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windows on external drive?
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bbales
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Apr 11, 2009, 10:09 AM
 
I'm getting ready to install windows. Got the updated parallels and will soon have a windows OS. (But it's Easter weekend, my kids are home, my mother-in-law is in the hospital and I'm a little frazzled...)

I'm worried about viruses, etc., especially as something has just invaded the home Windows machine). I was thinking of installing Windows on an external, and then just using it as needed, which will not be that often. I'm nearly certain that when I looked into this quite some time ago it was possible.

Anyone have experience doing it this way? Does it work OK?
     
angelmb
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Apr 11, 2009, 11:15 AM
 
No idea really. As for the viruses, I would get the free AVG AntiVirus.
     
ghporter
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Apr 11, 2009, 11:15 AM
 
Running a Windows VM off an external drive under Parallels shouldn't be a problem, while actually BOOTING Windows from an external is a different matter! But what you really need to protect yourself is an antivirus program that runs ANYTIME Windows is running. And even the best antivirus can't protect Windows against the user; you have to be careful where you surf and what you click on when you're running any flavor of Windows.

On the flip side, if you don't have Windows running, nothing that impacts Windows can hurt your Mac.

So go for it the way you're planning, but download ClamAV or Avast! or one of the other free antivirus packages and install it RIGHT AWAY. Then configure it to monitor your Windows installation in real time, and if possible to update its virus definitions automatically. Once you've done that, you're as safe as you can be with any Windows installation. Just be careful.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
seanc
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Apr 11, 2009, 11:23 AM
 
You may have just prompted me to finish off my project and write a tutorial on booting Windows from an External drive. It's not simple, but it should work... it worked a few years ago.
     
ghporter
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Apr 11, 2009, 12:47 PM
 
The last method I saw involved hacking important Windows files to get the pre-boot system to maintain connections with USB ports that BIOS set up... If there's an easier way, I'd love to see it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
seanc
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Apr 11, 2009, 12:52 PM
 
No, there isn't an easier way, you still have to hack the files up so that it loads the drivers earlier.
     
ghporter
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Apr 11, 2009, 02:06 PM
 
Crap. That method has "buggered up" written all over it. One little goof with hacking those files and your effort and time are wasted-until you try again, of course. Which anyone who would try this WOULD do...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
seanc
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Apr 11, 2009, 03:08 PM
 
I had thought I'd saved the files from last time, but apparently not - I've made them again.

I actually have a drive that should work once I reset the registry to use the default devices rather than the custom ones from Virtual Box.

Edit: They may well be on an old server. I'll have a look soon.
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 16, 2009, 03:47 PM
 
Well, I sure am glad I checked back. I was about to install Windows last night on the external. I'm getting that I can install it, but may not be able to run it? That would not be good, obviously.

So I should probably just go ahead, install it where parallels wants to, and get anti-virus software. (My plan for the external would be that then I could disconnect it easily and only plug the external in when I need it.) But, I can also just fire up Windows only when I need it, too...

Why is it hard to get Windows to work from the external, if I may ask?
     
ghporter
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Apr 16, 2009, 04:29 PM
 
When a PC boots, it's firmware, called "BIOS," identifies all its USB and Firewire ports, along with things like serial and parallel ports. Once Windows starts, it dumps that data and scans for all the ports itself. This has the effect of disconnecting any external drives connected at boot time, at least until Windows finishes its scan. And that means that anything running from the external drive would be "lost" by the program in memory and the program would crash.

The hack to allow booting from an external drive has Windows skip its own scan (or use the scan to verify what BIOS reported), but since this is deep in the startup code, it's not at all simple to change-it's not like there's a simple script that the code uses to manage booting.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 16, 2009, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
When a PC boots, it's firmware, called "BIOS," identifies all its USB and Firewire ports, along with things like serial and parallel ports. Once Windows starts, it dumps that data and scans for all the ports itself. This has the effect of disconnecting any external drives connected at boot time, at least until Windows finishes its scan. And that means that anything running from the external drive would be "lost" by the program in memory and the program would crash.

The hack to allow booting from an external drive has Windows skip its own scan (or use the scan to verify what BIOS reported), but since this is deep in the startup code, it's not at all simple to change-it's not like there's a simple script that the code uses to manage booting.
Thanks for the reply! I think this is definitely beyond any capabilities I may possess. I'm already leery about doing the install, for fear it will drive my iMac crazy, let alone making myself crazy by changing things.

