[clebin]

Fortnight - fourteen nights. Sometimes truth isn't stranger than fiction, unfortunately..

Of those saying "of course DVD will be in 10.1!" now, how many of you actually work on the DVD Player project? We all, myself included, spoke with much authority on how 10.0 would definitely include a DVD Player.

Saying it's not a priority is a lousy excuse that we shouldn't be making for Apple. They'll have a team responsible for the DVD Player development and their priority is DVD and nothing else. That's not to say that it's their fault that DVD is atleast 6 months late, but what exactly would be so important that they'd move this team onto something else?

DVD and CD Burning are (and should be) a major embarrasment to Apple - most likely to Jobs personally. They can't run a campaign like "Rip. Mix. Burn" without feeling a little silly, and they can't change it to "Rip. Mix. Boot OS 9. Burn".

Same goes for DVD. They're positioning themselves as world leaders in DVD authoring, but their 'most advanced OS in the world' can't even play the things let alone author them 6 months after it was launched.

It's a punch in the stomach to Apple's marketing team. How can you hold your head up high while you have to preload two operating systems on every machine you sell? Find the precedent for that.

Chris

[Mojo the Monkey]

Originally posted by Milio:
<STRONG>So does anybody think the Vikings will make it to the Superbowl?</STRONG>

No, the Vikings will dedicate their playoff game to the memory of Korey Stringer, but will then blow the game in an incredibly embarrassing manner, like almost every other playoff game they've been in in lately.

[Nitzer]

Originally posted by Mojo the Monkey:
<STRONG>

No, the Vikings will dedicate their playoff game to the memory of Korey Stringer, but will then blow the game in an incredibly embarrassing manner, like almost every other playoff game they've been in in lately.</STRONG>

Amen brother! The Vikings are the choke-masters of the universe. Go Packers!!!

[JB72]

Great points clebin (Chris.) I can't imagine Apple is at all happy about the situation, although I'm sure it'll be sorted soon enough, more or less. The performance issues, and the lack of DVD playback and CD authoring give the impression that this OS isn't quite as ideal for creative purposes. I think ".1" will begin to change this, but it must have marketing in a bit of a bind with their new OS being unable to achieve what is essentially the focus of their ad campaign.

[Norm1985]

Consider several things...

• 1. Apple demonstrated the DVD player with 5F24 working fairly well at MacWorld. You have to remember the DVD player needs direct accsess to the kernal and has things essential to run from the kernal. So, Apple is not going to go change the DVD player constantly to fit builds the entire time.
  
  2. Jobs said iDVD 2 will be one of the two main topics for the Apple Expo Europe in Paris.
  
  3. iDVD 2 is for Mac OS X v10.1 or higher only. It would be incredably stupid and odd for Apple to have DVD authoring in the OS and not DVD playback.
  
  4. DVD Playback is one of the MAJOR features noted on Apple Mac OS X Client v10.1 information page. Apple has indicated also through other ways that this is also a MAJOR feature.
  
  5. Customers have been waitng a long time for a completed Mac OS X. Jobs promised customers DVD for anytime in the Spring. September 26th it will be well into the fall. Apple can't afford to disapoint customers anymore.

[eevyl]

Good points clebin. One of the things that happened is that a lot of people thought Apple could shake the magic wand and magically convert all their code to Mac OS X.

Port all the apps Apple have is a major thing, not to be done in a couple of days, neither weeks nor months.

Already done:
iTunes (with Audio CD burning)
iMovie2
AppleWorks

Soon to be released:
DVD Player
iDVD2
Disc Burner (with Finder 10.1)

To be done:
Final Cut Pro 2
DVD Studio Pro

Miss something?

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by clebin:
<STRONG>Of those saying "of course DVD will be in 10.1!" now, how many of you actually work on the DVD Player project? We all, myself included, spoke with much authority on how 10.0 would definitely include a DVD Player.</STRONG>

But never did 10.0 have a DVD player, never did Apple say "DVD playback WILL be a feature in Mac OS X 10.0.0". Apple has stated this for 10.1.

[dvdking]

My rant on starting this thread on the DVD player is motivated by two things:
I want to use Mac OS X all the time, and if I need OS 9 I want it to be through classic. That is how much I like using OSX!

On the off chance that Apple personnel check these threads out, I want them to witness the desire of Apple CUSTOMERS. We want our DVD enabled Powerbooks to be able to play DVD's on "The most advanced os on the planet"

I have always used Apple equipment because I thought it was the best, and in no way want to harm Apple by this discussion. However, I wanted to hear others opinions/insight on the status of the DVD player and also MAYBE send Apple a message to please not push the DVD schedule back any further.

I have been an Apple Fan(atic) for 23 years and own or have owned: Apple ][ ][+ ][gs / Apple III / Lisa / Mac 512/XL/II/IIci/IIfx / Powermac 6100/8100/8500/8600/G3 BW/G4 / iMac's / Mac Portable / Powerbook 170, G3, G4.....

