[besson3c]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Besides, I think you guys have your eyes in the wrong place. Maybe the real leaders are those bribing government who can't be voted out of office, and maybe politicians are their puppets? If you see things this way, wouldn't it be best to wage war against the puppet masters rather than the puppets?

Any thoughts about this point?

[subego]

Don't buy their shit.

Good luck with that.

[Shaddim]

It's easier to remove politicians from politics than billionaires.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It's easier to remove politicians from politics than billionaires.

But so what? The problem is neither the puppets nor their puppet masters are really being exposed, so we've just created a revolving door of puppets. We should work towards exposing the puppet master and providing these companies lots of bad PR, as well as outing the puppets.

[Shaddim]

See subego's previous statement, compound that with >90% of Americans not giving a shit.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

See subego's previous statement, compound that with >90% of Americans not giving a shit.

I'm well aware that >90% of Americans don't give a shit, but maybe as a society we ought to work more on doing what I'm describing, because >90% of Americans don't give a grease about which politicians are accepting bribes either. At least with my approach we can perhaps address the root problem?

I also don't understand why more people don't see it the way I do here, namely that conservatives seem to tend to dislike politicians more than companies that influence government, whereas liberals seem to tend to dislike the companies more, but really, they are the same basic entity. Fundamentally, both entities are just money/power seekers.

[Shaddim]

Because politicians swear an oath to be above such things and to represent us fairly, but all too often they break that promise and stab us in the back. Companies don't vow to do what's in our best interest, but our government does, and when they break that trust it's a much more damning thing. Companies and business people make money, that's what they do, they tread the legality tightrope every day, we should expect more from our government.

[ebuddy]

Remember, with regard to the money-interest in Washington -- we're not talking about "Pappy's Curious Goods" in the small shop downtown, we're talking about the monoliths; Big Corp who are eager to eliminate their smaller competition and have something the government wants or needs.

When we ask our government to do great big things for us in an otherwise free market capitalist society, Big Govt must turn to Big Corp to do it. Nation-building in the Middle East? Haliburton. Free or reduced drugs? Big Pharma. Increased home ownership? Big Lender... and so on. A marriage is born. These relationships create the loopholes and bureaucracy only the monoliths can survive which results in TBTFs. Bail outs and a legislative environment favorable to these TBTFs causes unnatural business models no longer subjected to normal market forces. Each addition to the US tax and/or regulatory code is a direct hit to businesses which many believe is "socking it to the rich" while in reality they are only creating congestion in the top 1-5% incomes at the same time eliminating the smaller competition; the ones who do not have a battery of attorneys and administrators to work the ridiculously complex codes. The largest ones with a distorted business model can sustain lower profit margins because of their volume while the smaller ones are eventually evolved out of the picture, not because they are unfit, but because the environment is increasingly stacked against them -- synthetically.

The only way to remove the money interest in Washington is to remove Washington's interest in the wares offered by the ones with the money. Which means, while politically untenable in this day and age, we need to ask not what our country can do for us.

Simply put, no amount of money could bribe a giraffe to swim.

[BadKosh]

i suggest that most politicians are not creative with the problem solving aspects of their positions. most are not really qualified to tamper. They don't seem to very good judges of character of their adviser's either.

I don't know who said it (W.C. Fields ?) "The kind of person who WANTS to be a politician is just the kind of person who should never get to be one".

Politicians wanting to tell NASA engineers how to do their jobs would be an example.

[P]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

I don't know who said it (W.C. Fields ?) "The kind of person who WANTS to be a politician is just the kind of person who should never get to be one."

You may be thinking of Douglas Adams: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made president should on no account be allowed to do the job."

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Because politicians swear an oath to be above such things and to represent us fairly, but all too often they break that promise and stab us in the back. Companies don't vow to do what's in our best interest, but our government does, and when they break that trust it's a much more damning thing. Companies and business people make money, that's what they do, they tread the legality tightrope every day, we should expect more from our government.

I agree, but I still think it would help to do more to illuminate upon shady business dealings with the government. A small part of the public seems concerned with what companies think of gay people, factory conditions in China (in the case of Apple), etc. and some choose to base their buying decisions upon this information. I just think we should expand upon this, hopefully to the point where a company would begin to need to question whether bribing politicians might have some sort of blowback.

But the better argument to me here is that if you expose the puppet master you probably expose the puppets, and vice versa. We need all of this exposed. The joke that politicians should wear Nascar race suits with patches to show who has bribed them can come to fruition in some small form, thereby satisfying all of us, no?

It's time for a puppetry witch hunt.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by P 

You may be thinking of Douglas Adams: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made president should on no account be allowed to do the job."