It's not that difficult to do this, is it????? Feeling squeamish, as I said...
     
seanc
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Apr 17, 2009, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by bbales View Post
Thanks for the reply! I think this is definitely beyond any capabilities I may possess. I'm already leery about doing the install, for fear it will drive my iMac crazy, let alone making myself crazy by changing things.

It's not that difficult to do this, is it????? Feeling squeamish, as I said...
If you only want to run the parallels installation VIRTUALLY then that's fine - the hard drive file can live on the external drive - it doesn't care where it lives.

If you want to boot windows NATIVELY (rebooting the entire Mac into Windows) it MUST be on an internal drive because Windows doesn't load the drivers for the USB or Firewire ports until it has booted up properly.
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 17, 2009, 03:13 PM
 
OK, what do most people do? I'm having a hard time imagining needing to boot the entire machine into Windows. That's why I'm doing parallels, instead of boot camp -- I didn't want to have to reboot anything. I only need to run, at this point, one program. (Of course, if this works well, maybe I'll find a few more that would make my life easier!)

So -- why would I need to boot the entire machine into windows? Do most people do that?

Sorry for being stupid.
     
seanc
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Apr 17, 2009, 03:16 PM
 
If you want to play games or do something demanding, then you'd need to boot into Windows to take full advantage of the graphics processor and resources of the computer.
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 17, 2009, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by seanc View Post
If you want to play games or do something demanding, then you'd need to boot into Windows to take full advantage of the graphics processor and resources of the computer.
OK, that makes sense. Mostly, the only game I play on windows is freecell, which I love. (Hey, I've gotten to 73 games won in a row, twice! Current average above 90 percent...)

I would imagine it's possible to do a VM on the external and then, if my needs change, uninstall and then reinstall on the actual drive?
     
ghporter
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Apr 17, 2009, 05:09 PM
 
It all comes down to what software you want/need to run under Windows. If the software NEEDS access to all the computer's hardware (especially USB ports), it probably needs to be booted into Windows. If not, you can use Parallels without any problem at all.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 17, 2009, 05:32 PM
 
Hmmmm, USB ports might be handy for backups to a thumb drive. But a necessity would be a printer. Will wireless printing work?
     
ibook_steve
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Apr 17, 2009, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
It all comes down to what software you want/need to run under Windows. If the software NEEDS access to all the computer's hardware (especially USB ports), it probably needs to be booted into Windows. If not, you can use Parallels without any problem at all.
Hmm? USB ports work fine for me in Parallels, even strange devices.

Steve
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ghporter
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Apr 17, 2009, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by ibook_steve View Post
Hmm? USB ports work fine for me in Parallels, even strange devices.

Steve
It's taken me some work to get them working consistently with my installation. Of course I'm still using Parallels 2...(because they waited until right after I bought that to come out with 3...)

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 17, 2009, 07:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
It's taken me some work to get them working consistently with my installation. Of course I'm still using Parallels 2...(because they waited until right after I bought that to come out with 3...)
And isn't that always the way! Come on Glenn (that is your name, isn't it? maybe I'm wrong) -- upgrade!

Tomorrow's the day! Off to Windows land I go.
     
ibook_steve
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Apr 17, 2009, 07:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
It's taken me some work to get them working consistently with my installation. Of course I'm still using Parallels 2...(because they waited until right after I bought that to come out with 3...)
Yes, 4.0 is very compatible. I have as yet to find a USB device that doesn't work with it.

Steve
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bbales  (op)
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Apr 18, 2009, 06:55 PM
 
It works! Installed it on the external -- had to do some configuring, but very little. Went away and came back to Windows on my mac. (Things are runnign a little slowly, too, I might add. BUt I shut down some of my other programs on the Mac side and that helped.)

I just downloaded the AVG program. Went away while it was downloading and when I came back it had disappeared. Have NO clue as to where it went! But we have to go somewhere so I just shut everything down for now. I just don't know where things install on the Windows side...

Tomorrow I'll figure out printing and then install my Windows program(s) I need.

But pretty slick! Wouldn't have believed it...
     
seanc
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Apr 18, 2009, 07:23 PM
 
What version of Windows? If Vista then it's probably in your Downloads folder. There' s a picture of a file with your name on it on the desktop, double click it and you'll find folders like Documents, Music and Downloads in there.
Make sure to download Firefox as well and use it instead of Internet Explorer.

How much RAM does your Mac have?
     
cgc
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Apr 18, 2009, 09:45 PM
 
If you're getting Parallels, why would you use it on an external drive? If you do use Parallels, you don't have to worry about any of that BIOS hacking stuff since Parallels would provide that mechanism (you just tell Parallels where the Windows (or other OS) image file is).