I think they make the best OS and no one "Thinks better" but hear us chant: "We want DVD" and please don't put it off...

[ymir23]

Anyone have any idea as to whether the X DVD Player will finally have navigation arrows and a numeric keypad? Will it finally allow screen grabs or will I continue to have to use my PC at work?

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by Nitzer:
<STRONG>

Amen brother! The Vikings are the choke-masters of the universe.</STRONG>

Ahem. Boston Red Sox.

Goddamn Yankees.

[austeros]

come on, dvd wont be perfect, but with apple buying out dvd companies, and promoting the superdrive like crazy, you have to know its in their sights.

boston redsox vs. the chicago cubs in the series, and we will know anything is possible

[SirCastor]

Originally posted by Boondoggle:
<STRONG>The term fortnight came in to use during the height of colonial occupation by the british. Surrounding virtually every garrison around the globe there were prostitutes, who would occasionally be enticed into the fort for a "night". After being passed around from sargent to private and back several times the average stay of the poor child in the fort was 2 weeks.</STRONG>

a 'fortnight' dates back much further than colonial America. It can be found a number of times in various Shakespear writings. (I think it's also in the Canterbury tales, but it's been a while since I've looked at those..)

[furballs]

dvdking I'm intrigued - how do you manage to watch a move AND edit a Word document at the same time? It must be either a very undemanding film or a very trivial document

[dvdking]

More often than not, it's the Movie that doesn't get the attention... They don't make them like they used to.

[jimmac]

Good point Furballs! I know some people manage to have a movie playing in the back ground like listening to music ( myself included ). But, I think if they have seen the movie enough times that they can do that they could be listening to music instead and the movie just isn't that critical. I think he just wants OS X DVD just like the rest of us but, he's portraying it as more crucial than it is to pad his argument.

[Smircle]

The DVD player app in 5G27 dates from 12th of august, nearly three weeks ago.
True, it performs like **** and crashes all the time, but I have a hard time believing the Apple DVD player team spent all the time scratching their balls (or pussies).
So, I am optimistic we will get a functional player come 26th of sept. either on CD or via download.

[awaspaas]

heehee "balls or pussies"

anyway, im not getting my hopes up.... the vikings have torn me apart one too many times!

[comgil]

Did anyone see the version provided with 5G33 or 5G36 ? It is said to look like a usable DVD player.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

True, it performs like **** and crashes all the time, but I have a hard time believing the Apple DVD player team spent all the time scratching their balls (or pussies).

LOL.

I'm sure it will work fine. Apple has had a long-ass time to get it working....i don't understand the technical issues involved but I know that Apple only hires people with excellent education and experience. If Apple doesn't get it working it's no sweat for me, I'll just keep using OS 9!

[Hornet]

Don't worry folks, the Apple DVD team have done a fantastic job with the DVD player. Due to shakey foundations in the OS as of the last few weeks (5G1x and 5G2x builds), the DVD player has performed poorly. Jobs was running a CUSTOMISED build of DVD player on his 5F25, which was designed AROUND the foundations of that build.

Put simply: Apple's DVD team CAN NOT move their code around fast enough to have a build of DVD player working PROPERLY with the foundations of OSX, which are changing at a rapid rate as of late (5xxx builds). So, their general target has been a pre-defined base to build on, decided by the OSX team's back in april. With this goal in mind, DVD player is now mostly complete, and when OSX reaches the pre-defined foundation its aiming for, it will work great. Jobs had the team work on a specific cut for his demo, where they took 5F25, and worked around it. It took them a while, meaning they wouldn't be able to do 2 builds a day of DVD player optimised for each build of OSX thats coming out of Apple a day as of late.

As I said, don't worry. 5G38 is very close to the foundations they are aiming for, and as a result, DVD player is working well. People who have tried 5G38 know this (I doubt many around here have it, its for "close" ppls only atm). My friend will hopefully show me it this weekend. The same friend who told me all this, and I believe him - he works close to the source shall we say.

Although, would he be saying "foundations" to simplify it for me (I have NFI how OSX works deep down really), thats an over-generalistic term I think, hmmmm

In any case, DVD ain't lookin bad at all And besides, Apple promised it, they wont back down on what they have marketed enough. Apple knew, Steve knew, and most of all - the DVD team knew - that DVD was definately do-able for 10.1. And it has been done.

[DaveGee]

Originally posted by Hornet:
<STRONG>As I said, don't worry. 5G38 is very close to the foundations they are aiming for, and as a result, DVD player is working well. People who have tried 5G38 know this (I doubt many around here have it, its for "close" ppls only atm). My friend will hopefully show me it this weekend. The same friend who told me all this, and I believe him - he works close to the source shall we say.</STRONG>

I can't speak for build 38 but the player in 40 is very nice. And to answer a question from above NO you can't (with the Apple Grab App) take a screen shot when a DVD is playing you even get a dialog box telling as much. It must be some kind of copyright issue (near as I can tell). I'll have to see if the guy who has 40 can do a screen grab with a 3rd party app.

