[toshigen]

After being a diehard Mac user for years (grew up on Macs - and Atari 800 , I decided to take the plunge and buy my first PC. I still love Macs, and see a lot of promise in OS X... but the speed just isn't there yet. After doing a little research, I found that you can buy a PC that's probably twice as fast as the fastest Mac (for most things) - at about half the cost. For me, for that difference in price I'll deal with the few headaches that might come along with the PC (IRQ settings, registry problems, etc.).

Here's what I'm buying (scroll down to the XS 5000): http://www.buy-atlas.com/amd_ddr_line.html

They had a sale that was 25% off (it's 20% off now), so for $1377 I'm getting a 1.4GHZ Athlon Thunderbird, 256meg DDR ram, 40 gig hard drive, Nvidia Geforce 2 Ultra DDR 64MB video card (sweet!), and a 19" monitor. (I configured it with a network card, and chose not to get the speakers since I already have ones that I like). Granted, I didn't get it with CD RW, but can add a drive later if I want to.

At the Apple store, the closest thing I can get to that is the "Fastest" model... which costs $2999! And that's without a monitor, and a lesser video card. Ouch.

Okay, so maybe I don't feel that dirty after all... I just saved myself $1500, and got a kick ass system that's much faster than current Macs. Too bad I'll have to use that Windows crap though.

[Jinx]

I have 2 PCs in my house
I dont use them thow, only for looking at webpages to see if they're different than my mac thow.
I mostly use them for my sisters
so when they come around wanting to play something like super ultra disney something-or-other I just say "dammit go play solitare on the PC or something"

[M�lum]

Originally posted by toshigen:
<STRONG>After being a diehard Mac user for years (grew up on Macs - and Atari 800 , I decided to take the plunge and buy my first PC. I still love Macs, and see a lot of promise in OS X... but the speed just isn't there yet. After doing a little research, I found that you can buy a PC that's probably twice as fast as the fastest Mac (for most things) - at about half the cost. For me, for that difference in price I'll deal with the few headaches that might come along with the PC (IRQ settings, registry problems, etc.).

Here's what I'm buying (scroll down to the XS 5000): http://www.buy-atlas.com/amd_ddr_line.html

They had a sale that was 25% off (it's 20% off now), so for $1377 I'm getting a 1.4GHZ Athlon Thunderbird, 256meg DDR ram, 40 gig hard drive, Nvidia Geforce 2 Ultra DDR 64MB video card (sweet!), and a 19" monitor. (I configured it with a network card, and chose not to get the speakers since I already have ones that I like). Granted, I didn't get it with CD RW, but can add a drive later if I want to.

At the Apple store, the closest thing I can get to that is the "Fastest" model... which costs $2999! And that's without a monitor, and a lesser video card. Ouch.

Okay, so maybe I don't feel that dirty after all... I just saved myself $1500, and got a kick ass system that's much faster than current Macs. Too bad I'll have to use that Windows crap though. </STRONG>

And if you want to resale it today, what would you get for it? And what would you get for that 2999 Mac?
Macs never were bargains and I hope they'll never be bargains.
And for that speed issue: Not speaking benchmarks, but reality here...Is the difference really THAT big?

Anyway, I bought my first PC yesterday, not that I'm leaving the Mac platform, no way, but Autocad on Virtual PC is just not a good idea after all.
So I got myself a P3 1GH, 512MB/30 GB, Matrox 32MB, cdrw etc for circa $900. I use my Sony Ms20se for it......

All this so I had the perfect excuse to buy myself a 22' display (used for one week: $1700) If you're interested they have another 8 for this price at http://www.testsrl.it

[toshigen]

Originally posted by M�lum:
<STRONG>

And if you want to resale it today, what would you get for it? And what would you get for that 2999 Mac?
Macs never were bargains and I hope they'll never be bargains.
And for that speed issue: Not speaking benchmarks, but reality here...Is the difference really THAT big?

Anyway, I bought my first PC yesterday, not that I'm leaving the Mac platform, no way, but Autocad on Virtual PC is just not a good idea after all.
So I got myself a P3 1GH, 512MB/30 GB, Matrox 32MB, cdrw etc for circa $900. I use my Sony Ms20se for it......

All this so I had the perfect excuse to buy myself a 22' display (used for one week: $1700) If you're interested they have another 8 for this price at http://www.testsrl.it</STRONG>

If I were to resell it today? I'd probably get a couple hundred less than what I paid for the PC (since I got it on sale)... for the $2999 Mac, I'd get about $2500. I don't seriously buy the resale value argument. Besides, I don't usually resell computers that I purchase.

And, benchmarks aside, yes there is a big difference - especially in playing games (which is part of what I plan to do with the PC). For browsing the internet and doing email, it's probably not a huge difference.. but I'm sure it will be noticeable.

