[Jerommeke]

It should have been fixed already, because this is not a feature but a bug. But 10.3.5 may bring any improvements?

Further investigation has learned it probably has something to do with Safari running, instead of with iTunes. Yesterday I have been running Camino all the time, and it didn't happen at all. In all the cases freezing, Safari was running, sometimes with no windows opened.

[Spliff]

Originally posted by Busemann:
Something tells me this is going to be fixed in 10.4 *crosses fingers*

Lets just hope it dont freeze too much during the bittorent leeching in a couple of weeks time

Over at Macintouch.com today, one person fingers the version of Python that ships with Panther that is causing Bittorrent clients to lockup the OS.

Jun. 16, 2004

Jeremy Ginsburg
Rob Pfile mentions switching back to Tomato Torrent as his bittorrent client. Based on my experience and Internet investigations, Tomato Torrent and the Official Bittorrent Client can both cause Macs to hard lock under Panther. Apparently there is a problem with the version of Python shipping on Panther, which these clients use to implement the bittorrent protocol; this problem can be solved by using Fink to upgrade to the latest version of Python. Assuming that Azureus doesn't use Python also, you may not be free of hard lockups just by switching to the other clients.

Jeff Hirsch
I have also experienced consistent lock-ups with the very latest version of Azureus (2.1.0.0) that completely froze my Dual 1.42 G4 system running 10.3.4. (And I do mean FROZEN. No force quitting, no login via remote ssh to issue a reboot.)

However, reverting back to the previous version (2.0.8.4) resolved the issue immediately. Looks like the latest and greatest isn't quite ready for prime time. (It's a shame too, because they've resolved some long standing display issues.) Ah well, I'll take stability over appearance. I suggest users downgrade until a new version is released.


Marc Marshall
I'm another G5 (2.0DP) owner who also uses Azureus, and I'd like to chip in my slightly more detailed confirmation of the problems others reported. In short, Azureus 2.0.8.4 will usually cause a standard kernel panic after about a week of use. Version 2.1.0.0 repeatably caused systemwide freezes or kernel panics within 5 minutes of starting it, and I could find no fix.
More detail for those interested: Using the previous stable OSX-specific version of Azureus (2.0.8.4) and either 10.3.3 or 10.3.4 with all current updates, I will get a kernel panic after somewhere between 3 and 6 days of running Azureus. As far as I can tell, the amount of time Azureus is running during this period isn't significant--once it has been run, the crash will eventually occur.

[aehaas]

I have a basic 1.8 without any 3rd party stuff. Last week I had one of these system wide freezes (for first time). I held the start button for 10 seconds to restart, fixed permissions, ran disc utility, fsck x 3 (bunch of stuff fixed). Then I wrote it off.

I previously did a 10.3.4 upgrade with the full file.

Today, same freeze. I was on AOL via dialup and using Safari.

aehaas

[macgyvr64]

I'm going to try updating Python via Fink...10.3.4 has locked up several times in the last few days using the latest BT client.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally posted by Spliff:
My machine never, ever had this problem under Jaguar. As so as I upgraded to Panther with it's new VM-management system, the freezes began. Defragging my HD fixes them until the fragmentation gets bad again. It's reproducible and it's clearly a flaw in the OS.

Yep, it is all down to fragmentation as I said in the first few pages off the thread...

Forget Airport, etc, VM is where the problem is at.

[macgyvr64]

I updated Python...nothing bad yet...

[TommyLeeRoth]

Can anyone that's having the lockup problem (where the mouse still moves but nothing else does) try turning off the spin down hard disk option in energy saver and see if that helps? I think it solved the problem on two of my machines, while another machine I have has always has this option off and has never experienced the freeze.

[macgyvr64]

Mine is always off and I still get the problem.

[bunge]

Just something odd, this happened to me while I was on an audio chat and the audio still worked.

[Link]

Then note this is clearly a fault with the vm management system! Fragmentation isn't to blame but the program itself.

