[johnpg]

Last night I proved that I was a geek among keeps by seeking out, downloading and watching the entire quicktime video of Steve Job's MWSF keynote. No, not the one from last month, the one from 2000. :-) As a switcher who bought my first Mac a year ago, I missed the introduction of Aqua and thought it would be fun to check it out. Anyhow, what I noticed was something that had always bothered me, the demos given during the keynotes show system performance that is substantially faster than that of the currently available fastest Mac. It hit home because Steve was giving a demo of what was DP3 or 4 (which were notoriously slow), yet it was resizing windows faster than Jaguar on my 867 MHz Powermac. All other interface elements seemed faster as well, except the genie effect appeared to drag a bit.

Anyhow, it's not just that one example, but it's with ALL of the demos I've seen during the various keynotes. The performance of the interface, launch times and iApps far exceeds any hardware that you can buy. Either they are cheating somehow with caching, faking the demos or they have some really fast tweaked out boxes they use.

Has this ever been discussed before? If you don't believe me, go check out some of the iApp demos, or OS X demos. I can't believe I'm the only one to notice this.

Cheers,
John

P.S. Not to go off topic but there were some good ideas in the DP3 (or was it 4) demo that never made it or only recently did. The Finder had search in the toolbar (now in Jaguar), they had single window application mode and a few other odds and ends that seemed promising. Interesting stuff.

[Adam Betts]

Well, they could have increased the memory priorities and cached all apps before using it for demo

[mrfrost]

I'm curious, what keynote are you talking about? I would also like to look at it again.

[Rickster]

He was resizing Preview windows of image files in that demo, wasn't he? A window whose contents can draw in one simple blit, like an image, has always resized a lot faster and smoother than one that has to draw a hundred little elements in every step of a resize (like a web page or Finder window). There are a few other ways in which Steve's demos tend not to load a machine as much as real-life work does, too.

But yeah, they cheat a bit for Stevenotes -- fastest Mac available, tons of RAM, etc. And repeated rehearsals have the side effect of "tuning" the VM system and disk cache to make future repetitions faster. It's also possible that a lot of these past keynotes were semi-cheated because they were showing unfinished software; as in, the only parts of Mac OS X that were really fully implemented by January 2000 were the ones Steve was going to show.

BTW, the search field in DP3 wasn't actually a search field. It was basically the same as the Go To Folder command in the current Finder, except you could also enter just a filename and it'd select it if it was in the window. Oh, and half the time it just seemed to be broken... did nothing.

[johnpg]

Thanks for the replies. Rickster, so I'm not crazy? I knew that they had to be doing something. The improved performance is evident in all the keynotes I've seen.

As for the specifics of DP4 features, I wouldn't know anything about that as I wasn't around to try them. I have read that DP4 and 10.0 were both very slow.

Mr_Frost, the keynote I was watching was MWSF 2000. I found it here: http://mod.rdlab.carnet.hr/hr/carnet...pple/mwsf2000/

Speaking of that, does anyone know where I might find Quicktime files for the other keynotes that are no longer on Apple's site? In particularly 2000 through the end of 2001 (both Macworld and WWDC). I was there for 2002.

Cheers,
John

[LeeG]

Newest possible DP mac, TONS of ram, and the occasional hardware hack.

I spoke with some apple folks at MWNY 1999 (original iBook intro), where Jobs shows the iBook connected to an external display - not an option on those machines - the folks said they jerry-rigged the machines to do it...

Lee

[SMacTech]

SJ must have been running an early prototype IBM 970 or a Mot G5. I am sure that when things didn't work right in his keynote that it was just a bug in the firmware and wasn't part of the cheating or deception you invision. Have you sat down and used one of the newest Macs to compare to the QT video? Resizing a window was faster in what app?

[ASIMO]

Wrong. It's versions of OS X on Intel running on the latest and greatest beige boxes, which, as we all know, are a hundred times more powerful than any Motocr'pola p'tato chip. And to spite you all, OS X on Intel (aka OSXi) shall never be released for public consumption.

[johnpg]

In case anyone thought otherwise I never was suggesting that they were using 970's or G5's or Intel processors. I wasn't asking if there was a conspiracy, just if anyone had noticed the speed and if so, why that might be. No need to get all Art Bell on me. :-)

I was at the Apple store this weekend and was playing with a dual 1.25GHz box. They didn't have any of the new ones. I've had a lot of hands on time with all the current hardware and the previous generation. I still think whatever they're using on stage is faster than anything we can buy. It's probably caching and ram as others have suggested, though.