[Jamie]

You should feel dirty. Dirty dirty dirty. You'll be sorry after a few weeks. Just remeber ctrl-alt-del ctrl-alt-del.

Jamie

You should feel dirty!!
wouldnt take the pc even when it was for free !!

a diehard Mac user for years and years to come

[PHoynak]

I feel dirty also! I had to buy a PC for my A+, Net+ and MCSE courses that I am taking or will be taking. They ONLY thing that I like about a PC is that you can build your own and/or change and add hardware. I like to tinker with stuff. I love my Macs (2 iMacs, iBook and a PoweMac 7100 with G3 upgrade card). I just need to use the PC for my class. For ease of use and performance Apple is it.

[smacintush]

And, benchmarks aside, yes there is a big difference - especially in playing games�

This is the only really good reason to own a PC at home. For the rest of the stuff, well, there is really no significant speed advantage. Oh sure, people quote all of these benchmarks but the reality is that Macs are slower with some apps, the same with some, and faster with some. (Games on Mac are a shame, we have the second best G-chips and unoptimized products which sucks.)

The point is, you WILL have more trouble with ANY windows system than with Macs. Software just works better on a Mac period. In six months your PC will be bogged down and corrupted and you will have to reinstall (hope you backed up, bye bye data!)

But, I digress, I hope you have good luck with yours. I know many people bargain shopped for their computers and some are really happy. The difference is that they don't know what they're missing with the Mac, you do�

-sigh-

yea, I've got a PC too... only cuz its a cheap peice of dirt..

I' ve hit the restart key more times than I can count on my hands....

eh... whatever, if my brother wasn't hogging the mac all the time, all I'd use the PC for is to connect to the internet, and then hop onto my iMac..

hmm..

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[Liman Wong]

Originally posted by &lt;b33fytr0n&gt;:
<STRONG>hmm..

3.14159</STRONG>

Well, my PC can generate the Super Pi in 32M digits without crash ... do you want all those digits?

It is not dirty, you could make the PC so stable and nice if you wish.

--- www.digital-life-21.com/forums/

[blakespot]

Speaking of resaleability of Macs, I just sold my rev a B&W G3 tower (pretty loaded, but no monitor, etc.) for $1050 on eBay. Not bad. (That unit was introduced Jan '99)

blakespot

[jmatero]

Look, I'm a mac freak but here's the deal. I'm a photoshop "person" at work and have a dell with radeon card, close to a gig of ram and a 550mhz Pentium 3. I run photoshop 6.0.1 on both it and my G4 733/radeon/1.5gig ram machine at home (os9 and osx).

The machine at work is just as fast as my 733 unit at home... and also as fast as both of our dual 533's with g-force mx2's at the office. NO difference really in speed...in other words, filters etc. all run within a second of eachother. This totally blew me away because steve's demo at the macworld show for the 733 shows it blowing away a pentium 4 1.x ghz machine and my little $1299 dell box with win2k is just a freakin' fast. (and my home G4 was $3500!!!... I almost could have bought 3 DELLS). AND while I'm a HUGE OSX fanatic, it is MUCH less stable than W2k... my W2k box has NEVER locked up, crashed etc. I had a couple of Photoshop "quits" before the 6.0.1 update but that's it. That's why when I bring work home, I'm in 9.1 which also loves to just FREEZE when it wants.

ANYWAY... I was FORCED to buy the pc at work for web work and honestly, once you're in the adobe apps, the operating system just doesn't matter for me. In fact (I can't believe I'm saying this.....) the windows task bar handles minimized/multiple windows better than os9 and osx... I know exactly what window is down there without a mouseover. Why am I bringing this all up? I'm scared as hell right now! I've got a graphics dept that moves from Mac to pc to mac to pc box without a problem... no "learning curve". The apps (adobe anyway) are IDENTICAL on the pc. The PC is a third of the price. Adobe STILL won't commit to OSX software and I can't blame them considering the issues that still exist with OSX. That being the case, what the blazes is going to keep graphics folks from moving to the PC? Really...lets be realistic here. Companies look at the dollar and if something works just as well... if not better, is cheaper, etc why shouldn't they go that route. I'm just an artist... I don't have much say in what my company buys. BUT the little say I DID have ("we need macs") is vanishing because with the economy in the state it's in, we're looking at cutting heads and if we can spend less on hardware that still runs the same software just as fast and we can cut our mac tech/support staff and just use the existing PC guys........... You following me? Is there ANY hope here?