The fact of the matter is, certain tasks are more prone to cause this crash than others simply because they consume more VM or page out more often..

Instances of this are:

BitTorrent
iTunes
various browsers
Anything that uses airport
Mail program doing any kind of search
Mounting a disk image

Any others?

[Jerommeke]

Hmm it now happened with iTunes and Camino running which makes it even stranger.

[bremner770]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:


Yep, it is all down to fragmentation as I said in the first few pages off the thread...

Forget Airport, etc, VM is where the problem is at.

If that's the case how come I have been happily running for over a month now with every update since 10.3 except Airport and yet last week I updated the Airport to see if it had been fixed (after cloning to another drive incase it went wrong) and within 2 minutes was experiencing the same freezing problem. I then cloned my system back to how it was before the Airport update and I have had no problems. Did my system mysteriously become all fragmented while applying the update? I think not!

[ryju]

I started using a different BT client, I haven't had this freezing problem for a month or more now. 26 day uptime over here!

[bremner770]

Originally posted by ryju:
I started using a different BT client, I haven't had this freezing problem for a month or more now. 26 day uptime over here!

Here's a test for you. Try downloading a large file such as a Linux distribution and see if you get the freeze. I do every time. Try:

RedHat Fedora ISO Image

[Azzgunther]

Originally posted by ryju:
I started using a different BT client, I haven't had this freezing problem for a month or more now. 26 day uptime over here!

What client?

[waffffffle]

I am starting to get lockups again. Completely unpredictable and very annoying. It happens even when I'm not downloading a torrent.

[Link]

Let's all email this thread to [email protected]? I'm doing that right now.

Seriously I think it's time they don't stop hearing about this until they either:

1. Release a fix.

2. Say they're working on releasing a fix.

Comprende?

[stux]

Originally posted by nforcer:

Originally posted by ender2002:
One solution to the problem is to wait it out. For instance: One time my computer locked up with photoshop and itunes and safari, bittorrent, acquisition, and textedit. I had a really important (and unsaved) photoshop file and I didn't want to lose it. I turned off the monitor and waited for 4-5 minutes and BOOM. iTunes started cranking out music and it was all back to normal.

Try it

This is true. Sometimes it does unfreeze (happened to me twice, IIRC). I usually give it 5 to 10 minutes to unfreeze before I kill the power and start up again. Most of the time, it's just not practical to wait it out unless you are really desperate to get unsaved work back.

I still get these hard freezes (the itunes skippy thing)

And yes this does actually seem to work!

although I swear sometimes I used to have ones lasting all night...

Anywho, the last few times you let itunes limp through the current song, then I turn the speakers up full-blast, and sure enough, in 5-15 minutes or so iTunes kicks in again when it switches to the next song.

Even happens with the latest panther updates.

[stux]

Originally posted by The Placid Casual:
Well, I have been running my new 1.8 Dual G5 for about a week now. No problems.

This morning I used the fatal combination of iTunes, Acquisition, and Safari.

Boom.

4 crashes in the last 2 hours.

Screen freezes. Occasional bursts of music. Can't SSH to the box.

Only way to escape is a hard reboot.



I think it is linked to iTunes and heavy network activity as that's what I've been doing every time it has locked up.

Yes, I took a break from bittrorrent for a while... looks like a took a break rom the freezes as well...

Anywho, I've stared using bittorrent again, and now I'm getting the bittorrent+itunes skippy freezes...

of course they happened 6 times in 3 days... I was waiting them out by taking those as my cues for 'midday' and evening meals... heh, the freeze was regular enough that I didn't starve

anywho, i restarted with some security update, so we'll see, it really seems to happen to me after say 2 weeks of uptime.

[stux]

Originally posted by Azzgunther:
The one solution that will work for almost everybody is to simply downgrade to 10.3.0.

I get freezes with:
10.3.1
10.3.2
10.3.3

Never with 10.3.0. I REALLY hope Apple is working hard on this. 10.3.3 was a pleasure compared to 10.3.0 until it started freezing.

