesn't have an ipod, iTunes hasn't really changed for years. And god knows Rythembox could use some help.

Millennium · Nov 12, 2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:
For 386, you use Fraunhofer's player and Windows 3.1.
Back in the day (1990), the 68030's could not play MP3s.

If I recall correctly, Fraunhofer's minimum system requirements involved a Pentium 90.

I remember using SoundApp to play mp3s om my old 6100/60, back in The Day. It worked, but just barely; I couldn't do anything else (not even opening folders) without extreme skippage. The other MP3 players were too CPU-heavy to work well at all. I tell you, those were the days...

mitchell_pgh · Nov 12, 2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
If I recall correctly, Fraunhofer's minimum system requirements involved a Pentium 90.

I remember using SoundApp to play mp3s om my old 6100/60, back in The Day. It worked, but just barely; I couldn't do anything else (not even opening folders) without extreme skippage. The other MP3 players were too CPU-heavy to work well at all. I tell you, those were the days...

My first MP3 player was my trusty old 6400. A good system at the time. It was great... as long as I wasn't doing anything more then typing.

mitchell_pgh · Nov 12, 2004, 06:16 PM

So I wonder what's next from Panic...

They can't survive on Transmit, Unison, Desktastic, CandyBar and Stattoo as their bread winners... especially considering Statoo is about to be put in a world of hurt with Tiger just around the corner.

They make great software... I hope they keep the dream alive. I always trick the company I'm working for to buy a license from the for Transmit...

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Nov 12, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
So I wonder what's next from Panic...

They can't survive on Transmit, Unison, Desktastic, CandyBar and Stattoo as their bread winners... especially considering Statoo is about to be put in a world of hurt with Tiger just around the corner.

They make great software... I hope they keep the dream alive. I always trick the company I'm working for to buy a license from the for Transmit...

Think secret ran some story about an upcoming app from them that actually looked good. They don't have a search and I ain't digging through those crappy archives to find it now either. Something about being able to use your iSight to scan barcodes to archive DVD's and such.

Stradlater · Nov 12, 2004, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by PurpleGiant:
Ah yes. I loved both SoundJam and Audion. Seems that I bought both of 'em too, which is serving me well these days...

Well, you were a small piece in both of their development and the resulting iTunes, so I'd say that it's indirectly serving you quite well.

itai195 · Nov 12, 2004, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
They make great software... I hope they keep the dream alive. I always trick the company I'm working for to buy a license from the for Transmit...

I just bought a license for Transmit the other day

I'm also wondering what's coming next... Much as I love Panic's software, they aren't huge on concepts. FTP and Usenet apps aren't exactly groundbreaking.

bradoesch · Nov 12, 2004, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by GoGoReggieXPowars:
My last PC, the 386 in question, was long gone by the time I'd found MP3s. As far as I can recall, a PPC was needed on the Mac side, and a Pentium 90 was recommended as a minimum spec on the PC end.

I remember using a program called NAD on my Pentium 100. You couldn't multi-task, and no other program could play MP3s skip free.

I think you could download MP3s from web sites back then.

Sarc · Nov 12, 2004, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Langdon:
iTunes = Soundjam
Apple bought it out from C&G and the dev staff went over to Apple to remake it into iTunes.
I always assumed it never went to OSX because there was no time for it to. They were already on v2 of iTunes when OS9 was tossed out so C&G wasn't even working on much OSX stuff when they sold it.

Like I said, there was a Carbon SoundJam MP. It didn't last very long.

Here's an old SShot of SoundJam MP running on my Mac. Looks like 10.1, or 10.2 maybe.

*LINK*

Anyway, the article was a great read, makes you wonder what iTunes would be now if the Audion team was hired instead.

Between the two though, I could never get myself to use Audion, don't know why, always went with SJ.

DeathMan · Nov 12, 2004, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Think secret ran some story about an upcoming app from them that actually looked good. They don't have a search and I ain't digging through those crappy archives to find it now either. Something about being able to use your iSight to scan barcodes to archive DVD's and such.

You're either being sarcastic, or thinking of Delicious Library. Or maybe you're right, and there will be two great library apps to choose from.

I think Panic makes cool stuff, and haven't had any stability problems. Transmit was a little slow when I first got it, but its great now. I haven't tried Unison, since I try to keep illegal downloading to a minimum. If I lived in Canada, I'd probably get it.

Audion had a sweet icon though. I think panic has the best icons out of anyone. It seems like Icon Factory does them, but other icon factory icons aren't nearly as good as what they seem to put out for Panic.