That's a fact. Put all of the most qualified people's names (top 50) in a hat and choose one, you'd likely end up with someone more honest than a career politician.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I agree, but I still think it would help to do more to illuminate upon shady business dealings with the government. A small part of the public seems concerned with what companies think of gay people, factory conditions in China (in the case of Apple), etc. and some choose to base their buying decisions upon this information. I just think we should expand upon this, hopefully to the point where a company would begin to need to question whether bribing politicians might have some sort of blowback.

But the better argument to me here is that if you expose the puppet master you probably expose the puppets, and vice versa. We need all of this exposed. The joke that politicians should wear Nascar race suits with patches to show who has bribed them can come to fruition in some small form, thereby satisfying all of us, no?

It's time for a puppetry witch hunt.

I don't believe people understand how pervasive this is. Quite frankly, the list of offenders is everyone in business who can. If they can financially benefit from forming a PAC or lobby, they will. If you illuminated everyone, at every level, and worked to boycott them, you'd almost literally be naked, bored, and hungry for the rest of your life.

[subego]

Let's just take Nestle, who gives baby formula to poor women in countries with filthy water when they're still in the hospital after giving birth. By the time they get out of the hospital their own milk has dried up, they can't afford the formula, and even if they could, they'd be mixing it with what amounts to raw sewage.

This is flat-out evil. You should not buy any Nestle products, which includes, but is not limited to:

ABERFOYLE Bottled Water
ADVIL
AFTER EIGHT
ALBERS
ALCON
ALPO
ANACIN
ANBESOL
ARROWHEAD WATER
BABY RUTH
BACI
BERINGER WINES
BIT-O-HONEY
BUITONI
BUTTERFINGER
CAIN'S Coffees and Teas
CALISTOGA Water and juice
CARNATION Evaporated Milk
CARNATION INSTANT BREAKFAST
CELESTIAL SEASONINGS
CHATEAU SAVERAIN WINES
CHEF'S BLEND
CHEF BOYARDEE
CHUNKY
CLEAR BLUE EASY Pregnancy Test
CLEAR PLAN Fertility Monitor
COFFEE-MATE
COLGATE-PALMOLIVE
COME 'N GET IT
COMPOUND W Wart Remover
CONTADINA Tomato & Pasta Products
CROSSE & BLACKWELL
CRUNCH
CRUNCH & MUNCH
DEER PARK WATER
DENNISON'S CHILI
DENOREX
DERMOPLAST
DO FROZEN JUICE BARS
DR. BALLARD'S
DREYER'S Ice Cream
DRISTAN
EUROPEAN STYLE
FANCY FEAST
FRISKIES
GLORIA VANDERBILT FRAGRANCES
GOOBERS
GREAT BEAR WATER
GULDEN'S Mustard
GUY LAROUCH FRAGRANCES
HAAGEN-DAZS Ice Cream
HELEN RUBENSTEIN FRAGRANCES
HILL'S BROS.
JIFFY POP
JUICY JUICE
KERN'S Nectar
LANCOME
LIBBY'S
L'OREAL
MAGGI
MIGHTY DOG
MILO
MJB
NAPA RIDGE WINES
NEET
NESCAFE
NESQUIK
NESTEA
NESTLÉ-BEICH Fundraising Chocolates
NESTLÉ CARNATION Hot Cocoa
NESTLE MILK CHOCOLATE
NESTLE TOLL HOUSE
Nestlé® Carnation® Baby Cereals with Formula
Nestlé® Carnation® Baby Formulas
NIPS
OASIS WATER
OH HENRY!
ORTEGA
OZARKA Bottled Water
PAM Cooking Spray
PERRIER Mineral Water
PERUGINA
PLENTITUDE
POWER BAR
POLAND SPRINGS WATER
POLANDER Jams and Jellies
PREPARATION H
PRIMATENE
PURINA
Q-TIPS
QUALITY STREET
QUIET WORLD
RAISINETS
RALPH LAUREN FRANGRANCES
RANCH STYLE BEANS
RIOPAN
SLEEPEZE
SNO-CAPS
SPREE
STOUFFER'S
STOUFFER'S LEAN CUISINE
STOUFFER'S SKILLET SENSATIONS
SWEETARTS
TASTER'S CHOICE
TODAY CONTRACEPTIVES
TREASURES
TRENDAR
TURTLES
UTOPIA WATER
VIROMED
VITELL WATER
WARNER COSMETICS
WONDERBALL
WONKA
YOPLAIT Yogurt
ZEPHYR HILLS WATER


See the problem?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I don't believe people understand how pervasive this is. Quite frankly, the list of offenders is everyone in business who can. If they can financially benefit from forming a PAC or lobby, they will. If you illuminated everyone, at every level, and worked to boycott them, you'd almost literally be naked, bored, and hungry for the rest of your life.