Nope, I experienced the skippy freeze within 1 hr of installing 10.3.0 the first time round, and Jag had been rock-solid stable for months.

[stux]

Originally posted by Link:
I find it funny but almost everyone's pet 'chore' that kills the machine is different..

For some it's running itunes..

for others it's airport..

for some it's games

and then there's disk image mounting. This is funny ;D

Heh, that makes sense tho

Everyone uses their computers differently (at least slightly)

my pet chore is playing itunes, while downloading with bittorrent and compiling with codewarrior...

[aehaas]

I had the "black screen of death" again when waking my dp800 from sleep. I have not had this since ? 10.3.0 or 10.3.1 maybe. It only occurred once after having the machine on for a week or so, using only sleep mode when not actually being used.

There are some new gremlins in this 10.3.4.

aehaas

[badtz]

I still get this [some weeks VERY often (2-3 times/day), some weeks LESS often (1/week)] ....

In my case, I believe it's network related.

[SKP909]

"Further investigation has learned it probably has something to do with Safari running, instead of with iTunes. Yesterday I have been running Camino all the time, and it didn't happen at all. In all the cases freezing, Safari was running, sometimes with no windows opened." (the quote button was doing anything)

I dunno about that, i have not had 1 single freeze or lock up under this 10.3.4 os
I do use safari every day and itunes too. I have never loaded bit torrent or azureus on this pb tho.

I have two friends who are having major lock up and freeze probs, to the extent they have gone back to older OS versions to try and fix it... They both use Azureus and bit torrent...
Or isit the VM maybe?

Hmm any new ideas anyone?

[jokell82]

Originally posted by SKP909:
"Further investigation has learned it probably has something to do with Safari running, instead of with iTunes. Yesterday I have been running Camino all the time, and it didn't happen at all. In all the cases freezing, Safari was running, sometimes with no windows opened." (the quote button was doing anything)

I dunno about that, i have not had 1 single freeze or lock up under this 10.3.4 os
I do use safari every day and itunes too. I have never loaded bit torrent or azureus on this pb tho.

I have two friends who are having major lock up and freeze probs, to the extent they have gone back to older OS versions to try and fix it... They both use Azureus and bit torrent...
Or isit the VM maybe?

Hmm any new ideas anyone?

Ever consider that it's Safari related but doesn't affect everyone?

[Krypton]

I cleared quite a bit of disk space so VM could roam free...

But the freezes came back.

[Azzgunther]

Originally posted by Krypton:
I cleared quite a bit of disk space so VM could roam free...

But the freezes came back.

Do you use any p2p apps or bittorrent?

[Link]

Originally posted by SKP909:
"Further investigation has learned it probably has something to do with Safari running, instead of with iTunes. Yesterday I have been running Camino all the time, and it didn't happen at all. In all the cases freezing, Safari was running, sometimes with no windows opened." (the quote button was doing anything)

I dunno about that, i have not had 1 single freeze or lock up under this 10.3.4 os
I do use safari every day and itunes too. I have never loaded bit torrent or azureus on this pb tho.

I have two friends who are having major lock up and freeze probs, to the extent they have gone back to older OS versions to try and fix it... They both use Azureus and bit torrent...
Or isit the VM maybe?

Hmm any new ideas anyone?

It's not safari at all. I ran camino exclusively and my machine bombed regularly, right now I'm running safari and it still bombs regularly.

It will bomb with or without itunes..
with or without mail, ichat, xchat, etc

I don't even USE bittorrent and the only P2P I've touched in the past few months was poisoned when I was looking for some BSD files and well.. I haven't done it since

[Chris O'Brien]

I've only had a cursory glance over the thread, so if someone's already mentioned something similar to what I'm about to say, then I apologise.

I haven't had a freeze in about a month, but last time it did, I went down stairs to my housemates iBook and ssh'd into my Mac. Coregraphics was running at 99.7% CPU. I could still do everything with my mac over ssh, even making it speak using osascript and applescript and play songs via itunes.

