[mattyb]

This is from a sig. I'd like to understand what its supposed to show. I don't think that I'm alone.

Profile this: 2008 FBI Stats on Murder Offenders
Who's a murderer?
Men: 90%, Women: 10%
White: 46.2%, Black: 51.4%, Other: 2.4%

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

This is from a sig. I'd like to understand what its supposed to show.

I think it's supposed to show how all white folks are racist, or something.

[hyteckit]

Interpret however you want. Use it however you want. Depends on who or what group of people you want to scapegoat.

If you want to scapegoat illegal immigrants, find crime related stories committed by illegal immigrants.
If you want to scapegoat Jews, find crime related stories committed by Jews.
If you want to scapegoat black folks, find crime related stories committed by black folks.
If you want to scapegoat white folks, find crime related stories committed by white folks.

All without context.

Use it to justify anger toward a particular group. Use it to justify blaming a particular group. Use it to justify racial profiling a particular group.


It's in response to the recent Arizona immigration law scapegoating illegal immigrants and justify racial profiling of a particular group.

In Arizona, it's okay to demand papers for anyone looking like an illegal immigrant.
But what does an illegal immigrant look like?
Mexican?

What does a murderer look like?
Well:

Men: 90%, Women: 10%
White: 46.2%, Black: 51.4%, Other: 2.4%


Should we give policer officers the power to harass someone because they look like a murderer or rapist?

Do we just allow police officers to assume someone has committed a crime just based on a racial profile without probable cause, and give the officers the ability to toss someone in jail for failing to provide satisfactory papers?



Out of the following 3 states, which state has the highest rate of violent crimes: Alaska, Arizona, or California?

Hint: Arizona and California have a large number of illegal immigrants. Alaska is a very conservative state with guns. California is a very liberal state with one of the most restrictive gun laws.



California right? Nope.

It's Alaska.


FBI stats 2008, Crime Rate per 100,000 inhabitants

Table 5 - Crime in the United States 2008

Code:
State		Violent Crime	Forcible rape	Aggravated assault
Alaska		651.9		64.3		489.6
Arizona		447.0		25.7		265.9
California	503.8		24.2		285.0

Alaska wins out among the 3 as the highest rate of violent crime. Must be those illegal immigrants in Alaska.

[AKcrab]

YES! We WIN!

Oh.. Wait.

[mattyb]

Hmm. Floridas figures are quite interesting. They have quite a few immigrants and liberal gun laws. What about DC? Are the gun laws still tough there? Double the violent crime of Alaska.

What now?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Interpret however you want. Use it however you want. Depends on who or what group of people you want to scapegoat.

Perhaps some of us don't want to scapegoat any group. Bizarre, no?

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Use it to justify anger toward a particular group. Use it to justify blaming a particular group.

Lefties who believe government stats it is then.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Profile this: 2008 FBI Stats on Murder Offenders
Who's a murderer?
Men: 90%, Women: 10%
White: 46.2%, Black: 51.4%, Other: 2.4%

Given that he's using these figures as some kind of protest against racial profiling, isn't it something of a strawman?

I mean, murder's not the only crime on the books.
What if, on top of those figures, 80% of hispanics were rapists? Who in their right mind wouldn't support the profiling of hispanics in that case? It wouldn't alter the presented figures if none of those rapes ended in death.

[ghporter]

The data provided are also quite limited. They do not include anything about the social or economic status of either the convicted criminal or the victim. Simply stating some numbers without context isn't just a strawman argument, it's random data. The fact that a smaller segment of our population accounts for more than half of murders simply asks more questions. Who were the victims? Who were the perpetrators? Were they acquaintances or strangers? Were there any other factors such as drug use, gang activity, or other violent factors involved?

[olePigeon]

Are you saying there's a 64.3% chance Sarah Palin will rape our country if she wins the election?

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Are you saying there's a 64.3% chance Sarah Palin will rape our country if she wins the election?

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Are you saying there's a 64.3% chance Sarah Palin will rape our country if she wins the election?

You off yer meds again geezer?

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Are you saying there's a 64.3% chance Sarah Palin will rape our country if she wins the election?

And then she'll make the country pay for its own rape kit.

[BadKosh]

What are the crime stats for Washington DC? They have restrictive gun laws too.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

What are the crime stats for Washington DC? They have restrictive gun laws too.

I wondered about that above. Pretty high crime there according to the FBI link.

Of course its full of politicians and lobbyists, what do you expect?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

I wondered about that above. Pretty high crime there according to the FBI link.

Of course its full of politicians and lobbyists, what do you expect?

White collar crime is listed separately. Up until very recently, all indications were that the extremely restrictive gun laws in DC actually encouraged violent crime. These laws pretty much stated "law abiding citizens are completely unarmed, so have at it thugs!"