Cheers,
John

[Superchicken]

they run em off Xserve clusters!
hahaha

the Power Book on stage... just to screw with your head. it's really a stack of 10 Dual processor Xserves, it's Steve's little way of looking at the fans and going my system's bigger than your's
hehehe

Nahh uhh yeah... they might have some over clocked dual processor chips in there thought, ya know with some really good cooling... I mean what does steve care if they're locked away in a closet or something. And they probably do use prerelease graphics cards and junk. Or they might even just plain be movies that they show that they just make look like it... who knows Steve could just be an awsome actor

[businezguy]

I used to think the same thing. I used to think that my Powermac dual 1 ghz was way slower then the demo the were playing. Of course, that was when I had 256 megs of ram. After upgrading to 1.25 gigs, I think my system runs pretty comparable to what I see in the keynotes from Steve Jobs.

[snotnose]

yeah you know the keynote apps are maxed out on everything

[ae86_16v]

Yeah, I've been looking for the old keynotes too. The Apple's stream is really bad quality...it could be because I am only on DSL.

[ShotgunEd]

Well you realise he's running versions of OSX without the debug code

[philzilla]

he's running it on an old PII. let's face it, it would still be faster...

[bstone]

Originally posted by ae86_16v:
Yeah, I've been looking for the old keynotes too. The Apple's stream is really bad quality...it could be because I am only on DSL.

I am on a University connection using "Internet 2" lines. The quality was TERRIBLE on the 3 Macs we had it running on.

Brad

[SirCastor]

I dunno how to do it, but is it possile that they load all the apps onto a RAM disk? Thusly resulting in incredible speed?

[ae86_16v]

Originally posted by bstone:
I am on a University connection using "Internet 2" lines. The quality was TERRIBLE on the 3 Macs we had it running on.

Brad

I wonder why it is so bad...is there anyway to clean it up? It shouldn't matter the browsers that we are using...does it?

[trusted_content]

Maybe its OS X Server.

I've been running server for a day now; everything is easily twice as fast.

[angelmb]

Originally posted by trusted_content:
Maybe its OS X Server.

I've been running server for a day now; everything is easily twice as fast.

is that true ? :o :o Which Mac you have?

please don�t offense, I am really asking you, if you read some others posting about conspirancy et al... look my signature

so typical question, soft I have on Jag, runs on X Server?

[stew]

Probably mostly perception. What makes a system feel fast or slow is the tiny delay between pressing a key or button and the reaction of the system to it. Now since you don't actually see Mr. Jobs typing or clicking key for key, you don't notice any of that lag when watching the keynote.
Lauch times etc appear shorter to you because Mr. Jobs is talking to you, distracting you from the wait.

[trusted_content]

Originally posted by angelmb:
is that true ? :o :o Which Mac you have?

please don�t offense, I am really asking you, if you read some others posting about conspirancy et al... look my signature

so typical question, soft I have on Jag, runs on X Server?

that was my question as well

i have an iMac fp 17" (800 g4)
i had a partition that still had 10.1.5 on it that i didnt need anymore, so i wiped it and installed a copy of server that i had...... obtained

so far, the driver for my sound card works, safari works, iTunes works (none of these things included)... i have a feeling its pretty much the same OS with a lot nicer admin tools, and a bunch of **** stripped out for performance (which is why it seems to be so fast, perhaps?)

[LeeG]

I had a great MP4 stream for the last keynote, on my G4/500AGP with a DSL connection, I watched the whole thing live, and it looked great. I would blame problems on network, not the apple stream...
Lee

[Toyin]

I don't think that SJ is using any secret hardware or software tricks during his presentations. He probably uses the fastest desktops with RAM maximized.

I remember in the begining with the PB, 10.0, and 10.1 that many times he would have applications already running. Rarely did he actually launch an app unless it was preview or some other simple app. He still avoids the painfully slow things like resizing iPhoto or iMovie. It's all just well rehearsed.

[gregpins]

I think he's actually running OS 9 with an Aqua theme. No way 10 could be that fast. :-)

[ambush]

Originally posted by ShotgunEd:
Well you realise he's running versions of OSX without the debug code

YEZ, my sources confirm he was running OSX 10.2 6X89 ( which is a build w/o debug code ) at the time of the keynote.



Do you even know what IS debug code? Cause I don't know. It's just a myth, i think

[andreas_g4]

Originally posted by gregpins:
I think he's actually running OS 9 with an Aqua theme. No way 10 could be that fast. :-)

Good one!


As most mentioned before, I think they just use maxed out hardware.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by ambush:
YEZ, my sources confirm he was running OSX 10.2 6X89 ( which is a build w/o debug code ) at the time of the keynote.