I wonder what's causing coregraphics to do this... It's a small comfort to know that everything still works, I just can't see things happening.

[bremner770]

Originally posted by Black Book:
I've only had a cursory glance over the thread, so if someone's already mentioned something similar to what I'm about to say, then I apologise.

I haven't had a freeze in about a month, but last time it did, I went down stairs to my housemates iBook and ssh'd into my Mac. Coregraphics was running at 99.7% CPU. I could still do everything with my mac over ssh, even making it speak using osascript and applescript and play songs via itunes.

I wonder what's causing coregraphics to do this... It's a small comfort to know that everything still works, I just can't see things happening.

I don't think this is the same problem. The problem that this thread started off discussing is one where the machine totally locks up with the exception of the mouse pointer which can still be moved. Any attempt to remotely login to check out what process is hogging the processor fails as you can't login either.

Very frustrating! I can prevent it happening by not installing any Airport updates since 10.3 however I'm sure this will come back to bite me in the future, e.g. will I fully be able to you Airport Express and AirTunes? Anyway for now I'm just happy that I have a working machine that is fully up to date (Airport excepted) and runs perfectly.

[Chris O'Brien]

Oh, I thought he was saying that he could move the mouse but nothing else would change on the display - which is what happened to me.

I didn't see any mention of not being able to remotely log in. Sorry if there was.

[bremner770]

Originally posted by Black Book:
Oh, I thought he was saying that he could move the mouse but nothing else would change on the display - which is what happened to me.

I didn't see any mention of not being able to remotely log in. Sorry if there was.

No problem. I think this thread has become the 'official' MacNN forum thread for any freezes on Panther so it's quite easy to become confused as to what the symptoms are and what might be causing it. What I can't understand is Apple's continued silence on the subject. If they can't replicate it then I would happily send them my laptop with detailed instructions on how to cause it to happen.

[RealMac]

Has anyone here tried reverting the behavior of the dynamic_pager (Communicates with the kernel�s default pager to create or delete the swap files (in /private/var/vm); these files are used as backing store for virtual memory.) in Panther to that of Jaguar. I tried this and noticed my system has been much more stable. Been running Bit Torrent as well as Acquisition with no problems. I did have a kernel panic while trying to install Garage Band a couple days ago but other than that, so far so good.

It's not a change for those who are lacking unix experience. The details are here in the Apple Discussions Forum:

This is another related thread related thread you may wish to read:
'huge swap files in 10.3.4'

I have had periods where audio got choppy, but the system stayed up. I had to boot off my external hard drive in order to be able to make this change. Hope this helps someone.

Basically, you're editing a line in the /etc/rc. Changing from dynamic_pager -F ${swapdir}/swapfile

to

dynamic_pager -H 40000000 -L 160000000 -S 80000000 -F ${swapdir}/swapfile

If you mess it up, your machine might not boot. For good measure you should just comment out the old line instead of deleting it. If you've tried this, let us know how it's working for you. I'm on 4 days uptime, swap files are using about 1.7Gb of space.

[pat++]

The problem definitely comes from the VM system.
I have 40days of uptime now, and it seems the freeze come more and more often. The good thing is that you just have to wait for the Mac to come back to life (it usually take 2 to 5 mn). I have 1 gb of swap right now, and experienced both, the freeze when only the mouse would move, and complete freeze. In both cases, you just have to wait. It will come back. btw, I don't use bittorrent, just basicMail, Safari, Terminal...

[willrob]

I use Cocktail which has many functions, one of which is to clear the swap files. I usually only do this when I've quite all large applications (Suitcase and Quickeys still run in the background). Is there any reason that clearing the swap files wouldn't solve the problem if it is only VM related? Does clearing the swap files by this method pose a greater risk of something else going wrong?

My freezes have been of the type where the cursor does not move and the system does not come back on its own, no matter how long I wait. They are typically triggered by quiting an application � often a small one like TextEdit, which I may be erroneously assuming isn't using much swap space.

