[:XI:]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

One post office outside London. If that's happening outside London, you can be pretty sure that the problem is much worse in London.

Here's a page for a London council.
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/index.htm
Check the languages on the right. Note how English isn't the top one.

The first one "Shqip" is Albanian, kind of makes that list look like it's alphabetical doesn't it?

[Oisín]

^ Also, English has ID #1, while Shqip/Albanian has ID #2, French is #3, etc.

The real question here is why there’s no number four. And even more puzzlingly, why there is a number f**e.

[subego]

If the page is already in English, why is "English" even on the list?

And if it's some coding issue, as the default, shouldn't English be at the bottom?

[moonmonkey]

I still think that website is part of some newfangled liberal anti white conspiracy.
Either that or its just badly designed.

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

These are both kebabs, one is a shish kebab, one is a döner kebab. Neither of these are british things.

Right, they are both turkish. However we have had shish-kebob, spelled with an o, in the states for decades. The döner kabab as we think of it came from germany, made it's way to the UK and then on through the commonwealth in more recent years.

My point was that linguistically these appeared separately in time, space, and culture. The fact that they are pronounced differently is to be expected.

When you actually listen to this word as spoken by a Turk it sounds like "bob". In both German and Turkish that sound is represented with the a character. In the US we use an o.

The british pronunciation seems to come from interpretation of the written word on signs and not from hearing it said by a native.

So a better question is, why do british people pronounce foreign words incorrectly?

An example: jaguar - it's a spanish spelling of an central american beast. The locals say it "jag-wahr". So why do the british say jag-U-wah? My guess is lingering contempt over the Armada.

Of course we do it too - and a good example is actually the greek version of the same sandwich. The Gyro. People here say "jyro" and then get corrected by a passing pedant who tells them it's actually "yeero".

As we shouldn't really be eating this stuff anyway I'd ask "who gives a rat's *ss", but as doner kebab is actually made from rat's *ss there is no need.

[moonmonkey]

Yes, but its kebab not kabob.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Gavin 

When you actually listen to this word as spoken by a Turk it sounds like "bob".

Ehh, no. In Turkish, it’s a very clear [a] sound, just like in German. In British English, it has been euphonically fronted to [æ]. In the US, it’s been euphonically backed to [ɔ]. Turkish in itself doesn’t have [ɔ].

In Arabic, where the word ‘kebab’ (though of course neither ‘shish’ [from Turkish şiş] nor ‘doner’ [from Turkish döner]) comes from, it’s a lot closer to the open o sound in English, as it’s often pronounced as an [ɑ:].

And when you say ‘shish kebab’ (or ‘shish kabob’) in English, it’s not from Turkish, anyways, but from Armenian. The Turkish form is şiş kebap. The Armenians had already borrowed kebāb from some Iranian/Persian dialect, so they already had that word; they just added the Turkish loan word şiş/shish. The Turks borrowed kebap from the Iranian/Persian language, too, but modified it for Turkish phonotactics to kebap.

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Ehh, no. In Turkish, it’s a very clear [a] sound, just like in German. In British English, it has been euphonically fronted to [æ]. In the US, it’s been euphonically backed to [ɔ]. Turkish in itself doesn’t have [ɔ].

In american english the o in bob is close enough to the a in german (as in Tag) that most americans will not hear a difference, hence the spelling. o in bob sounds like a in father.

I think we agree that american Kebob is closer to the original sound than british kebab. (a as in cat)

Yes, but its kebab not kabob.

depends on where you are from:
http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-..._kabob,FF.html

I could just as easily say it's color not colour.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Gavin 

I think we agree that american Kebob is closer to the original sound than british kebab. (a as in cat)

Doubtful, if you're talking about the British "a as in cat".

The British "cat" is closer to the German/Turkish "a" than the American "cat" is.

Which leaves the second vowel in "kebab" squarely half-way between American "kabob" and British "kebab".

[paul w]

You f*ckers - now I'm hungry. And it's not easy finding a good doner around here.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Gavin 

I could just as easily say it's color not colour.

That's just obviously wrong, you can't make up nonsense words like "color" to justify an argument.

[Gavin]

ha ha

OK you win

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by paul w 

You f*ckers - now I'm hungry. And it's not easy finding a good doner around here.

haha