[Ken_F2]

toshigen,

You made a mistake by purchasing a system now, when next-generation processor, chipset, and graphics technologies are literally right around the corner. If you would have waited 2.5 months (October), you could have obtained a system for the same price with:

- 1.533GHz AMD "Athlon 4" (successor to current Athlon)
- Asus motherboard with nVidia nForce chipset (based on Xbox technology)
- 256Mb PC2100 DDR memory
- ATI Radeon 2 or Geforce3 Mx
- 60Gb IBM 60GXP hard drive (do you even know what HD you are getting now?)
- nVidia nForce sound (superior to SB Live!) with on-the-fly Dolby Digital 5.1 encoding OR
- Creative SoundBlaster Audigy (successor to the Live! that is the first consumer board to offer 96khz sound plus dual 800mbps Firewire inputs)
- Combo DVD read + 12/10/32 CDRW drive
- much better case (i.e. liquid-cooled, totally silent model)
- Internal 56k modem
- better 19" monitor
- the rest the same

And no, there are not always the same "new technologies coming around the corner." ATI doesn't release a next-generation chip (Radeon 2) every few months, but more like once a year; the same can be said of nVidia's upcoming Geforce3 Mx. Creative Labs certainly doesn't release a next-generation sound board every year, or even every two years. And evolutionary new technology like nVidia's nForce chipset, with dual DDR memory channels and an 800MB/s Hypertransport bus, doesn't come along very often.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Ken_F2 ]

[Bophasa]

You should feel dirty.
What ever happened to loyalty.

[toshigen]

Originally posted by Ken_F2:
<STRONG>toshigen,

You made a mistake by purchasing a system now, when next-generation processor, chipset, and graphics technologies are literally right around the corner.

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Ken_F2 ]</STRONG>

I bought a computer now because I wanted one now... not 2 1/2 months from now. I'm sure I'll be happy enough with my purchase that I won't be upset that I didn't wait... and most of the things you're talking about I can always upgrade to later (it's a PC, you can do that).

As far as the hard drive, I know that it's a 5400 rpm 40 gig hard drive... I don't know what brand though. I chose not to upgrade to the 7200 rpm model because that's not that important to me (the 4200 rpm drive in my Pismo is plenty fast in fact - even for digital video). Also, do you know what brand hard drive you're getting when you buy a new Mac? No.

[toshigen]

Originally posted by Bophasa:
<STRONG>You should feel dirty.
What ever happened to loyalty. </STRONG>

Loyalty? If I want to do something and I can only do it on a PC, I'll use the PC... it's not a matter of loyalty at all. It's just that some software doesn't run on Macs, period. It's also a matter of economics... if I can get a PC for less than half the cost of a Mac - and have it be twice the speed, I'll choose (and have chosen) the PC.

If you want to blindly follow Apple while they empty your wallet just for the sake of being loyal, that's your decision. (and a foolish decision at that)

[jbell]

Originally posted by toshigen:
<STRONG>...For me, for that difference in price I'll deal with the few headaches that might come along with the PC (IRQ settings, registry problems, etc.)... I just saved myself $1500, and got a kick ass system that's much faster than current Macs. Too bad I'll have to use that Windows crap though.</STRONG>

Few headaches for that difference in price? Don't count on it! Make sure you have plenty of aspirins handy. You'll be sorry for that PC of yours...it will become an eyesore, make you very unproductive, deflate in value very quickly, and end up as a door stopper in no time! I suppose that you prefer quantity to be more important than quality at the lowest cost possible.

I am currently using PCs primarily for work (no choice) and Macs for home. With the PCs, I got plenty of headaches already. Thank goodness for the Macs to feed my appetite, improve quality of time management, and ease my pain!

[HeatMiser]

Hey, buy what you want. It's cool.

Personally, I'm totally uninspired by Wintel/Winlon hardware and software, and life is just too short to go through without inspiration.

[PeteWK]

I'm with the folks who are thinging that you were never really a Mac user. Go back to your PC sites.

PeteWK

[JLannoo]

Originally posted by PeteWK:
<STRONG>I'm with the folks who are thinging that you were never really a Mac user. Go back to your PC sites.

PeteWK</STRONG>

Nice comment....what are you 12?

The PC is great. The Mac is Great. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. It depends on what you need one or the other for.

Right now the PC kicks the Macs @ss speed wise. Thats not a knock at Apple its just the truth. As a Gamer it was a must for me to own a PC as the Mac in this area just does not come even remotely close.

[SirCastor]

It's always interesting to see what kind of knee-jerk (emphisis on Jerk) reactions some people have here when you hit a sensitive spot.

I want to be surprised by the lack of maturity presented by some people, but I keep forgetting, not all of us have even hit that solemn year of 20.

Anyway, Congratulations on your purchase toshigen. It takes guts in a Mac World to a bug a PC.. I think it's probably a good investment on your part. (I personally, don't see myself buying one because my Mac can already do everything I need to do)

Remember, you're not required by law to use Windows.. (I would say you're better off with Some varient of NT, or something like that.)
And Load XP when it comes out. I'd like to see a side by side comparsion from someone..

To the Adobe guy:

You said once you are in the apps then it doesn't matter what OS you are using.

