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tz3gm · Jan 24, 2001, 09:17 PM

hi there...

i'm really interested in the MacOS Project Builder and i have a little background in M$ Visual Basic...are some of the same techniques applied in Project Builder as in Visual Basic or is it REALLY different...i also wanted to know if you guys feel that Project Builder is superior to Visual Basic...(an honest opinion...) anyway, is Project Builder that easy to use and am i right in saying that it can be used to compile/build programs in C++, Objective-C and java? that would make it seem pretty powerful eh? it also has a built in de-bugger right? does anyone know of a place on the web other than apple's website that has info or reading on Project Builder, thanks, tz3gm

parallax · Jan 25, 2001, 12:10 AM

Well, there's a few things. PB is a tool that integrates things like cc, gdb (debugger), and a UI to make a powerful tool (coupled with InterfaceBuilder). I don't know what you mean by "Information on Project Builder", but if you want info on Cocoa, just head to devworld.apple.com and navigate from there. Yes, it can create programs in C++, Objective-C, Java, and sports an HTML editor (perhaps other things too). I've never used (or want to use) VB. VB is non-portable. Objective-C and Cocoa can be used on GNUstep as well (without difficult modification), basically combining forces with UNIX. There are several programs written with VB that haven't come to the Mac simply because it's too hard to port junk written with VB.

What do you mean by "techniques" ?

tz3gm · Jan 25, 2001, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by parallax:
Well, there's a few things. PB is a tool that integrates things like cc, gdb (debugger), and a UI to make a powerful tool (coupled with InterfaceBuilder). I don't know what you mean by "Information on Project Builder", but if you want info on Cocoa, just head to devworld.apple.com and navigate from there. Yes, it can create programs in C++, Objective-C, Java, and sports an HTML editor (perhaps other things too). I've never used (or want to use) VB. VB is non-portable. Objective-C and Cocoa can be used on GNUstep as well (without difficult modification), basically combining forces with UNIX. There are several programs written with VB that haven't come to the Mac simply because it's too hard to port junk written with VB.

What do you mean by "techniques" ?

okay, thanks for that response, you mean VB is that bad compared to PB? and also techniques means i guess website or books that show how to implement/program in objective c, thanks, tz3gm

Kristoff · Jan 25, 2001, 01:21 AM

Project Builder is an IDE.
Visual Basic is an IDE.
Similarity ends there.
<rant>
If you are looking for wizards that help you quickly throw together an application with limited use, limited perfomance, and limited scalability, then stick with M$ crap.
</rant>

parallax · Jan 25, 2001, 10:29 AM

OK, I see you really mean "Cocoa/ObjC" vs. "Win32/VB" rather than the tools by which to get there.

On the mac, you really have two choices. You could develop in the Mac API, Carbon, or the OPENstep one, Cocoa. Apple prefers (I guess), that you use Cocoa if you're a new developer, and I do too :-).

Cocoa lets you do have a lot of control over your application, but it also lets you create applications with little effort at all. Thus, if you wanted to make something processor-intensive no-nonsense GUI like Q]|[, you could most certainly do that� and fast (OmniGroup ported Q]|[ from scratch to Cocoa in a weekend).

As for books, there's Apple's ObjC book available in PDF on their dev site. But then again, OPENstep is new to a lot of people. The only people who have it down pat are the old NeXT people (and GNUstep people)

Why would you want other people to teach you techniques when you can pioneer those techniques yourself? :-)

Again, Cocoa is portable to GNUstep, VB/Win32 isn't portable *at all*.

If you'd prefer a more linear application, you can certainly use Carbon. You should only need one or two Cocoa examples to get yourself accustomed to it.

-parallax

eyadams · Jan 25, 2001, 02:01 PM

Going back to the original question...

Project Builder (PB) and Interface Builder (two programs that act together) have some superficial similarities to Visual Basic. With both you can "paint" an interface and define what code should be executed in response to user interface events.

But beyond that they are extremely different. PB lets you develop in several different languages (C, C++, Objective C, Java), using very different APIs (Cocoa, Carbon, Java), even letting you mix and match all of the above within one application.

If you're coming at this as someone with very little programming experience, you'll probably find PB more difficult to use than VB. But once you get over the learning curve, you'll see that there are some real benefits.