But I think what has happened is that these entities have shifted the gray line without any real contest, and in some cases without us even being consciously aware of this. I think it's time to start shifting it in our direction a little more. Obviously we can't be absolute about some very ideologically pure and strict line, but we can chip away at the worst offenders, push that line back a little, and then once that line has been shifted a little chip away at the worst offenders to cross the new line, etc.

Baby steps are better than no steps. I would go so far as to say that we *have* to do this, and again, whether your beef is with government or business we all benefit from exposing the inner workings of this machinery.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

Let's just take Nestle, who gives baby formula to poor women in countries with filthy water when they're still in the hospital after giving birth. By the time they get out of the hospital their own milk has dried up, they can't afford the formula, and even if they could, they'd be mixing it with what amounts to raw sewage.

This is flat-out evil. You should not buy any Nestle products, which includes, but is not limited to:

ABERFOYLE Bottled Water
etc...

See the problem?

Yes, in addition to this problem being hopelessly large, which I'm thinking is the point you were trying to make, the other problem is that I bet if we were to take an honest poll in here as to how many of us were aware of this, that number might be pretty low, and even if it wasn't, it's a given that it would be astonishingly low if we were to poll the Joe Sixpacks of the world.

The Tea Party people seem to want a revolution, how about starting here? This is stuff we can all agree upon in some way, no matter what your politics, and this stuff is a disease on our entire political apparatus.

[subego]

But I know it and still buy Nestle products anyway. That was the point.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

But I know it and still buy Nestle products anyway.

Because you alone are powerless to really have an impact, but if there were a million or more people like you that were aware and thought this was wrong, what then?

These people could create bad press, force Nestle to publicly acknowledge this, expose this to Nestle employees and weigh on whatever conscious they have, stimulate human rights groups around the world, get some people to boycott some or all of the products, out politicians that have enabled this in some manner, out politicians accepting any kind of bribery from Nestle, etc.

The overall impact could be equivalent to a gnat messing around with a giant, but so are all other groups trying to shake things up, really. Maybe the totality of growing swarms of gnats might become a thing? Somebody needs to create something like Snopes or Wikipedia or something for exposing this stuff so that people can recognize when their emotions are being manipulated by the spreading of myths and hoaxes.

Regarding the Nestle issue, it could also be that this issue isn't as dear to your heart as it would be for others? I'm not asserting this true or saying anything about you, I'm just saying that the exposure of an issue like this might impact others in uniquely profound ways.

It seems like the biggest political activist group in recent years as been the Tea Party, but nobody seems to question whether by installing Tea Party politicians we are just replacing puppets with puppets that say something different when you pull their string? To me, this love of power is a much more pressing issue than any particular ideology, particularly because it lacks checks and balances.

[subego]

No... it's because I like Häggen Dazs.

[ebuddy]

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

No... it's because I like Häggen Dazs.

I wonder what it would be like to be a strong gay rights advocate with a little Chick-Fi-la or Barilla addiction?


A Barilla addiction would be kind of weird though.

[subego]

I finally went to CFA to see what all the fuss is about. It was a good sammich, but I'd rather have fried chicken pieces.

[Shaddim]

They sell just pieces, too. They're like McNuggets, only with real chicken.

[subego]

When it comes right down to it, I'm a red meat kinda guy. McNuggets are really just a vehicle for the hot mustard dip.

[subego]

Also, I don't quite have a Barilla addiction, but their 60 second nuke pasta is far better than it has any right to be.

Despite that, I've stopped buying them.

[subego]

Also also, by "pieces" I meant with bones.

[el chupacabra]

besson3cThe problem is neither the puppets nor their puppet masters are really being exposed,

The problem is this original notion is incorrect. The puppets and their masters are always being exposed, on TV, on hundreds of news sites, there's even been a blockbuster movie or 2 exposing Citi. And still no one cares - enough to do anything. Subego just proved this. I doubt he had to access secret documents to find out about Nestle.

the other problem is that I bet if we were to take an honest poll in here as to how many of us were aware of this, that number might be pretty low, and even if it wasn't, it's a given that it would be astonishingly low if we were to poll the Joe Sixpacks of the world.