Sorry, but I can never understand how people can say that.
- The PC mouse is much jerkier than the Mac mouse, no matter what PC mouse driver you use. When doing graphic work, this is a very big deal.
- The Mac menu bar is always at the top of the screen making menu access much quicker - you don't have to hit a target, you can "shoot for the moon" - it makes a bigger difference than one would first think.
- Folder navigation is much quicker on a Mac.
- Mac apps don't try to default me to save to some stupid directory deep in the System Folder. For some reason, NT thinks I want to save everything in a directory deep within its complex directory structure
- Copy/Paste, drag and drop are much better implemented on the Mac side
- The whole environment seems more "refined" and "smooth" - obviously this last point is subjective - but most cross platform designers I've talked to agree with me.

Originally posted by Jinx:
<STRONG>I have 2 PCs in my house
I dont use them thow, only for looking at webpages to see if they're different than my mac thow.
</STRONG>

Just to nitpick, but do you mean "though"?

[Milio]

Congrats toshigen! I know you'll be happy. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed using Windows when I built my first PC 3 years ago. I had been a completely loyal Mac user since the Mac was introduced, and used the old Apple I/II/c/III before that. I saw the direction OS X was going and decided it was time to start looking for alternatives. Good thing too!

I still use OS 9 for eight hours a day, but I really love using my PC at home too. My Celeron 450 was easily as capable as my G4 450, and my new Athlon 1Ghz spanks! Hopefully some day the Mac will be competitive again, but until then I'll use what works.

[andypolack]

If you custimize your Mac selection, you can get a better deal for about $20,000. It's F***ing sweet!

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by hayesk:
<STRONG>To the Adobe guy:

You said once you are in the apps then it doesn't matter what OS you are using.

Sorry, but I can never understand how people can say that.
- The PC mouse is much jerkier than the Mac mouse, no matter what PC mouse driver you use. When doing graphic work, this is a very big deal.

</STRONG>


umm ok... and how do you plan on proving this?

every PC mouse as far back as a 486 has been silky smooth to me, espeacilly the higher quality logictec and MS ones. Perhaps you were using an el cheapo rollermouse that hasn't been cleaned in ages? or worse yet a cloth mousepad? and why is it MS optical Explorer mouse on a PC is jerkyer than on a MAC, its all the same hardware. i think if you are noticing a difference in them then you ned to chack for the differences, of cource an el crappo balled mouse found in the 99 cents stiore on an old cloth mouse opad is going to feel bad, but a good optical mouse on a RatPad will feel much smoother. Hell Razor went out of busineess because there Boomslang Roller (i,e still had a ball in it) Mouse was too damn sensitive, even more so with a good mouse pad. So if all PC mice are jerkyer than the MAC one, then why did a company g out of business for having one too sensitive? maybe thats the problem, all the PC mice are mre sensitive and therefore feel more jerky to you perhaps

<STRONG>
- The Mac menu bar is always at the top of the screen making menu access much quicker - you don't have to hit a target, you can "shoot for the moon" - it makes a bigger difference than one would first think.

</STRONG>

umm i can't think of any Quality PC app that doesn't have the menu bars at the top, even lower quality ones. Visual Basic makes the top the ONLY place you can put your menus, and thats the primary app fior creating windows interfaces.

<STRONG>
- Folder navigation is much quicker on a Mac.

</STRONG>

thats really personal preference...

i find windows directory structure quicker because it is mkore logical to me, as opposed to the MAcOS one. i like having the subt-trre view of windows explorer, somtehting i miss having in MacOS.

<STRONG>
- Mac apps don't try to default me to save to some stupid directory deep in the System Folder. For some reason, NT thinks I want to save everything in a directory deep within its complex directory structure

</STRONG>

umm you can't really blame the OS on this one as most Apps set their default save directory, not windows, when the app doesn't have a default windows sets to the My Documents folder. In WindowsNT this is within the documents and settings folder under your user profile directory. since NT is designed for the Networked enviroment, any user can use any machine, so windows needs to store each user item under its own profile. Documents for each user can't share the same folder as this removes all privacy for a users document, so each profile gets its own My Documents and settings information. whenever an App doesn't have a default save directory, NT automaticly has it default to the My Documents under your profile. this keeps your documents yours and prevents getting them mixed up with others, when you selct my documents from the desktop ity goes automaticly to your my documents under your profile. that make since?

<STRONG>
- Copy/Paste, drag and drop are much better implemented on the Mac side
</STRONG>

umm i don't see the argument in this, open Apple-c vs Ctrl-c or Open Apple-v vs CTRL-V whats the difference? in windows i can goto any file or files or directory or directories, right click select copy and they are copied, i goto the folder where i want hem pasted, i right click, select paste and i am done. if you have a common paste area (my docs folder perhaps) then i select send to instead of copy, and it automaitcly gets pasted in the other location. drag and droping is the same way, selct a fil;e drag it to the next location and release it. whast so different there?

the OS issues are subjective ands thats ok as long as you realize they are subjective and not objective. what doesn't work for me may work for you, and waht works for you may not work for me.