As to documentation, the best source is Apple's web site. They've got tutorials on creating applications using PB that include screen shots; have a look.

tz3gm · Jan 25, 2001, 02:38 PM

i thank all of you who have answered my posting re: PB vs. M$ VB, i am really excited and feel like a sponge wanting to learn more, i subscribed to the PB mailing list and scourged apple's site for info, if PB is as good as you all say and it seems that way, i hope more and more people will start to write programs for apple and maybe eventually we can even convert some windows programmers to write for the mac or even change over completely, the fact that one is able to program in java, C++, Objective C all integrated in one environment is GREAT, i really want to get my hands on PB and start to play with it, i've also read that there is documentation in the program itself, does anyone know how good that is? wanting to learn more....in hawaii, tz3gm =-)

davecom · Jan 25, 2001, 06:02 PM

Microsoft guys just don't get it at first - it's not about comparing crap to superiority - it's about changing the world. How you ask? By supporting a company that cares about the quality of its products and keeps its products superior to the competition on all fronts. This includes everything from programming environments to style.

But don't worry Microsoft converts - you'll get it after a year or so.

------------------
Think Different.

Angus_D · Jan 25, 2001, 06:14 PM

well actually MSVB is slightly portable in that REALbasic can import the .frm files or something, but a lot of the language is incompatible.

Cocoa would be a *LOT* more portable if Apple released an updated version of Yellow Box for Windows - read: Source level compatbility between OS X, Linux/GNUStep and Win32. Wheee!

Gametes · Jan 26, 2001, 02:00 AM

I've used MS Visual C++ Studio and PB, and I can tell you from the user perspective that they look very similar in UI, save for (as we all expected, of course) the fact that apple seems to have taken the UI that MS used and ran with it. Ran far.
The subtle tweaks, and even some outright deviations, are great and make using PB a lot more efficient and easy and intuitive (which was very important because I didn't know much at all about programming when I began).

Also, ObjC is a much more minimalist language than C++. It is more abstract but less obscure, so much simpler but more flexible in my opinion.
It is also much less duck-tape and bubble-gum if you ask me. The implementation seems coherent and well thought out, while C++ always struck me as having been one on-the-spot fic for a problem after another.

Since PB is free, I guess that settles at least one question.

Is it true that you can compile C++ with PB? I guess since it is all just a front for the gnu compiler it should, but that seems strange. Can anyone truly confirm this? Have you personally built programs only in C++ with PB?

tz3gm · Jan 26, 2001, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Gametes:
I've used MS Visual C++ Studio and PB, and I can tell you from the user perspective that they look very similar in UI, save for (as we all expected, of course) the fact that apple seems to have taken the UI that MS used and ran with it. Ran far.
The subtle tweaks, and even some outright deviations, are great and make using PB a lot more efficient and easy and intuitive (which was very important because I didn't know much at all about programming when I began).

Also, ObjC is a much more minimalist language than C++. It is more abstract but less obscure, so much simpler but more flexible in my opinion.
It is also much less duck-tape and bubble-gum if you ask me. The implementation seems coherent and well thought out, while C++ always struck me as having been one on-the-spot fic for a problem after another.

Since PB is free, I guess that settles at least one question.

Is it true that you can compile C++ with PB? I guess since it is all just a front for the gnu compiler it should, but that seems strange. Can anyone truly confirm this? Have you personally built programs only in C++ with PB?

that is a question i would like answered also, i really want to program in PB/IB, but i don't know which programming language to start with, is it Java, is it C or is it something else? if it's java, there are alot of resources avaiable, does anyone know which book is good or which book is a good starter book to learn to program in a language which will teach me good/not bad programming techniques so i can get a good foundation on which to start on cocoa with and obj-c with, thanks, tz3gm

pls. let me know, as i have been reading day in and day out, all of apple's docs and i don't know what lang to take up so that i can learn cocoa/obj c easiest...

parallax · Jan 26, 2001, 03:22 PM

The usefulness of "easy learning a language" breaks down when it comes time to implement it. ObjC takes a bit more effort (not much) but it's so much easier to use once you get the hang of it. Keep in mind that OmniGroup ported Quake ]|[ (yes, I always bring this up) using Cocoa. Try doing the same thing in Java. If you want any kind of reasonable speed, you'll want to learn ObjC. Believe me, you can get an decent OpenGL app running in under 30 seconds coding from scratch.

Anyway, pretty much everything in the world that's worthwhile looking at is written in C, so it would do you good to learn C if nothing else.

Is it true that you can compile C++ with PB? I guess since it is all just a front for the gnu compiler it should, but that seems strange. Can anyone truly confirm this? Have you personally built programs only in C++ with PB?