Do you even know what IS debug code? Cause I don't know. It's just a myth, i think

ROTFL. Don't you get sarcasm?

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by trusted_content:
that was my question as well

i have an iMac fp 17" (800 g4)
i had a partition that still had 10.1.5 on it that i didnt need anymore, so i wiped it and installed a copy of server that i had...... obtained

so far, the driver for my sound card works, safari works, iTunes works (none of these things included)... i have a feeling its pretty much the same OS with a lot nicer admin tools, and a bunch of **** stripped out for performance (which is why it seems to be so fast, perhaps?)

Nope. It's because you did a reinstall. OSX Server is actually tuned more towards server tasks then GUI tasks (big surprise). Other than a few slightly different settings and some extra programs, it's the same OS. Reinstalling always makes OSX faster.

[Nebagakid]

Well, he never goes to "About this Mac" so he could be lying to us... really.....

But, it is probably a maxed out in everyway, with stuff cached and stuff like that.

[Mediaman_12]

It will be a combination of the fastest Mac (possibily Overclocked, it only has to run for about 2 hours max, they are the ultimate experts with this hardware after all) maxed out RAM and the rest is smoke & mirrors. Have apps already launched, possibly running on multiple Mac's do one thing on one while another is doing something else, a simple KVM switch is all that would take. Talk at the same time as something that may lag a bit is going on, to distract. With the amount of practice and rehearsals Steve must do, it's easy.

[ambush]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
ROTFL. Don't you get sarcasm?

Yes I do just joking and poking

[trusted_content]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
Nope. It's because you did a reinstall. OSX Server is actually tuned more towards server tasks then GUI tasks (big surprise). Other than a few slightly different settings and some extra programs, it's the same OS. Reinstalling always makes OSX faster.

I'm sure the reinstall is part of the reason...

But the fact that server is tuned more for server apps means not as much GUI overload cruft slowing down my box; graphics are definitely faster IMHO. This may become my primary OS.

[Gul Banana]

It's just that OS X really is that fast on modern hardware. We've got a dual 1 GHz machine with 768 MB of RAM, which blazes through most tasks.. and of course Steve will have been using faster than that in the last couple of keynotes. I think Apple's major mistake with respect to X's speed was not requiring a G4.. then again, they would have had to upgrade the iBooks, which they still haven't done now. And it does run acceptably on faster G3s with good video cards.. but it's never going to be as fast as on a newer machine.

[Sarc]

the following post is just my humble opinion,

fact:
Mac OS X is a stripped down (believe it or not) version of ... OS X Server !

some features of OS X server include daemons for all the cool admin apps.
more flexible GUI config options for the different services (for instance in Mac OS X 'client' apache is set to forbid folder listing, in Server you get the option)
it includes more server apps. such as QuickTime Straming Server and Quicktime broadcaster, stuff like that.
it also includes a somewhat cool daemon called watchdog, and his job is to keep services alive and in the even of a complete system failure, restart the machine.

I have used it many, many hours while working on servers and yes, it may feel faster, but a big part of that is because usually servers are clean installs, then you configure them, and then forget about them (except for reading security logs and such, but that's not done via GUI).
secondly, people's OS X is bloated. for isntance I have on my menubar 7 menu extras appart from the current Time. All of this stuff causes OS X to go slower.
and being honest, with day-to-day usage, performance of OS X decays. not as much as windows does, but still it's noticeable.

don't get me wrong, I like OS X Server =, and some time ago I was thinking of making it my primary OS, but that mofo ARENA talked me out of it that time, and then I got to use Server myself and saw that I didn't need it in my home Mac.

and get this straight ... there's virtually anything that you can do in Server and you can't in 'client'. it will take you a bit longer because of the lack of GUI's, but you can do anything.

lastly.
OS X Server costs 500 USD, and that's the 10 client version, unlimited is 999 USD.
obviously some people here got it through illegal means.
just FYI, OS X Server is 5CD's.
and just a tip it does copyright protection not upon installation or usage, but if you happen to stumble on the net with a copy of OS X server with the same serial it will disable the administration daemon and you won't be able to connect through Server Admin.

hope it this helps, and hope you endure through the long post

[Cipher13]

OSX Client can't be compared to OSX Server.

Sure they can both do the same things, in theory, as you say - and, as you say, OSX Server allows you to do things a little quicker.

Well, OSX Server is meant for mass-use. Not a home network. A large-scale network.

What takes 10 seconds on OSX Server on a home network may take 20 minutes on OSX Client on a home network. Sure.

The point is... what may take an hour on OSX Server in large-scale environment may take weeks on OSX Client.

Apple has no need to remove features from Client nor add them to Server.