[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Nimisys ]

[trumptman]

Well I feel like I am in the same position as many Mac users. I own a G3 tower and also a PC now as well. I am interested in buying a newer Mac but Apple has honestly not produced anything compelling. I buy a Lite-on 12xcdr (completely compatible and only $89-99) and I have machine barely 10% slower in 9 out of 10 apps than the current bottom end PowerMac. (Still $1700 to boot)

Also I just don't buy the speed thing from Apple. My PC is older. It is absolutely nothing special. It had a celeron 300@450 in it and now it has a celeron 566@850 in it. It is not a high end PC by any stretch in fact it has very similar specs to the G3. PC-100, ATA33 etc...


I ran Cinebench on both machines to try to compare speeds. I don't run Quake 3 all day nor do I consider it the king of benchmarks by any stretch.


software score opengl rendering
G3 3.69 4.37 4.69
Cel@875 7.37 12.50 9.14
G4@733 6.15 7.64 9.01

I would expect a G3 to crush a celeron and even a P3. G4 is supposed to be crushing P4 and Athlon.
Just to make it even more fair I added a G4@733 mhz with 133 mhz and gf2mx (matches my PC.)

So basically a 4 year old motherboard (BH6) with a celeron matches a new $3000+ Mac G4.

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>

This is the only really good reason to own a PC at home. For the rest of the stuff, well, there is really no significant speed advantage. Oh sure, people quote all of these benchmarks but the reality is that Macs are slower with some apps, the same with some, and faster with some. (Games on Mac are a shame, we have the second best G-chips and unoptimized products which sucks.)

-sigh-</STRONG>

The reality is, unless you are doing Photoshop work, the PC will whomp the Mac. I write data analysis software, own a Mac at home and use a PC at work. When I compile an run it on both machines (P3 and G3), it's pretty obvious that the PC's are faster.

Sure, the G3 seems to get more work done per Mhz, but it's only about 20% more, at least based on my varied code. A 1.2G Athlon or a 733 G4? The G4 would lose, hands down.

What really irks me is that I want to buy a new tower, but the prices, quite frankly, are a slap in the face. If Apple can sell those iBooks (with an LCD, mind you), then surely Apple can offer an entry level tower (say, 667 Mhz) for $1400 and still make an obscene profit. Hell, for $1400, Apple should throw in a 17-inch monitor, but maybe that's asking too much.

[crh]

The Mac's ability to handle Postscript fonts and professional color management within Adobe, Quark and MacroMedia apps is far superior to any Windows box, and that may be true for a long time to come. XP, et al don't address this critical part of design, and as a consultant with A+, Sun, CCNA and MCSE certifications and twelve years designing and teaching design, dv, web, and prepress on the Mac, I can say that I don't miss Windows when I go home and fire up the 'ole dp 533 (1.5 gigs 'o RAM, GF3, 120 gig160 LVD RAID, etc.) for a Final Cut Pro, P-shop, etc. session. But I do know a number of architects, graphic designers, DV editors, and 3D artists who need what pcs offer more than what Apple offers (for example, AutoCad and StudioMax, to name a few). Most of them have personal experience with and an affection for the Mac's abilities, etc., but find no practical way to work on the Mac platform and pay the rent : ). I know more than one of them is eagerly awaiting Maya for OS X; lots of other extremely powerful s/w will get ported over from Unix in particular, or so my Unix and OS X developer friends tell me.

Apple's always had their heads up their collective a*&es as a company; they run it like a vertically integrated ad agency rather than an horizontally integrated hw/sw company- in other words, they crap on the consumer because the real client is the stockholder. Other companies do this, obviously, but none as pointedly as Apple. Hell, MS looks like your favorite neighborhood grocer when it comes to service and support compared to Apple- and I'm certified in Apple Service as well. I can only imagine Joe iMac's experiences.

All this leads me to my point, which is: if you don't want to stick with Apple as your sole computer, or even if you're fed up and want to switch for what you consider very good reasons, that's not only cool and completely your right to do so without a hassle from us crazed Mac users, but I can't say I blame you one bit. Everyone has to make their own decision and thank goodness for that.

I do know, from being at tons of technical, industry, and developer conferences over the last years and months, that OS X and Mac hardware will be going up a steep ramp, not over a cliff, performance and useabilty wise in the next twelve months. Me, I work with Unix, Linux, Mac,Win 9x, NT, 2k, etc. all day and I know the shortcomings and strengths of each OS in my sleep. It's just a personal preference of that's kind of hardened into an obsession with the Mac and the fact that I'd teach and learn with the Mac
for free because of the aesthetic, technical, and productive enjoyment I get out of using Mac h/w and s/w.