Liked the story though.

Also, being the Jobs fanboy that I am, he made those comments knowing he was going to offer those guys a job, and wanted them to see that they couldn't compete with him, which obviously they couldn't.

My feeling is, if you're great, you're great, and you'll have different opportunities to make money. If the time wasn't right for those guys to join Apple, then it wasn't right, and they are the only ones who could make that call.

Kenneth · Nov 12, 2004, 07:11 PM

so did anyone actually pay the shareware fee?

OB1 · Nov 12, 2004, 08:40 PM

I messed around with a few different mp3 apps in the pre' iTunes days, always found them very dissatisfying. I remember a friend of mine showing me the latest version of Windows Media Player. It looked so much better, and more useful, than anything available for os9. Very annoying... When itunes popped up on Apples site I just thought "thank god for that...." It did exactly what I wanted it to do. And it was so much better than Windows Media Player! Never looked back.

The Godfather · Nov 13, 2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by GoGoReggieXPowars:
My last PC, the 386 in question, was long gone by the time I'd found MP3s. As far as I can recall, a PPC was needed on the Mac side, and a Pentium 90 was recommended as a minimum spec on the PC end.

Yes. A Pentium 90 is recommended, but a 386 could do it like this:
Mono instead of Stereo
Downsampled to 11kHz
8 bit resolution
High priority task
2MB buffer

The MP3s sounded horrible but they played nonetheless

I even encoded songs: 5 hours for a 3 minute song

A friend of mine tried to teach me how to play MP3s from DOS, but I never learned.

wdlove · Nov 13, 2004, 02:24 PM

The days before iTunes, my wife purchased a lot of CD's.

Mithras · Nov 13, 2004, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Sarc:
Here's an old SShot of SoundJam MP running on my Mac. Looks like 10.1, or 10.2 maybe.

*LINK*

Ahh, purple iTunes, pinstripes, Carracho... fills me with nostalgia.

Big Mac · Nov 13, 2004, 02:39 PM

Was no one else using MacAMP/MacCast? It was not a very Mac program at all, but it got the job done for me. The first experience I had with iTunes was downloading it from a hotel connection on my iBook and not having many tracks to play because my MP3s were on my 8600. Earlier than '97 I had not used MP3s. I do remember a friend telling me about them, I believe, and that was probably in '95 or so.

Zimphire · Nov 13, 2004, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Mithras:
Ahh, purple iTunes, pinstripes, Carracho... fills me with nostalgia.

All of those still exist cept the purple iTunes.

Superchicken · Nov 13, 2004, 04:55 PM

In many ways I'm glad these guys didn't join Apple... they seem a bit... worried about being in control. If I were a Mac Dev if Jobs specifically asked me to join em I'd say HECK YAH! Come on if Jobs asks you to join do you honestly think you're going to just be a code monkey who gets no input into the design of the software? They had a chance to make better apps and they blew it.
That said, Apple looked at bringing in both Audion and SoundJam into the fold, not either or if you look at it, they bought out SoundJam, AND they still offered the Panic guys jobs. That's hardly M$ like... M$ would have just stolen their code

MacmanX · Nov 13, 2004, 06:16 PM

You know, I really don't remember listening to MP3s before iTunes. If I wanted to hear music on my 6100/66 DOS, I would use the CD player. But, I would rather hear the music on my stereo. I suppose the iMac really brought music to the Mac. I downloaded iTunes to my iMac DV as soon as it came out. I also bought an iPod as soon as they were released.

Actually, I must have listened to MP3s on my 6100 (though I had replaced the PC card with a G3/ 233 upgrade card from Sonnet [Simply fast]). I used to keep MP3s on Iomega Zipdisks. The only Zip drive I had was SCSI, so it was pre-iMac. Well, I don't remember how I played them. But, I know I never paid money to play my MP3s. Does anyone remember any free pre-iTunes MP3 players?

Anyway, that was a very fun article.

Cheers!

Superchicken · Nov 13, 2004, 06:35 PM

I used MusicMatch for about.. four months before iTunes was released. As soon as it was I lamented that it was OS 9 only, but someone made a patch and someone else told me about it... so I was quite happy.

bradoesch · Nov 18, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by The Godfather:

A friend of mine tried to teach me how to play MP3s from DOS, but I never learned.

Oh boy, I just remembered ripping my first CD. It was a DOS program, and you had to know if your CD-ROM drive supported DAE or something. It was horrible.