The point of Server is to make configuration (mostly user) en masse less painful; with the added bonus of quick daemon configuration.

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by Sarc:
the following post is just my humble opinion,
All of this stuff causes OS X to go slower.
and being honest, with day-to-day usage, performance of OS X decays. not as much as windows does, but still it's noticeable.

I have had uptime in excess of 45 days and never noticed a lag in performance. Possibly your cron jobs never run and you have huge log files. Obviously YMMV.

[SMacTech]

Originally posted by Cipher13:

What takes 10 seconds on OSX Server on a home network may take 20 minutes on OSX Client on a home network. Sure.

The point is... what may take an hour on OSX Server in large-scale environment may take weeks on OSX Client.

Can you explain what you are talking about here with some examples?

[Sarc]

Originally posted by SMacTech:
Can you explain what you are talking about here with some examples?

try making a WebDAV domain in OS X 'client' ... it will take you a couple of hours at least. In 'server' takes you like 10 minutes.

try making a virtual domain in the 'client's' Apache, you'll have to go through the Apache config file making changes.
in server you have a GUI for managing domains.

stuff like that.

if you notice, it's stuff most people would never use at home, even if they can run office and phostoshop in 'X server' it's not actually useful to have it at home over 'client'.

[dampeoples]

I do not think there is any trickery involved. The original poster is comparing it to his 867PM, whereas Steve was probably using at least the dual1.42 with 2GB of RAM, that's what three times the power or so? Sure I see his stuff as faster, but I'm smart enough to realize that i'm sporting a 700MHz G3, and there will be performance differences.

[johnpg]

Originally posted by dampeoples:
I do not think there is any trickery involved. The original poster is comparing it to his 867PM, whereas Steve was probably using at least the dual1.42 with 2GB of RAM, that's what three times the power or so? Sure I see his stuff as faster, but I'm smart enough to realize that i'm sporting a 700MHz G3, and there will be performance differences.

No, that's not the case. I was not talking about this last keynote, I meant really all demos of OS X and apps for the last several years. You guys really should go back and watch some of the demos. They are, without doubt, faster than real world hardware performance. By a lot. I don't think there's a conspiracy or anything, I was just wondering why no one had brought that up, and if anyone might have known why. I have used, at length, up to a 1.25 dual Powermac. I am aware of how fast those machines are. There are no 1.4's out yet, so none of us outside of Apple can comment on them.

Go back and look at the demo for iCal. We know how slow that was in the first version. It's not slow at all in the demo. Same thing is true for iPhoto, Sherlock, Jaguar, etc.

I'm guessing it's a combination of caching, ram, the fastest available hardware and good rehearsals.

John

[OpenStep]

Possible to "renice" the apps Steve Jobs is gonna run to speed things up during the keynote?

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by stew:
Probably mostly perception. What makes a system feel fast or slow is the tiny delay between pressing a key or button and the reaction of the system to it. Now since you don't actually see Mr. Jobs typing or clicking key for key, you don't notice any of that lag when watching the keynote.
Lauch times etc appear shorter to you because Mr. Jobs is talking to you, distracting you from the wait.

Responsiveness matters. On many systems, OS X has this annoying little lag between mouse/key down and something actually happening, something in the 20 - 40 ms range. Good UI design mandates less than 10 ms, which you usually get on a comparable windows system

OS X is not slow, but the slight unresponsiveness just makes it feel like... Jell-O instead of Aqua.

Of course, many people don't 'operate' their OS that fast, so it might not matter to a majority - they won't notice, or be bothered.

Increasing processor, bus and GPU speeds , combined with tweaks to the OS will eventually make it... snappy

J

[libraryguy]

Originally posted by LeeG:
I had a great MP4 stream for the last keynote, on my G4/500AGP with a DSL connection, I watched the whole thing live, and it looked great. I would blame problems on network, not the apple stream...
Lee

I watched the last keynote via DSL from SBC...and the quality was great for me...this last keynote stream was the best I've seen...almost no freezes or loss of video/audio. I used to be connected via our university high speed internet which was much faster than my current line and I remember having all sorts of problems when they first started streaming keynotes.

[Anomalous]

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
It's just that OS X really is that fast on modern hardware. We've got a dual 1 GHz machine with 768 MB of RAM, which blazes through most tasks.. and of course Steve will have been using faster than that in the last couple of keynotes. I think Apple's major mistake with respect to X's speed was not requiring a G4.. then again, they would have had to upgrade the iBooks, which they still haven't done now. And it does run acceptably on faster G3s with good video cards.. but it's never going to be as fast as on a newer machine.

I hope you are not serious - that would upset legions of G3 users (i.e., me ).