Macs will always lose the price race, imho. But value is going to return with a vengeance. What Apple and third party developers come out with in the next twelve to eighteen months in hardware and software will put meaning back into the phrase Mac Speed (right now kind of an oxymoron), and redefine what a desktop OS can do with/for a user, I promise. But if your needs point to PCs now, or maybe from now on, more power to you- because, at the end of the day, it's about getting done what you want to do, not what you use to do it.

As much as I'll miss Mac OS 9.x (and back to 6.x), OS X is going to be unbelievably improved to the point where most of us can't believe ANYONE hung in there with Apple during 10.0.0 to 10.x. Lord knows, Apple, in its secretive, arrogant ways hasn't made it any easier. Let's just say that if I didn't know what I do about what's coming, it would be much easier for me to stick with my souped-up dp SGI O2 Unix workstation for working in Maya. I hope to eBay the SGI in twelve months or so, while it can still smoke anything from Moto, Intel, or AMD!

As for games, Halo had better run at 120+ fps or I'm buying a dolphin box just for games .

Occam's Razor- never dull!

[el matteo]

Why on earth are all of you taking this flamebait? Just let the thread die...they're trolling.

[Milio]

Originally posted by crh:
[QB]
As for games, Halo had better run at 120+ fps or I'm buying a dolphin box just for games .
QB]

Planning on buying that Dolphin for Halo? Planning on waiting a long, long time? =)

Great post btw. Nice to see that some people understand that it's what you do that matters, not what you do it with.

[Scotttheking]

Hey, I have a PC too, see my sig below.

Why did I get it?
Because I needed a machine that I could put linux on a screw around with. Obviously I wasn't getting a Mac for that. I also needed a fast processor for SETI crunching, and that Athlon is good for the task.

It is good for what I need it for, so are my Macs.

--Scott

[DoctorGonzo]

Macs never were bargains and I hope they'll never be bargains.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

You are either being elitist or simply rationalizing Apple's poor price/perfromace ratio.

Or both.

[crh]

Milio wrote: "Planning on buying that Dolphin for Halo? Planning on waiting a long, long time? =)"

Duh-oh! I knew that was a mistake as soon as I pressed "Add Reply" .

I'll play Halo on a Mac, as usual, or I won't play it at all. Q3 is up to around 110+; I'm sure Halo on the Mac will fly faster than my neural network can keep up...we'll see if Bungie (now Bill's Bungie, I think) is serious about the port's timely arrival or not soon enough.


Occam's Razor- never dull!

[Tjeerd van Hoytema]

I've used Macs since Feb 1993, and I never regretted that they didn't have the abilities a PC had (more software, more extras). I currently work on a G3 B&W running OS X 10.0.4, and a PowerBook Pismo 400 all the time and when those computers reach theirs ends, I'll put linux on it and use them as servers
I know my next computer WILL be a Mac, no matter what, I'm just waiting to see what around the corner, (macs with DDR RAM, faster HD, better graphics) but I don't need the new fancy TFT LCD Apple offers, my two year old Sony CRT will do just fine.

By no way will I ever get a PC (soz Bill), I'm just Macaddicted.

[M�lum]

Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
<STRONG>

That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

You are either being elitist or simply rationalizing Apple's poor price/perfromace ratio.

Or both.</STRONG>

no, sorry, it's just reality.
And reading your comment, I think your the elitist here.

[xmoger]

LCD panels never were bargains and I hope they'll never be bargains.

[MikeM32]

jmatero said:

ANYWAY... I was FORCED to buy the pc at work for web work and honestly, once you're in the adobe apps, the operating system just doesn't matter for me. In fact (I can't believe I'm saying this.....) the windows task bar handles minimized/multiple windows better than os9 and osx... I know exactly what window is down there without a mouseover. Why am I bringing this all up? I'm scared as hell right now! I've got a graphics dept that moves from Mac to pc to mac to pc box without a problem... no "learning curve". The apps (adobe anyway) are IDENTICAL on the pc. The PC is a third of the price. Adobe STILL won't commit to OSX software and I can't blame them considering the issues that still exist with OSX. That being the case, what the blazes is going to keep graphics folks from moving to the PC? Really...lets be realistic here. Companies look at the dollar and if something works just as well... if not better, is cheaper, etc why shouldn't they go that route. I'm just an artist... I don't have much say in what my company buys. BUT the little say I DID have ("we need macs") is vanishing because with the economy in the state it's in, we're looking at cutting heads and if we can spend less on hardware that still runs the same software just as fast and we can cut our mac tech/support staff and just use the existing PC guys........... You following me? Is there ANY hope here

As scary as that prospect is, it's the same way where I work. I work for a Printing firm, in thier Pre-Press and Typesetting/Layout/Art department. The thing is we deal with tons of customer files as well as do lots of work in-house. I can vouch that 99% of the files we receive from outside agencies is still Mac based. We do get the occasional PC file(s) but it's very rare.