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Given that he's using these figures as some kind of protest against racial profiling, isn't it something of a strawman?

I mean, murder's not the only crime on the books.
What if, on top of those figures, 80% of hispanics were rapists? Who in their right mind wouldn't support the profiling of hispanics in that case? It wouldn't alter the presented figures if none of those rapes ended in death.

Forcible rape:

White: 65.2%, Black: 32.2%, Other: 2.6%

[hyteckit]

1994: Federal Assault Weapons Ban
1994: Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act
1995: Operation Ceasefire

Washington DC violent crime rates

Code:
Year	Violent Crime
1995	2,661.4
1996	2,469.8
1997	2,024.0
1998	1,718.5
1999	1,627.7
2000	1,507.9
2001	1,602.4
2002	1,632.9
2003	1,624.9
2004	1,371.2
2005	1,380.0
2006	1,508.4
2007	1,414.3
2008	1,437.7

US violent crime rate

Code:
1993     747.1
1994     713.6
1995     684.5
1996     636.6
1997     601.8
1999     523.0
2001     504.4     
2003     475.8
2004     465.5
2005     469.2
2008     454.5

[BlueSky]

I find it interesting that they've omitted statistics for consensual rape.

[subego]

Statutory rape isn't a violent crime.

[mattyb]

So what made US violent crime start to go down before the assault weapons ban and Brady? And what is the impact of this variable on the future drops along with the Assault weapons ban and Brady? Didn't the assault weapons ban sunset recently? Has there been a surge in violent crime? Gun crime?

[ghporter]

The AWB sunset in 2004. Note that the long term trend for violent crime has continued downward since then, even accelerating at times. Banning these firearms had the sole effect of making Democratic congresscritters feel all warm in the cockles of their hearts. Violent crime was impacted more by longer mandatory sentencing requirements than most other factors-and I believe this was only due to the fact that certain convicts were incarcerated for longer, keeping them from returning to their prior line of work. The sentencing guideline changes I refer to were begun under Reagan and finalized under GHW Bush.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Now if we'd only ban crime, I bet the crime rates would really drop.

Or something like that.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by BlueSky 

I find it interesting that they've omitted statistics for consensual rape.

Consensual Rape? There is no such thing. You mean statutory rape, which means the person or persons having sex is under the legal age of consent.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The AWB sunset in 2004. Note that the long term trend for violent crime has continued downward since then, even accelerating at times. Banning these firearms had the sole effect of making Democratic congresscritters feel all warm in the cockles of their hearts. Violent crime was impacted more by longer mandatory sentencing requirements than most other factors-and I believe this was only due to the fact that certain convicts were incarcerated for longer, keeping them from returning to their prior line of work. The sentencing guideline changes I refer to were begun under Reagan and finalized under GHW Bush.

If you subscribe to the conservative belief that gun control and illegal immigration leads to an increase violent crimes, then you would believe that violent crime would increase significantly during the period between 1994 to 2004.

Except contrary to conservative beliefs, violent crimes drop significantly from 1994 to 2004, by a whopping 35%.

The big drop in violent crime is the result of stricter federal gun control, better enforcement, and targeting gangs and gun violence.

[BadKosh]

So, how much of the violent crimes were done by the same thugs?(repeat offenders) How much violent crime was done by law abiding gun owners, which you are attempting to smear as associate with criminals? Since DC's gun ban seems to do nothing but leave law abiding citizens without household protection while the gangs and such have the big guns and such, how do you draw such conclusions? Obviously there must be other reasons, either cultural or something else.

[hyteckit]

Violent Crime Rate under Reagan/Bush I

There is a big increase in violent crimes from 1981 to 1992.

Code:
1980     596.6
1981     594.3
1982     571.1
1986     620.1
1988     637.2
1990     731.8
1992     757.5
1993     747.1

After Brady bill and tougher gun control

Code:
1994     713.6
1995     684.5
1996     636.6
1997     601.8
1999     523.0
2001     504.4     
2003     475.8
2004     465.5
2005     469.2

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Violent Crime Rate under Reagan/Bush I

There is a big increase in violent crimes from 1981 to 1992.