Now running BootCamp off an external drive would be difficult...I don't see how Windows on it's own partition or virtual drive would present any security threats at all.
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 19, 2009, 12:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by seanc View Post
What version of Windows? If Vista then it's probably in your Downloads folder. There' s a picture of a file with your name on it on the desktop, double click it and you'll find folders like Documents, Music and Downloads in there.
Make sure to download Firefox as well and use it instead of Internet Explorer.

How much RAM does your Mac have?
I believe it has 3 xxxx of Ram (been out all night -- totally not tracking on whatever it is that Ram has!) I downloaded Firefox right away and that worked flawlessly; it installed correctly, etc.

I'm pretty sure I looked in the downloads folder and didn't see it. I'll investigate further tomorrow. I'm just happy to have it up and running, but it's a little disconcerting to have a windows machine inside my Mac. yes, I know that's what I wanted, but I'm just not used to it!

Thanks for all the help.
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 19, 2009, 01:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
If you're getting Parallels, why would you use it on an external drive? If you do use Parallels, you don't have to worry about any of that BIOS hacking stuff since Parallels would provide that mechanism (you just tell Parallels where the Windows (or other OS) image file is).

Now running BootCamp off an external drive would be difficult...I don't see how Windows on it's own partition or virtual drive would present any security threats at all.
I wanted everything on an external because of fear of viruses and worms. This way, I just ejected the disk and windows was gone. Now, I don't know if I have to shut the drive off or physically disconnect it or not, and I didn't have time to investigate further tonight. I just didn't like the idea of an alwasy-on windows connection on my computer, when I was only going to be running a Windows program very sporadically.

That was my thinking for the external drive, at any rate.
     
ghporter
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Apr 19, 2009, 10:16 AM
 
You do NOT have to worry about a virtual machine in Parallels messing up your OS X system. Further, if Windows isn't running, no Windows malware can operate, so you wouldn't even have to disconnect the external drive you plan to put the VMs on.

As cgc says, a virtual Windows machine poses NO security threat to your OS X system. Further, you could make a copy of the freshly created VM and put it anywhere you like, so that if the VM you're using gets messed up, you can just delete it and replace it with a fresh copy. Parallels VMs aren't particularly big; my XP virtual machine is only a little bigger than 4GB.

But even if you do the whole "keep a fresh copy" thing for convenience, it's a good idea to simply run ClamAV on your virtual machine; it will protect you from malware very nicely and it's free. NO WORRIES. Really.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 19, 2009, 10:30 AM
 
The fresh copy is a good idea. I'll do that today. I'd written down the names of 3 free anti-virus programs people mentioned here and will by hook or by crook get one of them working as well. And I guess I don't need to be quite so cautious! We had what seemed to be a worm on our Windows machine and the computer started running extremely slowly, which was what started me on this odyssey in the first place. (My quicken files for a non-profit I'm involved with were on that machine!), so I'm pretty gun-shy at the moment.

I tell you, if I'd known how easy this was I would have done this a year or so ago! (Of course, I don't have printer capabilities yet, as far as I know (haven't tried), so maybe I'm speaking too soon.)

Thanks for all the help everyone.
     
cgc
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Apr 19, 2009, 10:43 AM
 
I have VMare Fusion and it includes McAffee Security Suite 2009, does Parallels offer something similar? If not, AVG is excellent.
     
ibook_steve
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Apr 19, 2009, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by cgc View Post
I have VMare Fusion and it includes McAffee Security Suite 2009, does Parallels offer something similar? If not, AVG is excellent.
Parallels includes Kapersky.

Steve
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ghporter
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Apr 19, 2009, 01:34 PM
 
I forgot about Kapersky...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
bbales  (op)
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Apr 22, 2009, 06:22 PM
 
I saw, after I'd installed the AVG software, that Parallels included a program. Oh well.

It works great! I wonder if it's a little slower than I thought it would be because it's on an external drive. But, as I'm only using one program, it's fine.

I didn't get my own printer added, and I was getting peeved, but I realized that -- and I don't understand this in the slightest; it's nearly magical to me -- with the tools installed, my virtual machine seems to believe I have an HP connected, and it prints to the non-existent HP. As I said, I like things to work the way they're supposed to, but since I only have to print Quicken reports, who cares? It works! I have printing. So I'm letting the part about not getting my OWN printer up and running go.
I must say, though, that free cell looks very strange in a virtual machine. I'm used to the version that came on XP. The cards seem blurry. Oh well, it's probably saving me a lot of time.
     
   
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