My place of work is also going through hard times, so they'll be looking to cut corners as-well. The biggest issue if they did decide to go PC, is they'd have to replace EVERYTHING. Right now our small network (5 Mac workstations, Two Mac based Raster Image Processors, a new G4 Fileserver, 3 Laser Printers, 1 Digital Printer, and a Film Imagesetter) all run Mac software or from mac based hardware drivers.

Right now it's not looking like they're planning on sinking any big money into new hardware, which we could use. As far as tech staff goes, we don't really have any in our department. These systems are pretty-much maintainance free. The little issues that do come up are ones that don't require a Phd in computer science to tackle. If we went PC then we'd need the Tech support. Many an artist working here have "said" (for what it's worth) they'd actually leave the company if they went PC. I'm not such an extremist, maybe since I've used PC's before (just didn't like 'em after I started using Macs).

In our case it's not likely to happen. If it did happen we'd likely go into it slowly, which would then mean we'd have some PC on our Mac network, then two, then three (over a few years time). This would mean all these systems would have to network easily. This would mean we'd need the same software for whatever PC wound-up on there. At least I can say the applications I use (Illustrator, Photoshop and QuarkXPress are similar on either platform).

I could see the tech support costs already, since none of us really know a hell of a lot about PC's.

Over time they'd likely see some savings, but not if they tried to pull some mass sortee of the entire department overnight. Either way all the old mac stuff would be renderred useless. So either way some financial loss would occur. But wer'e not in need of Dual G4 or 733 MHz systems either. A new G4/466 would be a welcome addition since our only other "newest" workstation is a G3/450 Blue and White. It's like 2 (?) years old already. The base G4 we could use is about what most would pay for a decent PC as-well (not a bargain basement deal).

Mike

[[email protected]]

i've been thinking of building a machine to run darwin/intel, linux and freebsd on.

i think it would be a good learning tool, as those platforms have a deeper development history than mac os x on ppc (with the exception of darwin/intel - which would be nice to run if just for comparison to my g4). these os's are also all quite similar to mac os x (especially darwin-intel and freebsd).

a friend says he can build me a 1Ghz athlon for $250. i believe him. he's got a nest of machines.

but don't call me a traitor. if i can integrate these os's to x, then my studio will have more use for x...

[Face Ache]

It is very very sad that Apple puts so much power and ability into the hands of the rich.

A real revolution starts at the bottom. It's usually instigated by the rich losing contact with the real world and the poor chopping their heads off.

Steve's neck should be on the block. Stop using Ghandi as a role model in your advertising Steve. He could never afford an Apple Mac. Computers "for the rest of us" and "think different" should be struck off too. You are more like Dell than the Body Shop. Think $$$$.

I've worked in an AppleCentre but I never saw any poor people there (or perhaps they wandered in, got the price, laughed and left). I saw plenty of rich people getting "the lot" though --- "...and a high-end iMac for my daughters room as well....". It's a sad thing to be a MacHead, working in an AppleCentre and not be able to afford one, watching doctors, lawyers, etc waltz out the door with best spec towers (sometimes two) that they don't know how to use (or a PC would have done fine for them but they are actually attracted to the higher price of the Mac - "Must be better, huh?").

Until we can all afford Macs, I recommend either stealing them from your rich neighbours or buying a PC. Where's Steve's house? If us poor folk steal enough of them they will lower the price to keep their houses safe, I'm sure. Let the real revolution begin!

[cowerd]

christ. pathetic marxist drivel. try really reading some Marx. if you are the revolutionary youth then the world might as well roll over and die.

how special comparing Apple/Dell to a company that sells makeup [Bodyshop]. Very revolutionary stuff that--perhaps your little mind might read some feminist literature while you're at it. Selling things in a nice way doesn't make what you're are selling any less harmful.

btw Ghandi didn't believe in the marxist form of revolution. he was a pacifist.

if you think that $$$ difference between a PC and Mac makes a monkeyfu@# of difference in countries where the average wage earner makes less than $1000US a year then you are delusional. welcome to the digital divide. now go back a troll somewhere else.

we now return you to our regularly scheduled programming...

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]

[M�lum]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
<STRONG>It is very very sad that Apple puts so much power and ability into the hands of the rich.

A real revolution starts at the bottom. It's usually instigated by the rich losing contact with the real world and the poor chopping their heads off.

Steve's neck should be on the block. Stop using Ghandi as a role model in your advertising Steve. He could never afford an Apple Mac. Computers "for the rest of us" and "think different" should be struck off too. You are more like Dell than the Body Shop. Think $$$$.

I've worked in an AppleCentre but I never saw any poor people there (or perhaps they wandered in, got the price, laughed and left). I saw plenty of rich people getting "the lot" though --- "...and a high-end iMac for my daughters room as well....". It's a sad thing to be a MacHead, working in an AppleCentre and not be able to afford one, watching doctors, lawyers, etc waltz out the door with best spec towers (sometimes two) that they don't know how to use (or a PC would have done fine for them but they are actually attracted to the higher price of the Mac - "Must be better, huh?").