Code:
1980     596.6
1981     594.3
1982     571.1
1986     620.1
1988     637.2
1990     731.8
1992     757.5
1993     747.1

After Brady bill and tougher gun control

Code:
1994     713.6
1995     684.5
1996     636.6
1997     601.8
1999     523.0
2001     504.4     
2003     475.8
2004     465.5
2005     469.2

It took time to get a large number of repeat offenders off the streets. Once they were in prison, sentenced under the Reagan/Bush era sentencing guidelines, there were significant reductions in violent crime. There have been extremely few prosecutions under Brady that amounted to anything of note, and the "assault weapons ban" was a farce. The biggest result of the AWB was a number of companies that made firearm magazines simply quit that business. The fallout from that was that our armed forces were strapped for magazines in combat-and the M9 pistol magazines being used in the desert were failing so badly that many deaths of our troops could be attributed to them. Lovely effect from a do-nothing "gun control" bill, eh?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

It took time to get a large number of repeat offenders off the streets. Once they were in prison, sentenced under the Reagan/Bush era sentencing guidelines, there were significant reductions in violent crime.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

... and the "assault weapons ban" was a farce. The biggest result of the AWB was a number of companies that made firearm magazines simply quit that business. The fallout from that was that our armed forces were strapped for magazines in combat-and the M9 pistol magazines being used in the desert were failing so badly that many deaths of our troops could be attributed to them. Lovely effect from a do-nothing "gun control" bill, eh?

It's a *tie* for the 2 stupidest things ever uttered on the internet!

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

The big drop in violent crime is the result of stricter federal gun control, better enforcement, and targeting gangs and gun violence.

I don't think this is true. I'd go with Roe v Wade.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

It's a *tie* for the 2 stupidest things ever uttered on the internet!

Riveting analysis mckenna.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

It's a *tie* for the 2 stupidest things ever uttered on the internet!

Your opinion, you're entitled to it. Take a look at the cases involved and you'll see the implementation of stricter sentencing guidelines put more people away for longer. And you'll also see that very few cases were ever brought under Brady and that those were almost all fairly minor in nature. NO "hardened criminal" was ever put away due to Brady. The AWB was a farce for several reasons. No criminal use of a firearm was ever shown to be "more severe" because the criminal's firearm of choice was equipped with a bayonet lug, a flash hider, or an adjustable stock.

I think it should be very painful to a criminal to use a gun to commit a crime-and that such criminals should be put away for a very long time in a very unpleasant place. But the propensity of our federal legislators to blame the inanimate objects used by criminals rather than the criminals themselves for these behaviors is ludicrous. England gives us a very good object lesson in how banning weapons affects criminals: they move to the next available weapon. There is talk about (and maybe action on) strictly controlling kitchen cutlery in Britain because criminals have taken to using the basic chopping knife as a weapon. Punishing the behavior works a lot better than banning the item used-there are a good many drugs that are completely prohibited and yet thousands and thousands of people use them every day-often to their physical detriment.

I do not champion either Reagan or Bush for these sentencing guidelines, by the way. They are too rigid, and they go along with rather draconian "forfeiture" rules that have victimized people who were not involved in drug crime but were mis-identified or were barged in on through police error. But the removal of long-term criminals from the streets started and continues because there is less judicial leeway and more emphasis on observance of minimum sentencing which puts more people in prison for much longer periods. Brady is all about disarming the population, period. I'm sorry that Mr. Brady got hurt, but it was not a firearm that did that to him, it was a whack job who obtained a gun illegally. The AWB was feel good politics that did nothing to remove guns used by criminals on the street. The sunset of that law SIX YEARS AGO was not accompanied by an increase in crime-in fact the trend has continued downward since then.

[lpkmckenna]

You seemed to have missed my point entirely, which was mocking your laughable suggestion that the AWB caused troop deaths.

[Doofy]

Do you ever sit up at night and wonder why you've got no friends, mckenna?

[subego]

I am curious how the AWB lead to a decline in pistol magazine quality.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by subego 

I am curious how the AWB lead to a decline in pistol magazine quality.

It included a ban on "high capacity magazines." There was apparently not much of a market for small magazines, and a lot of manufacturers went into making other metal pressings. So manufacturers of military magazines went from dozens to two or three, and only one company was making magazines for the M9. They sucked. Beretta USA was not even making magazines for their pistol. Most troubling was the fact that the shoddy pistol magazines were subject to jamming when dirty, and they collected sand and dust, so desert use was problematic. One contractor for M16 magazines was brought back on even after they had been dumped due to the quality of their products, but they had made improvements so their magazines were not quite a shoddy as before.

When the AWB law sunset, a large number of metal pressing companies cranked up into production and in a very short time (a few months, I believe) most old M9 magazines were removed from service and replaced with much superior, new magazines.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Consensual Rape? There is no such thing. You mean statutory rape, which means the person or persons having sex is under the legal age of consent.

Nope, I meant consensual rape. When I saw "forcible rape" I wondered what other kind there was. Didn't think of statutory.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by BlueSky 

Nope, I meant consensual rape. When I saw "forcible rape" I wondered what other kind there was. Didn't think of statutory.

IC, you were trying to make a joke.