[pimephalis]

I'm not sure how this will help or hinder the discussion, but I've solved my freezing problems (I believe). It involved replacing my wireless router (my linksys with a buffalotech). Since I've done the replacement, I've had not troubles with freezing despite pounding on the machine and the network.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Originally posted by Link:
Then note this is clearly a fault with the vm management system! Fragmentation isn't to blame but the program itself.

The fact of the matter is, certain tasks are more prone to cause this crash than others simply because they consume more VM or page out more often..

Instances of this are:

BitTorrent
iTunes
various browsers
Anything that uses airport
Mail program doing any kind of search
Mounting a disk image

Any others?

High intensity network/disk access apps.

Same with Virtual Memory, huge amounts of disk access.

OS X has NEVER been good at dealing with a lost/missing data stream. You used to have to wait 10 minutes for a computer to start up if they couldn't connect to the time server.

[Mac Hammer Fan]

My friend has a Dual G5 1.8 rev A and it suffers from random crashes. Apple Hardware test and Techtool Pro didn't detect anything. We even brought the machine back to the shop and there it was checked too. They told that the crashes were the result of too many files on his desktop! Can you believe that?
1 GB RAM is installed (4 x 256 MB)
We removed 2 of the RAM-modules (all 3200) and checked with 512 MB RAM twice.
We tried Cocktail.
No better result...
After re-installation of the system software and all the updates through the internet, the problem wasn't gone. We repaired the disk permissions and used Cache Out X without any result.
The computer freezes when a window is moved in the finder, unless the monitor is set to 256 colors. We can still move the mouse, but the G5 doesnt react anymore...
You hear some disk activity for a few seconds and then it's finished. Keyboard shortcuts don't help; we are unable to "force quit".
The problem seems to be related to the video-card (a Geforce 5200) or to its drivers since I assume that the card isn't accelerated in 256 colors.
A bug in Panther? Buggy drivers?
Or a bad video card?
Techtool Pro doesn't detect any damaged files...

My friend needs his computer for audio-editing and he can't wait 3 weeks. What a nightmare!

[willrob]

MacHammer:

ou'll find a discussion of the G5 freeze problem here:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/[email protected]/230

A lot of owners have discovered that the Samsung Ram supplied by Apple is at fault. When replaced, the freezes stop. Apple had a bad batch. No Ram test can detect the problem, apparently. If all the ram in his/her machine is Apple supplied/Samsung, then swaping Ram in and out won't detect the problem. If some of the ram is third party, remove the Apple ram and see if the problem goes away.

There have been some video card problems as well. It sounds like your friend's issue may be video card related.

[Mac Zealot]

My g4 has an apple supplied infineon stick in it.. hrmm maybe that could be at fault. I wouldn't be too surprised.

As said before I doubt network hardware is the cause because I've changed my network a few times now and seen no desirable result

[badtz]

@ 1st I thought it was my wireless connection [to a Dlink DI-713P router] ....

but I brought my powerbook to work, and connected it via ethernet, and it still experienced a freeze.

it froze right before I opened up a music file w/quicktime.


[and during that time, there was a lot of disc activity]

[tabarnak]

still getting them very often. fixed the permission and all. but there is one thing i've notice, everytime i get a freeze, iTunes is playing music. 5 minutes ago i had another one. 2 minutes before that, i've started iTunes, press play an not long ago, boom, freeze again.

i feel like using windows without the spyware, even OS 9 was more stable then panther for me

[tabarnak]

great, my iTunes librairy has been damaged with the last crash. it gave me a very very old backup of my library. everything is gone, i have to reimport half of my songs, ratings will probably be gone as play count. all my playlist gone too. but it doesn't matter for the playlist, it was based on ratings and playcount.

i never had these kind of problems in OS 9 days, just some freeze from time to time, but never these kinds of problems. it's the fisrt time i'm going to say that: i'm starting to hate computers.