Until we can all afford Macs, I recommend either stealing them from your rich neighbours or buying a PC. Where's Steve's house? If us poor folk steal enough of them they will lower the price to keep their houses safe, I'm sure. Let the real revolution begin! </STRONG>

Very funny, especially the first part.

[Face Ache]

...Actually thought that would get a few more backs up than it did.

Bet a few blood pressures went up at the stealing part. I worked on that. Rich people hate that. Hehe

Cheaper iMacs would be nice though...

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Nimisys:
<STRONG>umm i can't think of any Quality PC app that doesn't have the menu bars at the top, even lower quality ones. Visual Basic makes the top the ONLY place you can put your menus, and thats the primary app fior creating windows interfaces.</STRONG>

I can't for the life of me see why no one has yet pointed out to you that this is not the issue here. On the mac, all apps share a common menu-bar at the top of the screen which you can not overshoot. You can always trow your mouse at a menu and click. This in addition to the muscle-memory you will build up by always having the same items in the same space will increase your productivity.

This is contrary to the moving-target windowbased-menu system of Windows and other OSes.

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
<STRONG>

I can't for the life of me see why no one has yet pointed out to you that this is not the issue here. On the mac, all apps share a common menu-bar at the top of the screen which you can not overshoot. You can always trow your mouse at a menu and click. This in addition to the muscle-memory you will build up by always having the same items in the same space will increase your productivity.

This is contrary to the moving-target windowbased-menu system of Windows and other OSes.</STRONG>

i understand it is alway at the top, but it is the same in windows, the menu function are always at the top of the window for the app. if you are using an app for any time and trying to be most productive then that is full screen with the menus being at the top like always. i am not seeing the argument here... maybe its the fact that each window has its own menu bar set at the top of the menu? or that the menu bar is below the title bar? either way i don't see a problem, especialy since if you are trying to be the most productive in that program you will be using the keyboard shortcuts anyways.

[MikeM32]

While this thread seems to be growing exponentially, I'd like to add something.

It always amazes me how the PC zealots love to invade the Mac fora.

I mean don't you people have a "place" of your own to go???

It's gotta be a pretty sad life to purposely go around starting sh_t where you don't belong.

Mike

[smacintush]

i understand it is alway at the top, but it is the same in windows, the menu function are always at the top of the window for the app. if you are using an app for any time and trying to be most productive then that is full screen with the menus being at the top like always. i am not seeing the argument here... maybe its the fact that each window has its own menu bar set at the top of the menu? or that the menu bar is below the title bar? either way i don't see a problem, especialy since if you are trying to be the most productive in that program you will be using the keyboard shortcuts anyways.

No, this is NOT the same. Ok, MAYBE with the full screen apps, it is similar. The point is, EVERY single app on a Mac has a menu in the same place on the screen. So no matter WHAT app you use, the menus are always in the same place. This creates muscle memory in which makes your hand automatically go to the right place on the screen. It took me WEEKS to quit going to the top right for the app menu in OS X. In Windows, You CAN'T create muscle memory, the menus vary from app to app because the windows sizes and location can vary. Multiple window apps are a nightmare. You don't see this? Then you haven't spent much time on a Mac.

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>

No, this is NOT the same. Ok, MAYBE with the full screen apps, it is similar. The point is, EVERY single app on a Mac has a menu in the same place on the screen. So no matter WHAT app you use, the menus are always in the same place. This creates muscle memory in which makes your hand automatically go to the right place on the screen. It took me WEEKS to quit going to the top right for the app menu in OS X. In Windows, You CAN'T create muscle memory, the menus vary from app to app because the windows sizes and location can vary. Multiple window apps are a nightmare. You don't see this? Then you haven't spent much time on a Mac.</STRONG>

no i know exactly you are refering too. i got and old ass b&W classic at home, i have been forced to use MacOS to the point that i can say why i dislike it. but as to muscle memory it can happen on windows as well, your muscles/minds just remember it for different apps. for example in Rhino (3D modeler) i know exactly where the commonly used buttons are (shade, curve map to surface, join, split, explode, ect) and yet i know the same thing for word, or for corel or for IE. you build the same muscle memory for each app. only when ther window size changes do you notice how set you are in the location of items.

As for multiple windows in use i love it as it works better for me than the one window open, one menu bar system in MacOS.

[smacintush]

As for multiple windows in use i love it as it works better for me than the one window open, one menu bar system in MacOS.

One window open? Not until OS X, and even then it is optional. Mac OS scatters windows everywhere. Like I said, it doesn't sound like you've used a Mac much. If you had, you would probably would not have said "forced". I know not ONE person who has more than a little experience with a Mac, who likes the windows interface better. You must be "special"