You forgot about statutory rape. That's why they needed to specify forcible rape as oppose to statutory rape.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

It took time to get a large number of repeat offenders off the streets. Once they were in prison, sentenced under the Reagan/Bush era sentencing guidelines, there were significant reductions in violent crime. There have been extremely few prosecutions under Brady that amounted to anything of note, and the "assault weapons ban" was a farce. The biggest result of the AWB was a number of companies that made firearm magazines simply quit that business. The fallout from that was that our armed forces were strapped for magazines in combat-and the M9 pistol magazines being used in the desert were failing so badly that many deaths of our troops could be attributed to them. Lovely effect from a do-nothing "gun control" bill, eh?

That's bit of a stretch.

You are attributing the quality of the weapons and ammo, to whether it's available for public consumption or not.

If grenades go off too quickly or don't go off at all, do you blame it being ban from public sale?

How about demanding better quality control from companies making weapons for our military?

Lots of military weapons aren't sold to the public. You don't argue we should start selling military weapons to the public to improve the quality of the weapons do you?


I would assume and demand weapons sold to the military to have better quality control than weapons sold to the public.


Mass produce doesn't mean quality is better.

We don't want our military driving toyotas with sudden acceleration and stuck pedal problems do you?

[hyteckit]

From US DOJ.

Notice an uptick in gun related crimes after 2004.



Ronald Reagan's policies reduce violent crimes?

Under Ronald Reagan.

Increase taxes, increase deficit, increase unemployment, increase in violent crimes.


But he is the best President because he is likable.

[BadKosh]

You should compare that to the Carter era before and see which one was better. High interest rates, no jobs, gas lines, no pride in the US, and a coward and inept international politician in the white house. A wimp.

No spending on the military.
The first wave of housing loans to those who couldn't afford it.
wearing a sweater around the white house instead of opening up oil drilling on land to decrease our dependence on foreign oil.
pathetic!

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

That's bit of a stretch.

You are attributing the quality of the weapons and ammo, to whether it's available for public consumption or not.

If grenades go off too quickly or don't go off at all, do you blame it being ban from public sale?

C'mon, think of all the armoured troops maimed and killed because the public can't buy their own tanks!

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Do you ever sit up at night and wonder why you've got no friends, mckenna?

All the time! Are you, like, psychic or something?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

That's bit of a stretch.

You are attributing the quality of the weapons and ammo, to whether it's available for public consumption or not.

Nope. I'm stating that so few companies made magazines during that time that only substandard producers were available to the military. And it isn't me attributing anything; the Army attributed the M9 magazine problem to improper phosphate coating (also known as "Parkerizing") of the M9 magazine parts. There's even a mention of this in the Wikipedia article on the M9 pistol.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

From US DOJ.

Notice an uptick in gun related crimes after 2004.



Ronald Reagan's policies reduce violent crimes?

Under Ronald Reagan.

Increase taxes, increase deficit, increase unemployment, increase in violent crimes.


But he is the best President because he is likable.

Can you post the context from which that graph was taken?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Can you post the context from which that graph was taken?

hyteckit.xls

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Can you post the context from which that graph was taken?

I felt bad for the ad hom. He's pulling his graph and related data from the following: USDOJ-Bureau of Justice Statitics

[ghporter]

Thanks, ebuddy. Somehow looking at those numbers, I don't see the peak/spike shown in hyteckit's graph...

[Snow-i]

And might i point out that the percentage of crimes committed with firearms consistently fell throughout...

The "spike" in the graph at around 1990 doesn't show any increase in the proportion of crimes which firearms were used. Simply a modification of the inputs to create the desired output.

[ebuddy]

What's bizarre to me is the statement; "Reagan's policies" as if that's somehow enough to establish a means of the spike. You could say "Democrat's policies" and it wouldn't be any less valid or meaningful. I mean, unless you can show me where Reagan issued an executive order for loosening gun control laws or something.

To the OP, hyteckit first brought "Profile this: 2008 FBI Stats..." into his sig during a debate on illegal immigration and/or Arizona's SB1070. I believe someone had cited the relationship between increases in the crime rate and an increase in illegal immigration and hyteckit didn't like it. Having exhausted any remotely sensible arguments, he quickly resorted to emoting about "profiling" and "stopping people for looking brown" and all sorts of gibberish, then finally snapped with the sig.

While the sig is supposed to indicate how absurd profiling is, all it does is remind the reader of how sensible it often is to do so. We got a possible Rape/Murder here people... okay Malone, I want you to scour this friggin' neighborhood for women with bent strap-ons! Louis? Wait, what am I thinking... forget that Malone, Louis... I want you to question every single person within a 2-block radius earning less than $10,000.00 a year got it?!? Now GO!

One hell of slippery slope either way I guess.

[Doofy]

See that downslope after '94? That's just Giuliani cleaning up NYC.