Yes, it works. You can make simple I/O UNIX programs with project builder (and C++). But you can't use C++ with Cocoa. You need to use ObjC.

parallax · Jan 26, 2001, 03:23 PM

pls. let me know, as i have been reading day in and day out, all of apple's docs and i don't know what lang to take up so that i can learn cocoa/obj c easiest...

Dude, you could've learned, like, 30 languages by now. Go learn C/ObjC right now!

davecom · Jan 26, 2001, 08:18 PM

Project Builder is simply and IDE which currently links to two compilers but will be able to link to more in the future. The two compilers are cc and javac. This means the following languages can be used right now - Objective C and Java with cocoa - c, c++ in Carbon - and java with the java api. Also some of the libraries can be combined for example carbon and cocoa or java and cocoa.

This will answer many questions.

------------------
Think Different.

Angus_D · Jan 27, 2001, 06:22 AM

well actually there's an example of how to call carbon/c++ over here: http://developer.apple.com/samplecod...bon_or_C__.htm

Cocoa_With_Carbon_or_C++ is sample code that shows how to call Carbon routines and C++ code from within an Objective-C Cocoa program. The sample displays a window within which, depending upon the radio button selected, clicking the "Say Hello to the World" button will call functions that use Objective-C, C++, or Carbon respectively.

Durandalus · Jan 30, 2001, 07:38 AM

I've tried Realbasic for MacOSX and must say it is simple to learn. I went from zero to a simple image viewing application in a weekend. What really helped is the simplistic event model of Realbasic and the great Built-In reference which has great code examples. ProjectBuilder is a completely different beast, forcing you to program on a different level. After half a week I still can't open a Textfile programmatically;-). I think Apple needs to get their Cocoa documentation beefed up and post a few turorials. When you browse the Cocoa frameworks documentation there's still a lot of "description forthcoming" in there. On the other hand PB is free, which is unbelievable. A decent DevTool with PB's complexity usually costs a few dollars, OpenStep for Windows even used to cost a few grands I think. And now it's free.
What does interest me however is whether PB and Cocoa really are as good as Steve tells us (10x faster developement). Or is this still by a 1990 standard (or whenever NextStep came out). How does VisualC++ or Borlands C++ tools and frameworks compare to Cocoa?

parallax · Jan 30, 2001, 11:50 AM

Don't use Realbasic. Basic is an evil language that'll get you into bad habits. C is a much more elegant language, and ObjC even more so. You don't really need any Apple-made tutorials to get you through Cocoa- try the Vermont Recipes. Yes, Cocoa documentation is limited, but these forums and mailing lists can serve just as well

Gametes · Jan 30, 2001, 01:42 PM

By the way duran, he's talking about these vermont recipes.
Down home cooking...

Angus_D · Jan 30, 2001, 03:30 PM

Rhap_DiscOS.pdf is pretty good. You need to do some thinking yourself, as well, since the source is unavailable,and some things are out of date. I got TravelAdvisor.app up and working with a little bit of thought and prodding

graphiteman · Feb 4, 2001, 02:18 PM

I suggest that you try REALbasic. It is very easy to use and you can create apps for Mac OS X and Mac OS 9 literally in seconds. Most of the code is similar to VB and it can import VB projects, I think (I've never used VB). There are a lot of resources out for REALbasic as well.

Angus_D · Feb 5, 2001, 03:06 PM

Except that REALbasic sucks and you'd be better off using Cocoa, which probably isn't that much more difficult to learn (apart from the fact it's slightly less documented). However, RB randomly corrupts project files, and as of version 3's new file format (which is better than 2s), is extremely slow when working with large projects. Trust me, I'm talking from experience. That's not to say I don't use it though, I know it a darned lot more than I know Cocoa, and it works on OS 9 mainly, which I go through stages of using. Oh, and technically Quake III by OmniGroup isn't actually a Cocoa app, it's built off of IOKit and only uses Cocoa functions for a tiny part of the code.

parallax · Feb 5, 2001, 05:31 PM

Alright, so I cheated when saying that Q]|[ is Cocoa, but it sure as hell uses a lot more Cocoa than RealBasic :-)

BASIC, in general, is _not_ a very good language to work with. Although, there are resources for BASIC users, all of the theory and algorithms that you'd care about are ported to either Assembly, Pascal, or C (These days more C than the other two). Only the super-important ones are explained on some VB sites, and even _these_ are superficial.

You'll never get intimate with OS X using RealBasic alone.