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starman · Apr 30, 2009, 09:26 AM

A few months ago, Blizzard started sending C&D letters to developers of iPhone apps that read (scraped) XML data such as data from the armory (the page which lists your character's info), and charged users for them. Well, that makes sense since you don't want someone making money off your data which you give away for free.

People thought free apps were safe.

Nope. Today, Blizzard sent C&D letters out to developers of FREE armory apps. This makes me think - if the app is FREE, and the data is FREE, how can Blizzard claim that a FREE app is damaging their company? For one thing, Blizzard does not yet have an armory app on the iPhone (yet). And even if they're working on one, it's not out YET. Also, other companies worth WITH developers to bring apps to the iPhone and other devices.

I have an app on the App store which takes the XML data of the U.S. servers and basically just lists them, saying if the servers are up or down. It's useful on patch days, or to see if your server's down if you don't have the server page bookmarked. I have not gotten a C&D letter, but if I did, I'd have to wonder if Blizzard has the right to tell me I can't write an app that essentially doesn't actually HURT them. How does a free app that reports data hurt a company? I'm thinking that there would have to be some proof that damages were actually occurring, and even still, can you copyright free data?

This reminds me of how people were taking the prices from a local bookstore and reproducing them. The bookstore tried to sue and lost because the data was just that - data given freely to the public.

Thoughts on this?

Hawkeye_a · 09:47 AM

I don't think actual data from the public domain can be copyrighted. but the DTD(Data Type Definition) or the data structure can probably be.

olePigeon · Apr 30, 2009, 11:35 AM

You can patent XML data. Software patents really suck.

Doofy · Apr 30, 2009, 11:42 AM

Copyright law book says "yes".

It's a layout with information in it, which means it's automatically copyrighted as soon as it's written.

Chuckit · Apr 30, 2009, 11:48 AM

Not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice but: Yes, any sufficiently original text can be copyright. The price of the document doesn't have a bearing. But if your app is just reading a public page on their site and presenting the information in another format, I don't see how that violates their copyright.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 30, 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

But if your app is just reading a public page on their site and presenting the information in another format, I don't see how that violates their copyright.

You'd be using their copyrighted material without authorization.

CharlesS · Apr 30, 2009, 11:52 AM

I'm not a lawyer either, but if they actually have a patent on the format, then yes, it can be illegal to make a program that will read that format at all.

Chuckit · Apr 30, 2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

You'd be using their copyrighted material without authorization.

Placing a page on a public-facing Web site is generally held to be authorization to read it. Otherwise Google could sue you for reading their home page.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 30, 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Placing a page on a public-facing Web site is generally held to be authorization to read it. Otherwise Google could sue you for reading their home page.

To read, but not to re-use in a context of your personal design.

Google does not show you the entire page text in a different layout or context; they give you snippets based around your search term, and then link to the full page.

SSharon · Apr 30, 2009, 12:16 PM

This sounds more like a misappropriation claim than a copyright infringement claim. Facts cannot be copyrighted (although original expression of them can be).

I remember reading a case in which Motorola was sending people NBA scores to their pagers and so the NBA sued them. Even though the NBA generated the scores at a cost and even though Motorola was free-riding the court found that there was no misappropriation because Motorola was not in direct competition with the NBA (they weren't about to start their own basketball league).
This case is often compared to one where the Chicago Board of Trade wanted to use the Dow Jones Index and wasn't permitted to do so because disallowing the use would encourage CBOT to make their own index.

I don't know exactly what data is being scraped here, but there is more to look at than just copyright law. The notion of "free" data isn't that important from what I remember of intellectual property class. Tons of sites make data and articles available to the public for free but that doesn't mean you can take them.

(IAAAL - I am almost a lawyer) but what I wrote above isn't necessarily good law everywhere any more, nor is it legal advice of any kind. It is just intended to be talking points to further the discussion.

Doofy · Apr 30, 2009, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I'm not a lawyer either, but if they actually have a patent on the format, then yes, it can be illegal to make a program that will read that format at all.

They have a copyright on the format automatically - they don't need a patent.

In fact, historically, you can't patent software - the only protection you have is in copyright... that is, the content and layout of your source code.

turtle777 · Apr 30, 2009, 12:41 PM

//got nothing.

But please, don't take this as legal advice of any kind.

-t

starman · Apr 30, 2009, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

To read, but not to re-use in a context of your personal design.

Google does not show you the entire page text in a different layout or context; they give you snippets based around your search term, and then link to the full page.

Let's take it one step further...

Can you sue Google for laying out your content on THEIR search page?

For those of you not familiar with WoW, there are TONS of web sites out there that scrape the armory data and make lists of which-guild-has-progressed-further sites. Now, what can't THEY get sent a C&D letter?

I'm just wondering if this is Blizzard strong-arming developers.

mattyb · Apr 30, 2009, 02:23 PM

This might help explain.

TETENAL · Apr 30, 2009, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Google does not show you the entire page text in a different layout or context; they give you snippets based around your search term, and then link to the full page.

Actually they do show entires pages in a different layout – if it's a PDF document or if you translate the document into another language.

Chuckit · Apr 30, 2009, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

To read, but not to re-use in a context of your personal design.

I don't think he's using their XML in his design. I assume he's reading the XML, parsing the information out of it and presenting that information in his own way. You can't copyright information, only a particular form of it. So, for example, Webster does not own the English language — only the wording that describes the English language in that particular dictionary.

Doofy · Apr 30, 2009, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I don't think he's using their XML in his design. I assume he's reading the XML, parsing the information out of it and presenting that information in his own way. You can't copyright information, only a particular form of it.

However, the reading of the XML and the parsing the information would probably stand up. We all copy data to our caches every time we read a page, for which we have an implied right to copy. The publisher could technically withdraw this right at any time.

goMac · Apr 30, 2009, 03:46 PM

I don't see why not. It's a string just like a book.

Takedown notices make sense if you think about someone building their own free game using Blizzard's XML data. They could build a new game with Blizzards items if the "but it's free!" legal argument holds.

starman · Apr 30, 2009, 03:57 PM

But in this case, there's no game, no financial gain. In fact, there are TONS of sites out there scraping data from the armory and yet this one free iPhone app gets noticed by Blizzard?

My app is still safe for the moment. No C&D yet.

Chuckit · Apr 30, 2009, 04:05 PM

I do think the Armory apps are possibly on the wrong side of things if they actually distribute data fresh from the Armory. Blizzard probably has its own app in development, which would be why it wants to kill the competition now.

goMac · Apr 30, 2009, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by starman

But in this case, there's no game, no financial gain. In fact, there are TONS of sites out there scraping data from the armory and yet this one free iPhone app gets noticed by Blizzard?

My app is still safe for the moment. No C&D yet.

As ChuckIt mentioned, it's potential financial damage because Blizzard might want to do their own app.