Thats correct. But how are you going to make Joe 6 care? He knows shady things are going on, he just doesn't know the details because he chooses not to. The details are easy to find but Joe doesn't want to spend he days worrying about politics and trying to form committees; he wants to live his life.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

These people could create bad press, force Nestle to publicly acknowledge this, expose this to Nestle employees and weigh on whatever conscious they have, stimulate human rights groups around the world, get some people to boycott some or all of the products, out politicians that have enabled this in some manner, out politicians accepting any kind of bribery from Nestle, etc.

That sounds like a lot of work. The whole reason our democracy is seemingly a failure is because of people trying to escape responsibility and work... so they can live their lives. IF millions of people were as motivated as would be required for all this that you say, they'd be so rich they'd never have to worry about health care, SS, or anything financial ever again... and hence we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with (see ebuddy's post above). Whether you know it or not the nation asked for these companies to be in the positions they're in. I suggest you take ebuddy's explanation to heart, it's one of the most eloquently condensed ways I've seen it explained.

As far as disliking companies vs politicians, you're right liberals tend to blame companies rather than politicians and conservatives vise versa; keep in mind it is a politician's job to hear the companies' just as much as it is to hear you. It's not the companies' fault that they win more because politicians represent them more, it's the polititian's. People can already organize into special interests to fight on the level of corporations if they wanted. The fact is they'd rather work for that big company and get a piece of all that money they swindle out of some poor schmuck; then go brag about their high pay job to their piers.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

I suggest you take ebuddy's explanation to heart, it's one of the most eloquently condensed ways I've seen it explained.

I appreciate the kudos, el chupacabra. But I cannot take credit for the "ask not what your country can do for you" line. That was pulled from an early Tea-bagging extremist; John F. Kennedy.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by subego 

When it comes right down to it, I'm a red meat kinda guy. McNuggets are really just a vehicle for the hot mustard dip.

**** me, but you're right, that is a good sauce.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by subego 

...
See the problem?

The vast majority of those things, I don't even know what they are (eg. what are TURTLES?). Unless store brands count (eg advil, pam, and q-tips), I honestly have not bought any item on that list in recent memory. But that is only by price-shopping, not ethics-shopping.

[subego]

Not a L'oreal or a Lancombe type of guy?

[BadKosh]

So , why don't they build a system for the clean water? Maybe getting the 3rd world folks to stop shitting where they drink?

[subego]

Not spent much time in the third world, have you?

[Snow-i]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how Congress, the Unions, and the President can be legally exempted from Obamacare.

Can anybody provide a justification to this? A reason why this isn't unconstitutional under the 14th's equal protection clause? A reason why they should be exempted?

I have, and always will have, a big problem with authority figures who live by "Do as I say and not as I do" and I can't think of a better example of this without looking at some of the world's most notorious dictators.

/Rerail

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by subego 

Not spent much time in the third world, have you?

Natural selection?

[The Final Dakar]

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Dude, can you stop junking up the forums with all these worthless gifs?

For crap sake dude, if you don't want to be here anymore, don't be here anymore. Unlike the ACA nobody is forcing you to be a part of these forums.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Dude, can you stop junking up the forums with all these worthless gifs?

For crap sake dude, if you don't want to be here anymore, don't be here anymore. Unlike the ACA nobody is forcing you to be a part of these forums.

That was obvious

[besson3c]

Snow-i: if you have a problem with Dakar's drive-by snarky commentary, do you also have a problem with Turtle doing the same?

[subego]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Dude, can you stop junking up the forums with all these worthless gifs?

For crap sake dude, if you don't want to be here anymore, don't be here anymore. Unlike the ACA nobody is forcing you to be a part of these forums.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Snow-i: if you have a problem with Dakar's drive-by snarky commentary, do you also have a problem with Turtle doing the same?

I'm sorry, I didn't see a comment in there. Did I miss some whited out text or something?

If you all want this thread to be a circle jerk of lolcats and gifs, have at it. At least the ignore feature still works around here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I'm sorry, I didn't see a comment in there. Did I miss some whited out text or something?

Was my question unclear?

[Laminar]

[subego]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

I'm sorry, I didn't see a comment in there. Did I miss some whited out text or something?

If you all want this thread to be a circle jerk of lolcats and gifs, have at it. At least the ignore feature still works around here.

This is an honest, non-snarky question and statement.

Are you cranky right now? You seem cranky.

[besson3c]

Why aren't there ever any black ghosts?

[Shaddim]

Plenty of stories of black ghosts in New Orleans.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Plenty of stories of black ghosts in New Orleans.

When are your next friend auditions?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When are your next friend auditions?

When a current one dies, it's a fixed number.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

When a current one dies, it's a fixed number.

Which won't be long, thanks to Owebama-care!

See how I brought this full circle?

[Shaddim]

At least you're now admitting that it will kill people.