D

[oranjdisc]

Originally posted by adamtki:
<STRONG>
Also, for those who keep thinking that Apple gives us the crappy version just so the good version won't leak... Has this ever happened in the past with other products? I remember the hoardes of people who thought that the 4K78 RC build we got was intentionally slowed or had the debug builds so that we can all be surprised and amazed when the real thing is released. It obviously didn't turn out to be the case.

If Apple has a decent DVD player in the works, it's in their best interest to seed it to the developers for massive testing.</STRONG>

EXACTLY

I learned a good lesson after the 4K78/Wincent fiasco and the flat panel iMac rumors last month &gt;&gt; sometimes the most obvious answer is the RIGHT answer.

Apple isn't witholding a beefed up DVD player. That's bonkers. I obviously don't have proof, but common sense (and history) tells me otherwise.

We'll have DVD playback in 10.1, but it'll probably work about 60% of the time...for now.

Originally posted by Milio:
<STRONG>So does anybody think the Vikings will make it to the Superbowl?</STRONG>

Nope. Randy Moss is spending to much time working on Apple's DVD player.

Does anyone remember the music player in the public beta? It is gone... replaced by iTunes. I bet the DVD player is being replaced by something better, perhaps in close connection to iDVD2. That would explain why the development build of the DVD player has not been updated for a while, it is being scrapped and something secret is being worked on in its place.

[Deicide]

This thread reminds me of the threads about builds before the final release of MacOS X. Everyone complaining about the speed was told to shut up and that it would be fast when the final came out. well we all know what happened. So far the Developer builds have been a very good measuring stick for the release versions.

Thanks for the info Hornet. You told me just what I wanted to hear. I'm glad I started this thread to finally get some reassurance that DVD is on track for the 10.1 release.

Thanks MacNN!

[Hornet]

No problem.

I'll try that Snapz Pro app with the DVD player in G38 when I try it this weekend (hopefully, tho my friend is going away for 2 weeks soon, just hope his flight isn't this saturday!! ). Who knows, Apple will probably have seeded him a 5G4x build by then.

Dave, interesting. I wonder how 40 compares to 38? Probably a little better (I mean the dvd player). Well, one things for sure, DVD will be fine in the final release.

Now if only my G4/466 had a DVD drive........

[Scrod]

I don't think there's any reason to worry about the lack of a DVD player or a poorly functioning DVD player in OS X 10.1. Apple has quite a bit of pressure on them to get this thing done by September. Heck--they're ALREADY late. The time it's taken to develop the DVD app itself has probably been very minimal. It's the foundations of the operating system that haven't been cooperating up until this point.

[DaveGee]

Originally posted by Hornet:
<STRONG>No problem.

I'll try that Snapz Pro app with the DVD player in G38 when I try it this weekend (hopefully, tho my friend is going away for 2 weeks soon,.</STRONG>

Don't bother... 'been their, done that' While it does capture the screen the dvd is just a big black box. Funny thing is if you open the 'cap' and place it over a playing DVD the dvd can be seen. kinda like cutting out a hole in a piece of paper and then holding that paper over the screen. It's really weird.

D

Originally posted by DaveGee:
<STRONG>

Don't bother... 'been their, done that' While it does capture the screen the dvd is just a big black box. Funny thing is if you open the 'cap' and place it over a playing DVD the dvd can be seen. kinda like cutting out a hole in a piece of paper and then holding that paper over the screen. It's really weird.

D</STRONG>

Makers of graphic cards that have built-in video capture have been doing stuff like this for a long time to support real-time preview of captured video. The capture application just provides a blank window and tells the graphics hardware the geometry of the visible portion of the window's interior. The graphics hardware then directly overlays the digitized video, letting the computer's main processor do other things. The XClaim VR in my PowerCenter works that way; I know because I've had the OS lock up while previewing video and the video just kept going. Talk about weird!

I suspect Apple has to do something similar with its DVD Player application, providing a blank window within Aqua and then bypassing the regular graphics system to display the video within the borders of that window, probably requiring a kernel extension to support it. Screen capture utilities such as Grab and Snapz Pro must work within the confines of the graphics system, so they can't get access to the overlaid video. That's just an educated guess, of course, but it seems reasonable from a performance standpoint.

[starfleetX]

Screen capture utilities such as Grab and Snapz Pro must work within the confines of the graphics system, so they can't get access to the overlaid video.

Exactly correct! I'm glad someone else here isn't making stupid guesses.

However, Andrew was once talking about grabbing the pixels from hardware somehow but that it would be a radically different approach than what he had been working on. Originally this idea was brought up as a possible solution to Spanz Pro X not capturing certain graphics cards (including my AGP Radeon) that go into a Planar Mode when OpenGL kicks in full-screen (like in Quake 3).

Any word on this Andrew (moki)? Would it work with the DVD?