[willrob]

There has been a discussion on MacIntouch.com about "iTunes freezes." Todays entries at

http://www.macintouch.com/itunes21.html#aug02

seem to indicate that (as we have long suspected) the real problem is with VM and swap files. Apple claims to be working on it.

[Krypton]

Originally posted by willrob:
There has been a discussion on MacIntouch.com about "iTunes freezes." Todays entries at

http://www.macintouch.com/itunes21.html#aug02

seem to indicate that (as we have long suspected) the real problem is with VM and swap files. Apple claims to be working on it.

I was just about to post that - I'm glad Apple knows exactly what it is, but it's really been too long since this was first reported

[willrob]

The link I posted to the MacIntouch.com article (since updated) mentions using a terminal application called hfsdebug.

http://www.kernelthread.com/software/hfsdebug/

While I've done some simple tasks with Terminal, I am by no means an expert. I am particulary ignorant of how to access the hfsdebug tool set. The link above does explain the commands, but doesn't bother with what the author feels is the rudimentary skill set which he expects the user to have. As someone who lacks that skill set, I'm wondering if anyone can clue me in on:
Where does one place hfsdebug?
Does one drag its icon into the Terminal window?
Is it accessed via a partiular Terminal command, such as one to open a file?

[Powaqqatsi]

The freezes are occuring since a month or se here. What apps did I have open with the last freeze: Finder, Mail, Safari, MSN Messenger, iTunes, Photoshop, ImageReady and Dreamweaver 2004. It really sucks as this is quite a burden on productivity when you all suddenly lose a lot of stuff that was unsaved. Also Safari seems to be one big memory leak and cpu hog, I think I'm switching to FireFox for now. The thing is the freezes also happen when those apps are almost as good as idle so no VM swapping is really necessary IMO, but hey I don't know anything about this technical stuff. I really really hope they fix it with 10.3.5 because I don't feel like doing a reinstall before 10.4 comes out.
Oh one more thing: my iTunes lib is fairly big: 8301 songs, 33,96GB. It seems that a lot of people with problems have a fairly big iTunes lib.

[Krypton]

There's no point listing the apps you use - it's completely random which app will run out of VM and freeze the whole system.

I pretty much despise Apple for this bug now, 2 crashes a day and it's really starting to aggravate me.

I'm thinking of distributing some desktop pics of the Pink Panther having a seizure - that should get someone's attention!

[Spliff]

Originally posted by Krypton:
I pretty much despise Apple for this bug now, 2 crashes a day and it's really starting to aggravate me.

Yeah, Apple really f*cked up big with this bug�a bug that frequently crashes a Unix-based system. It's like OS 8/9 all over again. That's a nice bit of engineering, Apple.

My fear is that they won't fix it until Tiger. Fortunately, I've mostly avoided this bug by frequently defragging my HD and by putting my Downloads folder on a separate external hard drive. That's really has made a difference.

[Link]

I finally found a partial solution for myself: Reinstall OS 10.2.

Yep, until 10.3.5 comes out (and someone here gives us news that it's fixed) -- I'm going to try and stay on 10.2.

So I let the installer start and took a nap on the sofa. When it was finished I eventually woke up to see a welcome screen on my monitor -- cool, went over, hit in some info and the desktop came up. No bitching about the pro speakers not working right -- they just worked like they should.

After trying a few apps and finally using camino to get around, I found it actually wasn't bad at all. The iTunes visualizer for some odd reason runs about 20fps faster now and everything just seems.. better.

Then again, I have to figure out how to situate GCC and the ancient dev tools since my ircd won't start :| *sigh* and many many programs don't work on 10.2 either.

*grumble* Oh well, partial apps and extra time setting up GCC is nothing compared to daily or twice a day crashing!!!

edit: After reinstalling my OS and currently being on 10.2, one of the underchat regulars (DS, thanks!!) points me out to this:

http://www.dshadow.com/software/unlockupd/

Unlockupd.. argh.